572698 Sun Nov 16 11:17:15 -0800 2008 17 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 4177889 It's my first year ever to have thanksgiving and I'm excited and nervous about doing it right. I ordered a turkey from the turkey farm stand at Grand Army Plaza farmer's market in Brooklyn, at 2.99/lb. I told some people the price and they thought it was very overpriced. Having never bought a turkey, I didn't know any better. My question is, is there a big difference between frozen and fresh? I'd prefer organic, both in terms of hormones and free range (like to think the poor guy had a decent life until, well, until I had him slaughtered), but I can probably get a decent priced frozen organic turkey at Fairway. What do you think, is fresh worth the expense? Sun Nov 16 11:17:15 -0800 2008 40624 vvv03 1 4177974 If you're a person who pre-disposed to it; there can be a lot of pressure on making and serving your first Thanksgiving meal. Keeping it simple and using recipes form sources you can trust, and/or from people who's food you have eaten and loved will really help. Because we almost always ate "all together", I never minded making my home Thanksgivings a half-potluck, where I asked and encouraged the people who were coming to bring whatever dish they weren't gonna be able to live without haha. As far as the bird goes; assuming you're gonna by an organic turkey (good for you!); fresh will be easier and more delicious, but frozen will be great too - it's all up to the recipe and the cook ;o) I do think a digital read-out temperature gauge (oven and bird) with a long probe is a must. Just remember to keep it as simple as you can. make as much as you can ahead of time, and ask for help (especially with the gravy!!) from people who love you and who aren't control freaks ;o) Sun Nov 16 12:04:25 -0800 2008 4177889 234089 EmoryJ 1 4177992 One thing to keep in mind is that organic does not entail that the turkey is free range. It'll have more room than an industrial turkey, but won't necessarily be wandering idyllic pastures. If you haven't yet, you might want to ask the farmer that sold you the turkey about his/her farming practices, and the conditions the turkey's been in. And if you're considered a switch to Fairway, ask there as well. Not all organic birds are created equal - not just because of the fresh/frozen thing, but also because of the conditions in which they are raised. Personally, I'd take a frozen pastured turkey over a fresh barn-raised one, even if both were organic. But that's a reflection of my particular concerns and tastes. The more you know about the birds you're considering, the more comfortable you'll be making a choice (whatever that choice is). Sun Nov 16 12:18:28 -0800 2008 4177889 84143 chloe103 2 4178026 True. Many birds touted as "free range" never leave the coop/barn. Regulations state that they have to have access to the outdoors (like a tiny doorway through which many never pass), not that they actually roam in open pastures. Sun Nov 16 12:36:32 -0800 2008 4177992 76025 mojoeater 1 4177998 The Whole Foods where I live has organic turkeys for upwards of $4.49/lb. No way I'd pay that. Yours sounds much more reasonable. Sun Nov 16 12:20:15 -0800 2008 4177889 76025 mojoeater 1 4178102 I don't want to seem unresponsive BUT at 72 as a VERY experienced cook i think the following: i have never had a fresh organic turkey that compared in quality (eating wise) to a frozen Marval or Butterball at 47 to 97 cents per lb. These are pre basted/ brined birds. For years i got as a gift fresh organic birds. Until i started brineing them, friends and family were unimpressed. In serving food, i frankly and shamelessly don't care if the bird, lamb or veal calf was " happy" before it's demise. Of course, if this factor is important to you, fine. We pursue the industrial production of critters because most of us prefer the eating quality of the resulting product. I enjoy in my varied social circle a broad range of individuals ranging from those most concerned with animal welfare or healthful preparation to those more concerned with palatibilty. If one is less interested in the eating quality of an animal product than in it's welfare or eating quality ,that is your choice but don't invite me for an "evolved" dinner. Best. dick Sun Nov 16 13:13:42 -0800 2008 4177889 148516 mr jig 2 4178932 I promise, Dick. I am hardly as strict about source and practice in my food as I'd like to be; but knowing the practices of the top US animal food manufacturers, I have mostly chosen to stop buying theirs product for use in my kitchen. I think most people have no idea how their Butterball turkey, or any of their industrialized food creatures, gets to table; and that their appetite for the products might change if they did. Companies pursue their fast, cheap and easy, non-humane and almost exclusively non-union practices to improve the bottom line for the company, not because people prefer how a Hormel pig product tastes. What I want to know is why you would continue to accept and serve a gift you thought was so heinously second rate - is it because you are a gracious friend? I hope so. Sun Nov 16 20:24:55 -0800 2008 4178102 234089 EmoryJ 3 4178985 I've cooked both fresh and frozen organic turkeys with good results. If you do get a frozen turkey, be mindful that it requires a good long time to thaw. Have a lovely holiday. Sun Nov 16 20:58:52 -0800 2008 4178932 47777 janeh 1 4179217 If you can afford it. Local. Organic. Every time! It is always better in so many ways. Good for you. Mon Nov 17 01:00:35 -0800 2008 4177889 226303 keith2000 2 4179218 You are going to have to brine it yourself however. Mon Nov 17 01:03:13 -0800 2008 4179217 226303 keith2000 1 4179224 A frozen bird is fine - just remember that it takes longer than you might think to thaw it. I like to take my bigger birds out of the freezer and put them in the refrigerator on Sunday night before thanksgiving so it is thawed in time to brine it. If this is the first time you are doing the Big Meal, keep it simple. Nothing wrong with olives, nuts, cheese and so on for starters, a purchased dessert, and then you can focus on whatever sides which are important to you and your guests. If someone offers to bring something say yes. And have fun - this is my favorite holiday and I've never had a bad one... Mon Nov 17 01:25:45 -0800 2008 4177889 14164 sheiladeedee 2 4179376 yes and you're right about the time to thaw. Sunday into the refrigerator is what I do also. Mon Nov 17 05:19:34 -0800 2008 4179224 18353 DGresh 1 4179244 Lately I've started buying a fresh, local turkey from a specialty grocer, and giving my free frozen supermarket turkey to the food pantry. But I have to admit that I really can't tell the difference in taste. So ethically, the price may be worth it *to you* but don't be disappointed if it isn't the "turkey to end all turkeys" taste wise. It's just a decision you are making. And like everyone says, keep it simple, don't try to do too many complicated idshes. Mon Nov 17 02:40:27 -0800 2008 4177889 18353 DGresh 2 4179366 The quality of frozen turkeys has really improved over the past 20 years or so. So has the handling along the line, so you are less likely to get one which hasn't been frozen rock solid ever since processing. A properly frozen, thawed and brined supermarket bird can be very good eating. Mon Nov 17 05:12:58 -0800 2008 4179244 14164 sheiladeedee 1 4179391 Yes, its worth it. Both from the perspective of taste and from the perspective of animal welfare. It sounds like you're getting the turkey from the people who run/own the farm where the turkeys are raised. That's great. Ask them about how the turkeys live, what they eat and so on. To me its worth more money for the animal I'm going to eat to have been treated well and humanely. The best turkeys I've had have been local and free range. Organic is a good start. As a few have noted, organic doesn't necessarily mean the turkeys have been treated well but it does serve as an indicator of something positive within the context of what else you can learn. I'm also totally sold on fresh versus frozen from a convenience standpoint (don't have to have the bird in the fridge for 4 days thawing out). I'm not sure it matters much from an overall quality perspective so long as you defrost the turkey slowly in the fridge. Mon Nov 17 05:29:14 -0800 2008 4177889 80141 ccbweb 2 4179424 Not all fresh, organic, free-range turkeys are alike. I raise heritage breed, pasture raised turkeys. One thing about the heritage breeds is they are about twice as old as the commercial breeds of turkeys when they are harvested. This makes a huge difference in flavor. Your commercial breed of turkey would be too big for most ovens if it was allowed to grow for so long. Taste testing showed that the longer lived bird, even if a broad breasted white, the most common commercial breed tasted far better when it had lived longer. But even your organic, free range bird is likely to be only four months old at best when it is a commercial breed. It costs more to grow a turkey longer and that adds to the buyers cost but you do get a big return in improved flavor. Pasture raised also makes a huge difference. My birds run and play and even fly-- something the commercial birds are too heavy to manage. That changes the texture of the meat to firmer -- more like a game bird. They eat all kinds of things -- lots of grass and they are bug eating machines. They not only grow up to be thanksgiving dinner, they improve the soil in my pasture and keep the weed and bug population under control. Their meat is healthier to consume, with far more balance in long chain fatty acids than an indoor turkey will have. Now that it is fall, my birds are also fed apples, a favorite of theirs. Nothing goes into these turkeys that you can't find in nature and they get to live the way nature intended. They are moved constantly so they don't live in their own droppings but in fresh, clean pasture. Don't contact me for a Thanksgiving turkey as these turkeys are my pilot project in turkey raising and my breeding stock for next year. But next year, hopefully, I and many other small farmers will have superior heritage breed, pasture raised turkeys available to make your Thanksgiivng meal special. Mon Nov 17 05:48:49 -0800 2008 4179391 63171 susanl143 1 4189601 Mr Dick was reputed to sing: "We pursue the industrial production of critters because most of us prefer the eating quality of the resulting product." Actually, I find the exact opposite to be true, just to demonstrate the counterpoint. Chickens or turkeys from industrialized factories do not have nearly the flavor (and texture is often really different too) of a bird raised in a pasture (see susanl143's post above for a great description). Animals that are raised in non-industrial environments of course have more variance in flavor as well due to differences in diet, time of the year, age of the animal, etc. The american food industry has spent billions of dollars trying to convince us that an assembly-line cheeseburger that is JUST LIKE the billions and billions sold like it is superior to a real cheeseburger made from a grass-fed cow raised on a pasture and actually treated like an animal rather than a product. They've done a good job too, in getting people to think they prefer something that always tastes exactly the same rather than enjoying the natural variances in the taste of food raised naturally. I specifically found my way to eating local, humanely-raised meat because it tasted better. I had no ideological investment (specifically I sneered at the notion of "happy food animals"), and frankly the prices are extremely high compared to industrial foods. So we eat less volume of meat, but get the "good stuff", down to buying local lard and schmaltz. It is an interesting side effect of eating this way for the past couple of years that without any other changes in my diet except purchasing local produce and meats that my blood pressure, cholesterol, and general health have improved to the point that my doctor was flabbergasted by the improvements. Now admittedly I grew up on a rural farm in the 60s, and all of our meat as a child was local, often to our farm (we had chickens and pigs, the guy down the road had cows, another had sheep and goats). We also hunted local animals: rabbit, deer, turkey, squirrel, wild pigs, duck, etc., all found their way onto our table. Do I prefer the extra flavor because I grew up eating "real" animals rather than stuff from a factory-farm? Maybe. So to answer your question, I think the closer you can get to the original wild animal, the more "worth it" it is. btw, $2.99 / lb for a good turkey is cheap, we ordered our pastured fresh heritage-breed turkey this year for closer to $6 / lb. Thu Nov 20 12:04:12 -0800 2008 4177889 83832 fussycouple 1 4206227 Jeez, if you think you might be overpaying at $2.99/lb, I won't even tell you what we paid for our heritage-breed pastured turkey (Bourbon Red). Suffice to say it was significantly more. This was my first thanksgiving cooking too, and while the overall results were good and the bird came out tasty, I didn't find it to be worth the extra cost -- and this is coming from a person who eats 95% local organic food. It just didn't taste that different from any regular old turkey. This was very different from my experience with heritage-breed pork, which is worth every damn extra penny it costs, for it's eye-poppingly extravagant flavor. Next time I do this, I'm going to go for organic and pastured, but only because I believe in humanely raised food animals, not for the taste factor. I'll skip the heritage part and save some cash. Thu Nov 27 22:18:42 -0800 2008 4177889 16011 oolah