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Dress code discussion (a lost thread)

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MC Slim JB Jan 9, 2009 09:41 PM

Mods moved this post to Not About Food from the Boston board, only it never arrived (broken link).. Since I can still find my post in my "All Activity" page, I'm reposting here. The original post was here: http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/581612 , from which a side discussion evolved about differences in dress sense on either side of Boston's Charles River, which led to a discussion of declining standards of appropriate dress in American fine-dining restaurants. At some point, I said:

"I agree: dress is culture. (Actually, the line I like, can't remember whose now, is that culture is your mother's cooking. Pollan, maybe?) What surprised me is how quickly the line moved on American dress sense in fine-dining restaurants, especially at five-star US hotels. The old Ritz-Carlton in Boston used to insist on a jacket in its dining room and its bar as recently as a few years ago. They kept a couple of size-48 navy blazers on hand for the short-sighted to wear. Not long before it was sold, jeans became okay in the bar (still true at successor Taj), I imagine to the horror of some of the old servers. "Jacket required" has become a very laxly-enforced "jacket suggested" at the few places that try, and certainly no one can afford to turn away the business anymore.

I'm going to hold the line on batting an eyelash at ballcaps in the dining room.

Bruni had an interesting, even-handed take on this subject last year: http://dinersjournal.blogs.nytimes.co...

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  1. Karl S Jan 10, 2009 07:59 AM

    Even formal has become optional at many events listed as formal - suits are readily accepted in lieu of black tie (let alone white tie, which I prefer but haven't worn in 26 years). Despite the longings of the clothing industry that a business downturn will mark a revival of formality, I have to say that the evidence is more wishful than real.

    The jacket-and-tie look represented the 75 years of the Great World War (1914-1990). It was remarkably fixed for a long time. The century before it had gradual change throughout (before that, men's fashion change very frequently), and I suspect the 75-year stasis will be followed by a compensatory period of extended flux in fashion.

    Jeans themselves are being superceded by stretchwear (preferably, clean black), which have many practical advantages despite their utter lack of fashion and which when neat I would happily encounter over many types of jeans these days.

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    1. re: Karl S
      c oliver Jan 11, 2009 07:53 PM

      But, Karl S, they're talking about restaurant wear. Were there ever --- in the last 100 years or so --- restaurants where black tie was expected? (Not that YOU remember that far back!) And I agree that in a "nicer" restaurant, I hate to see jeans and as c'lady said, I don't care what they cost.

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    2. cassoulady Jan 10, 2009 08:40 AM

      I know a lot of my women friends think that expensive jeans somehow are no longer jeans but dressy clothes. I think even if jeans are 300 dollars, they are still jeans.

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      1. re: cassoulady
        viperlush Jan 11, 2009 08:51 AM

        Part of that might be because clubs/bars with dress codes will say " No jeans, except designer". Doesn't mean that your women friends are always right or always wrong.

        I personally don't care what the dress code is, we just wear what we want (jeans only when stated casual). When it comes to other patrons I'm bothered more by perfume and other fragrances than clothing.

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        1. re: viperlush
          Caralien Jan 11, 2009 09:40 AM

          When it comes to clubs/bars, most of the posted rules (no tank tops, jeans...) aren't really enforced when it comes to females...

          Jeans are still jeans, regardless of price.

          The only time we had a dress code strictly enforced was on our honeymoon, on the QE2. Once while we were still in the bar and my husband was wearing shorts, a server came by at 6:03 to politely let us know that my husband's attire was no longer appropriate at that hour. It was the second week of the cruise and we knew the rules, but were curious as to whether or not they would be enforced.

          Some places do enforce the jacket policy, but not ties so much anymore.

          In my experience, the east coast is still more formal than the west coast. Formal in California doesn't exclude wearing shorts and flip-flops, weddings included (suit for the church, however, with a quick change for the reception).

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          1. re: Caralien
            c oliver Jan 11, 2009 07:58 PM

            Oh, Caralien, I really have to disagree with you on your final paragraph. Formal never would include shorts and flip-flops on the left coast. Please don't toss that out :) And our daughters both married in Calif. and they and their husbands remained beautifully dressed the entire time. We're not TOTAL savages out here :)

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            1. re: c oliver
              Caralien Jan 12, 2009 09:17 AM

              I was referring to my uncles and those of their generation (boomers), raised in Southern California. My husband and I (as well as cousins, sister, and their spouses) remained in formal dress during our weddings (Newport Beach, Ukiah, Monterey, San Diego, Santa Rosa...) but we never got a photo of all four of the "boys" in their suits (the last time all 4 were in suits--and photographed--was at the youngest's wedding in the 60's).

              Don't get me wrong, there's nothing savage about being comfortable. Even I took off my Manolo's and wore flip flops under my dress after the ceremony!

              RE: jeans/denim: I have a denim suit from Vera Wang. It's nice, cute, and trendy. But I would never wear it to something formal, or an important meeting.

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          2. re: viperlush
            im_nomad Jan 11, 2009 09:51 AM

            lol, i'd never heard of that one re: designer jeans before. Are designer jeans REALLY that much more aesthetically pleasing than say, a pair that cost $100 ? That one takes the cake, I gotta say.

            On the topic of jeans though, there are jeans, and there are jeans. Denim is, after all, just a fabric, and I've seen plenty of trouser style jeans that are just as dressy or in some cases, dressier, than some pants i've seen.

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            1. re: viperlush
              g
              givemecarbs Jan 11, 2009 06:53 PM

              Agree about the perfume and men's cologne viperlush.

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              1. re: viperlush
                c oliver Jan 11, 2009 07:54 PM

                Well, a club/bar is different than a fine dining establishment.

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                1. re: c oliver
                  viperlush Jan 12, 2009 04:22 AM

                  Obviously, I was just giving cassoulady a possible reason why her women friends might think that expensive jeans= dressy clothes.

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                  1. re: c oliver
                    cassoulady Jan 12, 2009 04:57 AM

                    My mother, who is now almost 80, always referred to "classic casual" when instructing me and my siblings as to what to wear. To her, this meant a skirt and a blouse and heels for the girls, and a nice pants and a dress shirt and a sport coat for the boys. When I was younger, I thought this was terribly uncool. Now, of course, when I am going out, I often find myself in a skirt and a blouse when I am not sure where we are going exactly. ha ha

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                    1. re: cassoulady
                      viperlush Jan 12, 2009 05:27 AM

                      That's what my mother use to say to us (except for the coat) when we didn't know what to wear. Isn't that so much easier to do that in the summertime than the winter? When it is warm my traditional wear is skirt and top or dress, but when it's cold (right now) I clinging to my jeans and sweaters.

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                      1. re: viperlush
                        c oliver Jan 12, 2009 07:00 AM

                        In winter when traveling I always have a pair of black trousers/slacks. They go with everything, can be worn multiple times and aren't jeans. When not traveling, it's really easy to leave the jeans at home for dressier venues.

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                        1. re: c oliver
                          cassoulady Jan 12, 2009 07:22 AM

                          my mom would be proud! ha ha.

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                          1. re: c oliver
                            viperlush Jan 12, 2009 07:43 AM

                            And it's easier to just avoid dressier venues all together when the weather inspires casual attire.

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                            1. re: viperlush
                              c oliver Jan 12, 2009 07:48 AM

                              Well, I will admit that when there's a foot (or two or three) of snow on the ground, I tend towards casual attire. After all, why wear nice trousers with big, clunky snow boots? Otherwise, how/why would weather "inspire" casual attire. If one is really cold, wool is warmer than denim.

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                              1. re: c oliver
                                viperlush Jan 12, 2009 08:16 AM

                                Exactly. Cold feet/snow= desire to wear snow boots and salt/sand on sidewalks. I've seen people change shoes in the restaurant, but I think it's awkward to carry them. And I would prefer to get my jeans dirty than nicer clothing (I walk everywhere).

                                Really cold= eat in or go to neighborhood bar for dinner.

                                Being cold makes me want to bundle up and feel comfortable. Jeans are comfortable, sweaters cozy, and boots warm. Likewise in the summer I hate feeling hot and wear as little as possible (while remaining decent). So skirts and dresses are more comfortable and cute shoes are possible.

                                And I'm sure that if I were male I would feel the opposite and prefer dressy in the winter and casual in the summer.

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                2. roxlet Jan 12, 2009 05:53 AM

                  My husband and I went to dinner at Mario Batali's highly over-rated but extremely luxe restaurant Del Posto last summer, and despite the extremely high level of service (the one good thing) and expensive ambiance, people thought that it was OK to dress as if they had just come in from a beach volleyball game. Don't look at me when I'm around the house -- I'm as much of a slob as the next person -- but what people seem to lack these days is a sense of occasion. You go to a nice restaurant, and you get a little dolled up. The corner deli is not a place for a $500 meal, and I feel that it denigrates the experience of fine dining to be sitting with a bunch of yahoos in tank tops and baseball caps blabbing on cell phones.

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                  1. re: roxlet
                    BobB Jan 12, 2009 07:53 AM

                    So sad, so true. At least here in a part of the country that gets cold in winter we don't have to look at shorts and flip-flops in fine restaurants for at least part of the year. Doesn't help with the baseball caps and cell phones though.

                    This topic was pretty well hashed out on a Table Manners column a while back: http://www.chow.com/stories/11044

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                    1. re: roxlet
                      jgg13 Jan 12, 2009 12:31 PM

                      Why should I care what you think of how I look? Unless you want to pay for my meal, I shouldn't need to care what you think of me. I need to care about:
                      a) Myself
                      b) My immediate dining companions

                      If I don't happen to see the point in comboing fancy clothes with high end food, why should I have to?

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                      1. re: jgg13
                        c oliver Jan 12, 2009 12:38 PM

                        Hey, alanbarnes, is this the type of person you were referring to?

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                        1. re: c oliver
                          jgg13 Jan 12, 2009 12:49 PM

                          Eh, fair enough, if that's what you want to think.

                          I personally don't see the need to dress in archaic clothing in order to enjoy a meal. As long as I'm not shouting or otherwise being disruptive, it should matter to anyone else what I'm wearing either.

                          Dress codes (both official and unofficial, and I'm not just talking about fancy clothes, sometimes the 'dress code' requires very particular non-fancy clothes) have always struck me as being excessively pretentious. If what someone else is wearing really bothers one that much, there's a problem IMO.

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                        2. re: jgg13
                          BobB Jan 12, 2009 01:17 PM

                          Why should you care what impression you make on others around you? Let me see if I can phrase this delicately enough not to start a flame war that would soon be deleted.

                          You are a member of society, at least once you venture outside your front door (what you do INSIDE your own home is entirely your own business). As such, you have a responsibility to consider the feelings of those around you. This is the very essence of manners - and if you can't accept this point, then you might as well stop reading now because nothing else I say will mean anything to you.

                          While a great barbecue joint and a well-run fine dining establishment both provide wonderful food, one of the key differences between them is the aesthetic they are attempting to provide for their patrons. Not for nothing do such restaurants spend large sums of money on their linens, glassware, silver and china, not to mention the general furnishings of the room. This is to set a tone that enhances the total multi-sensory dining experience.

                          When we go to such establishments, we become part of that experience, like it or not, and as such it behooves us to at least attempt to add to, not detract from, the overall aesthetic. I'm not talking about suits and ties here - as has been mentioned above, very few places these days go so far as to require them. I'm simply talking about dressing well, making an effort, and at a minimum avoiding such inappropriate garb as flip-flops and torn T-shirts.

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                          1. re: BobB
                            jgg13 Jan 12, 2009 03:17 PM

                            I can understand physical distractions, noise, etc. But I simply refuse to accept that certain modes of dress should be required. If someone wants to look like a dufus, that's up to them - I don't have to look at them if it somehow offends me. This is different than someone being loud - I can't avoid but hearing them. This is also different than some form of physical molestation - the couple that lets their kid run around, or the person that's somehow bumping into you, etc.

                            I don't know about you, but I don't feel the need to look around and worry about what everyone else is wearing, I don't particularly care nor do I understand those that do care. If for some reason I do happen to notice what someone is dressed like and they are indeed looking like a dufus, out of place, etc - well, I might think less of them (I try not to, but it is tough to always avoid obviously) but I don't let it somehow offend me.

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                            1. re: jgg13
                              c oliver Jan 12, 2009 03:21 PM

                              Ya know, I don't think it's a matter of offending. Rather like BobB said (way better than I can), the aethestics are part of the dining experience. Does a dufus :) make the food not taste good? Of course, not. But having a dining room full of nicely dressed people enhances the experience just like the lighting, wine glasses etc.

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                            2. re: BobB
                              roxlet Jan 12, 2009 05:22 PM

                              I'm with you, BobB. There is a complete aesthetic experience when you dine at a restaurant that has created an ambience of elegance. Here's the thing: it's fun to feel like you are part of something -- almost like being in a play -- that enhances the experience of fine dining.

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                              1. re: roxlet
                                jgg13 Jan 12, 2009 05:34 PM

                                "it's fun to feel like you are part of something"

                                I've heard that argument regarding 'dress up' type of stuff for ever and ever (again, not just talking formal wear, e.g. the same argument is made going to a goth dance night!) and I just don't get it. I can't say that I ever once said to myself, "Self, wow, it is really cool that I dressed according to some standard because other people would otherwise judge me, and now I feel like I'm part of something".

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                                1. re: jgg13
                                  BobB Jan 13, 2009 04:43 AM

                                  Yet, as you yourself said above, "If for some reason I do happen to notice what someone is dressed like and they are indeed looking like a dufus, out of place, etc - well, I might think less of them (I try not to, but it is tough to always avoid obviously)..."

                                  I think that in your heart you know that dress matters, and that there is a difference between elegance and boorishness. As for "I don't have to look at them if it somehow offends me," that's patently absurd. You don't have to stare at them (and shouldn't), but of course you notice them, and they thus affect your experience. You don't have magic vision that allows you to see only those aspects of the room that you choose.

                                  It's not a question of dressing "according to some standard," it's a question of dressing so as to enhance the experience, for others as well as yourself. Taking your rightful place in society, as it were.

                                  One of my all-time favorite New Yorker cartoons shows a middle-aged, balding man in black tie entering a ballroom full of elegantly-dressed couples, and the thought bubble over his head reads, "Omigod, grownups!" The joy of dressing well is part of being an adult - a stage of life that all too many Americans never seem to reach.

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                                  1. re: jgg13
                                    OCAnn Jan 13, 2009 11:01 AM

                                    Is/was your wedding dressed "come as you are"?

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                                    1. re: OCAnn
                                      jgg13 Jan 13, 2009 11:02 AM

                                      Not married (don't particularly care to be married), but the long-term gf knows that I would strongly perfer for it to be casual if it happened, yes.

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                                      1. re: jgg13
                                        OCAnn Jan 13, 2009 11:21 AM

                                        And it wouldn't bother you if your guests are dressed as they wish, without considering the event, the surroundings? How about the beer-drinking uncle who wears a Coors shirt too small to cover his entire belly, the friend who brings a gf who dresses too provocatively, the nephew who wears his pants too low, exposing his undies & his ball cap sideways?

                                        Just playing the devils advocate. I think your bride would care. You could claim that it's YOUR event or that it's YOUR money paying for their meals, but in the end, they'll claim "freedom of expression". I think there's a time & place for certain attire....

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                                        1. re: OCAnn
                                          jgg13 Jan 13, 2009 11:36 AM

                                          Honestly, I wouldn't care. But to be clear,I think that weddings & marriage are stupid - so your attempt to back me in a corner can't possibly succeed here :)

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                                          1. re: jgg13
                                            Caralien Jan 13, 2009 12:04 PM

                                            You might think differently if you ever decided to get married. That said, everyone's entitled to their own opinions and dress codes. It would certainly be silly to wear jeans, a suit, baseball caps, or a bikini to a Renaissance Faire, Star Wars, or Pirate themed wedding or event.

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                                            1. re: Caralien
                                              jgg13 Jan 13, 2009 12:07 PM

                                              "You might think differently if you ever decided to get married"

                                              The only reason that I'd be getting married is that I feel like I absolutely need to in order to keep a partner that I don't want to lose (I've parted ways w/ others before due to them needing 'marriage'). As such, I can't imagine that I'd care very much what people do because I think all of the standard pomp & circumstance is annoying.

                                              "It would certainly be silly to wear jeans, a suit, baseball caps, or a bikini to a Renaissance Faire or Star Wars wedding or event."

                                              That's why I mentioned earlier that I never particularly liked dress codes even when not talking about formal wear. A specific example is the now defunct Manray nightclub in Cambridge,MA but your Star Wars example is a good one as well.

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                          2. alanbarnes Jan 12, 2009 08:34 AM

                            Maybe it's just me, but dress codes strike me as unnecessarily elitist and exclusionary. They seem intended to establish an us-versus-them mentality in staff and patrons.

                            That's not to say that I'm a fan of slovenliness. If I'm going out to dinner at a fine-dining establishment, I'll put on a jacket every time. But there's a big difference between choosing to wear a jacket and being told to do so (or, worse yet, being offered a "house" jacket that brands the wearer as an outsider).

                            As to other patrons, I couldn't care less what they wear. Yes, it would be nice if everyone in a restaurant (better yet, everyone out in public) was couth in both dress and behavior, but putting a boor in a jacket doesn't change the fact that the wearer is a boor. I'd far rather suffer the sight of a man's shirt sleeves than be subjected to an overbearing monologue from the next table.

                            Wearing appropriate attire is part of good manners, but it's such a small part that IMHO it's nearly irrelevant. I'd venture to guess that the public behavior of today's typical American is significantly worse than it was in years past, but anyone who believes that a dress code will fix that problem is seriously delusional.

                            Of course, one can attempt to surround oneself with people who are reasonably well-behaved. The loudmouth who wears an aloha shirt to dinner probably won't receive an invitation to join an exclusive private club. But the very nature of public venues is that they are open to all comers. A restaurant or bar that conditions admission on whether a man is wearing a jacket seems to me to be engaging in fairly arbitrary and overtly elitist discrimination.

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                            1. re: alanbarnes
                              thew Jan 12, 2009 08:49 AM

                              i was with you most of the way through alan, though i rarely wear a jacket to dinner, myself, even at "nicer places", up until this: "...the public behavior of today's typical American is significantly worse than it was in years past...."

                              it is not worse, unless the rules of the past have some absolute hold on behavior in the present. what is happening is that the rules are changing, and what may have once been considered "bad" behavior is not that way anymore. And seeing as i happily accepted the changes that let women wear short skirts, instead of hide their ankles, and the changes that allow me to not wear a suit and tie and hat in public at all times, i will accept these changes as well.

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                              1. re: thew
                                alanbarnes Jan 12, 2009 09:01 AM

                                My opinion that public behavior has deteriorated has almost nothing to do with the way people dress; as I indicated, I think that clothing is such a small part of etiquette as to be nearly irrelevant. Rather, I firmly believe that people are more self-centered, less considerate, and just plain angrier and ruder than they used to be.

                                I'm all for accepting evolution in the rules of etiquette. And if that means that there are very few restaurants where I feel the need to wear a jacket, I'll go further than just accepting those changes - I'll embrace them. But if the latest trend is that it's okay to be an a$$hole to everyone around you, I have a problem with that.

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                              2. re: alanbarnes
                                k
                                KTinNYC Jan 12, 2009 09:02 AM

                                I'll have to disagree with you on this one Alan. There are very few restaurants left that require jackets in Manhattan, you can probably count them on one and and they are all pricey. If you can afford a meal in these establishments than you can certainly afford to go out and buy a nice sports jacket. A very respectable sports jacket can be had for less than $75 and can last a wearer for years.

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                                1. re: KTinNYC
                                  alanbarnes Jan 12, 2009 09:19 AM

                                  I don't doubt that anybody who can afford a meal at Le Bernardin can afford a sport coat. The exclusionary practices I have a problem with aren't based on means, they're based on those who are "in" versus those who are "out."

                                  Maybe it's just psychological scarring from my past. Many years ago, I worked for a firm where business casual was acceptable but a few hyperaggressive individuals wore power suits every day. One of their favorite things to do was to invite a casually-dressed new hire out for drinks after work; they'd take him to a place that prohibited men in shirtsleeves, then derive no end of amusement when the new guy donned the "house jacket," a huge monstrosity that looked as though it had been stitched together from plaid carpeting.

                                  Of course the new guy had a closet full of suits at home, he just opted to wear a sport shirt that day - a decision that was completely consistent with the dress code imposed by management. The point was to humiliate the guy, not because he didn't own a jacket, but because he didn't know it would be required. And that bugs me.

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                                  1. re: alanbarnes
                                    Caralien Jan 12, 2009 09:37 AM

                                    Proving yet again that even properly dressed people can have the manners of a goat.

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                                    1. re: alanbarnes
                                      k
                                      KTinNYC Jan 12, 2009 09:40 AM

                                      I think it is psychological scarring on your part. Your co-workers were bullies and if it wasn't bringing a new co-worker to an establishment where they knew he was under-dressed they would have done something else to humiliate him.

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                                      1. re: alanbarnes
                                        t
                                        taos Jan 12, 2009 05:28 PM

                                        I wouldn't hold a couple of buffoon's bad behavior as a reason against dressing properly at a restaurant. Hopefully, your scars have healed.

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                                        1. re: alanbarnes
                                          Up With Olives Jan 13, 2009 09:35 AM

                                          I couldn't help but notice alanbarnes' choice of photo of a spiffily dressed Al Capone.

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                                          1. re: Up With Olives
                                            alanbarnes Jan 13, 2009 10:13 AM

                                            Jacket and tie aren't just for fine dining - they're for mug shots, too.

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                                    2. Veggo Jan 12, 2009 08:42 AM

                                      Does anyone remember when The Cloisters on Sea Island had black tie bingo twice a week? I thought it was elegant and fun.

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                                      1. jfood Jan 12, 2009 03:48 PM

                                        jfood is firmly in the camp of not wanting to be surrounded by people dressed to clean their basements when he is eating at a good restaurant. It is about respect, decorum, good manners and being part of a larger society. It is NOT any form of discrimination, all you need to do is wear a jacket, not change the color of your skin, gender or national origin.

                                        Restaurants have the right to decide if they will allow people dressed too informally to eat at their establishment. As long as they do not truly discriminate, then jfood is all for it.

                                        And visual stimulae are just as important to some as hearing. One man's vinegar is another's wine.

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                                        1. re: jfood
                                          Veggo Jan 12, 2009 04:00 PM

                                          I completely concur with jfood. Where would a sauteed foie gras appetizer be a more pleasant experience: in the middle of the Rainbow Room, or in the middle of a landfill?
                                          R.I.P. Rainbow room, a tragic loss.

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                                          1. re: Veggo
                                            alanbarnes Jan 12, 2009 04:21 PM

                                            The Rainbow Room was all about the view, the celebrities, the dancing - in short, the scene. And there's no doubt that everybody being dressed to the nines was part of the scene. But the place was never about the food, which in my experience was consistently mediocre. A complete lack of innovation, prepared and served indifferently. Which was okay if you were there for the scene, but if you were looking for good eats you were in the wrong place.

                                            Like I said above, I have no objection to dressing appropriately for the venue. But if I'm going to put on a jacket for dinner, I want more than well-dressed fellow diners - I want good food. (For that matter, if I'm going to put on pants for dinner I want good food.) There are plenty of places that serve up spectacular food - including seared foie gras - in a casual atmosphere. Given the choice of tolerable food in elegant surroundings and wonderful food next to (gasp!) a guy in shirt sleeves, I'll take Door B every single time.

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                                            1. re: alanbarnes
                                              pikawicca Jan 12, 2009 05:19 PM

                                              If you're eating mediocre food in public, you're willing to do it sans pants? You go, Alan!

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                                              1. re: pikawicca
                                                alanbarnes Jan 12, 2009 05:30 PM

                                                Hey, if it gets me great food, I'm there with the Full Monty.

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                                                1. re: alanbarnes
                                                  jfood Jan 12, 2009 05:35 PM

                                                  jfood is looking outside at at -15 F and -30F windchill. Eat quick or the food will not be the only thing suffering from flash frozen. And the MV will not help on the defrost cycle.

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                                          2. re: jfood
                                            jgg13 Jan 12, 2009 05:35 PM

                                            "Restaurants have the right to decide if they will allow people dressed too informally to eat at their establishment"

                                            In that I fully agree.

                                            Also, IMO, if a restaurant allows someone to dine there it implies that they're acceptable for that establishment. Given that, people can't really complain that this or that person is under/overdressed if they were allowed in.

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                                            1. re: jgg13
                                              jfood Jan 12, 2009 05:41 PM

                                              two separate issues.

                                              The restaurant can make their decisions and jfood can make his. And jfood can absolutely voice his displeasure to the manager that while paying $xx for a meal in a nice restaurant he does not want to sit next to someone wearing clothes more apt for cleaning a basement. And jfood can decide whether he wants to return in the same manner as mr(s) sloppy.

                                              to each his/her own.

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                                              1. re: jfood
                                                jgg13 Jan 12, 2009 05:50 PM

                                                Customer:The salads are fine. It's just that, we'd.. we'd like to move to another table, away from those two gentlemen.
                                                Mr Fabulous: Why? Have they been disturbing you?
                                                Customer: No. It's just that.. well frankly, they're offensive. Smelling. I mean they smell bad.
                                                Mr Fabulous: Excuse me sir, I'll see if I can locate another table for you.
                                                Customer: Thank you.

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                                                1. re: jgg13
                                                  jfood Jan 12, 2009 06:16 PM

                                                  seems appropriate.

                                                  jfood has done exactly that.

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                                                  1. re: jgg13
                                                    thew Jan 13, 2009 08:26 AM

                                                    Customer:The salads are fine. It's just that, we'd.. we'd like to move to another table, away from those two gentlemen.
                                                    Mr Fabulous: Why? Have they been disturbing you?
                                                    Customer: No. It's just that.. well frankly, their shoes offend me. Those are not "fine dining" shoes
                                                    Mr Fabulous: Excuse me sir, I'll see if I can locate a psychiatrist for you
                                                    Customer: Thank you.

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                                                    1. re: thew
                                                      BobB Jan 13, 2009 08:41 AM

                                                      Apples and oranges. Smells absolutely affect one's dining experience - I've moved tables when an adjacent diner apparently bathed in her favorite cologne, and I wouldn't have been able to enjoy my meal otherwise. I've never moved tables because someone near me is dressed like a slob - and I'm quite sure jfood has not either - though it certainly affects my opinion of their maturity.

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                                                      1. re: BobB
                                                        jgg13 Jan 13, 2009 08:57 AM

                                                        While I made the Blues Bros reference purely because I find that scene amusing and jfood's post reminded me of it, I'd definitely put smell in the 'physically disturbing' category and it certainly would be different than clothing choice. With smell being such a huge factor in taste, someone's Sex Panther cologne (60% of the time, it works every time) would certainly throw off how a meal tasted.

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                                                        1. re: BobB
                                                          Miss Needle Jan 13, 2009 09:27 AM

                                                          Smell definitely detracts from dining experience. At Cyrus in Sonoma county (where the dress code is described as business casual), the hostess led me to my table where were a bunch of guys sitting next to me in T-shirts and shorts. While I thought their attire wasn't appropriate for this type of restaurant, what really got me was the stench of BO that came from them. It was disgusting, and there was no way I could sit through a three hour meal with that. So I excused myself to go to the bathroom, found the host and requested them to change our seats.

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                                                          1. re: Miss Needle
                                                            Caralien Jan 13, 2009 09:50 AM

                                                            totally off topic now, but I recall having my 3rd course of the tasting menu at Tru when the cheese cart was rolled out and opened for the table next to ours. Fortunately, it was moved away in about 2 minutes.

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                                                            1. re: Caralien
                                                              Miss Needle Jan 13, 2009 09:52 AM

                                                              Ha ha. We were actually moved right next to the cheese cart. I thought it was heaven compared to the BO crowd.

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                                                          2. re: BobB
                                                            thew Jan 13, 2009 10:35 AM

                                                            the other difference is dress is germane to this topic, while smells have nothing to do with it.

                                                            we were discussing how the way one, and others, dress effect the dining experience. smell is a straw man argument.

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                                                            1. re: thew
                                                              BobB Jan 13, 2009 10:57 AM

                                                              Strictly speaking, the brief discussion of smell was a digression - not entirely germane, true, but not totally unrelated either.

                                                              On the other hand, you presented what was practically a dictionary definition of a straw man argument - you created a position out of thin air (i.e., positing that someone would go so far as to change tables because of someone else's choice of dress) and then used it to accuse a more civil poster of being insane.

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                                                              1. re: BobB
                                                                cassoulady Jan 13, 2009 11:23 AM

                                                                BobB, I bet eating next to you I would smell lemon.
                                                                That would be nice : )

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                                                      2. re: jfood
                                                        c oliver Jan 12, 2009 05:52 PM

                                                        Hi, j. Have you ever been on a cruise? Not the Carnival-type. They will specify what formality of dress is requested for each dinner but they won't turn people away. After all, they're in the business of people buying their product. They're not Per Se, a unique experience. So in competing with others, they have to bow to the lowest common demoninator. So I'm with you as far as will I return if the patrons' attire detracts from the whole experience.

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                                                        1. re: c oliver
                                                          jfood Jan 12, 2009 06:17 PM

                                                          re-read your last line. jfood thinks your missing a "not" before return

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                                                          1. re: jfood
                                                            c oliver Jan 12, 2009 06:24 PM

                                                            Oh, man, I need remedial reading and writing too :)

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                                                        2. re: jfood
                                                          t
                                                          taos Jan 12, 2009 05:53 PM

                                                          jfood -- While I agree with your position on the dress code issue, looking at your photo in your avatar and profile, I'm just wondering how you might deal with certain codes of dress in restaurants. I could be mistaken, but are you naked save for sunglasses and a hat?. Perhaps you have a tasteful collar on as well. I can't tell.

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                                                          1. re: taos
                                                            c oliver Jan 12, 2009 05:55 PM

                                                            I've been wondering if jfood chose the fur coat over the opposable thumb??? And he cooks???? Cool.

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                                                            1. re: taos
                                                              jfood Jan 12, 2009 06:21 PM

                                                              Yo T. That coat just received a major league bath with some very fine oatmeal soap and a 30 minute blow dry. I also have a license as a registered Therapy Dog (autistic children my specialty).

                                                              I chose the outfit right after reading Raichle's book on disguises and going to restaurants.

                                                              BTW - i dress better and have better manners than many two-leggers when sitting with the jfoods eating al fresco.

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                                                              1. re: jfood
                                                                c oliver Jan 12, 2009 06:25 PM

                                                                We took our non-avatar dog to a restaurant in Carmel some years ago. A fun and positive experience.

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                                                      3. Jetgirly Jan 12, 2009 04:45 PM

                                                        If I'm dining out, I would rather see someone in nicely cut, clean jeans and a sweater than in some double-breasted polyester suit that smells like mothballs because it's been in Old Man's closet since the last time he went out for a nice dinner 1980. Especially if he's sitting beside his wife, Old Lady, who is wearing a skirt and a beige rayon blouse with ruffles at the neck, but not enough ruffles to cover her cleavage, which is clearly exposed because the fabric has been washed to within a millimetre of its life and we can all see her Playtex boxed bra through the fabric, but she can't because she's got bad eyes. Frankly, what a lot of older people consider nice I consider repulsive.

                                                        But how long does it bother me for? About two seconds, then I go on enjoying my meal. Getting worked up over what other people wear isn't worth my effort. I've got enough serious things to be pissed off about! I'm eight months out of university, paying off student loans, car-less, renting an apartment, with virtually no disposable income. Luckily I don't have any dependents and can spend what little disposable income I have on what I want- which often includes eating out at nice places. I'm sorry if I ruin your dinner by wearing jeans and a basic top, but I'm not going to stay home (or eat at TGI Fridays) for the next five years until I can afford eveningwear for every occasion.

                                                        13 Replies
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                                                        1. re: Jetgirly
                                                          Caralien Jan 12, 2009 05:10 PM

                                                          Seriously, if the older couple is bothering you because they dressed nicely, there's a problem.

                                                          Jeans remain jeans (I won't renege on this one). If you're dressing up, jeans shouldn't be worn (black or otherwise).

                                                          Dressing up could include better cut trousers or skirts for women. Heels not required. Just clean clothes that look nice. I'm lazy, and have a collection of black dresses--from all price range (including some favourites which-gasp-come from Isaac Mizrahi's Target line--which I wear with a pair of heels or boots, depending on the climate. Button downs and khakis (not black, otherwise he might appear to be a server).

                                                          Yes, I did get my SO a seersucker suit. He wore it to a wedding and was the most overdressed person there, but was he overheating? No. Was it fun? Absolutely.

                                                          It's not about overdressing, just dressing the part. I feel overdressed when I'm wearing black and enjoying barbeque at a roadside stand, but a turtleneck and skirt work well enough during the cold season at most better places.

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                                                          1. re: Caralien
                                                            m
                                                            MrsT Jan 13, 2009 07:03 AM

                                                            As little as 3 years ago, I would have said, my best pair of pants were a pair of $200 jeans, I bought at a sample sale for $40. It's amazing how your tastes can change when you get older. Whether it's food or clothes. Can remember the day I decided I will no longer go to places like Outback and Applebees, and it's not because of the dress code.

                                                            While I may not go to Per Se wearing a cocktail dress or a ball gown. I wouldn't dare show up in a pair of jeans even if they did cost more than the meal itself. I would sooner show up in a pair of Target slacks, a Gap T-shirt, and a nice pair of Payless shoes.

                                                            BTW: I've received more compliments on my clothes bought at Target or at vintage shops, than I have any of the designer items I've bought at full price.

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                                                          2. re: Jetgirly
                                                            i
                                                            Ideefixed Jan 12, 2009 05:13 PM

                                                            As long as your basic top covers your muffin top, I'm good. But seriously, jeans are the only pants you own?

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                                                            1. re: Ideefixed
                                                              Jetgirly Jan 12, 2009 05:31 PM

                                                              My nicest pants are definitely jeans. I have dress pants that I wear to work but they were bought with work in mind. I'm a teacher and I come home with paint, Lunchables and snot all over my clothes; I am NOT investing in work clothes. A lot of my dress pants come from Old Navy, Jacob (Canadian store), etc. I've been in the workforce for five months and "I" (by which I mean my students) have already ruined three articles of clothing that I can think of. I have a few pairs of really nice jeans that are dark (not black- black jeans remind me too much of My So Called Life) and cut like dress pants. I really don't think that wearing those jeans with a pair of little heels and a black v-neck shirt would be worse, by any standards, than the typical "old people" outfits I described above. I'm not talking about low-rise, strategically-faded jeans with a one-inch zipper, bell bottoms and angel wings stitched into the back pockets! There definitely seems to be an element of age discrimination involved when talking about dress codes. I see a lot of older people in clothes that are fancy but very dated, worn and, frankly, "fragrant". I really don't see how that can be considered "nicer" than something simple but in good condition and clean.

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                                                              1. re: Jetgirly
                                                                viperlush Jan 12, 2009 06:50 PM

                                                                I don't know if I would go as far as to say age discrimination but I do understand what you are saying and how you are feeling. Our generations view of what equals dressy is not the same as our parents and I'm sure that their view is different than their parents. And it is easier for those with disposable income to buy things. I don't fault you for prioritizing. I agree that jeans, heels and a nice top are acceptable if that it want makes you (Jetgirly) feel comfortable (mentally and physically). Really unless you are standing no one sees what pants you have on, so as long as your top looks the part...

                                                                But maybe for your next bday or Xmas you can ask for dressier pants? After all I would think that as a teacher you might like to dress the part and act like an adult when you aren't surrounded by kids.

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                                                                1. re: viperlush
                                                                  c oliver Jan 12, 2009 06:52 PM

                                                                  Bless your heart. Thanks for offering compromise.

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                                                                  1. re: c oliver
                                                                    viperlush Jan 12, 2009 07:37 PM

                                                                    Thank you, I tried.

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                                                                  2. re: viperlush
                                                                    Jetgirly Jan 12, 2009 07:07 PM

                                                                    Why would I want to "dress the part" when "I'm not surrounded by kids"? I don't want to dress like a teacher when I'm not at work! I have great clothes to wear at other times. I do have lots of skirts (pencil skirts for dressing up, a-line skirts for dressy casual, and floaty skirts for being sloppy) and dresses, but we're coming off minus forty-five degree weather here, the snow on the uncleared sidewalks is two feet deep and the cleared parts have two inches of slush. When I take the bus to work, the bus doors open into a pile of snow MORE than two feet deep (I know because someone at work filed a complaint with transit). Without a car it's too cold to wear skirts and dresses! Thus, the jeans.

                                                                    Also, I run with a fairly fashionable crowd. I've got friends in the fashion industry, including some who work both for and at Toronto fashion week (the best we've got here in Canada!) and my wardrobe choices are pretty similar to theirs. I'm definitely not off the mark in terms of what is in style, and age-appropriate, for people in their twenties.

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                                                                    1. re: Jetgirly
                                                                      viperlush Jan 12, 2009 07:33 PM

                                                                      Calm down. I am not attacking you or your wardrobe. I'm the one who is siding with you. You were the one who focused just on jeans. Therefore my response focused on just pants. Read my earlier posts where I wrote basically the same thing about the weather.

                                                                      Apparently you didn't mean to, but in your earlier post you came across as a frazzled new teacher who spends her days getting snotted on and paint splatter by little children. And that you don't have anything else to wear except for jeans. With your meager disposable income you would rather go to a nice dinner than buy non denim pants. Sorry, but it didn't read like a fashionista who has managed to create a fashionable wardrobe (minus dressy pants). Dressy pants don't always equal work attire.

                                                                      You spend the day in cheap messy cloths surround by children not engaging in adult conversation or in an adult environment. By "dress the part" I mean get as far from that as possible. Not just eating at an "adult" restaurant engaging in quiet adult conversation , but dressing like how adults are expected to dress.

                                                                      Age appropriate attire doe not equal fine dining appropriate.

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                                                                      1. re: viperlush
                                                                        c oliver Jan 12, 2009 07:56 PM

                                                                        Do you want to be another one of my daughters?!? Our younger daughter, age 30, who lives in San Francisco, is the fashionista in the family and has jeans that cost way more than I've ever spent on a pair of pants. But she wouldn't wear a pair of jeans when it weren't appropriate. And her work dress code (she's at an ad agency) in no way would be translated to be carried out to all restaurants.

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                                                              2. re: Jetgirly
                                                                cassoulady Jan 12, 2009 06:18 PM

                                                                I don't know any old people that smell like mothballs. I have many "old people" friends. Some smell like gin, some like flowers, some like freshly fallen snow, but none like mothballs. Perhaps I need to broaden my circle since I dont know any mothy people...

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                                                                1. re: Jetgirly
                                                                  alanbarnes Jan 12, 2009 06:57 PM

                                                                  Why spend your time and energy looking down at the folks at the next table?

                                                                  So you're young and don't have a lot of disposable income. Big deal. If you're well-mannered and doing your best to dress appropriately, I don't care whether you're wearing jeans.

                                                                  By the same token, though, the old folks at the next table are also out for a good meal and are also presumably on their best behavior. The fact that they don't have fashionable duds just doesn't matter.

                                                                  Anybody who only wants to be seen with the "right" kind of people needs to spend more time at a places with velvet ropes and contemptuous bouncers. As far as I'm concerned, the only admission ticket people need for a good meal is a moderate sense of decorum and a discerning palate.

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                                                                  1. re: alanbarnes
                                                                    Veggo Jan 12, 2009 07:16 PM

                                                                    I don't look down at people. But there is visual "noise". I tried to respond to you earlier, but the new rules of '09 seem to have been modified so that if Veggo is suspected of chewing gum while typing, he should be deleted immediately.
                                                                    Deflating, at best.

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                                                                2. m
                                                                  Matash Jan 12, 2009 05:14 PM

                                                                  We were out New Years Eve and decided to dress up - it felt good - when we got to the restaurant downtown there were people in jeans, women in long skirts, men with jackets and men with shirts and ties, young people with t shirts - quite a mix

                                                                  I guess it is whatever you choose to wear and feel comfortable is fine as long as ok with restaurant dress code

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                                                                  1. t
                                                                    taos Jan 12, 2009 05:24 PM

                                                                    What people wear in public settings matters. When I go to a restaurant, a large part of the experience for which i am paying is the atmosphere and ambience. If it were not, then Eric Ripert would serve his food on picnic tables with paper tablecloths and you'd sit on plastic chairs after ordering at a counter with the menu displayed in plastic lights.

                                                                    A large part of that atmosphere takes the form of your fellow diners. If they show up to Le Bernadin (to carry on the above example), wearing shorts, a tank top and flip flops, it's akin to replacing the tables with plastic booths, like at McDonalds.

                                                                    Unfortunately, some people don't understand this. They shlep out of the house in sweats, old jeans and sweatshirts and don't seem to give a cr*p about what effect is has on their fellow planet-dwellers. For this reason, restaurants require dress codes for the minority (but growing) number of folks that can't dress themselves properly. And rather than say, "please bathe, wear clean clothes, not what you'd wear to change the oil on your car, no T-shirts with the logo of your favorite rock band, etc. etc." they simply say "Jacket required" and hope that will get the point across and/or cover up underlying sins.

                                                                    And don't even get me started about what people wear to church/synagogue these days or, God forbid, a funeral.

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                                                                    1. The Chowhound Team Jan 13, 2009 12:07 PM

                                                                      Folks, it seems like everyone's had their say on t his one and now we're going around in increasingly pedantic and unfriendly circles. We're going to lock this thread and ask that people move on to new topics.

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