Prices on Specials [split from Ontario]

[tjr]

[Note: This thread was split from the Ontario board at: http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/5782... -- The Chowhound Team].

I don't think I've ever been told the price of a special at any restaurant, unless it was more like, "Our lunch specials are $9.99!" or they were trying to push a tasting menu or something. It's your responsibility to ask for the price of the item.

[iamafoodie]

Verbal or written, the menu is a contract with the guest and as such should provide full financial disclosure as well as other details. If the contract is incomplete, get it clarified.

[hsk]

I never ask the price, I just never order the special unless they tell me (ever since I was burnt by a "special" that was 2x the price of anything else on the menu). I don't see why it's so much effort in a 20-second recitation of what is on offer to add 2 seconds of pricing info. It's not like high-end places don't list prices on the menu (I do remember one place in the early 80's that had "guest" menus without pricing, but I haven't seen it recently outside of private clubs).

[lemons]

I have seldom if ever run into the I-Don't-Know-The-Price bit, and was frankly shocked to see how often it's being reported. The policy on announcing the price of the specials unrequested or witholding them is a management thing most of the time. It bugs me, too, and seems disrespectful to make guests (do they even call 'em that anymore?) ask or feel intimidated enough NOT to ask.

Various tacks: Interrupting the spiel after each special with "How much is that?" until they get the idea. At the end of the spiel, asking with a deliberately serious mien, "What's the reason for not giving the price with the specials?" Discussing it with management is always a good idea.

But "If you have to ask, you can't afford it," was only supposed to refer to yachts.

[Cheflambo]

As we all know, in some "high-end" situations, the price is irrelevant. Expense accounts, first dates, etc. sort of imply that you not ask the price, or don't need to. I know a lot of big spenders who will ONLY order from the special offerings, and never ask a price. However, if you are a price concious diner who doesn't want to seem like a tightwad, you should just assume that whatever the special IS, its going to be 0-25% higher than that most expensive item on the printed menu.

Yes, the waiter SHOULD offer you the price at the end of the description. I am always grateful for this. It seldom alters my desire for the dish either way. Sometimes the price is so out-of-the-ballpark that the server is actually embarrassed to tell you that your puny little piece of fish with foo-foo sauce is $65, when the rest of the menu hovers in the $30-$40 range. It does discourage people from ordering it.

Servers should put more effort into reading their customers (I know I know -- most already do). Say you've got a table of seniors (read: limited income) coming in for brunch on a Sunday. Standard meals are $15-$20, but the buffet is $40/pp. If you don't have that buffet price noted somewhere (on the menu, or on a discreet card on the table) you really NEED to tell them how much it is, or there will potentially be a sad and unpleasant scene when then check comes. Being up front about the prices can avoid the uncomfortable dialog during ordering that seems like "OK, the buffet for you, sir. Its $40 you know ..." leaving them looking cheap when they say "oh, well, then I will just have an english muffin and some juice". There goes your gratuity!!

[Karl S]

I *always* ask for each special where the price is not mentioned. Even if I don't expect to be interested. Unless it's an establishment that has printed menus without prices (which used to be called ladies' menus), then I consider it prima facie evidence of an attitude by the management (not the server as such) towards customers that could use improvement. I don't think a lot of managers realize that this practice is a pennywise/pound-foolish one that breeds mistrust, and if anything goes wrong in the food or service, that mistrust moves to ill-will.

[Pincus]

I think it's an easy way to make a few more bucks from some parties.

Example, you are on a first date and you are paying and your date orders the special. Do you pipe up and say, "Er, how much is that?" I wouldn't.

This has already been discussed, but what about when you are the guest for a host? Do you ask the price of the special in this case? Some hosts might get insulted because you are implying they are poor or that their generosity is suspect, some might appreciate that you are careful with their money. If you know ahead of time which is which, that's great, but you don't always.

I agree that on our own or with someone we are comfortable with, ask away.

This is sort of like the "sparkling or flat?" ploy some places use when you ask for water. Of course the responses provided by other CHers here are always good: "Tap" or "City".

[susancinsf]

since it is polite to let the date order first, there is no need to pipe up when the date orders a special and say, 'how much is that?" Rather, when it comes to your turn to order (host should defer to guest and order last, say, "Well, I was trying to decide between xxx on the menu, and the special Y. How much did you say the special Y was again?".

[nkeane]

except at that point its too late! what are you going to do, say "oh, that dish you ordered, dear, is too much. find something else." highly doubt thats happening on any date!LOL

[susancinsf]

of course you won't. but the guest might. So, by asking you accomplish two things:

short term: if the price is REALLY out of line ( as I thought $45 for a tenderloin was at what is described as a pub place in what prompted the original thread) it is quite possible that the guest will say something like, 'oh my gosh, that's ridiculous, I'd like to change my order please'...A sensitive guest may pick up on it.....I mean, if it really is highway robbery...(I am thinking of the $20 I was charged for a poached pear for a dessert at lunch one of the few times I forgot to ask, when the highest price for dessert on the menu was about $9. I mean, comeon, NO poached pear is worth that type of money and that would raise anyone's eyebrows)...now, if the special isn't out of line, or is only a bit out of line, no harm done.....but if it is highway robbery, I don't think the host is under any obligation to encourage the guest to order it anyway. Host could remain silent and point made (and if you are good friends, you could dis the restaurant over it later).

but, more importantly, there is a long term benefit, regardless of whether the special price is out of line, and regardless of whether the guest picks up on the fact that it is out of line and changes their order: it clues in the restaurant that the host does not like that type of behavior and reminds the restaurant that such behavior is not appreciated and that you can't fool all the people all the time.

Indeed, if it were me, and price was way out of line but guest didn't pick up on it, (or if for any reason I didn't want to ask but discovered the hard way when I got the bill) I'd email the restaurant the next day to say, "I didn't want to say anything in front of my guest and embarrass him or her, but shame on you and I will certainly think twice before I return to your establishment again".

[Cheflambo]

The only date this would happen on is a LAST one!

[jfood]

Of all the peeves that people have, jfood included, this one is on the "A" List if not at the top of the list. There is absolutely no excuse for the restaurant that takes such pain in making wonderful dishes, presents menus with prices to verbally describe the day's special and exclude prices. As far as jfood is concerned, it is dispicable. There jfood has drawn the line in the sand.

Yes he was the victim (and his own fault he admits) for ordering the special pasta one night in one of his favorite red sauce M&P. He and mrs jfood went for an inexpensive mid-week meal and the pastas all range in the min-teens. He ordered the seafood special and it was enormous and filled with lots of seafood. When the bill arrived the charge was $39, at a mid-teens place. He shrugged, blamed himself and took the oath never to do that again.

Over the last month he has asked 5 separate waiters what the price of the specials were that were of interest and FIVE OUT OF FIVE times the waiter DID NOT know the price but had to return to the kitchen to find out. So even the little card that contained the specials did not have the price. Major red flag and jfood thought that the owner sorta made it up on the fly. Needless to say jfood was not getting in that sandbox. Once jfood told the waiter as he embarked onthe specials to please give the price of each. He received "the look" and the server stared at jfood at each price. Now do you think that attitude brought a higher than 15% tip? think 10%. And jfood's companions thanked jfood as they hate the no-price verbal menus as well.

To the posters who say:

1 -it's too much work - write a few 3x5 cards and leave with the table. This has happened to jfood and it works fine;
2 - it's the customer's responsibility - agreed, but they should not be put in that position. To the shirt example, dollars to donuts if you mentioned that to the manager, s/he would have someone over there placing the prices on the shirts.
3 - it's a last minute decision as the chef decides on the ingredients - great, but if they have the wherewithal to tell the servers how to describe the dish, then a few more words with numbers is no big deal
4 - embarassing the customer that you think he may not be able to afford it - your kidding. You give the customer a full menu with prices and then the last few will embarass him. Yes jfood agrees that adding the price at the end of each description does irritate the ying-yang, so just leave a piece of paper with the descriptions with a price so the customer can act like a Navy Seal and discover Nemo's price.
5 - We do not have the time to print them - Jfood raised two daughters and the last time one of them used that excuse for her homework she did a skedattle up the stairs to print here homework. You're a business. What's next, no time to mop the floor?

So jfood stands firmly in the camp of all restaurant should provide prices of ALL the items presented to the customer. But if they do not, it is the customer's responsibility to either turn a deaf ear to that choice or ask the price prior to ordering.

[susancinsf]

hear, hear.

Nothing to add, except that I recently had an even more aggravating and inexcusable experience: items were on the menu, but there still were no prices listed!

I went to a newly opened Mexican restaurant in Vegas. They handed me the menu.Menu had prices for all food items (as one would expect) and, there was also a little card on the table describing special happy hour cocktails (and listing their prices)...all fine and dandy, except that the otherwise wonderful list of tequilas and specialty margaritas PRINTED ON THE MENU had NO Prices. I then asked the server how much a certain tequila drink was, he said he didn't know, and would go ask. I had visions of this happening for each drink I was interested in on the list (since place was new, server was new also), and so stopped him, saying I would have the happy hour special margarita for which a price was listed on the table card. In fairness, since place was new, I wouldn't expect him to know the price offhand and I suppose he could eventually learn the prices of each tequila on the list: but there were over 30 of them! If you can't put that many prices on a menu, print out a weekly supplement for virtually no cost.

I have images of other patrons ordering a margarita and being very unpleasantly surprised since overall this was a reasonably priced restaurant (some of the tequilas on the list were quite high end). Ironically, or not, the place was in a casino: does management think patrons really want to gamble even over the cost of their drinks at dinner? Or are they taking advantage of ignorance and unwillingness to appear 'cheap'? I don't buy for a minute that the price of a bottle of tequila changes so quickly that they can't put prices on their printed menus: if they truly can't, they could print a weekly or even monthly supplement at very little cost.

I hate the practice of not telling specials prices so much that it is now my usual practice to ask the prices of specials when they aren't announced, even if the special is something I know I would never, ever order, just to remind the server that people should be told BEFORE the bill comes.

[dinin and dishin]

That is the more common practise, but that doesn't make it right. I have certainly been to a number of fine dining establishments where the server describes the special and tells you the price. I've always kind of resented the fact that you usually have to ask. I feel it is a little bit of intimidation on their part. They wouldn't put out a menu without prices.

Even when they don't tell you, I expect that the specials are at least priced to be in the same ballpark as the regular items. If a restaurant is going to offer a special that is almost double the price of other items, it is unfair to hide that fact from the unwitting diner. It's one thing if you're at a top spot and prepared to blow a bundle on dinner, but I wouldn't expect a $45 special when visiting the local pub for a burger and beer.

Fine if you have a bottomless pocketbook and are paying for the meal, but if I was the guest of someone and unwittingly ordered the most expensive thing available by ordering the special, I would be both embarassed and ticked off.

[grandgourmand]

I agree with you about the practice of not disclosing prices. That's not cool, but a failry common practice, unfortunately.. It's a pet peeve of mine, actually. But, to be fair, they are serving Cumbrae's meat, which ain't cheap. And Allen's is probably the closest thing to a gastropub we've got, so it's not like you're getting a $45 special at a Firkin pub. Although I'm defending it, I hesitate to order anything over $20 at Allen's and prefer to get their delicious burger.

[tjr]

It has nothing to do with having a bottomless pocketbook, it has to do with asking the price. Would you buy anything else without seeing what the price was? It's not a shady business practice if they tell you how much something costs when you ask. It's not "hidden" unless they refuse to tell you, at which point, why would you even still be there?

There _IS_ a price on the specials, you just have to ask. Assert yourselves. Don't let people take advantage of you. Do you go into every restaurant and instantly accept sparkling or still water no matter what the price just because those were the only options given (and without a price)?

Yes, the restaurant could tell you the price of specials. Sometimes they have a chalk board with the price, and other times the server might even have to go check to see what the price is. The fact that they don't tell you upfront isn't a big deal though, because you can ask the price.

It may be a pet peeve that restaurants don't disclose their price on a special upfront, but one of my pet peeves is people who order a special without asking the price, then get upset about it. If I were getting a Cumbrae tenderloin, I'd expect it to cost more than $20 at just about any restaurant, wouldn't you?

[dinin and dishin]

tjr
I didn't say it was a shady or unethical practise. I said it was common but not appreciated. From the other comments here, I see that I am not alone in wishing that wait staff, while hovering at my table long enough to rhyme off the myriad of ingredients and cooking techniques of each special would take a half second to wrap it up with the price. Is that offensive to you? Maybe they would sell more specials if they didn't play this silly game...which I assume is what they desire.

Not everyone who visits a pub, even an upscale pub, knows enough about what a Cumbrae tenderloin is to assume anything about the price and all the meat on the menu is Cumbrae, so I would again assume it to be priced in line with the other items on the menu.

I can't think of any other business that makes their customers "ask" the price of their featured items - even Holt Renfrew displays their price tags. Any other business would suffer if they followed a similar practise .

When I go out to dinner, I don't want to play 20 questions. I am more likely to return when a server makes me feel comfortable.

And while we are on the subject, I've always found the fact that Allens doesn't clearly put their burger on the menu as an official "priced" item, but only adds the following comment at the bottom of the sandwich section.

"We also serve what are widely considered to be Toronto's best hamburgers."

I guess that is why I rarely go to Allens anymore, even though it is close enough to walk to.

[tjr]

"That is the more common practise, but that doesn't make it right." So if the practice is "wrong," what is it?

All this talk about "assuming" prices is complete nonsense. It is your responsibility to ask for the price of the item. When a person walks through the doors of a restaurant, do they lose common sense?

I can name numerous restaurants in Toronto (in all price ranges) where special prices are not given unless asked, or where bottled water (sparkling or still) is offered without a price given. Do I care? No, because I'm not ashamed or embarrassed to ask for the price of something. Do you get angry when you see "Market Price" on a menu and refuse to eat at the restaurant?

You seem to completely avoid the original topic of discussion: it is your responsibility to ask for the price of an item if you want to order it. You act as if the restaurant is forcefully withholding this information from you, when there is nothing further from the truth. What is offensive to me is that people seem to think that entering a restaurant means surrendering intelligent thought, then they proceed to complain about it.

[mikeb]

By reciting the whole description without the price, the waiter is in fact withholding the price from you. They give you everything but the price. You won't know it until you ask. They almost never do it in the menu, why would an establishment do it when presenting the specials?

Yes, people should ask for the price if it's not given, but frankly a well trained waiter tells it to you up front. There are instances when asking the price can be awkward. For example when someone else it the host. Some people are just quiet. Why train waitstaff to potentially annoy or upset a customer? Why would a restaurant not train their waitstaff to make their experience the best possible for all their patrons? Those are the right questions to ask.

This is not a new pet peeve. And it is certainly not uncommon. It has come up on this board more than once.

[tjr]

They are not forcefully withholding the price from you, as you have the ability to ask and they will give it to you. If they did not give you the price upon asking then, yes, they would be withholding it. Most restaurants do in fact do this when asking for your choice of water at the start of the meal, which they do not price out for you.

If it's so irritating, use your feet. Otherwise, order off the menu and be satisfied that you know how much something costs if you're afraid to be assertive and ask someone a simple question.

[dinin and dishin]

TJR, you certainly feel very strongly about this.
I didn't avoid the original topic of discussion. The original poster commented on being shocked by the $45 special when the bill arrived. I assume that she also looked at where she was and the other prices on the menu and made an educated guess. She was wrong. So was the waiter in not telling her (IMHO). I was also amazed that a pub would have a $45 dollar special. I was commiserating with the poster.

I have no problem asking the price, but I prefer not to in certain situations (thank you mikeb) (first date?, guest of a boss or relative? part of a large crowd that is already challenging the server?) I think that restaurants that want to push their specials should provide the diner with all the information they need to make an educated decision.

You seem to think that it is the patron's responsibility to solicit this information from the restaurant and I feel it is the restaurant's responsibility to provide their customers with all the information they need to make an educated decision. I mean really, what possible reason would they have for no offering the price up front? Is it too hard for them? Are they embarrassed by the price? Or are they just lazy? Just because everyone else does it doesn't make it right.

so let's agree to disagree, and by the way, that'll be 2 cents. :)

[tjr]

At most restaurants like this, in Toronto, if you ask the price of the special, the waiter ends up having to go back to ask management or someone else anyways.

I'm not saying this is a wonderful thing for a business to do, what I am saying is that it's common practice, and that you shouldn't ever be surprised because you have the ability to ask. I'm sorry if I am coming off a bit strong on the subject, but I don't feel sympathy for people who lack the common sense to ask for a price, then complain about it.

If you eat out at restaurants other than Kelsey's, you'll end up facing this situation quite often. It's not a reason to get upset. I wouldn't buy something without knowing the price, would you? Probably not.

I agree with you that, yes, the restaurants should provide prices up front. What I'm saying is that if they don't, you shouldn't order things without asking and then be surprised at what you get. Considering the number of complaints on this topic in general, "specials" are usually quite expensive compared to normal dishes. While OP may not have known the price of Cumbrae tenderloin at a restaurant, they should have known that tenderloin isn't going to come out to the same price as a burger would (even at somewhere like Kelsey's).

Just use common sense.

[nosh]

Wait a minute, tjr -- Your position is that it is up to the customer to ask the price of the unstated special, and if one does so the waiter won't even know? Absurd. And wrong, on every single level.

[tjr]

I said if the price isn't stated, if you want to order it you should obviously ask the price. I don't believe that the waiter doesn't always know, but I've been to plenty of places where a simple "How much is the special?" ends up being answered with "Oh... I don't know, let me check."

If you actually read my posts (I know, it's absurd, and perhaps wrong on every single level, to expect that sometimes), you'd see that I agree that it's not a nice thing for restaurants to do, but that's no excuse for the patron not asking the price and then being surprised by the bill.

[pinstripeprincess]

prada. if you have to ask... seems to be the policy there. i don't think they're struggling that badly. it also could just be the nyc museum style shop but it does stand that not a single price is shown in the store.

this is a pet peeve of mine as well and i can't say i disagree with tjr either that if i choose not to ask then it is in a way my fault because if i was so concerned about the price, it was just a measly question away. and don't they usually ask if you have any questions about the specials after rattling them off?

in the instances where one might consider asking for the price as gauche, well just don't get the special! there is probably more than likely another option on the regular priced out menu that you'll enjoy at least as much. if you're with company where you are comfortable but it seriously does peeve you... i'd leave... or just ask what the price is of a single special at a time until you get through every single one and perhaps then the server will be inclined to rattle them all off at once for future patrons or encourage the management to print it off or just say them to start. besides... once they're through the full description of two dishes... my mind wanders and i never recall a single one.

[dinin and dishin]

I guess there is really two issues here:

1. Should restaurants provide the price of specials when presenting them to guests? My answer is yes, either verbally or, preferably, in writing...for the comfort and convenience of their guests. (even though, like you Princess, I do glazeover, but I would definitely prick up my ears if I heard an exorbitant price)

2. Should you ask the price if it is not provided? Again, my answer is yes of course, well really my answer is ahh...duh...yeah if it is something you are considering ordering.

But more importantly, if a special is priced at a level significantly higher than other items on the menu, I think it is their duty to tell the customer. Even if it contains ingredients like fois gras or caviar, not every patron is a foody or a frequent restaurant goer or understands the prices of certain foods. And not every patron will be comfortable asking for any number of reasons.

Restaurants are in the "hospitality" business--their income and survival is completely dependent on contented customers who return and speak highly of them - but still most of them seem to fail to understand this basic fact.

The relationship between restaurant and patron is one that is fraught with expectations and disappointments on both sides--everything from tipping on their side to food quality on our side. I think whatever the restaurant can do to alleviate some angst is GOOD BUSINESS.

Allens, the restaurant that started this thread, does not even put the price of the "famous" burger on the printed menu, which also forces patrons to ask. I mean really, what possible reason could they have for that? Totally annoying practise.

[foodyDudey]

I don't think diners should have to ask for the price of a special. Do you have to ask for the price of the other items?

We all know that restaurants usually don't mention the price and many of those "specials" have a special high price. I dined at Alice's restaurant on the weekend and the waitress mentioned the speical, described it, and then said it was $26. I was really surprised, and thought here's a place that doens't pull that "special" scam on the diners.

[tjr]

If you know that, in general, the "specials" have a special high price, wouldn't you be inclined to ask the price of unpriced specials? It's your responsibility to ensure the price of the things you order, not the restaurant's. How are they supposed to know how much you're willing to pay, or what you would find too expensive?

As you've noted, your experience at Alice's is far from the norm. I don't think specials are necessarily a scam, and I'm not afraid to ask how much they cost. Is it really a big deal to say, "How much is that?"

If a special is written down (like the other menu items), I'd expect a price on the menu or board (unless the restaurant doesn't have prices on other items, which is rare), but when the waiter mentions it at the start of the meal, I don't see a problem with not telling you the price. If it interests you, you ask, simple as that. If you don't ask, tough luck. It's not really a scam, foodyDudey, because if you ask them, they will tell you the price.

[foodyDudey]

I have no problem asking. But I'm sure quite a few others do. If they are able to tell you every detail of what's in that special. there's no reason that the price should not be mentioned, especially if it's much higher than the other menus items.