574432 Sat Nov 22 16:03:05 -0800 2008 38 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 4194743 We had dinner at Blue Hill At Stone Barns the other night. What an amazing place, and yet they keep the dining room so dim that we have to have flashlights to see our food! And the flashlights are so dim they are no help reading the menu. But, then, you have no choices so why do they give you a menu anyway? We ate there before, just over a year ago, and I liked it - except for the darkness, I wrote the restaurant about that, but received no response - but, I just realized the other night that almost everything is "cooked" sous vide. I don't like sous vide. Everything feels the same in your mouth. It is too perfect looking and uniform feeling. I am not confident with the health safety issues. I think it is icky. And I strongly believe that if a restaurant is going to serve you sous vide food you should be told (warned) in advance. The first time that I was aware of having sous vide was at The French Laundry. We were so looking forward to the lamb dish! And it arrived, perfect, uniform, blah. We were shocked. I did not realize that it was sous vide until later. I called the restaurant a few weeks after we dined there and they confirmed it was a sous vide preperation. When you go to a restaurant they tell you if your meat or seafood is grilled or steamed or baked - sometimes they even give you a choice - but sous vide is kept secret until you ask "how did you cook this?" Life is messy. So should be food. I don't like sous vide. I don't want to eat it. Is it taking over? Is there anyway - other than letters that will be ignored - of letting the restaurants know that not everyone is taken in by this emperor's new clothes of cooking? Sat Nov 22 16:03:05 -0800 2008 44601 cayuga 1 4194847 There's a step missing here: 1. you don't like sous vide because it tastes blah (among other reasons). 2. Blue Hill (apparently) cooks most of their dishes sous vide. 3. you liked the food at Blue Hill. Eh? Sat Nov 22 17:07:53 -0800 2008 4194743 173346 Amadaun 2 4195543 I was not clear. I liked the experience. The farm at BH@SB is remarkable, beautiful, inspiring. We spent a long afternoon touring and studying the farm, admiring the gardens, and watching the pigs wallow. I bought some delicious and beautiful produce at the little "farmer's market". The buildings are stunning and the restorations done to them are well-done. Afterward, we had dinner. So, yes, it really is a remarkable experience. The sous vide portions of the food are served with sauces and vegetables, so there are good flavours and bites around the unfortunate textures. When I experienced that texture and mouth-feel before I thought it was just my reaction to a certain cut or preparation. And politely removed the meat to my companion's plate. I did not realize that it was the way all the protein was supposed to be like. Also, the wine was good and the bread was really good, so my objection is to just the sous vide portion of the meal and experience at BH-etc. That, and the dim lighting. Sun Nov 23 07:13:47 -0800 2008 4194847 44601 cayuga 1 4194993 It sounds to me like they didn't reheat long enough. When restaurants don't - and it happens often - that's the sort of feeling you get. Like something cut nicely and prepared as you would like it, and still tender, but not fresh out of the oven. If it was firmly just kinda warm, it's not right. They don't inform you because it's really frowned upon by the board of health (and entirely against health code in most municipalities), and rightly so, for the reasons you already know. The issue I have with it (and I do it at home for my friends and family rather than at work for my guests,) is that every dittohead chef in the country now feels the need to cook this way. Sat Nov 22 18:29:00 -0800 2008 4194743 102066 almansa 2 4195561 Interesting, thanks. Yes, the sv chicken was served after a sv walleye. It looked the same, like a squared off marshmallow. It needed some crunch, crisp, carmelization, chickenizing! Just not right. Thanks. Sun Nov 23 07:25:20 -0800 2008 4194993 44601 cayuga 1 4195070 Yes, you don't go to restaurants that serve food cooked sous vide. Sat Nov 22 19:13:52 -0800 2008 4194743 80141 ccbweb 2 4195526 Right, how do you do that? The restaurants don't tell you in advance. They don't advertise it. It is not on the menu. I was surprised to find that a place like BH@SB would use that technique. The farm, the gardens, the natural process of how the food is grown, did not lead me to suspect that they would then process the harvest in plastic bags. If restaurants don't tell you, how do you avoid it? Sun Nov 23 07:02:58 -0800 2008 4195070 44601 cayuga 3 4195665 Stick with taco trucks :) Sun Nov 23 08:27:35 -0800 2008 4195526 12139 paulj 3 4195860 Call and ask. Or don't go to restaurants. I mean, the way you've set this one up is impossible, literally. If you can't know in advance and/or you believe they won't tell you that they use the technique then there's no way you could possibly choose a restaurant that meets your preferences. Thus, don't go. Or, call and ask and if you believe them or believe that you will have sufficient choices of food prepared the way you'd prefer, then go as usual. Sun Nov 23 10:19:31 -0800 2008 4195526 80141 ccbweb 4 4198743 Exactly. Mon Nov 24 13:45:32 -0800 2008 4195860 10763 Miss Needle 1 4195222 Yes, sous vide is a desperate alternative for mediocre chefs looking to hawk a gimmick, rather than good food. But if you call a restaurant they're rather obligated to give you a straight answer. And if I don't like a restaurant I just kiss it off. Sat Nov 22 21:29:39 -0800 2008 4194743 55316 mpalmer6c 2 4195567 Thanks. I think I will kiss off the restaurant BH@SB. But not their farm and gardens! The servers acted so uncomfortable and suspicious when I asked how the food was prepared. I got the impression that they thought I was out to get them - but I just wanted to know how a piece of chicken could look and taste the way they served it. Yes, in the future I will ask when I make reservations. My fear now is that the sloppy, messy, not so precise, chefs in the rural-ish area I live in will take up the technique and there will be deadly and icky consequences. Sun Nov 23 07:30:38 -0800 2008 4195222 44601 cayuga 2 4195861 Except, of course, if the restaurant isn't advertising that they use it, then they're not possibly hawking a gimmick. Sun Nov 23 10:20:17 -0800 2008 4195222 80141 ccbweb 1 4195234 Sous vide is a method. It can be done poorly or well. But saying that you don't like sous vide is like saying that you don't like braising. It's a silly statement. If you're concerned about food safety, educate yourself. Not on the local health department's regulations, but on microbiology. The information is readily available. FWIW, you probably don't want to eat a rare burger that's been cooked sous vide. A rack of lamb, on the other hand, is a whole 'nother matter. It's true that lots of bad food has been prepared sous vide. In fact, its primary application is still institutional. Most stuff you got served on airplanes (when airlines still served food) was prepared sous vide. There's nothing "emperor's new clothes" about it. It's a well-established cooking method. Avoid places that do it poorly, just as you'd avoid places that can't pan-roast or bake things properly. But don't avoid the method. Done well, it's part of a good chef's repertoire. Sat Nov 22 21:43:08 -0800 2008 4194743 58743 alanbarnes 2 4195475 "saying that you don't like sous vide is like saying that you don't like braising. It's a silly statement." I agree completely AB. As usual your post was spot on Sun Nov 23 06:26:56 -0800 2008 4195234 89493 scubadoo97 3 4196564 At least when you have a braised dish they tell you that it is so. Sous vide is kind of a secret. They tell you if you ask. I don't like food preparation to be a secret. Sun Nov 23 16:42:01 -0800 2008 4195475 44601 cayuga 2 4195557 I understand that it is a method. I am very well-educated, in general and in regards to sous vide. Sous vide and braising cannot be compared - and I would not make snide remarks towards someone who didn't like braising, we are all entitled to our own tastes and preferences, and if someone said that they do not like braising it is not silly it is a personal expression. I explained some of my objections to sous vide. And my reasons are not silly. They are personal. I have had rack of lamb done sous vide at The French Laundry and found it repulsive. If I did not like braised food and I was in a restaurant that offered a braised dish vs. a grilled dish, I could avoid the braised dish. You cannot do that with sous vide. It's hush hush. I'm not telling you or others that they should avoid food prepared that way. But I find it to be a great boon to restaurants and a loss to this particular consumer. I'd prefer to avoid it. Sun Nov 23 07:23:04 -0800 2008 4195234 44601 cayuga 3 4195666 HELLO, MY NAME IS JFOOD AND I DO NOT LIKE SOUS VIDE. There he feels better as well, so silly him, oy. jfood agrees with you on sous vide and avoids whenever possible. The texture reminds jfood of the liver his mother made growing up, blech. If people like that good for them, jfood will do a snagglepuss as well. Give him a good solid braise anytime, now that's cooking. And again, jfood turned down another invite to BH on Friday night. He knows he will probably not enjoy as much as others and the drive and cost does not make him want to venture that faqr for that much. Sun Nov 23 08:27:44 -0800 2008 4195557 11290 jfood 3 4196604 If you're well educated with regard to sous vide, then you probably know that food can be prepared at any temperature short of boiling for any length of time, and other cooking methods (roasting, sauteeing, deep-frying) can be used in conjunction with sous vide. Thus, there is a huge range of flavors and textures that can be produced by sous vide cooking. Because the range is so great, it is improbable that you actually dislike all of those dishes. Based on comments in your follow-up posts, it appears that you dislike the stuff that has been cooked with a long, low-temp bath and nothing else. I'm not a big fan of that application, myself. Done well it tends to be uninspiring; done poorly (as it all too often is), the flavor and texture of the food are dreadful. But that doesn't that sous vide can't produce some delicious results. I'd be willing to bet that you've unknowingly eaten plenty of food in which sous vide cooking has played some role. You may have even enjoyed some of it. Sun Nov 23 17:03:48 -0800 2008 4195557 58743 alanbarnes 4 4201989 don't hate the technique, hate the hack who prepares it badly. like all techniques good chefs are either masterfull or not. french laundry, blue hill, give it a name. poor execution is just that. Tue Nov 25 16:19:51 -0800 2008 4196604 239254 heredia76 1 4202154 I think it's perfectly legit to say you don't like sous vide as a cooking preparation, in particular it sounds like the OP is saying he doesn't like meat/protein done that way. Perhaps having veggies or some other foods done that way (assuming they cook other things besides protein sous vide) might be pleasant. I can see what the OP and jfood are saying about the texture being unpleasant with meat, especially if you are looking for the nice mouth-feel of something char-broiled, braised, fried, whatever. For example, I am not a big fish lover, but I love fried fish. I could eat just about any fish breaded and fried, except salmon, which has too strong of a flavor for me to like in any preparation. I *can* eat fish grilled, but I eat about 1/4 the amount. Poached fish, forget about it, can't eat it. Maybe one bite. Sous vide fish I would NOT like, I wouldn't even bother trying it. It's a texture issue. To me, it's "interesting" but if I were brought my protein before dinner and asked a choice of several ways I'd like it to be prepared, sous vide would be last. I don't want meat cooked in a water bath inside a plastic bag, it's just not going to have a pleasant texture to me, the texture I want when I eat meat. And I don't get the point of "starting" it sous vide then finishing another more conventional way. If the finishing method is necessary to make the dish palatable for diners, perhaps the sous vide method of starting it isn't such a good idea after all? Tue Nov 25 17:48:07 -0800 2008 4194743 19518 rockandroller1 2 4202196 "And I don't get the point of "starting" it sous vide then finishing another more conventional way. If the finishing method is necessary to make the dish palatable for diners, perhaps the sous vide method of starting it isn't such a good idea after all?" You have hit the vacuum sealed plastic bag on the head. (Duck!!! What a mess: sorta like Gallagher whacking that watermelon w/ a mallet...) Adam Tue Nov 25 18:07:44 -0800 2008 4202154 154787 adamshoe 2 4202357 One thing that a lot of chefs seem to be doing lately is cooking meat at low temperature until it turns to mush. IMHO, that's just bad cooking. But you can ruin a dish on the stovetop or in the oven just as easily (and much more quickly) as in a sous vide bath. Bad cooking has far less to do with the cooking implement than with the cook. And I can't agree with you that using two cooking methods in preparing a single dish means that one of them was a bad idea in the first place. A braise is by definition a combination of high dry heat (the browning phase) and low wet heat (the stewing phase). The classic way to pan-roast a steak is to start it in a hot skillet on the stove and finish it in the oven. Many people roast beef or poultry starting at high temperatures and finishing at low temperatures (or vice versa). And let's don't even get started with Chinese cookery, where vegetables routinely get a quick dip in boiling water before being stir-fried. The point of starting food sous vide and finishing it with high heat is simple. Sous vide results in very even cooking with minimal loss of fat and moisture. High heat results in caramelization. Sometimes you want both of those things in the same dish. A classic application is foie gras - if you cook it over medium-high heat until it's done, you'll see shrinkage of up to 50% or more. George Pralus discovered 30+ years ago that If you cook it sous vide, there's almost no loss. You can then sear it with very high heat for a very short period of time to obtain a nice golden crust, and voila - delicious foie gras, and a lot more of it. Similarly, a rack of lamb can be put in a marinade and cooked sous vide to your desired degree of doneness (mid-rare for me, please). A quick finish on a grill or under a broiler, and you have perfect rosy meat that comes all the way out to the perfect brown exterior crust. What could be better? Starting a dish sous vide is especially useful in commercial kitchens, since you can use the method to cook food almost to completion and hold it there without overcooking. That rack of lamb is going to take half an hour if you roast it conventionally, more if you slow-roast it. But if it's sitting in a 125F bath, all it takes is a couple of minutes under the salamander and it's ready to go out the kitchen door. In short, sous vide is just one more tool in a chef's toolbox. There's nothing wonderful or terrible about it, any more than there's anything wonderful or terrible about a saute pan. What matters isn't the tool the chef chooses, but how s/he puts it to use. Tue Nov 25 19:09:34 -0800 2008 4202154 58743 alanbarnes 3 4208663 Thanks, you offer lots to consider. And, I agree, it's another "tool" and does not deserve to be exhaulted or snorted at. But, if a chef or restaurant is hiding the use of sous vide, it makes me uncomfortable and suspicious. I don't want to have to ask how a meat or fish was prepared. I don't want the waiter to look at me with suspicion and concern. I would like the information on the menu - or told to me when presented with the dish. I realize now that I have had sous vide fois gras - and enjoyed it. But, as someone who loves food and food preparation, it annoys me that I was not let in on the secret so that I could fully understand what I was eating - and that understanding is part of the enjoyment to me. Sat Nov 29 15:06:03 -0800 2008 4202357 44601 cayuga 4 4208684 It's also not the cooking method's fault that restaurants and waitstaff are -- at least in your experience -- being secretive about it. That's just bad service! Sat Nov 29 15:21:00 -0800 2008 4208663 10159 Ruth Lafler 1 4208753 Thomas Keller has a whole book out on sous vide. I'm not surprised The French Laundry would prepare food in this method. Sat Nov 29 16:02:05 -0800 2008 4194743 11701 MrsT 2 5123752 I hear the book is a best seller. ;) Thu Oct 22 16:17:56 -0700 2009 4208753 277493 DallasDude 3 5124159 DallasDude: Wow, sous vide lives on yet another thread! "It needed some crunch, crisp, carmelization, chickenizing!"(OP quote) to which I add "some heft, some chew, some beefiness." It's the current hot trend and chefs always want a reason to be hip and play. Wait a few years. Oh, I forgot-I caught Dinner Impossible last night on FN when I was trying to fall sleep and Robert Irvine butter-poached brisket. That's right. Thu Oct 22 18:58:33 -0700 2009 5123752 1095104 bushwickgirl 4 5124586 I love you, bushwickgirl, but wan't Irvine busted for fudging his resume? Erm, never mind. At least he's not Rachael Ray. Butter paoched brisket sound delicious. Fri Oct 23 01:31:24 -0700 2009 5124159 277493 DallasDude 5 5124971 That does sound good - sort of like confit de boeuf! Fri Oct 23 07:42:44 -0700 2009 5124586 14386 BobB 5 5125391 Thanks (blush!) The brisket looked beautiful, tender slicing but not falling apart. He put dry rub on them, which looked like 90% papricka, and submerged them in melted butter. Unfortuntely, I didn't see if they were oven poached or what (assume so). "confit de boeuf" as BobB says! Irvine's back in good graces with FN. Fri Oct 23 10:08:56 -0700 2009 5124586 1095104 bushwickgirl 2 5136342 I found the info in the other thread (that got shut down) quite interesting so I ordered the Thomas Keller book. Very good read, beautifuly pictures and totally impractical recipes (i.e. I would have no hope of reproducing them) but it did have a lot of good information. He writes about "overcooking" meats using sous vide, so that it still looks medium rare, but it will "feel overcooked and taste unpleasant". I wonder if that's what OP was referring to, it seems like some people think meats can be held at 140 degrees for long periods using sous vide because it stays at the constant medium-rare temperature. He also goes over the food safety procedures as well, and it sound pretty basic (serve immediately or chill using an ice bath for quickest cooling). I think it would be really interesting to experiment. I've had sous vide fish in a restaurant and I found it really good. The books says that fish can be cooked within 10-15 mins so it was likely only put into the water bath when I ordered it. I think it's a cooking/reheating method that has its place, avoiding sous vide is like avoiding microwaved. No restaurant will say it does it but you know they all do, and as long as it doesn't compromise the final product it really shouldn't matter. Tue Oct 27 20:47:28 -0700 2009 4208753 69044 hsk 3 5138708 I don't want to eat stuff that's been heated in plastic. Maybe that's just me. :-/ Wed Oct 28 16:39:28 -0700 2009 5136342 133381 mcf 1 5138690 We had an exquisite meal when we visited Nashville recently, at a newish place called Miel. Mrs. O's roasted chicken and a friend's grilled flatiron steak had both been precooked sous vide, then finished via oven and grill, respectively. There was nothing mushy or blah about either one - they tasted and chewed more or less as one would normally expect them to, but they had a depth of flavor and a kind of succulence that made them supernormal, I suppose you could say. While the menu does not mention the sous vide part of the process, the owners and the waiters will tell you about it readily. Long may they prosper - I want to go back next year! Wed Oct 28 16:33:40 -0700 2009 4194743 11478 Will Owen 1 5138845 Ugh. I had never heard of this till now....but I can tell you this: on the rare occasions I tried cooking something in MY cryovac'd bags (I have good quality vacuum sealer) I'm positive I could taste the plastic in the food. Why the HELL pay good money for what is, essentially, a "Boil In Bag" meal? What's next? Expensive "Shake And Bake" and "Jiffy-Pop"? Wed Oct 28 17:28:26 -0700 2009 4194743 70211 Beckyleach 2 5142027 Beckyleach, it's not the same thing as boiling in a bag. Essentially, the concept is that you slowly cook the food in water heated to the proper final temperature you want to achieve in the food. If you want your fish cooked to 140, you cook it in water kept at a tightly-controlled 140. It's a revelation when done right. I can still taste a piece of black cod I had years ago that had the most amazingly precise texture and seasoning. Will says it well: It's supernormal when done right. Thu Oct 29 21:26:33 -0700 2009 5138845 130151 dmd_kc 3 5142111 I would still wonder about off-gassing and transmission of the various compounds such as PVCs and so forth, that comprise the plastic, though, wouldn't you? I realize 140 degrees isn't *hot* hot, but I've had water from even high quality water bottles, for instance, that have gotten hot from sitting in the sun, and can taste the plastic. I'll guess I'll have to find a restaurant that does this well and see for myself. ;-) Thu Oct 29 22:52:00 -0700 2009 5142027 70211 Beckyleach 1 5143262 I think a chef's skill comes into play with sous vide just as with any other method of preparation. One fact that has to be dealt with is if the food is cooked to the perfect temperature, then it's going to start cooling between the moment it comes out of the sous vide bag and it's arrival on the diner's table - too cold. So, perhaps a quick saute in a pan will give the outside some character while raising the temperature enough to insure it's palatable to the diner. Fri Oct 30 10:57:31 -0700 2009 4194743 12752 MsDiPesto 1 5143339 Sous vide is only used in a (vast) minority of cuisines. Besides calling the restaurant ahead and checking if they do or do not use the technique, one can go for other cuisines to avoid it. Fri Oct 30 11:16:46 -0700 2009 4194743 10076 limster