HOW TO SAVE MONEY EATING OUT

[mangiabeve]

... BYOB.
(bring your own bottle)

With the economy in the state it's in, I find myself doing it more and more. Many restaurants in NYC mark up a bottle of wine by 100%, and that's OK, I understand a guy's got to make a living. BUT... I found one of my everyday Sicilian Nero D'Avolas (that I buy in my local wine shop for under $10) going for over $45 in a restaurant. Now that's just not right.

So here are a few guidelines and suggestions regarding BYOB's:

Some restaurants waive the corkage fee, and if they do it's generally a good idea to give the waiter/waitress a good tip.

But if you do have to pay a corkage fee, the range is usually from $10-30. And that's still saving you money.

You should also call in advance to make sure the bottle your bringing is not on that particular restaurant's wine list.

Some restaurants may have a "maximum" number of bottles you may bring in, once you go over that number you must buy from the wine list.

cent'anni
Mangiabeve (Dave T)

http://vignauvavino.blogspot.com/

[zin1953]

This is new?

[Frodnesor]

You should also be aware that if you bring a cheap everyday bottle of wine to a restaurant simply because you don't want to pay for the wines on their list, you may be perceived - whether rightly or wrongly - as a douchebag.

Without taking a position on that perception, I generally try at a minimum to match the quality of the wine I bring to the quality of the wine list. If the restaurant has no wine list to speak of or a really limited one, I may not pay much attention to what I bring. If they have a reasonably decent list, I usually will try to bring a wine that is somewhat special - i.e. something with limited production and availability, something with some bottle age on it, etc.

*Some restaurants waive the corkage fee, and if they do it's generally a good idea to give the waiter/waitress a good tip.*

Whether or not a restaurant waives corkage, I've always regarded it as good form to tip your waiter based on the value of the wine you've brought. If your budget is so tight that you're BYOBing to save a little money, imagine how your server is doing.

[ibstatguy]

LOL; generally agree with you but today I took a bottle of prosecco along with a bottle of Denner Ditch Digger to a restaurant to share with some friends. Clearly the prosecco is "cheap" as it were but this particular place has a gosh awful wine list. I felt things were balanced out by the Denner. When I do bring my own wine, I always make a point of sharing some with the server or sommelier, if they have any interest.

[Brad Ballinger]

Saving money should be the LAST reason for bringing your own wine. And bringing an under $10 wine to a restaurant is really bad form -- unless the restaurant is BYO only.

[climberdoc]

I disagree with your first comment and agree with the second. Bringing cheap wine to an upscale restaurant with a good wine program is tacky.

I do believe that saving money is amongst a number of benefits to bringing wine to a restaurant. In Vegas many of my favorite restaurants have $50 corkage fees. If I bring a bottle of wine that I paid $50 for then I get the benefits of bringing a wine of my choice that has aged in my cellar while saving money since the restaurants markup is often 3 to 4 times retail. Does this make me cheap Brad? Your comment seems excessively harsh in light of the current economy.

[Brad Ballinger]

I don't think my comments are harsh at all. Look at it from the restaurant's point of view. BYO is a privilege, not a right. No restuarant has to allow it. Might as well bring a bottle of vodka, and ask if they'll set you up with some tonic. Might as well bring your own steak, and ask them to cook it and put their sauce on it for you. What's the difference from the cheapskate angle?

If someone wants to save money, don't order wine, cook at home, take it to go.

I bring my own wine plenty of times. I always ask ahead of time. I always offer to pay any corkage fee. I always am very gracious and never expect any favor.

I should also add, that if I bring my own to a restaurant, I will also order from their list or visit them again not bringing any wine with me.

[climberdoc]

Maybe I should step back and re-explain myself since it seems that I've insulted one of the stalwarts of the wine board. For me, saving money is not as much the issue as is not wanting to pay the inflated prices restaurants charge. I could easily afford most wines on the inflated lists, but I typically choose not to. Using their glassware, servers, corkscrews, etc does not come close to justifying the price inflation. An institution that charges $100 for a $20 bottle or $1000 for a $200 bottle I really have trouble caring about their "point of view". Sounds like you've been indoctrinated into thinking this is fair practice. I'll bring my own wine, pay the corkage and give my money to someone who deserves it.

[zin1953]

For every wine list with "inflated" prices -- and, as you know, there are dozens! -- there are also retaurants that do NOT change the proverbial "arm-and-a-leg."

So, too, are there bargains to be found on almost every wine list -- even those which, generally, are known for being "ridiculously priced."

Many times I will dine out and BYOB; many times, I will buy off the list . . . it all depends upon mood, restaurant, where I'm coming from (am I coming from home? my office? a hotel?), and -- to a certain extent -- advance planning: have I had that old bottle of _________ standing up long enough to be decanted cleanly?

And of course, I *never* bring a bottle that's already on the list!

Cheers,
Jason

[Brad Ballinger]

climberdoc, I'm not against BYO whatsoever. It's just that people who abuse the privilege (not saying you do), have some affect on the rest of us.

[climberdoc]

What I still don't grasp is where the line between playing by the rules and abusing the privilege is drawn. It's still my feeling that despite everything said below (especially zin1953's/Jason's articulate and informative posts) that the best way to steer clear of this line is to bring more expensive bottles. My prized bottle may be someone else's Yellowtail. Yellowtail may be someone else's prized bottle. The line between inexpensive and cheap is very grey.

[Brad Ballinger]

I agree the line is fuzzy, and doesn't always stay in one plae. Let's stay with Yellowtail as an example. For a restaurant that doesn't serve wine but allows patrons to bring their own, I say anything is fair game. I've seen people bring six packs of beer to such places.

For high end restaurants that pay attention to their wine lists, you will not find Yellowtail, and probably nothing equivalent with respect to retail price. Bringing in Yellowtail would be perceived as tacky, even if it is one's absolute favorite wine. But there has to be a wine that is less expensive than any of the others. Or going by the glass might be the option. BTW, the food is usually marked up pretty high in those places, too.

Those are the two extremes. For places in between, there will be at least something comparable to Yellowtail on the list. Therefore, bringing in Yellowtail can be perceived as being cheap.

Now, some restaurants will handle bringing in Yellowtail with class. Others won't.

So I always bring in something unique (either by vintage date -- old -- or that can't be procured where I live -- Minnesota). I always call to inqure about corkage. I always say "I'd be happy to pay whatever you charge." I always share. And I always tip more. I show the restaurant it's not about the money.

[Pigloader]

Wow. First of all, not exactly news. Secondly, I second Frodnesor's initial reaction to the post. Bringing 'every day' wine to a resto just to save money does, in fact, brand you a douchebag. If you bring your own wine, it should be because it's a rare/special bottle that has little chance of being found on their list, not because you're a cheapskate. Are restauranteurs not entitled to make money as well in this crappy economy? The cost of a bottle on a winelist includes--in addition to the margins necessary to keep a restaurant running -- proper storage, wine service, printing menus, etc etc etc.

Even if a restaurant has a crappy winelist, you still shouldn't bring some random bottle that you got at the local grocery on the way over just because you don't feel like paying list prices. While you're at it, why not bring in some hamburger and ask the chef to make you some meatloaf?

[carswell]

Also, while this information is presented as a universal truth, there are lots of places it doesn't apply. In Quebec, for example, restaurants are licensed either to sell wine (i.e. have a wine list) or to serve wine (i.e. operate as a BYOB) period. As BYOB is illegal at restaurants that can sell wine, the maximum number of bottles you can bring is zero, so there's no need to call in advance to check your bottle against their list. And only a very few BYOB restaurants charge corkage, usually in the range of $5 a bottle.

And aren't there jurisdictions elsewhere in North America where BYOB in any form is against the law?

[RicRios]

Please don't get me started on American nightmarish legal mishegoss when it comes to selling, buying, drinking, touching, seeing, importing, labeling, ogling a bottle of (gasp!) alcohol. There, now I said it.

[Brad Ballinger]

In the U. S., BYOB laws vary in some cases by state, in some by county, and in others by municipality. On top of that, even where it is legal, some restaurants do not allow BYOB.

[mangiabeve]

First, not everyone knows about BYOB's... second, if you read my first post you'll see I never said I bring everyday wines.

[zin1953]

>>> First, not everyone knows about BYOB's <<<

I have NEVER met anyone who liked wine that DIDN'T know about BYOB, and generally lamented about the illegality of it in their state! Not to mention expressed excessive jealously about my being in California where (virtually) EVERY place is BYOB!

>>> second, if you read my first post you'll see I never said I bring everyday wines <<<

Uh . . .

>>> Nero D'Avolas (that I buy in my local wine shop for under $10) going for over $45 in a restaurant <<<

[mangiabeve]

Uh, again, I didn't BRING the nero D'avola, they SOLD it at the rest.

[SteveG]

I think the point was mangiabeve might bring a $30 Nero D'Avola and happily pay $15 in corkage before paying 4.5 times retail. I probably would too, though I'd also probably never go to a restaurant with a wine program that assumes the consumers know so little about wine that they wouldn't feel horrifically ripped off.

[climberdoc]

In regards to Pigloader's post:
In my usual devil's advocate style, I ask you why are you coming to the defense of restaurants who charge exorbitant prices on wine which are far higher than the costs you listed? Where else in our economy are such markups tolerated?

I wrote a previous post on this thread where I agreed that bringing "cheap" wine to a restaurant is lame. After reading you post, I'm not so sure anymore. How is cheap defined? What about the $15 wines that drink like wines 3 times their price? IMHO discovering those great QPRs is one of the great rewards I take from wine. An inexpensive wine is not necessarily a "cheap" wine. I have special $100 wines as well as special $15 wines, although the latter are far less common. Multiple folks on this thread including myself seem to be guilty of wine snobbery.

[zin1953]

BYOB is, or rather can be, a double-edged sword. One thing to look at is WHY -- why does one BYOB to a restaurant?

Presuming one lives a) in the United States, and b) within a jurisdiction where BYOB is legal -- obviously this is not true of everywhere -- I can think of several reasons to do so:

1) It's a special day (birthday? anniversary?) and you've been saving that special bottle of _______________ for just this occasion.

2) The mark-up on the wine list is flat-out obscene, without any sort of justification, BUT the food is really good; your solution is to eat the chef's food, but boycott the owner's wine list and its pricing.

3) You are seriously into wine, have a huge wine cellar, and you've got bottles that need drinking!

4) You are seriously "into" wine, a wine geek, and are getting together with several other wine geeks for dinner when everyone is bringing bottles . . .

5) You ARE cheap, and you think you'll show the restaurant by bringing a bottle of Two Buck Chuck to the French Laundry . . .

I'm sure there are other reasons, too, but it's the end of the work day, and that's all that is coming to mind at the end of a long day.

In the case of No. 5 above, doing so DOES show the restaurant how cheap you are (as well as being a jerk), BUT . . . were I the waiter / sommelier / manager / owner of the establishment, I would NEVER comment upon the wine, but would indeed open it, serve it with NO snide remarks, NO withering looks, and I'd charge the corkage fee indicated on the wine list.

In the case of No. 4, this is something I do frequently with my friends. (We all are, or were, ITB.) In cases such as this, we are all bringing in older, more rare bottles and, as always, I share a glass with the waitstaff and the chef.

In the case of No. 3 -- well, I don't have massive amounts of wine, but I do have a lot of older bottles that are ready to drink. This leads to sometimes bring bottles to restaurants, sometimes opening up really pricey bottles with a Monday night dinner at home. Either way, I make sure the chef gets a glass!

In the case of No. 2, I honestly will do this sometime, but generally I try not to patronize the restaurant, period. If I do, I make it a point to ask WHY the wines are marked up so outrageously, and point out that -- if they weren't -- I'd would be much more likely to a regular diner, AND would recommend this restaurant to my friends. As it is, however . . . .

And in the case of No. 1, it's perfectly understandable, and this is why many people BYOB (along with No. 2).

Generally speaking, whether I'm bringing in a bottle that's $100 retail or $15 retail is irrelevant. For me, the reason for bringing a wine into a restaurant is because a) it has matured in my cellar and is now ready to drink; and b) it will compliment the cuisine of this restaurant. Saving money doesn't enter into it *directly* -- clearly it does on some level, in that I probably could not afford to buy the bottle were it on the wine list, BUT then again, it NEVER is on the wine list! If it is, I do not open my bottle.

On the other hand, I cannot recall ever being handed a wine list where I didn't find something that I felt was a great deal . . . and I'm not talking about a 1893 Ch. d'Yquem that was priced for only $3,000. That would be a deal, but it wouldn't be affordable -- least not for me! I mean something that is VERY good, REASONABLY priced, and WITHIN my budget.

Cheers,
Jason

[climberdoc]

Good post zin!

In regards to #5: What if instead of the two buck chuck you bring a $15 bottle of amazing syrah from Languedoc which drinks as well as many $50 wines? The wine has not been "graced" by an above 90 pt score from WS and is a relative unknown. You've decided that the wine is ageworthy and have a case in your cellar to drink over the next 15 years or so. There are no wines on the list less than $100. Corkage is $50. Should I just expect eye rolling from the som and just brush it off? Am I being a cheap? Should I just forget about it and pay a couple hundred bucks for a wine that I may not enjoy as much as my $15 gem?

I've actually never been in this situation. What I'm hearing in this thread is that bringing inexpensive wines to restaurants is looked down upon regardless of the wine's actual quality. That stinks of wine snobbery which drives many potential wine drinkers to stick with martinis and beer.

[zin1953]

>>> What I'm hearing in this thread is that bringing inexpensive wines to restaurants is looked down upon regardless of the wine's actual quality. That stinks of wine snobbery which drives many potential wine drinkers to stick with martinis and beer. <<<

Then, clearly, you're not reading all of my posts.

MOST of the wines I have in my cellar are much closer to the $15-20 range than the $100 range. Indeed, I have approximately 60-70 cases, and I haven't paid more than $60 for any of the bottles in my cellar, with the possible exception of a bottle of Champagne or two. Even the bottles of Vintage Porto didn't cost me more than $60 . . .

I've been known to buy cases of $15 bottles to cellar -- and less! Indeed, I finished the last bottle of my 1978 Guigal Côtes-du-Rhône rouge in 1998, and those were selling for $3.99!

To heck with the "amazing syrah from the Languedoc." (And, for that matter, who cares if it "drinks as well as many $50 wines"? I don't know what that even means! What's important is if you like it. Period!) Just take a wine from Corbières or Montpeyroux, a wine from the Alentejo or the Estremadura . . . or from a small producer ANYWHERE . . . it doesn't matter.

But, again, WHY are you bringing it? If you were bringing your "$15 bottle of amazing syrah from Languedoc which drinks as well as many $50 wines" -- in other words, because you love it! -- aren't you REALLY bringing in that bottle of wine for Reason No. 3, rather than Reason No. 5?

What you ARE hearing in this thread is that bringing inexpensive wines to restaurants BECAUSE they are inexpensive is looked down upon. Bringing a good wine to a restaurant REGARDLESS OF PRICE is NEVER looked down upon . . .

Like I said in the beginning, "BYOB is, or rather can be, a double-edged sword. One thing to look at is WHY -- why does one BYOB to a restaurant?"

Cheers,
Jason

[steve999]

"One thing to look at is WHY -- why does one BYOB to a restaurant?"

I only BYOB at places that don't sell wine, but the laws are different here. I believe it is illegal in the city of Boston to BYOB whether they have a license to sell or not. However, some of the places outside of the city allow you to bring in your own.

If there's nothing I like on a wine list or the markups are ridiculous - I just don't order wine. Mixed drinks and iced tea can also be good with a meal.

[zin1953]

There is a Chinese place just outside of Chinatown where I've BYOB'd in Boston, but that's the only place I know of -- other than, you're right -- outside of the city itself.

Just one example of how difficult life can be with Federal, State, and in many cases, LOCAL laws affecting wine sales and consumption differently depending upon one's location at the time . . .

Cheers,
Jason

[dinwiddie]

I agree with you Jason. In DC, only restaurants with an alcohol license are allowed to permit BYOB. I frequently get together with friends who are also wine geeks and we bring lots of wine with us. There are several restaurants that we frequent that actively seek our business. In addition, I can think of several restaurants that charge zero corkage of certain nights (usually Monday and Tuesday) because it brings business into the restaurant on days that they are normally very slow. And restaurants that permit BYO seem to be glad that we come. After all, we can eat somewhere else, and wine types often spend more on their meals than the average diner.

I tend to collect small production wines, and I just can't find them on wine lists here on the east coast. I would much prefer to drink it with a good meal than to have to eat my own cooking all the time (and I am a fairly good cook). A couple of weeks ago I took a Kosta Browne PN with me to a nice place to have dinner with my wife before going to a concert. The manager walked by, looked at what I had brought, and said that he loved that wine. I offered a glass to him. When the bill came, there was no charge for the corkage, which was normally $20. I thought that a fair trade.

[zin1953]

>>> When the bill came, there was no charge for the corkage . . . <<<

A not all that uncommon experience, and one which many smart managers/owners are adopting . . . I have no doubt -- with or without a bottle of your own -- you'll be dining at that restaurant again . . .

As I've often said in terms of retail wine sales, "You can sell anyone anything -- once! The trick is to keep that individual as a REPEAT customer."

Waiving a corkage fee doesn't cost the restaurant anything (the labor costs of washing a few wine glasses is all). but it certainly goes a long way in making one feel good about the establishment!

Cheers,
Jason

[climberdoc]

dinwiddie

So you brought a bottle of KB which retails for anywhere from $60 to $150 per bottle and the corkage fee was waived. Uh dude, that happens all the time. So you need to bring KB in order to gain the respect of the staff and have the corkage waived? What if you brought a bottle of KB before it became the overhyped, overpriced, overscored, syrah-tainted fruitbomb that the current vintages are? I'm guessing the staff would turn their noses at your offer to taste it and you'd have a bill which was $20 higher than you paid.

Just so you know, the 2005 KB Koplen Vineyard is arguably the finest wine I've experienced.

[zin1953]

>>> What if you brought a bottle of KB before it became the overhyped, overpriced, overscored, syrah-tainted fruitbomb that the current vintages are? I'm guessing the staff would turn their noses at your offer to taste it and you'd have a bill which was $20 higher than you paid. <<<

Is this the same thing as "bring(ing) a $15 bottle of amazing syrah from Languedoc which drinks as well as many $50 wines"? Well, in my experience, there would be no difference.

You are correct about one thing: waiving corkage fees is something that happens all the time. As i said above, it is "not all that uncommon" for smart managers/owners to waive the fee.

* Sometimes it happens because you share a glass with the staff.
* Sometimes it's waived because you buy a bottle of the list, too -- in addition to the bottle you bring in (e.g.: you bring in an amazing bottle of Syrah from the Languedoc, and you buy a bottle of Champagne to start off the meal).
* Sometimes it's waived because you are a "regular" patron of the restaurant.
* Sometimes it's waived because it's a Tuesday night, and the restaurant waives corkage for EVERYONE on Tuesday nights.

There is nothing mandated by law about charging a corkage fee -- only about whether BYOB itself is allowed -- so a restaurant creates its own corkage policy, and they can honor it, change it, break it at any time. But bringing a bottle of Kosta Brown is just as valid a reason as bringing in an amazing bottle of $15 Syrah from the Languedoc . . .

I sincerely DOUBT that dinwiddie felt a "need to bring KB in order to gain the respect of the staff and have the corkage waived." I have always found that the waiving of a corkage fee relies much more on your relationship with the staff, rather than any specific wine one brings to dinner.

Cheers,
Jason

[climberdoc]

I sincerely DOUBT that dinwiddie felt a "need to bring KB in order to gain the respect of the staff and have the corkage waived."

Such an optimist zin.

Getting a spot on the KB waiting list is substantially more difficult than getting tickets to a Miley Cyrus show. For all I know, dinwiddie could be the winemaker at KB or more likely some regular guy trying to inflate his ego by flaunting the fact that he actually owns such a sought after bottle. Maybe he doesn't have any KB at all;he just wishes he did. The great thing about the internet is you can be anyone you want to be.

So zin. I'm confused about where the line of "cheapness", "tackyness",etc. is crossed. If the staff has never heard of my $15 bottle, how do they know it's not some swill I picked up on the way to the restaurant at the Circle K? Say I go through your proposed routine and order a bottle off the menu, share a glass with the staff, etc. If they still perceive my special $15 bottle as cheap then I will be perceived as a "cheapskate".

I'm not arguing about the validity of corkage fees. I really couldn't care less about whether a $20 to $50 charge gets added on to a bill that dwarfs those charges. My issue is with the insane, unwarranted markups on restaurant wine as well as the widespread acceptance of this system. Why are people so willing to bend over and accept this?

Why should I pay restaurant prices when I possess wines of equal or better quality in my cellar regardless of the price. It seems to me that restaurants have created a system that discourages against bringing one's own wine. If one does bring their own wine, then the system makes them stop and think about how the wine will be perceived by the staff and whether that perception will affect the entire dining experience. One can easily avoid this by coming into the restaurant waving your Miley Cyrus tickets.

[zin1953]

1) My name is Jason. I regularly use my name at the end of every post.

2) >>> For all I know, dinwiddie could be the winemaker at KB . . . <<< Uh, no. He isn't. He lives in or around Washington DC.

3) >>> . . . or more likely some regular guy trying to inflate his ego by flaunting the fact that he actually owns such a sought after bottle. Maybe he doesn't have any KB at all;he just wishes he did.<<< Then, you clearly haven't been reading very many of his posts, either.

3) >>> If the staff has never heard of my $15 bottle, how do they know it's not some swill I picked up on the way to the restaurant at the Circle K? <<< Again, if the staff has never heard of your $15 bottle, how do they know it's $15?

4) >>> My issue is with the insane, unwarranted markups on restaurant wine as well as the widespread acceptance of this system. Why are people so willing to bend over and accept this? <<<

And finally we get to the crux of the issue, which is restaurant markups -- a topic that has been discussed many times on Chowhound, let alone on every "dedicated" wine board (e.g.: Squires/Parker, Garr's WLDG, the Spectator site, etc.).

People accept restaurant markups on wines because:

a) The restaurant's patrons are not "into" wine, and they simply they don't think about it one way or the other -- in the same way that many people don't think about "argi-business" vs. "sustainable" farming, or whether that particular fish species is threatened, etc., etc. -- they simply order a meal. It is "not on their radar," so to speak.

b) They have no choice: BYOB is completely illegal where they live. A corollary to this is that they are into wine, but BYOB is only permitted in establishments that do NOT have a license to serve alcoholic beverages -- and they are dining at a restaurant which *does*.

c) They have more money than Bill Gates, and simply don't care what the price is (obviously this will apply to VERY few people). A corollary to this would be that they're on an expense account, and couldn't care less how much things cost -- think of those Barclays' employees who spent thousands on bottles of Pétrus in London, and then got fired when their company found out!

d) They don't know that BYOB is legal where they live, and so do not know that's an option.

e) They know that BYOB is a possibility (after all, the menu reads "Corkage, $25; Cakeage, $5 per person"), but they do not have a collection of bottles at home -- one of which they would bring to the restaurant that evening.

f) Even though the restaurant is located within a jurisdiction where BYOB is legal, the restaurant itself does not permit it, or limits the number of bottles of wine a party can bring to the restaurant. On a personal note, that is the one restaurant policy that REALLY irritates me: a party of two or a party of twelve -- both are limited to two bottles??? Doesn't make sense to me!

g) There are more important issues demanding their attention than how much that bottle of Cabernet costs wholesale, retail, and/or on the wine list.

h) They hate the markup on wines, but figure either that there is little/nothing they can do about it, or that it really isn't that big of a deal in the grand, overall scheme of things. Besides, if they were really that concerned about restaurant markups, they wouldn't order cocktails, iced tea, or coffee in a restaurant -- ALL of which have higher markups than do wine lists.

h) They know all about BYOB; they bring wines to restaurants on some evening, but not every single time they dine out -- even if coming from home (rather than, say, from the office); and besides, there are some very good buys on the wine list.

5) >>> Why should I pay restaurant prices when I possess wines of equal or better quality in my cellar regardless of the price. <<< No one said you should, and no one is making you do so . . .

6) >>> If one does bring their own wine, then the system makes them stop and think about how the wine will be perceived by the staff and whether that perception will affect the entire dining experience. <<< Mmmmm, I've never experienced that.

Cheers,
Jason

[climberdoc]

Jason

Got to go to work. Will respond tonight. Great posts!

[dinwiddie]

climberdoc,

I don't normally reply to posts that have addressed me personally, but . . .

I don't have to bring a bottle of KB to get the corkage waived, it just so happened that the my most recent experience was with the KB Sonoma Coast. Yes the manager was impressed, but I've impressed some sommeliers with other, less known wines too. Last week I took a 2004 A Donkey and Goat Chardonnay Brosseau with me to dinner with friends. The manager and the sommelier hadn't heard of it. However, as is my habit, I offered them a glass and yes, the corkage fee was comped. In addition, there are several restaurants that I go to regularly where I sometimes buy from the list, and sometimes I bring wines. I am seldom charged a corkage fee (usually I'm charged when the owner isn't around and the server doesn't know me) If the fee is waived, great. If it isn't that is ok too. I never go anywhere expecting the corkage fee to be waived, no matter how well I know the owner.

I collect small production PNs as my hobby (hey everyone needs a hobby.) I am fortunate to be on the KB list, but then, I got on before the wine was hyped like it is, that is one of the advantages of being a major wine geek and taking a chance on new , small production wineries . Sometimes you win (like KB) and somtimes you find that you are not that impressed with the wine and don't buy it anymore.

Like Jason said, I live in the DC area (I am not a winemaker) and have for many years. And yes the KB Koplen Vineyard is a superb wine, although to my taste the Kanzler is a little better. However, it is all a matter of taste, many of my friends don't like the "syrah-tainted fruitbomb" style of the KBs and have dropped from the list. And for purposes of full disclosure, I've met Michael Browne on a couple of occasions and shared a meal with him here in DC with other wine-geek friends. But, like I said, I'm a wine geek, we regularly have dinners with winemakers when they are in town.

[dinwiddie]

BTW, my name is Bob. I actually live in Montgomery County, Maryland right outside of DC and work in DC proper. Because I live in Maryland, I'm much more likely to eat there and thus do not take a bottle of wine with me as corkage is not permitted in MoCo (and because the county is the only legal seller of wine to restaurant, good, well priced winelists are also rare.).

[Bill Hunt]

In the few BYOB situations, I plan on sharing. Usually, a pour for the server, the sommelier, and one back to the chef.

In my very few instances, I have yet to be charged a corkage, but these are rare wines, and then I do not do this very often.

Recently, at a non-BYOB restaurant, we had a lovely white Burg, and our server expressed an interest in our wine order. As the meal wound down, I offered her a glass, so she could taste it. She was overwhelmed, that we would share a US$250/btl (their list) wine with her. She had barely experienced white Burg, and this was a real keeper. I do not think that anything was written off, but she was very excited at the prospect. She was good, and was interested. We had to drive back down the Island. To me, it was a win-win. I do this all of the time, and most are greatly appreciative.

Hunt

[Pigloader]

Climberdoc--
I'm re-entering the fray, admittedly, 2 months late, but I'm feeling compelled to answer--
I am not standing in defense of restaurants who charge exorbitant markups. If I eat at one and see a winelist like that, I won't eat there again. Simple enough. I will stand in defense of those that mark their wine up in keeping with industry standard, on the basis of the criteria I listed in my earlier post. Storage, glassware, wine lists, etc. all cost money. Often, the wine list is where the profit margin for a restaurant lies (well, there and vegetarian entrees, but that's another story). Don't forget, you're not washing a dish, you're not clearing a table... hell, you're not even opening your own bottle of wine. Don't these tasks merit some remuneration? I have no problem with a wine list that allows those costs to be laid into the margins of its bottles.

Also, perhaps it was presumptuous on my part, but I had hoped it was clear that the wines I was talking about were more in line with your KJs, your Taluses, etc. If you have a '$15 wine that drinks like one 3x the price' then (if it were my resto, anyway) by all means bring it in-- I might even want to feature it on my list. But why is it not ok, then, to pay $25 for a similarly cool bottle at a resto (which is more in line with a reasonable markup) if the wine director has made this discovery for you, recommended it with your meal, and gone through the other details of proper wine service?

I think my initial reaction and post were based on the idea of bringing a cheap (notice i did not say 'inexpensive') bottle in solely to save money. If you are that hard up (and believe me, I am--I haven't gone out for a nice dinner in months), go eat somewhere that you can afford. Better yet, pay retail for your food and for your wine and enjoy your meal at home. Isn't that in effect the same argument? Why is it that the skill and hard work of the chef and cooks can merit $30 for a steak, but the skill of the sommelier and waitstaff are to be ignored?

[duck833]

Back to the thread title - saving money eating out:

1. When we travel we frequently will choose to eat a late lunch. Most places have lower prices at lunch than during the evening service. We have had wonderful two hour lunches in France for much less than if we had been there for dinner. We recently did the same thing before we caught a flight in Scottsdale, we knew there would be nothing at the airport and of course the plane so we just dined early. Their menu listed the dinner and lunch prices.

2. Skip the dessert - If you read and post on this forum you probably don't need the calories anyway. If you do get dessert, split one.

3. Skip the high priced bottled water they are pushing, drink the free stuff.

4. Consider having a drink or a glass of wine at home before you go out, lots cheaper than the bar. The booze at home is the same as at the bar.

[brendastarlet]

Those are all good ideas, although you're a little presumptuous to make that declaration about people who post here. Especially at a restaurant with a notable pastry chef, I'll save up calories to enjoy a nice ending to the meal. It's also healthier, in the long run, to eat your sweet at the conclusion of a meal than hours later, since it keeps your blood sugar at an even keel.

That said, I would add the following phrases to my vocabulary:
1) "We'll go with tap, please."
2) "May I have a taste of (fill in the blank) first?" This might help you make up your mind between the $7 a glass wine and the $12 wine.
3) "Do you have half orders?"
4) "Just pour two inches. I'd like to savor it through the meal." (Must be done before a server dumps half a bottle of wine into your glass in hopes of getting you to buy more.)
5) "We're going to do appetizers tonight."

and finally,
6) "I'd like the cheeseburger Happy Meal."

[vickib]

My motive for BYOB is about the kind of wine I like to drink. My preference is for old world wines, many from the Loire, Rhone, and Burgundy. Living in California, most moderately, and many higher priced restaurants around me have wine lists heavy on New World wines from the West Coast, which I frankly don't usually enjoy. It's a bonus that I generally save money, even paying corkage. But, that's secondary. I've never had wait staff comment one way or the other about what I drink, and I like to share a glass with the chef. Maybe, if I do this enough, I can influence the contents of some of the lists!

[dinwiddie]

As usual, I agree with Jason. I don't bring a bottle of wine to a restaurant that permits corkage because I want to save money, I bring wine because I have a lot of nice, small production wines that I want to drink with a good meal. However, I always tip extra well to reflect the fact that I didn't buy a bottle from the list and thus the server would have gotten a larger tip if I had. (Not that I don't buy wine from the list, I do at least half the time I eat out instead of bringing my own wine.) Also, as any sommelier will tell you, a sip is not a tip. Yes I share my wine with my server, the sommelier, or the manager (or sometimes all three) but I do that because I believe good wine is meant to be shared. Heck, I've been known to share it with the folks at the table next to me.

[zin1953]

Absolutely! (And said much better than I . . . )

[Bill Hunt]

One problem with BYOB is that state, and county laws differ, as do the individual policeis set by the hose.

On Maui recently, I had a nice DRC PN and a lovely Montrachet. It began to look like we would not be able to drink them, so I called the restaurant, where we were dining with friends from O`ahu. Unfortunately, the county of Maui has a NO BYOB policy. On any other Island, I'd have been OK, especially as neither was on any list, and we were going to be ordering other wines for the evening - shipped home, along with some Turley Hayne Vineyard, that I scored at Mr Wine.

AZ has strict BYOB laws, that are based on the liquor license, and the number of tables.

Other states/counties vary.

In all of my years, I think that I have brought 3-4 bottles (none on any list), and have called twice.

Can be nice, but there are limitations. One must check carefully.

I'd also suggest not bringing a bottle to TJ's clearance wine.

Hunt

[invinotheresverde]

Bill,

MA might be even worse than AZ! I've seen byob, but only at places that have no license at all. Stupid puritanical state...

[dinwiddie]

Gee, you should be in Maryland. Not only is it a felony state for shipping, in Montgomery County (the largest and wealthiest county in the state) BYOB is illegal. Otherwise, in MD, the restaurant must obtain a BYO license. (Of course this is sometimes ignored by restaurants, especially if they know you.) In DC, only restaurants WITH an ABC license may offer the option of corkage. Technically it is illegal in Virginia.

[dinwiddie]

Actually, the way they do it in MA is more common than not.

[invinotheresverde]

Perhaps, but there byo places are few and far between. It's nothing like Philly, for example, where restaurants advertise the byo.. In fact, in the small city I live near, I don't know of a single byo establishment. They're a real rarity in glorious ol' MA.

[dinwiddie]

invinothersverde,

I don't know where in MA you live, but you might try looking for a place on www.gobyo.com

[invinotheresverde]

Thanks. You can usually BYO at a place that has no liquor license. If the establishment has a liquor license and still allows BYO they're breaking the law.

[dinwiddie]

Many states are like that. Funny thing, DC is just the opposite. A restaurant may not offer a corkage option unless they have an alcohol license. The thinking is that there should be a trained alcohol manager on site if they are allowing patrons to drink.

[zin1953]

Depends upon the jurisidiction. In California, that is NOT true at all.

The problem with generalizations in the wine/alcoholic beverage trade is that you are not only dealing with Federal laws . . . you are not only dealing with Federal and State laws . . . but in many cases, it varies from county-to-county within states, and sometimes down to the city level.

Cheers,
Jason

[invinotheresverde]

We were talking about MA. :)

[Bill Hunt]

Zin,

Good point. We travel to Hawai`i at least once per year (for about the last 30), and always have wine. In most of the Hawaiian counties, one can arrange for BYOW, and in most, one can have a bottle sealed to take back.

Just returned from Maui. Both policies are distinctly forbidden in Maui County. OK, did not recall that. Now I know. As I am not normally a BYOW person, I guess that I did not have reason to ask before. In my case, I just shipped the two "extra" bottles back to myself on the Mainland, plus a couple of bottles of Turley Hayne, that I could not even get, though I am on their list - hey, the price was good, and the shipping was not as much, as I had anticipated. Still, I had a nice DRC and a Chassagne-Montrachet, that I would have liked to share with my guests over from O`ahu. Well, I'll toast to them from the Mainland.

Federal - State - County - City, it can differ. One needs to verify, before they assume. Gotta' know the laws, down to the township.

Hunt

[c oliver]

Here's a link to a blog by Michael Bauer, food editor of the SF Chronicle, regarding rising wine prices at restaurants. I thought it was interesting:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/s...

(hope this link works; it was a little odd to deal with)

[hopegoode]

Thanks to dinwiddie for his BYOB website- I found restaurants listed in my Manhattan neighborhood that I never knew were open to bringing wine!

[dinwiddie]

Check with the restaurant first. Sometimes the info is out of date or just plain wrong. But at least it can point you toward a restaurant that you can call and ask.