572415 Sat Nov 15 05:05:17 -0800 2008 196 29 Not About Food 0 4175362 I sometimes feel like I live in a magic house completely uncontaminated by food pathogens and in which food can be left out without spoilage or infection. Guests may come dirty, but walk through the front door and are magically sterilized. Although I keep a very clean kitchen and store things properly, I just don't worry about food poisoning in my magic house. What about you? How do you rate yourself, from food slob in a magic house to a follower of all the food handling "rules" in a dark, contaminated universe? Please keep this lighthearted and fun. Just provide your approach. No citing of USDA or other rules and recommendations, please. Sat Nov 15 05:05:17 -0800 2008 36661 Sam Fujisaka 1 4175380 I think I live in a magic house myself. I do the usual--wipe down counters, etc., but unless I'm cooking for guests, I don't worry too much about food poisoning either. My cat stays off the counters, but she wanders the floors and yes, there's probably cat fur and dander floating around. The 6-second rule for me personally can extend up to 6 weeks :) I've been known to find a toasted hazelnut on the floor that probably fell down the week before and I've still eaten it. Still pretty good! Obsessive? Absolutely not! I've defrosted things on the counter, I"ve left mayonnaise-y things out probably too long, and I eat stuffing that's been cooked inside the turkey WITHOUT checking the temperature. I eat raw cookie dough with uncooked eggs. Anyway, Sam, perhaps you should write a book full of magic kitchen tips! And I'm rarely sick ( and when I am, it's something like a migraine or the occasional hangover of the headache-y variety). Sat Nov 15 05:38:10 -0800 2008 4175362 131171 nofunlatte 1 4175381 On previous threads along this topic line I have stated I follow the same methods I learned as a cook, and working in the food purchasing business. I dont want to risk getting myself, or family members sick so I error on the side of caution, and if I even have a small doubt somehting may be bad it goes in the trash without second thought. Throwing out $3 worth of questionable ground beef or chicken vs a hospital bill, or a day off from work ill, is a no-brainer. We keep our kitchen spotless, and I run it like a restaurant. Food is labled, and stored correctly, and safe food handling, prep, cooking, and storage techniques are followed. This is easy since I do all the cooking, prep, and purchasing of the food. I do not sit in fear of food contamination, since I follow basic guidlines & practices I have learned over the years, and have the utmost confidence in these practices. Error on the side of caution and all is good in my world. Sat Nov 15 05:38:13 -0800 2008 4175362 26725 swsidejim 2 4243289 What a great post. I follow the same methods and feel the same way. It's all simple common sense. Fri Dec 12 19:42:21 -0800 2008 4175381 239340 latindancer 1 4175456 I'm ashamed to admit that my kitchen sanitation skill are less than ideal! Like nofunlatte, I've been known to pick things off the floor- I mean, if it just fell...how much could it hurt?! I'll eat anything in my fridge just as long as it doesn't taste off. Soups and stews will be left on the stove for days- after the third day, if it's not gone, it'll go in the fridge. But I can't even remember the last time I've gotten sick from home cooked food! Just some facts: -I don't wear shoes in the house -I'm Korean- I eat lots and lots of kimchi -A lot of the foods I eat are miso based, seasoned with vinegar, or Korean red pepper paste-based. This may increase the viability of dishes -I'm a girl -I'm incredibly fastidious with it comes to everything else! Sat Nov 15 06:31:04 -0800 2008 4175362 107888 dream75517 2 4176660 "I'm a girl" OMG, I'm LOL here. Thanks for the laugh! I too live in a magic house - never been sick from anything I've cooked, and I am not fastidious at all! Although I don't go barefoot in the house due to foot pain without shoes. Sat Nov 15 16:51:51 -0800 2008 4175456 143696 Catskillgirl 2 4177624 I'm pretty much with you on all counts, dream75517, though I don't eat that much kimchi or miso-, vinegar- or red pepper-based foods. apparently, the shared facts of us being girls and not wearing shoes in the house is enough to keep us from getting sick. Sun Nov 16 08:36:41 -0800 2008 4175456 64215 cimui 3 4177931 agreed. :) Sun Nov 16 11:40:57 -0800 2008 4177624 120180 tzurriz 2 4182297 Haha, the secret's out- Boys, sorry! But really, I'm just not a germaphobe...Growing up with a nurse for a mother fosters a sense of shame about caring about the little germs- she would pooh pooh and laugh me out of the house! I think that eating questionable foods has given me the immunity that I have today..and it was totally worth it! The best thing you could do is wash your hands (preferably not anti-bacterial- lowers immunity!) and trust your gut in the kitchen! Tue Nov 18 03:58:41 -0800 2008 4175456 107888 dream75517 1 4175532 I KNOW I live in a magic house because Tinker Bell lives in my entryway. Whenever someone comes through the front door, she sprinkles them with pixie dust and all of the villainous germs and microbes and nasties disappear. I do suspect that some of them escape back out the front door before she hits 'em with a blast, because guests have been known to become contaminated the minute they walk out the door. She makes a couple of trips daily throughout the house scattering the magic over any possibly lurking baddies, opens the refrigerator and dusts the inside. I don't allow anyone to enter the house the first time through the back door or the patio doors. I do have a fairy that lives in my back yard, but he's not magic. He's just a plain old squirrel drag queen who can't even keep the pecans from going bad when they're on the ground too long. If you think I['m joking, then how come no one has EVER gotten sick from eating in my house? Magic! Tinker Bell's magic! Sat Nov 15 07:34:41 -0800 2008 4175362 112096 Caroline1 2 4243292 LOL... I make everyone take a shower when they enter my Magic House. Then they must drink alot of water...at least 2 liters while visiting. Do you think that helps? Fri Dec 12 19:45:03 -0800 2008 4175532 239340 latindancer 3 4243494 hmmm... Could be great, could be a problem... Depends entirely on how long they stay and the strength of their sphincter urethrae. '-) Fri Dec 12 22:32:39 -0800 2008 4243292 112096 Caroline1 1 4175567 Magic House! We should get Pete Townshend to come out of retirement and write a song... I think i rate on the food slob side of things, with occasional breakout moments to food safety nazi. I think I am evolving as I get older, maybe devolving. My influences are varied. I have a scientific/medical background, so I have reasonable knowledge of infectious processes and microbiology. My immediate family are experts in fermentation (dad microbiologist, mum expert kimchi maker and home cook extraordinaire), so between the two of them, I've received quite an education on home-food safety, and I am of the mind that some of our modern food safety rules are a little excessive. Some general rules I've adopted over the ages: 1. Expiration dates from manufacturers are optional. But they may be an indication to look and taste carefully before using the item. More often than not, the quality is down. If the item smells off or if there is visible mold/bacteria, it gets tossed. if the texture or taste are off, it gets tossed only because I don't want to eat it for flavour reasons, not food safety reasons. If it looks, smells, tastes ok, whoo hoo! Time to eat! 2. Items lost in the back of the fridge/freezer/pantry: See Rule #1. 3. If I see mold on a piece of fruit or veg: chop off the moldy bit. But the rest may be salvageable and edible. Ditto cheese. But for some reason, something soft and full of holes like bread, well, less willing to go there. 4. After an infestation of mealy worms, I have gone food safety nazi on the storage of dried goods. Lots and lots of sealed containers. Hubbie is asked to clean the cupboards well on regular basis. 5. Things left out on counter longer than they should have been left: if it can be boiled, boil it well. If it can be heated, heat it well. For un-heatable items, I will toss mayo-based things that have been for a long-overnight, but if the ingredients seem fairly innocuous, see Rule 1. I have gotten a lot better at putting food away in a timely fashion, so the safety level has improved. 6. If you can't beat them, join them. I eat an inordinate number of fermented, microbe infested products: cheese, yogurt, miso, doen jang, kimchi, sauerkraut, yeast-infested bread, wine, just to name but a few of the products which would be inconceivable without our friends bacteria, yeast, and mold. SO my magic house does not automatically sterilize everything that walks in the front door. 7. Finally, 5-10 second rule well in place. Now I will comment that I am much more free and easy with food rules when it is just my hubbie and I. When having guests, I become much more Type A. I figure, hubbie and I have developed immunities, but if our guests come from, say, Swsidejim's kitchen, well, wouldn't want to take any risks.... Sat Nov 15 07:52:52 -0800 2008 4175362 89969 moh 2 4177899 ". After an infestation of mealy worms, I have gone food safety nazi on the storage of dried goods. Lots and lots of sealed containers. Hubbie is asked to clean the cupboards well on regular basis" I had the same problem and also these little bugs that poked wholes in my flour that was in the cupboard. For the flour I just packed them all in large ziplock bags and the pasta in sealed containers. I will never forget the horror though. I think I through away all the pasta regardless of if it had been attacked or not. Sun Nov 16 11:22:39 -0800 2008 4175567 235812 Sandwich_Sister 3 4191118 If you're referring to, what some call, pantry moths in your dried goods - count me as a victim too. That was one of the most tramatizing experiences - ugh. However, they have nothing to do with a lack of sanitation in your home, but rather the dried goods were infested elsewhere. I had a bag of rice from the indian market that I think was the culprit in my case. What a pain in the arse to rid your pantry of those things <shudder>. I am a total germ freak out in public. I push doors open w/ the back of my hand or my butt <grin>, wash my hands alot, instruct my kids not to use hand rails, etc. But, at home cooking, I don't obsess about all the GD rules (most of which I suspect are baseless). I stuff my turkey, don't have a designated "chix only" cutting board, I thaw meats in the sink, I like my eggs runny, etc. I tighten up my standards when I have guests but otherwise we are a family of iron stomachs! p.s. My one exception is that I do wash my fruit and some veggies w/ soap and water. I see those nasty people in the grocery store wiping their noses and then man-handling the apples - blech! Fri Nov 21 04:29:25 -0800 2008 4177899 71241 lynnlato 4 4253613 Those pantry moths.. I hate them. They infested my parents' kitchen, and for a while were swarming right outside the window one day a summer or two ago. We had to go through every single box in the cupboards. My parents think it was a bag of bird seeds in the garage that started it, strangely. Wed Dec 17 08:25:09 -0800 2008 4191118 144298 Erinmck 3 4199586 Go to either a big pet supply place or a good big hardware store and get some moth traps. These open up to little cardboard tents that you place in your cupboards, on top of the fridge, on shelves. The moths are sexually attracted to a little pheromone-impregnated bait and get stuck to the sticky coating inside the trap. They're about $7 for a pack of two, and I usually get about $30 worth if we're seeing lots of those tiny moths. Mon Nov 24 19:07:10 -0800 2008 4177899 11478 Will Owen 3 4243300 Well my once, and never again, problem with bugs had to do with buying a grain in bulk from a very well known health food store years ago. I'm a neat freak in my kitchen and it had nothing to do with cleanliness. The grain was infested at the store level and I simply brought it home and waited for them to hatch. Ugh. No more bulk for me. Fri Dec 12 19:48:29 -0800 2008 4177899 239340 latindancer 4 4284918 When we had a moth infestation a few years ago, I mentioned to my husband that I thought they originated from the bulk bins, and he said "you mean we *bought* them?" Bulk isn't the only culprit, though. I've had moths inside sealed plastic bags of nuts. Wed Dec 31 00:01:57 -0800 2008 4243300 138816 jlafler 2 4268307 The moths are a naturally occurring phenomenon and have nothing to do with your cleanliness, or the cleanliness of your purveyor. Better that than pesticide, thanks. That said, I did not love my first infestation of mini-mothra. Moth traps work pretty well. Sealed containers do not solve this particular problem. Just FREEZE your grains when you get them home, and THEN put them (in sealed containers, since you don't want mice either) on the shelf. (btw it's really okay to sift a little debris, moths included, out of your rice. But you can avoid that by freezing) And yes, I live in a magic kitchen. The only strict rule I have is about sticking clean spoons in condiments, honey, jam, etc. No fingers, no double-dipping. I believe in the power of boiling water to clean. I do not like anything that smells up my kitchen tools like certain commercial dish soap or bleach. Tue Dec 23 05:51:24 -0800 2008 4175567 11989 pitu 3 4284245 Not only that, but eating moths won't make you sick. It's unpleasant, but harmless. Same is true of most molds. And hair, whether it's cat, dog or human. If you have cats and dogs they may be spreading around some nasties from their feces (on their feet, for example), but actually you're more likely to get some kind of parasite/worm than a bacterial illness. Food poisoning is caused by a fairly small number of specific pathogens, none of which commonly reside in significant numbers in a typical house. If they did, we'd have become resistent to them, just as we have to all the other bacteria and viruses common to our environment. Salmonella has to come from somewhere. If your chicken didn't have salmonella to begin with, leaving it out for hours, days or even weeks won't magically cause it to grow salmonella (although it could grow something else). And if it did have salmonella and was properly cooked, then the same applies. If something is safe in a jar for a year, that means it's sterile and will be sterile until the seal is broken, whether it's "expired" or not. Bacteria don't magically appear in a sealed jar on day 366! The vast majority of food-borne illness comes from raw food and cross-contamination of cooked food by raw food -- if you put your cooked chicken on a plate that had raw chicken on it, all bets are off! I don't think it's reasonable to assume that food safety requirements applicable to commercial kitchens are necessary for home cooks. Food in restaurants is handled by more people, and has a much higher risk of coming into contact with a wide variety of potential pathogen carrying substances and contaminated tools and surfaces than food at home. Tue Dec 30 17:07:24 -0800 2008 4268307 10159 Ruth Lafler 4 4289714 "Not only that, but eating moths won't make you sick. It's unpleasant, but harmless. Same is true of most molds. " I had heard something about carcinogens from eating food that had been overtaken by moths and larvae, am I misremembering something? I also recall something about aflatoxins from mold in peanuts being carcinogenic. But I am the first to admit I am on shaky ground here. Anyhow, I suppose if you had to choose between carcinogens and starvation, one might choose the former. I have spent a large part of the holidays being grateful for the fact that I enjoyed a few days of hunger as opposed to over-satiety, and worrying about additives, not what I'll have to eat. I am very fortunate indeed. Fri Jan 02 09:14:01 -0800 2009 4284245 89969 moh 4 4535899 I think you may want to be much more aware of what lurks on your cats hair and paws. Toxoplasmosis gondii has been linked to a host of mental illnesses most are unaware of. This is why Pregnant woman are not suppose to change litter. Unfortunately we are really not educated well enough on how it can affect anyone who happens to eat something that the microscopic spore landed in via air. The same goes with pin worms the eggs can become airborne. I also use to have a very relaxed position about a lot of things until I started to read about the links of bacteria, fungus,viruses, and parasites to mental health. You may want to read this. http://www.newsweek.com/id/60723/page/1 Cin Wed Mar 25 01:20:52 -0700 2009 4284245 277221 Cindid 5 4536231 omitting the life cycle/host/inoculant/parasite integrity issue is problematic much of the article is lacking "context" passage through the gut of ? toxoplasmosis,the cat has to "get it " from something,not from somewhere. Wed Mar 25 06:38:12 -0700 2009 4535899 203919 lcool 6 4542635 Thank you. The article does not offer much substantiation, does it? I used to work at CDC and my whole job was to test for toxoplasmosis. They definitely recommend that pregnant women not change cat's litter box. But the rest is a bit of a stretch. If it were airborne, I'd certainly have gotten it as I used to make my own antigen by injecting 200 mice a week and then harvestingthe antigen. Caution is good; unfounded alarm is just that. Thu Mar 26 20:58:57 -0700 2009 4536231 131001 c oliver 7 4586328 Spot on Did some CDC and Brother Rockefeller overseas time myself.Last I heard the toxoplasmosis cycle requires "the flea" .As does the tape worm in cats.It isn't something you get in your sleep.So if the cat is inside and 100% free of fleas the risk equastion changes. unfounded/naive alarm ??? Fri Apr 10 21:31:36 -0700 2009 4542635 203919 lcool 8 4588167 I'm not sure about this but my memory (which is as old as I am) is that, yes, for the tapeworm but no for toxoplasma. It seems like the cat would have to ingest the infect material, i.e., killing an infected bird. So if a cat had never gone outside, then I guess fine. But it's easy enough for pregnant women to avoid the cat box (oh, darn, I'm sure they'll all hate that.) But the parasites don't leap and fly around. And die when exposed to air for a period of time. If people would worry about the real dangers than the imagined, they'd probably be alot healthier. Sat Apr 11 17:44:47 -0700 2009 4586328 131001 c oliver 9 4589387 or eating vector insects,cats clean,eat the flea,eggs hatch from flea gut into cat gut etc in agreement with your memory one of the best of natures "sanitizers" is sunlight.Ergo grazing animals with much rotated space tend to need less chemical support to remain healthy in an area with rampant lyme disease our answer is to keep the cats in and bathe the dogs in season. Sun Apr 12 11:02:12 -0700 2009 4588167 203919 lcool 7 4589427 Caution is good; unfounded alarm is profitable. Buy my book and it'll explain why. Sun Apr 12 11:22:03 -0700 2009 4542635 58743 alanbarnes 8 4589523 I think a few others beat you to it. Sun Apr 12 12:16:57 -0700 2009 4589427 131001 c oliver 9 4589590 touche' Sun Apr 12 12:55:40 -0700 2009 4589523 203919 lcool 3 4284922 If you think about it, when you freeze grains to kill any moth eggs (which is also what I do), that doesn't actually remove them. They're still there. Unpleasant to think about, but it doesn't appear to matter otherwise. Wed Dec 31 00:05:26 -0800 2008 4268307 138816 jlafler 4 4285029 But why are moths and moth larvae any more repulsive, when you stop to think it through, than birds' eggs, birds, fish, sheep, pigs, or cattle? In today's world of nearly universal availability, choice of food is almost always a form of cultural bias. Not that I'd smack my lips at the chance to sit down to a bowl full of moth larvae for breakfast, but on the other hand, I've never tasted them. '-) Wed Dec 31 04:46:44 -0800 2008 4284922 112096 Caroline1 5 4285808 You'll get no argument from me. When I was studying anthropology I knew a guy who had eaten all sorts of things while he was doing his fieldwork in New Guinea. He said that only thing he was expected to eat that he really had trouble with was maggots, but even then, once he'd nerved himself to eat them, they tasted pretty good! Wed Dec 31 10:11:09 -0800 2008 4285029 138816 jlafler 6 4286022 "Maggots, the OTHER white meat!" '-) Wed Dec 31 11:39:51 -0800 2008 4285808 112096 Caroline1 1 4175727 No, you're not. I grew up in that kind of house, where my mom would leave frozen meat on the counter during the day to thaw. Thanksgiving and X-mas leftovers were left in the unheated garage because it was cold enough there to store them. None of us every had food poisoning, none of our guests ever had food poisoning, and I still have never had food poisoning to this day running my own kitchen in the same way. Sat Nov 15 09:11:05 -0800 2008 4175362 10216 Lucia 1 4176622 Ah, Sam, what can I say? Your posts always tweak interest. I would be delighted to believe that I live in a magic house; it's a lot more fun than thinking I'm doing a good job of keeping the buggers at bay. Cleanliness may be next to Godliness, but it's also next to impossible. With one mind-numbing, cataclysmic exception (when I poisoned an entire Navy flight squadron on the West Coast, as noted in another post), I have not made anyone ill that I know of. It is not for lack of trying -- my butter lives on the counter, eggs (bought from the "egg lady") are often unrefrigerated, produce goes from being displayed to being eaten - never seeing the inside of the fridge. When I lived in Southern Maryland, I had a whole ham that we whacked off pieces all winter and it was unrefrigerated as well. By all rights, my entire family ought to be pushing up daisies but we're disgustingly healthy. My kitchen is clean, make no bones about it, but I'm lazy about dating stored items. Heck, sometimes I even forget to label them so supper can be "a surprise" until it thaws (which could happen on the counter or sink). I eat street food if the vendor looks clean. I try to be good about washing produce but have been known to snack on the (unwashed) cherries coming home from market. When I lived in France, bread was carried home without sterile wrappers, cheese was stored unrefrigerated - all with no ill effects. In the Philippines, when I went to market, I bought what looked fresh and we enjoyed every morsel. Do I trust my nose to detect off odors? Youbetcha. Do I trust my eyes to see evidence of spoilage? Ditto If someone is cooking on autopilot, without being aware of their product, chances for trouble increase. "Pay Attention" works just as well in the kitchen as it does behind the wheel of a car. I am neither food slob nor nervous nellie; likely a solid C+ enjoying every good thing life has to offer. As a species, humans would not have survived this long if life was as dangerous as naysayers would have us believe. Living in fear holds no appeal. I'd rather live in fun. Sat Nov 15 16:30:47 -0800 2008 4175362 15743 Sherri 2 4176723 I grew up in a magic house and have held fast to somewhat lax standards and traditions. If it looks okay, smells okay, tastes okay...it's okay. Oh yeah...my magic cape has made it pretty comfortable to eat some wild and wonderful (not always!) street food all over the world without any serious trouble. Sat Nov 15 17:29:56 -0800 2008 4176622 47777 janeh 3 4177770 I neglected to note that I do wash my hands pretty frequently - no anti bacterial soap, though. Am pretty repulsed when watching a cooking show where the chef may go from handling chicken to handling lettuce with just a wipe of the hands on a dish towel in between. Sun Nov 16 09:59:28 -0800 2008 4176723 47777 janeh 4 4179140 ditto on the hand-washing. regular soap too. I am also very careful about contaminating raw veggies and raw foods with raw meats such as chicken. I do a lot of cleaning of cutting boards and knives and plates when prepping food. Sun Nov 16 22:54:33 -0800 2008 4177770 89969 moh 2 4176844 My edits are not taking hold, so I'll just reply to myself. When I owned/operated a restaurant/catering business, we received a 100% rating from the health dept. A residential kitchen is another world from a commercial establishment. Health dept. rules are made for commercial situations with multiple employees, etc. I should note that when my (late) mother and (late) husband were on chemo, I was a *hawk* about cleanliness. The last thing either of them needed was an additional problem. Sat Nov 15 18:38:02 -0800 2008 4176622 15743 Sherri 2 4177224 Sherri my butter lives on the counter too, even in summer. I don't have central air, just one a/c unit so the butter is nice and soft on it's glass butter plate on summer mornings, spreads so easily. And I tend to keep the heat turned low in winter so sometimes I have to gently nuke my butter in the morning in January and February. And the only fruit that sees the inside of my fridge is when I buy way too much grapes at Costco or when strawberries are buy one basket get another one free. No one here has ever gotten sick from my food either so my house must be magical too! Great topic Sam thanks for posting it, and in such a whimsical way too! Sun Nov 16 00:29:05 -0800 2008 4176622 184593 givemecarbs 3 4177514 Butter to me never tastes right if left out "intentionally" to soften. Nuking is the same. However- I use my food mallet to pound some spread-ability into my butter. It comes out perfect in flavor and in spreading, but it makes one heck of a mess. I guess I am a temp control freak, with many "thou shall not do(s)" to my food, personalities. Sun Nov 16 07:38:42 -0800 2008 4177224 60276 RShea78 4 4177789 To me butter doesn't taste right cold. Room temp is when the creaminess, sweetness and saltiness all come together. Sun Nov 16 10:09:46 -0800 2008 4177514 76025 mojoeater 1 4176726 Magic House ... probably not. Ivory Tower ... probably yes. I try to keep a clean kitchen. We cook a lot - and tidy up after every meal. I don't eat anything off the floor.... that's just plain gross. I've been walking on the floor for Heaven sakes, and so have other people. I admit to having thawed meat on the counter, but usually take whatever out from the freezer and put it into the fridge the day before using. Soup made on Tuesday, with leftovers gets eaten in a reincarnation on Saturday night....with additions, usually, brought to the boil then simmered for a few. See them thar hills over there.... that I'm as old as.... No one in this house has ever become ill from anything I've cooked in all them thar years. I'm just sayin'. Sat Nov 15 17:31:16 -0800 2008 4175362 75332 Gio 1 4176812 I'm pretty sure that this is a magic house... stuff comes up off the floor if it's just dropped and doesn't get stepped on. If I'm worried about any meat--and it doesn't smell funny--I just cook it to death. Pots of soup and things can sit on the stove getting reheated and eaten out of for two or three days. I'm not overly vigilant about keeping the cats off the counters. But I do wash my counters well with bleach before rolling out pie crust and I do the same with my cutting board after I cut up meat on it. We don't find ourselves with upset stomachs or other ailments, very often, so if nothing else we must be used to whatever bugs live here. That said, one time when I was fixing dinner for a family in which one member was receiving chemo, I was EXTREMELY careful to be sure everything was spotless and all food was properly handled. It's one thing to be sorta careless about this stuff when I'm feeding myself, something else entirely to run risks with someone else's health. Sat Nov 15 18:22:55 -0800 2008 4175362 32586 revsharkie 2 4176905 Well, that's the key, isn't it. Consideration for others--regardless of whether they are undergoing some sort of medical treat or they are healthy as horses--means likely adhering to a sanitary standard higher than what you may use for yourself. When I entertain, I am considerably more fastidious about cleaning and following food prep and storage guidelines than I am when it's just me. I certainly don't feed guests anything that fell onto the floor and I certainly follow the "defrost in the fridge" rule for food I'm serving them. But if it's just me, I relax those standards considerably. I've been blessed enough to inherit good genes maybe! Sat Nov 15 19:11:08 -0800 2008 4176812 131171 nofunlatte 1 4176944 What's even more magical than a magic house?? Whatever it is, it's where my in-laws live. Soup is made and left on the stove for days and days. Food is put out in the garage because it's cooler out there. Never mind the fact that it's 60* during the day. Food is put in the fridge without proper containment. Liquids spill and are not wiped up. The sad part is though, my MIL has Alzheimer's and will load the dishwasher, not run it and unload it in the morning and put them away. They never get sick. I'm not much of a germaphobe but when I get down there I get all Niles Crane. DT Sat Nov 15 19:40:35 -0800 2008 4175362 11291 Davwud 1 4177164 No magic house, just magic sewer pipes. :-) Sat Nov 15 22:59:30 -0800 2008 4175362 11583 ipsedixit 1 4177212 I'm somewhere between swsidejim and MOH. Heating, cooling and cleanup I'm vigilant. Regarding expiration dates, my view point is like MOH's. A little mold on hard cheese, soft spot on fruit - I'm fine on trimming it off. I think I've arrived at the heat/cool/clean viewpoint partly through restaurant/food safety training and partly from living in sub-tropic areas. In that climate you can't get away with being lax, or you will pay through vermin,bugs and intestinal issues. Purchasing food I rely on sight, touch, smell and observation of overall hygiene of the place. Street food I use common sense and a visual assessment of the place. If there is a crowd, I figure they must be relatively problem free. And I always travel with imodium, just in case! Sat Nov 15 23:54:25 -0800 2008 4175362 111267 meatn3 2 4179144 Just to clarify: I call myself a food slob, but I am actually pretty careful about cleanliness and sanitation. Perhaps food slob is the wrong term. Our kitchen is pretty clean for the most part. But I do tend to be relaxed about things like expiration dates, how long food can be stored, etc. Sun Nov 16 22:59:49 -0800 2008 4177212 89969 moh 3 4179178 Understood - that was how it had seemed. I was trying to say I was a mix of what you both articulated, if that makes more sense? You each spoke to different aspects of my habits. Had not meant to imply a scale in any way! You are describing me to a "t"! I drive my SO crazy with trying to get the concept of cross contamination across, then I turn around & confuse by looking at an expired date and saying that it is fine! :-D Sun Nov 16 23:58:17 -0800 2008 4179144 111267 meatn3 1 4177256 In my former restaurant we adhered to all the food safety regs and policies very religiously - at home the look, smell, feel, taste rules apply. Since a large part of what we eat is Korean prepped foods, we use "Korean" storage. When it is cool or cold outside, the garage and back porch become additional refrigerators. Many types of ban chan and kimchi are very hardy and can survive extreme conditions. American products/foods get treated with a bit more care - sealed containers and refrigerated storage when appropriate, and "use by" or "sell by" dates are used as a guideline to pay closer attention to the food item. Over all though, it's probably the "magic house" effect, as we simply don't worry much about foods we prepare and cook ourselves. Sun Nov 16 02:04:22 -0800 2008 4175362 93805 hannaone 1 4177273 Magic house yes.Just common sense,USDA rules where important,fresh kill meat on a surface etc.The rest of the time,soap and HOT water.I guess having 4' x 3' stainless surface makes it a no brainer. Never had food illness in the house. Sun Nov 16 03:05:49 -0800 2008 4175362 203919 lcool 1 4177370 To avoid bringing germs into your Magic House, last week on a TV network news broadcast they featured stores which are installing sanitizing stations through which you push your food cart to eliminate any nasty germs. Sometimes I wonder how I managed to survive growing up sixty years ago without all of these sanitary rules. Sun Nov 16 05:58:16 -0800 2008 4175362 112335 mexivilla 1 4177534 Sam- The first thing that comes to mind is that I was raised on unpasteurized dairy goods. Granny made the most of our items, like butter, butter milk, cottage cheese (but no other cheeses) and HM ice-cream. Granny did have (and still does at 94) a sense of humor. She often referred to "pasteurized" as something to be over one's head. (As in past your eyes...) I got a magic granny... Sun Nov 16 07:47:22 -0800 2008 4175362 60276 RShea78 1 4177638 I pretty much follow all the rules. I would never eat something off the floor unless I *just* washed it. I wash my hands with HOT water and soap (not antibacterial, bad for the environment) frequently and thoroughly, food goes in the refrigerator ASAP after cooking. I never keep leftovers for more than 3 days, I will never defrost raw meat for more than an hour or two on the counter. I even place a large bowl under my colander when I strain pasta in the sink because I am afraid of sink germs getting into the colander. The thought of not washing produce before eating kills me - how many times have you seen an orange fall, someone pick it up and put it back in the grocery store? I even wash things like cantaloupe before slicing because I don't want to drag the germs on the rind through the flesh. One thing I guess which isn't safe is I will eat raw fish and dishes with raw eggs but I figure I follow everything else so I should be fine. I think the reason I am so cautious is because I grew up in a home where cleaning was not a priority and my mother would leave meat out to defrost for hours and stews on the counter for hours. I think in a lot of ways I try not to be like my mother. She would kill me if she read that. Sun Nov 16 08:48:57 -0800 2008 4175362 240339 Chefsquire 2 4177709 Many of my grown daughter's finer qualities were not learned at her mother's knee! But to return to the topic, when she was about 3 I had a friend over for coffee. We were in the kitchen, and I made the comment "you can't eat off my kitchen floor!". At which point my daughter piped up with, "Yes we can mommy. there's a green bean under that chair." I do believe there was something "edible" poking out from under the stove, too. Like you, though, I was careful about leftovers. I also thawed food mostly in the fridge, unlike my own mother! Sun Nov 16 09:26:01 -0800 2008 4177638 10087 Pat Hammond 3 4177742 hah, great story. which brings me to another point: why have floors so clean you could eat off them, if you don't take advantage of this fact? the only way i can motivate myself to really scrub my floors is if i remind myself of how many m&ms and delectable pieces of pork belly i'll be able to salvage off of it. what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, right? Sun Nov 16 09:42:24 -0800 2008 4177709 64215 cimui 1 4177809 I too live in magic house! I learned in Home Elementary School that people got sick from food when people didnt wash their hands after using the restroom.This simple lesson from 4th grade has stayed with me and no one has ever gotten sick at my house. I provide soap, often scented soap, in the bathroom at my house. Because of that, things can be cooked to any temp, things can be left on the counter, and late at night, I can wake up and pick at leftovers I forgot to put away. I dont even need to buy special antibacterial soap for the counters! And, the floors stay clean enough to eat off of, even though I have two labradors. It was an amazing lesson to learn, thank god for 9 years of elementary school HomeEc! Sun Nov 16 10:24:59 -0800 2008 4175362 158016 cassoulady 1 4177888 I'm in a magic hose most of the time. I think it's funny though because I worked in a few kitchens, delis and subshops and I know that when a green pepper starts to look not so fresh they just chop off the bad parts and keep the good parts. They follow the rules but for some reason we always thinks restaurants go above and beyond and the truth is they also have to worry about their bottom line so if they can salvage something without descreasing the quality you better bet they will. I live on the therory that my kitchen floor is cleaner than any other floor that the food I eat may be dropped on. I follow the 5 second rule unless of course my dog gets to it first. I leave the left over homemade pizza out all night if it doesn't have meat on it. Since working in the food indutry I'm picky about meat temps. I don't want the meat to get into the danger zone so I try to keep it in the fridge to thaw. My other half has a totally different philosophy though. I'm also a thrifty person and HATE throwing food out. Smells okay, looks okay? Its good. but yet my other half is picky about eating left overs, unless it's chili. Sometimes I feed my little minpin while I'm cooking. She loves a little slice of tomato or carrot and sometimes I'll even feed her a little meat if she gives me those puppy dog eyes. I wash my hands a lot while cooking but I can see how it wouldn't be completely sanitary lol. and on a weird note. I love eating left over cold spagetti not so much unsanitary but maybe just a little bit weird. Sun Nov 16 11:16:59 -0800 2008 4175362 235812 Sandwich_Sister 1 4177894 I may not be a clean cook, but I do follow the standard food safety rules in my own home. I wash my hands regularly, everything is kept in it's rightful (safe) spot and my kitchen is usually spotless. While I know that I follow all of the "rules", I am still SO afraid of getting sick. If an expiration date is 3 days away, it goes in the trash, if something smells vaguely off, in the trash, if something has been in my freezer for more than a few months, in the trash. If I second guess my sniff test and still cook and eat the food, I practically obsess over if I'm going to get sick or not. I'm more than neurotic about it..and it drives my husband crazy. Funny thing about it is, I've never gotten sick from food. So where did this neuroticism come from? Good question. If you have the answer, let me know. Sun Nov 16 11:21:03 -0800 2008 4175362 220914 krisrishere 1 4178943 My grandmother regularly left things out overnight, in the basement where it was cooler. Cream pies, the Thanksgiving turkey, you name it. No one ever got sick. I took food service and sanitation when I worked in the restaurant industry, but am not terribly fussy about temperatures and such, however, because I live in a place where the water is not safe, I am very fussy about making sure that the water is properly boiled and that fruits and veggies are cleaned appropriately. Luckily I have a cook who takes care of most of that for me because soaking veggies in bleach water and then rinsing them in boiled water is a long and boring process. Sun Nov 16 20:33:52 -0800 2008 4175362 86221 lulubelle 2 4179024 ""...because soaking veggies in bleach water and then rinsing them in boiled water is a long and boring process."" That is totally unacceptable!!! (IMHO) Sounds like a recipe for toxic veggies... Sun Nov 16 21:15:39 -0800 2008 4178943 60276 RShea78 3 4179125 you REALLY don't want to know what you can get if you don't wash your veggies properly. Not just run of the mill upset stomach, but Hep, E Coli, and other assorted goodies. It is just tiny amount of bleach, and they are rinsed well (in that boiled water). I've never tasted anything off in any of the veggies or fruits she's cleaned for me. Sun Nov 16 22:37:03 -0800 2008 4179024 86221 lulubelle 4 4179159 And chlorine induced gastroenteritis or out of wack blood acid levels isn't a picnic by no means. Even the trace amounts of chlorine in our city water, forces many to drink bottled water or boil our water to evaporate out the chlorine content. Sorry, Sam and others, we cannot continue to use evil to fight evil, like 2 wrongs is very wrong. So far the only acceptable vegetable wash I am aware of is called "Fit Fruit & Vegetable wash", and I use it. http://www.tryfit.com/ Sun Nov 16 23:17:03 -0800 2008 4179125 60276 RShea78 5 4179188 Looks interesting, however it's not an option where I live, as it is not available. And honestly, until Embassy guidelines say that it is an acceptable alternative to bleach, I am sticking with the bleach. As for the drinking water here, the E Coli, Hep, Arsenic etc., in it render it undrinkable, so while putting more chemicals in it isn't the best idea, it isn't doesn't change the drinkability of it. Clean water is a huge issue in the world; I agree with that completely, however, clean food is also an issue. Mon Nov 17 00:16:03 -0800 2008 4179159 86221 lulubelle 5 4181015 RShea, have you checked out lulubelle's profile page? She lives in Bangladesh! I somehow doubt there are many places she can pick up a pack of "Fit Fruit & Vegetable Wash." There are parts of this world where the chlorine bath and boiled water rinse are the ONLY way to fly....! Well, unless you want to be flown home in a box. Mon Nov 17 14:19:27 -0800 2008 4179159 112096 Caroline1 6 4181491 When I looked only thing that clicked was, Illinois. Mon Nov 17 17:36:35 -0800 2008 4181015 60276 RShea78 1 4179183 I'm pretty lax. In fact, I'm searching for a warm place in the kitchen to keep my butter. With the granite countertops and my window box, it is just too cold to keep it spreadable. Of course, the SO won't go near the butter on the counter. This summer I did a party and had butter hidden all over my small kitchen because if he knew that I left it out, he might never eat anything I make ever again! I found some of this butter in September and still used it for toast. Nice and "ripe!" Still alive as well.... Mon Nov 17 00:05:53 -0800 2008 4175362 118114 Mattkn 2 4205414 That's so funny. Reminds me of a story I'd heard: my aunt was trying to make a cake she used to make back in Indonesia, but was never successful at reproducing the old recipe. The butter was different somehow, and she complained to her cousin that she just couldn't get the taste right. Her cousin laughed and said "the difference is that back then, refrigeration was no good. Leave the butter out for a couple of days." And sure enough, that was the key. :) Thu Nov 27 07:40:43 -0800 2008 4179183 16363 mogo 1 4179208 Ha! I found out today that I live in a magic house too. I bought a cake from a bakery that I didn't realize that it had cream between the layers until about 9 hrs later. It was about 80 degrees yesterday. I thought about not serving it, but went ahead anyway. I lived, my guests lived it was a totally amazing cake. I am lax about a lot of food safety rules but it has taken me almost 30 years. I thaw meat on the counter all the time, eat prepared food that is over a week old and push the envelope on expiration dates all the time. I am trying to get out of the habit of wasting food -- thus I've become more adventurous. Mon Nov 17 00:39:40 -0800 2008 4175362 13030 free sample addict aka Tracy L 1 4181757 Always been anal about my kitchen, food storage & sanitation. UNTIL, I met my boyfriend and his three kids! I've taught them the basics, but they're kids. They lick fingers & spoons while still mixing, they drop stuff on the floor & put it in the mixing bowl when I'm not looking.... Recently the 7 y.o. jumped off his kitchen stool half way through battering tempura vegetables. When I asked where he was going, he said he had scratched his bottom & had to wash his hands again! And I was proud! Apparently, I now live in a magic house but it's a lot of fun! Mon Nov 17 19:23:52 -0800 2008 4175362 193831 oldbaycupcake 1 4181803 OK Sammy, jfood reporting for duty. Jfood does not live in a magic house, he lives in one where pathogens live, bacteria hangs out and new food brought into the home may or may not have some itsy bitsy little thingies that may cause some bodily distress. Mrs jfood is a germ police, so there are lots of soaps around the house. And after jfood spends time cooking and washing his fingers always look like prunes from the constant washing. Likewise he has a separate cutting board for meat-only. Never will vegetable be prespped on the meat board. Likewise meat does not go on the vegetable boards. On the 5-second rule. This rule in casa jfood is "if the food hits the floor you have 5 seconds to pick it up and throw it out or else the dog gets it." BTW the dark counts really really fast. And jfood will not even go through the length food can sit out before it is thrown out since he is only halfway through wittling "This is Sam's Dumpster" and he would not want to create any competition. Butter does not sit out (even in a French Bell), eggs do not sit out, he does not bring his meat to room temperature before grilling and expiration dates mean throw out dates. So jfood is probably one end of the spectrum and other fall only to one side of him. He understands this is not the norm, but it makes him and mrs jfood sleep better. Glad you started this post Mr F. Ciao Mon Nov 17 19:40:06 -0800 2008 4175362 11290 jfood 2 4182267 I'm surprised that you haven't yet spotted me out there by the dumpster. Tue Nov 18 02:50:45 -0800 2008 4181803 36661 Sam Fujisaka 2 4187215 I forgot to mention how food doesn't last long in storage. Some leftovers, like resto or fish, can last a full 24 hours before hitting the garbage, and exp. dates do mean throw-out dates around here. The only magic in my house is how the leftovers manage to replicate themselves in the refrigerator to begin with. Seems I am always throwing things out. Except ... Chinese Food. We have a three day rule here at our house for Chinese Food. It must be aged properly for three days BEFORE we can throw it out. (must be the anti-bacterial properties of ginger and soy, or so I suspect:) Wed Nov 19 15:34:34 -0800 2008 4181803 87837 RGC1982 3 4187246 Oh Boy, hope you and jfood live in places climatically separated enough that I can winter by one of your dumpsters and summer by the other. Wed Nov 19 15:50:09 -0800 2008 4187215 36661 Sam Fujisaka 4 4188492 You may be in luck. Jfood is in New Jersey, if I remember, and I am in Dallas :) Thu Nov 20 06:41:53 -0800 2008 4187246 87837 RGC1982 5 4191077 originally Nj, now CT Fri Nov 21 03:34:27 -0800 2008 4188492 11290 jfood 3 4187620 Wow. I'm curious about what you call an "expiration date?" You remind me of my housekeeper when she first came to work for me. She was throwing out food left and right until I set out rules. #1, she had to show me the food and ask if it's okay to throw it away. #2. There is a HUGE difference between a "Sell by:" date and a "Use or freeze by:" date. And neither, especially the latter, is carved in stone. That's why God gave me a nose, taste buds, and a brain. Of course, if you LOVE throwing money down the drain or in the trash... Hey, have a blast! Wed Nov 19 18:35:42 -0800 2008 4187215 112096 Caroline1 4 4187686 My sister was one to ignore dry good dates as if dry goods last forever. She learned her lesson the hard way, off of some HB Helper. Then she about lost it, in the way the cheese tasted after making a few boxes for her gang. She looked over the empty box to find out that it was 2 years past, "best used before - date". Wed Nov 19 19:06:24 -0800 2008 4187620 60276 RShea78 4 4188495 Hey -- I once had food poisoning. I remember thinking that death would be a relief from the pain while I was lying in the ER. I even suffered cardiac changes. It was from a restaurant meal, and it took me nearly seven years to eat cold seafood again. If you want to risk it, knock yourself out. I am not doing that again. Thu Nov 20 06:43:32 -0800 2008 4187620 87837 RGC1982 5 4190956 Sounds like it may have been botulism. I don't buy dented cans. and if the housekeeper does, I make her take them back. But I empathize! I got food poisoning (poison poisson!) from eating cold salmon with mayonnaise on a flight somewhere over eastern Europe. It was two decades before I could put a piece of poached salmon in my mouth again. Restaurants are Russian roulette! Thu Nov 20 22:58:14 -0800 2008 4188495 112096 Caroline1 6 4190983 ""I don't buy dented cans. and if the housekeeper does, I make her take them back."" Dented cans really burn my goat!!! Even worse- is when some idiotic check out clerk drops my can goods in my sack, denting my can goods. I have been known to hold up the line having the store staff chase each and every dented can I have rejected. Thu Nov 20 23:40:02 -0800 2008 4190956 60276 RShea78 1 4182051 This thread was pretty darn funny! Lots of good laughs. I too live in a magical house. I have been known to leave soups and stews out at room temperature for days on end. If it smells okay, I'll reheat and eat. If not, it goes right into the garbage disposal. I also leave meat out at room temp to defrost during the day for hours on end. I do however wash my hands when handling chicken and pork and sometimes if I'm slicing beef I will eat raw pieces (I like raw beef). I also eat raw eggs a lot with Korean and Japanese food and sometimes undercook my chicken and pork. I am not a fan of overcooked and tough pork..egh. I cut off/scrape off mold on bread or sometimes I just say f*ck it and throw it into the toaster....I know not good. Since my family eats a lot of Korean food (yes we don't wear shoes in the house) we tend to scrape mold off a lot of things like kimchi, daengjang, gochujang, miso, marinated meats, etc. oh and I don't have separate cutting boards for meat and veggies ): I just clean after each use with dish soap and hot water. watch me get deathly ill tomorrow.... Btw, is there anyone else out there that likes to keep soups, stews, dishes of food outside at night? If it's cold outside and I made some stock, then i'll let it sit outside overnight so the fat can congeal. 9 times out of 10 there is no room in the fridge to put a huge ass stock pot in. Mon Nov 17 21:39:46 -0800 2008 4175362 24546 bitsubeats 2 4182056 "Btw, is there anyone else out there that likes to keep soups, stews, dishes of food outside at night? If it's cold outside and I made some stock, then i'll let it sit outside overnight so the fat can congeal. 9 times out of 10 there is no room in the fridge to put a huge ass stock pot in." Definitely. I live in a cold weather climate, and as far as I am concerned, when it is cold outside, the world is your fridge/freezer. I will take precautions about varmints, and I try to be mindful about not letting things freeze that shouldn't freeze. This habit is classic Korean Winnipeg mum behavior, and i totally do this. Sounds like Hannaone does it too! I don't do this in the summer though. Mon Nov 17 21:52:01 -0800 2008 4182051 89969 moh 3 4205430 haha, yeah... this is one advantage to living in the north. When holiday time comes around, your fridge/freezer space increases massively. Turkeys marinating in the garage, beer cooling in the snow. It is just getting to fridge temperature nowadays here in Toronto. :) Thu Nov 27 07:50:10 -0800 2008 4182056 16363 mogo 4 4206052 We have a 2 temp freezer, the sun porch, very cold, and and the garage. moderately cold. Our bulk head we use as a root cellar. Thu Nov 27 18:49:23 -0800 2008 4205430 93538 Passadumkeg 4 4284949 lol...that is probably the only thing I miss about the cold winters in Reno...even my garage was cold enough to store food overnight. Perfect for soups and yes, that Thanksgiving turkey that wouldn't fit in the fridge (I didn't dare leave it outside; too many animals around that like to eat...and, yes, Bears were known to have come to our neighborhood, especially in drought years. One particularly brave one tried to join the local highschoolers in their PE exercises...that was my son's PE class but the one day all year he stayed home sick so he missed all the fun...:-) Storing things in the garage is just not as effective in Las Vegas. Fortunately, both Christmas and Thanksgiving were unusually cold here, so I did cheat and put a few things out for a few hours..... Wed Dec 31 00:54:34 -0800 2008 4205430 10290 janetofreno 3 4213002 "Definitely. I live in a cold weather climate, and as far as I am concerned, when it is cold outside, the world is your fridge/freezer." Not just in Winnipeg, my Korean mom leaves out soups, stews, etc. overnight all the time and we live in Los Angeles. Mon Dec 01 17:17:29 -0800 2008 4182056 52651 spkspk 4 4213101 We live at Lake Tahoe in NoCal and have bears that wander around. Can't store anything edible outside. Bears will even break windows to get in!!! Mon Dec 01 18:02:25 -0800 2008 4213002 131001 c oliver 5 4217026 Bears, yes, well that is a very good reason not to leave food out! I would also include racoons. Those things get everywhere. Fortunately, we don't seem to have so much trouble with them. If I did have trouble, I'd stop putting things outside. Wed Dec 03 07:35:44 -0800 2008 4213101 89969 moh 6 4217122 Oh yeah, we have racoons also but it's the bears that I'm always thinking about :) Our SIL did store some beer on the deck last week but I figured that was safe! Wed Dec 03 08:07:17 -0800 2008 4217026 131001 c oliver 7 4217172 The only thing worse than a bear coming through your kitchen window to steal bacon from the fridge is a mean drunk bear coming through your kitchen window to steal bacon from the fridge... Wed Dec 03 08:30:26 -0800 2008 4217122 58743 alanbarnes 8 4217553 Wouldn't the beer make the bear mellow not mean (alliteration intended)? Wed Dec 03 10:24:17 -0800 2008 4217172 131001 c oliver 9 4217967 For mellowing the bear, I think special brownies would work better... but the munchies will ensure the bear breaks in for the bacon. Wed Dec 03 12:30:44 -0800 2008 4217553 89969 moh 10 4218224 Lots of special brownies around Tahoe, I'm sure :) Not that I would know anything about THAT!!! Wed Dec 03 13:52:49 -0800 2008 4217967 131001 c oliver 2 4182299 ""(yes we don't wear shoes in the house)"" When I was growing up shoes were a necessity as foot protection from nail heads and possible broken glass (from light bulbs/canning jars) that might have lodged in the wooden floor cracks. At least everyone was ready in case a dart for the outhouse for an overdue nature call. Our lifestyles then revolved somewhat of a community effort, so during the daylight time, a time that privacy did not exist. Monday - Saturday there was farming, canning, cooking, baking, butter making and so on. I cannot fully say what actually lead to this practice to be broken up, but I think that guy landing on the moon, played an important roll. Tue Nov 18 04:00:06 -0800 2008 4182051 60276 RShea78 1 4182069 Magic house here, too. There are evil magicians out there, though. Raw poultry and commercially-ground beef among them. Raw eggs? No problem. Mid-rare pork? Bring it on. Stew can sit out for a week, as long as it's simmered for a while each day. And there's no five-second rule here; the only challenge is to get the good stuff off the floor before the dogs do. Lately, I actually let a pressure cooker full of chicken stock sit at room temperature for better than a week (the pot got put away full) - after thorough sterilization, the stock was good for the people, and the solids were good for the pups. No ill effects on either account. But I won't eat commercial ground beef unless it's fully cooked. And anything that has touched raw poultry or its juices gets sanitized ASAP. I'd like to think that I manage risk intelligently, taking into account the likelihood and severity of any adverse consequences. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Mon Nov 17 22:04:04 -0800 2008 4175362 58743 alanbarnes 1 4183438 I will make sandwiches and such on the bare counter, no paper towel or plate. It's kinda gross when you consider I have two cats who love sitting on the counter and will completely invade my space when I make anything. Furry little face right in the mayo or butter? You bet. I also let them drink out of my cereal bowl. I let pizza sit out overnight and will still eat it the next day. Sour cream has probably been ingested past it's prime, I recently moved and found a jar of pickles that expired in 2005. I won't eat things off the floor though, 5 second rule or not. Cat spit hasn't killed me but I prefer my food without fur on it. Tue Nov 18 11:32:16 -0800 2008 4175362 194076 Stillwater Girl 1 4185224 germ-phobia was one of the cultural differences that fascinated me the most when I lived in the States. I had many roommates, housemates and friends when I studied there who made a fear of 'dirt and germs' into something of mythical proportions. One woman thought all eggs had salmonella, and that by cooking them you removed it. Another was horrified that I made mayo 'without cooking the egg first'. And the fact I kept eggs on the counter... a lot of it seemed to be about eggs, actually. And raw meat. I'd love to do an anthropological study of germs and the American psyche. But I digress... I try to keep a clean kitchen, but five second rule applies, eggs live on the counter (unless I'm bulk buying and need them to last a month), I buy cultured butter so it can stay in a ceramic covered dish on the counter (sweet milk butter tends to go rancid when left out - cultured butter just gets more cheesy in a good way). I defrost frozen food on the counter for a couple of hours or overnight. I taste food to see if it's off (heck, I can always spit it out!). Basically, I know and understand food safety (and the dreaded 'danger zone'!), so I feel comfortable knowing which rules I can and cannot push. And here's a big one, which I'm surprised no one else mentioned - I make a point of knowing where my perishable food comes from. I buy eggs from a farmer I trust, milk from a supermarket whose cold chain I trust, and meat from a butcher I trust. I would not eat a piece of undercooked chicken which came by way of those drippy, badly sealed raw chickens which are frozen and defrosted and frozen again in a supermarket with broken, dirty freezers. But if one of my free range, farm roast chickens is a little pink close to the bone? Hey, it's all good. One big no-no which I did this past summer was canning and not following the rules. It wasn't intentional, I just didn't read the instructions properly, and ended up canning (or rather, jarring) 30 pounds of tomatoes 'incorrectly'. Basically, I didn't boil the cold packed tomatoes long enough in the water bath (15 minutes. Shoulda been closer to 40. Oops) and I didn't follow a strict recipe with the tomato pasta sauce, and even put a thin layer of olive oil at the top of each jar before sealing (and processing for too short a time). Only discovered this afterwards, and of course, as everyone loves to remind me, 'botulism won't taste bad. And then you'll suddenly be dead'. Well, I finished the last jar of pasta sauce last week, and every one of those 20-odd jars were delicious. None were fizzy or funky, and since I'm here and typing, I'm guessing botulism didn't get me. Though all this said, I'll try to follow the rules next summer. Wed Nov 19 03:44:27 -0800 2008 4175362 10431 Gooseberry 2 4186844 Gooseberry 1; Bugs 0. Glad you're still with us! Wed Nov 19 13:42:40 -0800 2008 4185224 112096 Caroline1 3 4198639 Hehe. I thought of this discussion yesterday when cooking rice. It had weevils in it, but I couldn't quite bring myself to throw out 2 kg of perfectly good basmati. So I boiled it anyway, and guess wha - weevils float. So I just skimmed them off, and put any residual weevils down to extra protein. I remember reading somewhere that the average pasta eater consumes 250g of insects every year, as they get 'threshed' along with the wheat. And the Italians seem a pretty healthy bunch to me... Mon Nov 24 13:15:46 -0800 2008 4186844 10431 Gooseberry 4 4198937 My daddy always said "you gotta eat a little dirt in life." And, hey, they were dead and sterilized weevils, right?!? Mon Nov 24 14:50:45 -0800 2008 4198639 131001 c oliver 5 4211017 Of course. I only eat sterilized weevils! Sun Nov 30 23:35:39 -0800 2008 4198937 10431 Gooseberry 4 4199321 I was once troubled with weevils in my flour. Complained to veterinarian friend, and he just laughed and told me not to sift my flour because they'd clog the sifter, but to go ahead and use the four and enjoy the "protein bonus." If you rinse your rice, a la sushi rice, the weevils will float out in the rinse water. Can't do that with flour. <sigh> I passed down the market aisle that has my current brand of sushi rice the other day. I bought 2 kilos for $4.99 about four or five months ago, and thought it was expensive. Today the same bag is $9.99! Rice! Over $2.00 a pound! What a nightmare it must be in countries where rice is the staple food of daily life. Frightening! Mon Nov 24 17:22:21 -0800 2008 4198639 112096 Caroline1 5 4199365 Japonica rices are about $6.00 a pound here. Mon Nov 24 17:36:44 -0800 2008 4199321 36661 Sam Fujisaka 6 4200103 Sheesh! Long grain sushi anyone? Tue Nov 25 00:28:26 -0800 2008 4199365 112096 Caroline1 4 4205232 ""...average pasta eater consumes 250g of insects every year..."" How do they get off by not putting that on the ingredients list or the nutritional labels? ;-) FYI- Diatomaceous Earth (DE) is added to foodstuffs like flour and grains (along with related dry mixes). Food grade DE, is considered a natural form of insect control. Thu Nov 27 04:10:56 -0800 2008 4198639 60276 RShea78 5 4205651 DE is also a wonderful wormer for cats & dogs! Terrific stuff if you can find the food grade. Thu Nov 27 10:32:18 -0800 2008 4205232 143696 Catskillgirl 6 4205735 Last bag I got was from the local Ag. feed store. The DE I got was "Food Grade", as was the 50 pound bag of A&H Baking Soda, and 50 pound bag of Morton Salt. Although that was 10 years ago or better I no longer do the "bulk" thing. BTY- DE is also good for extending potato life in keeping the skins dryer. (+already mentioned insect control.) Thu Nov 27 11:56:06 -0800 2008 4205651 60276 RShea78 1 4186878 i too live in that magical house that is germ free. i am a complete germ-a-phobe and also a chef so i follow all the food safety rules in my house.. no body likes getting F.P god knows i've had it a fair few times. Wed Nov 19 13:52:17 -0800 2008 4175362 239184 snarky_chef 1 4187203 Me? Neurotic. If the Lord didn't want me to sterilize everything, he wouldn't have arranged for me to study microbiology at the University. Antibacterial dish soap, a dishwasher that heats to 180 degrees, anti-bacterial wipes, zillions of cutting boards, washing as much as I can, including the sponge and sink strainer, in the dishwasher at night; refrigerator segregation, dozens of clean dish towels, zip loc bags and air tight containers, awareness of temperature. I can probably teach a food safety class. That said, I do envy, on some level, those who can live with the five second rule and who think that a little vinegar will clean the sink perfectly. Wed Nov 19 15:30:11 -0800 2008 4175362 87837 RGC1982 2 4187277 RGC, you've smoked me out. I was trying not to respond much to a thread that I tossed at you all. My mother was a surgical nurse (Berkeley, one of the first and few Japanese American women to graduate pre WWII). I started in biochemistry and proceeded to agricultural, environmental, and social sciences. As a long practicing scientist and cook, I simply don’t see many dangers from a decently run home kitchen. On the other hand, it would be good for you to develop and give a food safety course. I would do my best to attend and to listen carefully! Wed Nov 19 16:00:41 -0800 2008 4187203 36661 Sam Fujisaka 2 4187292 A friend who is an RN once told me that even after scrubbing in for surgery, if you check your hands in a microscope, there is still bacteria present. Ever since, I don't stress too much about germs. What kills me is the commercial with the mother running after her kids with sanitary wipes ... I can think of time better spent with your kids. Properly cooked, even roadkill is safe to eat, magic dust or not. I often prowl the aisles of my supermarket looking for close coded French cheese which only gets better with age. I hate when the manager rips something that says "sell by yesterday's date" from my hands and throws it in the garbage refusing to sell it. Perhaps I need to find their dumpster. Butter on the counter, eggs out of the fridge, soup in a pot on the porch in cold weather. I'm fussy with raw fish and shellfish, but that's it. And I don't eat lukewarm chicken from a buffet either. Americans, it's true, are so sanitized, you have no defenses. Or else all your ancestors would have died from PF long before procreating. Wed Nov 19 16:04:05 -0800 2008 4187203 83338 birgator 2 4187688 RGC, WHY are you being so cruel to your immune system? Those antibacterials aren't good for you because they get rid of the good guys along with the bad guys. If someone comes up with a discretionary antibacterial soap, I'll think about it. Nothing wrong with cleaning a sink's drain (the mouth of the garbage disposal is arguably the most neglected and filthy part of any kitchen) with some good strong vinegar *if* it's followed by several kettles of boiling water. If I read you right, a sponge in a dishwasher isn't a great way to clean it. I start every day with washing my sponge out in detergent water for cosmetic reasons, then getting it wet, but not drippy wet, and nuking it on high for a full 2 minutes. Cleaner than a brand new sponge right out of the cellopack! Why would you envy someone who deludes themselves with the five second rule? I know what it is, but I don't understand why anyone would abide by it. Well, unless whatever they drop stays suspended in mid air for five seconds so they can catch it before it hits any possibly contaminated surface. I'm an artist, by training. I paint. If I drop something in a blob of paint, I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that it's going to come out with paint on it regardless of whether I get it out of the paint within five seconds or not. Germs and microbes and toxins are like paint. Touch 'em, they're Yours! So we see eye to eye on this one. But green or no green, I do use paper towels for things that have to be sterile. Dish towels just smear the germs around. But I do recycle and the house is all CFLs, and every appliance is energy star, so I do get some green points! And as soon as a paper towel manufacturer introduces large packs of paper towels that include a recycling bag for the used ones, I'm there! Meanwhile, the rest is up to Tinker Bell! She does a pretty good job. Wed Nov 19 19:07:55 -0800 2008 4187203 112096 Caroline1 3 4188539 Thanks for the sympathy, but my comment about the five second rule was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. I do know people who blissfully survive outdated food, food kept in the "zone" for hours, and a general lack of kitchen hygiene on a regular basis, and they are just fine. We joke that that have very strong immune systems. These are the friends that put raw crabcakes on their car floor "near the air conditioner vent" for the several hour drive home from the beach. As we say in Texas, "Bless their hearts". Thu Nov 20 06:56:33 -0800 2008 4187688 87837 RGC1982 1 4187304 I love the idea that I live in a magical house! Sam, thank you for that concept. I was originally seriously food paranoid yet after a few decades with jackp I had no choice but to either get over him or get over food paranoia. Guess which I chose. The only time I know I've become ill from food was from the salmonella in peanut butter a couple of years ago. Wed Nov 19 16:08:02 -0800 2008 4175362 12213 jillp 1 4188108 I live in a yo-yo house. I use clean spoons to take things out of jars, I may use bleach on hard surfaces to sanitize them, I don't eat any food that falls into the kitchen sink, I obey most defrosting rules, I don't leave food out, I wash my hands several times during meal prep, I have a huge stack of hand towels so I can switch to a clean one at will, I cut the chicken over here and the veggies over there, etc. BUT I don't always wash produce, I often fail to wash my hands at the start of meal prep, I don't bleach my huge stack of kitchen towels (I can't imagine that the washing machine really kills all those germs, can it?), I will eat a medium rare burger that I didn't grind myself, I can fail to swap out a pair of tongs part way through cooking, I occasionally eat something that fell on the floor (depends on how tasty the item is), I might eat leftovers that have been well handled but in the fridge for five days, I will eat yoghurt that has been opened and in my fridge for so long I'm embarrassed to say, and I eat food that was prepared by a particular relative who leads a truly charmed life. I can't decide if the yo yo nature of my house is best demonstrated by my eating the occasional item off the floor while refusing to eat anything that falls in the sink, or by my washing my hands during meal prep but not always before. I'm a puzzle. Wed Nov 19 23:10:45 -0800 2008 4175362 166172 saltwater 2 4198646 Actually, I think the clean-spoon-in-jars thing is a good idea. I've found through trial and error that dirty (i.e. covered in some other food) spoons do encourage jars of food to go off or grow mould quicker. Especially mayonnaise jars. So that's one hygiene thing which does make sense to me! Mon Nov 24 13:18:31 -0800 2008 4188108 10431 Gooseberry 3 4205654 One of the biggest gross-outs in food (to me) is to open a mayonnaise jar and find particles of canned tuna. Barf. It just bothers me - my big brother was guilty of this when we were kids. Now that he's supposedly an adult and enjoys cooking he has joined my side of the fence on this issue. Which his wife has done a couple of times! Yuck yuck yuck. Thu Nov 27 10:34:08 -0800 2008 4198646 143696 Catskillgirl 4 4218487 I have to agree with you there. Tuna doesn't keep as long as commercial mayonnaise, either. I think I'd toss it if I found tuna in there. Wed Dec 03 15:19:13 -0800 2008 4205654 166172 saltwater 2 4205243 Saltwater- I too have a "food in sink-phobia". I even drain the water off of my pasta or taters with my colander/strainer set elevated in a another pan. I totally refuse to set my colander in the sink for food draining purposes. Although I think I have a valid reason for my phobia... What is it about our parents (parents in general, and a recent BK employee) that would get off using the kitchen sink for a bathtub? GASP! Thu Nov 27 04:35:02 -0800 2008 4188108 60276 RShea78 3 4205518 I don't think i'ts at all unusual to use the kitchen sink as a bathtub. For babies. That's how I bathed mine. Thu Nov 27 08:47:20 -0800 2008 4205243 112096 Caroline1 4 4205578 Hey Caroline1, it is my phobia and I will be fearful if I want too... ;-) Thu Nov 27 09:32:41 -0800 2008 4205518 60276 RShea78 5 4205637 Well, all I want to know is whether you have children, and if you do, where did you bathe them when they were babies? '-) Thu Nov 27 10:20:15 -0800 2008 4205578 112096 Caroline1 6 4205653 The modern parent uses a plastic baby tub. Gently sloped back, non-slip surfaces, etc. Just one more thing they sell you that you don't really need. I can't imagine how people raised children before marketing was invented. The kitchen sink in my house still serves as a bathtub, though - for the Jack Russell Terrorist who thinks he runs the place. Thu Nov 27 10:34:07 -0800 2008 4205637 58743 alanbarnes 7 4205692 Are you certain that J.R. Terrorist only THINKS he runs the place? Thu Nov 27 11:16:28 -0800 2008 4205653 112096 Caroline1 7 4542759 As the servant to two JRT's ,(a one year old and a 13 year old) you only think he thinks he runs the place....in reality.....he really does Thu Mar 26 22:05:32 -0700 2009 4205653 61350 elkgrovestella 6 4205656 Kittens and puppies fit nicely in the kitchen sink as well. I do clean it out afterwards - I'm not a complete savage. :-) Thu Nov 27 10:36:02 -0800 2008 4205637 143696 Catskillgirl 6 4205684 Laundry sink or a laundry tub. Thu Nov 27 11:08:52 -0800 2008 4205637 60276 RShea78 7 4205695 Not everybody lives in a home old enough to have those luxuries. But there is a bathroom sink specially designed to work well as an infant bath. Thu Nov 27 11:18:11 -0800 2008 4205684 112096 Caroline1 8 4219352 Luxuries? LOL And I thought everyone, including the hillbilly's, with a wringer washer had those! Wed Dec 03 22:39:13 -0800 2008 4205695 60276 RShea78 9 4219654 And in the days when wringer washers were the latest thing, they too were luxuries. Thu Dec 04 06:07:28 -0800 2008 4219352 112096 Caroline1 9 4219883 Nope. I live in hillbillyland, but don't have a laundry sink or tub. For some reason my laundry room only has running water in the washer itself. :-( But I DO have a bathtub for myself, lol! Thu Dec 04 07:55:49 -0800 2008 4219352 143696 Catskillgirl 3 4218537 Oh, exactly! I understand about elevating the strainer in the sink. I do it by having the kind with a lip and a handle, so I can balance it across the smaller half of the sink. I found just the perfect size with a cushy handle, so I bought three of them. I think Caroline1 is right, that some bathroom vanities have tops/sinks designed for the bathing of children. Mine is just the right size. Wed Dec 03 15:47:51 -0800 2008 4205243 166172 saltwater 3 4262199 >>> What is it about our parents (parents in general, and a recent BK employee) that would get off using the kitchen sink for a bathtub? GASP! <<< IMO, that is like saying, "They operated on someone else in this room. I'm not going in there!" Geeze! Ya clean it out before and after! BTW - It was Taco Bell employees, and yes that was kinda gross. Sat Dec 20 12:12:13 -0800 2008 4205243 226942 al b. darned 1 4189665 I guess I live in a magic house...I just thought living this way all these years meant I had an iron clad stomach- versus my co-worker who obsesses over these things and is alwys sick...always. Drives me crazy when my husband is always putting the food which is defrosting or the meat that is coming to room temp back into the fridge -does he know I rarely rinse the vegetables? We keep a moderately clean house and yes I keep better business practices when I have guest coming- and they sure do keep coming. Thu Nov 20 12:20:41 -0800 2008 4175362 12675 cocoagirl 1 4190307 I definitely live in a magic house. I use wooden cutting boards. I eat raw and almost raw eggs and beef. Definitely believe in a five second rule. (I mean really; if you dropped a whole beef tenderloin on the floor, would you really throw it away?!?) I defrost almost everything on the counter as I'm always forgetting to plan further ahead. I pet my dog and cat and husband ! before and during food prep. If I'm setting the table for a dinner party and a knife blade has a water spot on it, I breathe on it and polish it right off. I read with great interest jillp's comment about getting salmonella poisoning from peanut butter a couple of years ago. I did also. But I was in Rio de Janeiro! We had joked about how every store had jar after jar of Nutella but no PB. So when we finally saw a jar, we bought it. I was pretty sick but didn't know from what til I read on the internet about the recall. Checked my jar and sure enough that was the culprit. To my knowledge that was my only food-related mishap. But if any of my friends (and former dinner guests) read this, I may have fewer at future parties :) I don't criticize the folks at the other end of the spectrum, but it ain't me babe. Thanks for a fun thread. Thu Nov 20 16:25:33 -0800 2008 4175362 131001 c oliver 2 4190334 pretty much what c oliver said. I have always said that in my Food Network show, the camera would pan back and find my dogs grooming themselves on the kitchen floor and my husband drying out car parts in the oven. I stopped being a germ Nazi when my then 6 month old baby (for whom I had religiously sterilized everything) crawled into the bathroom, and was found sucking on the plug hole in the shower. I reckoned if she wasn't dead in 24 hours, I could stop being so neurotic about germs. 20 years later, I have managed NOT to kill any one yet. Yep.. a definitely magic house dweller, here! Thu Nov 20 16:39:27 -0800 2008 4190307 86137 purple goddess 2 4190961 If you dropped a whole beef tenderloin on the floor, would you really pick it up and eat the whole thing raw? '-) Thu Nov 20 23:06:10 -0800 2008 4190307 112096 Caroline1 3 4191089 After a wash maybe.As a family we are VERY CAREFUL when we dress meat. Needless to say it isn't a STERILE ENVIRONMENT.Just how clean do you suppose the commercial slaughter establishments are?I think the NOT VERY when discussing the large ones.We first dress game in the field.In a window of correct temperatures there is a large margin of safety ON THE SURFACE.Wash hands meat etc,just what is on your floor that is so bad THAT IT CAN'T BE WASHED OFF ?Just think about the fellow that handled meat from dozens of carcasses and god knows what else touched your meat last.I am certain he has clean hands because these days he wears gloves.Yet touches everything without enough " BETWEEN " washing or glove changing.Or the chef preping you meat wearing gloves,meat> dials on the souvide cooker>knife>vacuum machine & film, all very careful and dainty.How many surfaces he contaminated in the name of clean hands,THE GLOVES ARE NOT. Fri Nov 21 03:55:13 -0800 2008 4190961 203919 lcool 4 4191699 One thing that people other than home-brewers tend not to be attuned to is the distinction between sanitation and sterilization. A sterile environment is hard to come by (think hi-tech clean room, with workers in space suits). But a sanitary kitchen is easy enough to maintain. The key is to minimize the introduction of pathogens into your food (by washing hands and avoiding cross-contamination), to limit their growth (by maintaining things at significant risk of contamination at safe temperatures), and to kill the little buggers before you ingest them (by fully cooking things like commercially-ground beef that have a significant risk of being infected). No kitchen will ever be sterile, but you can certainly reduce the risk of food-borne disease to an acceptable level by using common sense and good (not even necessarily best) practices. And as for that tenderloin that fell on the floor - any nasty stuff (primarily dog hair in my house) is on the outside. A quick wash (which I'd do anyway if eating it raw) and it's good to go. Fri Nov 21 09:00:31 -0800 2008 4191089 58743 alanbarnes 5 4201504 I sure do agree and now is the test. We have a 10 day guest,dear and sweet,can't cook,drinks a bit.DECIDED TO HELP ach.......two 11 pound pork loins,salted.sugared and wined just hit the kitchen floor.Tray ,rosemary and all sundry of mess.One quick cold water rinse,fresh tray,fresh wine and new herbs,still make the oven in time.How I snatched BOTH roasts faster than one of these VERY FAST hunting dogs is a puzzle.That they aren't allowed alone in the kitchen slowed them down I guess Now, ROOMBA ,fresh clothes,MORE WINE,quick mop,again bless my house keeper for a sense of humor and straight face,DINNER WILL BE SERVED ON TIME .Next,find a nice central ,comfortable and safe place to park Amanda (age 82) until some people arrive.MORE WINE and convince Amanda all is 100% OK just one more day in this large,busy house. Oh and sorry Sam,no good dumpster stuff here Tue Nov 25 13:05:21 -0800 2008 4191699 203919 lcool 1 4198704 i don't worry too much about stuff. still, i think i've learned a bit from living in asia, europe, east-coast cities and the south. to wit: bugs in the kitchen are bad. don't make it too inviting for them. love the pets but resist the temptation to feed them people food. rats must be exterminated. immediately. daily maintenance is better than weekly maintenance. that's about all i've learned. i'll try to figure out more stuff as i go. Mon Nov 24 13:35:38 -0800 2008 4175362 10627 steve h. 1 4201029 I am a food slob, in a magic house who is also a food safety nazi.... Talk about split personalities. I am an stickler for counter and equipment cleanliness, I do not have separate cutting boards for meat and veg, but I do have bleach and food prep here means sanitzing cutting boards between meats, veg, etc. I am a stickler about foods getting cold or hot fast enough, but when it comes to storage, I am pretty lax. if it looks good, smells good, and tastes good, we eat it. I forget to get things covered in the fridge, etc. I choose to leave butter out, covered, because it tastes better, I like my eggs, with runny yolks, my ceasar salad with raw egg and my hamburgers rare. I might not order some items in restaurants because I do not trust them to cook my hamburger rare, or my eggs runny. I think that there are lots of food safety guidelines that are reasonable and practical for home application and others that seem excessive to me. My magic house allows me to cook in my boxers and t-shirt, barefoot all day, and to be obsessive about raw poultry at the same time The five second rule applies, and the sun porch, basement, attic, and garage, have all served as extra cold storage when needed, in the right season. When cooking for others, or professionally, all bets are off and I insist on following all food safety regs. This was an interesting thread, sometimes funny, sometimes scary... Tue Nov 25 10:26:21 -0800 2008 4175362 52629 gardencub 2 4201112 My mother would make the Thanksgiving turkey and after dinner it would be placed back in the oven with the dressing inside. If it was a big turkey it might last until early the next week. For over twenty years, probably more, not one person got sick. Eventually we started to pull off the meat and stuffing and refrigerate, but just cause we were shamed into it! Also the business about cracking eggs in a separate bowl so if it is bad it will not spoil the whole"mix." 40 years of cooking and not one bad egg, ever! I have never been afraid of my food or cooking habits. A little bleach on the counters now and then, etc. Tue Nov 25 11:00:37 -0800 2008 4201029 210452 dcdavis 3 4201571 I firmly believe that some people don't understand that if, for example, there's no salmonella there to begin with, then it doesn't miraculously appear. Knock wood, I've never had a problem either. And, honestly, I think some of the safety measures taken aren't going to save us if there ARE pathogens present. Tue Nov 25 13:30:52 -0800 2008 4201112 131001 c oliver 4 4201662 C oliver, You are right, some folks have been frightened to death with warnings about Salmonella, I think a good dose of common sense and a critical eye are all most folks need. The things we should have learned as kids are the best preventions, Wash your hands, clean up after yourself, no double dipping, etc...are what most of us need. Tue Nov 25 14:13:04 -0800 2008 4201571 52629 gardencub 5 4211027 The only person I know who has gotten salmonella got it from cooked chicken meat on top of a pizza, served in a restaurant. And having worked in industry, trust me, you'll KNOW if an egg is off when you open it. I must say, I feel safer in my home kitchen than I do in many restaurants, where the people cooking aren't the ones eating the food, so the vested interest, well, isn't as vested. Obviously they don't want clients getting sick, but if the underpayed employees can get away with cleaning the counters less thoroughly, or not having to clean inside the extraction fan, if the boss isn't checking... Which is why I frequent a Chinese hole in the wall restaurant where they have a cat in the kitchen, and keep the raw dumpling meat stuffing in an uncovered bowl in the drinks fridge. I'd almost rather see the dirt than have it hidden away, and while I can certainly see the dirt in that place, I can also see the cook making the dumplings from scratch, to order, and know that at least they refridgerate the dumpling stuffing to begin with! Never gotten sick there, never heard of anyone else that has, either. Sun Nov 30 23:42:57 -0800 2008 4201662 10431 Gooseberry 3 4201654 I NEVER crack eggs in a separate bowl, that is just crazy! I have never had a bad egg in 42 years of life, at least not in the 36 years I can remember! Tue Nov 25 14:09:21 -0800 2008 4201112 52629 gardencub 3 4434333 To keep Kashrut, I grew up cracking eggs one a time in a glass bowl before adding it to whatever I made. Crack into bowl, check for blood, add to mix, crack another egg. But, this is the same family that bleached the sink and shoved everything else in the dishwasher with crossed fingers. It sanitizes in there right? Thu Feb 19 19:24:05 -0800 2009 4201112 152043 TampaAurora 4 4460212 it the thermostat (for wash and rinse water)is set at the recommended temperature YES a dishwasher does the job. restaurants/food establishments are required to have 160*f water,even with gloves ,too hot for by "hand" Sat Feb 28 07:07:21 -0800 2009 4434333 203919 lcool 1 4201600 Gosh, I thought I was pretty casual until I read some of the things folks DO seem to tolerate without the 'yuck' factor kicking in. That spoon-in-mouth-then-back-in-jar thing is just gross. But that is pretty much the only thing I've read here that seemed really beyond the pale to me EXCEPT the kitchen 'sponge'. I don't get the re-worked, nasty sponge when it is so easy to use a clean dish cloth to wipe up EVERY time and then just chuck it in the laundry. Best investment you can make in your kitchen sanitation is 21 dish cloths. Other than those minor quibbles, yup, I live in a magic kitchen, fed many, many friends who are still in the land of the living from it and have raised healthy kids who ate daily in it . Tue Nov 25 13:45:13 -0800 2008 4175362 24738 LJS 1 4201627 That explains it! My husband calls me Howard Hughes, so in order to spare myself further ridicule, I don't comment on his unsanitary poultry handling habits (I figured I'd wait and bring it up at the hospital where I can say, "I told you so"). But it must be magic that's kept me alive! Tue Nov 25 13:55:24 -0800 2008 4175362 227839 silvergirl 2 4202471 "Howard Hughes"!! Priceless! Come on, you Howard Hughes out there, time to step up with your contributions! Please. Tue Nov 25 19:58:23 -0800 2008 4201627 36661 Sam Fujisaka 3 4203370 But it's so hard to type with these fingernails... Wed Nov 26 08:21:59 -0800 2008 4202471 227839 silvergirl 3 4203391 Yes, please. We've horrified all the HH's out there so give it back to us :) Wed Nov 26 08:29:02 -0800 2008 4202471 131001 c oliver 1 4205888 I''m a bit of a "Do As I Say, Not As I Do!" Heads will roll if I catch my husband double dipping, but I somehow I can justify double dipping in the Vegemite jar (he doesn't eat it) Am I a bad person? Thu Nov 27 15:26:26 -0800 2008 4175362 222454 snax 2 4206067 Yes, you eat Vegemite! Thu Nov 27 19:00:58 -0800 2008 4205888 93538 Passadumkeg 1 4212946 I live in a magic house too, with a grungy magic carpet on the floor -- a magical place for the dogs who get to lick pots and dishes clean. Sometimes there's real organic garden dirt on the floor, and I regularly prepare meals with dirt under my fingernails. A developmentally disabled neighbor visits almost daily for his cup of decaf and snack -- consumed drooling, spilling, slobbering, barely coherent speech, but I love him! I am super healthy and I am extremely grateful. Mon Dec 01 16:49:39 -0800 2008 4175362 211115 neverlate 2 4220099 All these replies have made me realize my own inconsistencies. I'm militant about the appropriate use of my wooden board (fruit, veggies and herbs only), yet I'm lax about thorough cleanings after smashing a garlic clove on it and I go berserk if my SO puts anything oily or used dishes/cutlery down on that board. I will twitch if I see someone use a knife to spread something on bread or the contents of a sandwich, then put that knife in a condiment jar (either back into it or into a different one), yet I'm definitely guilty of tasting something from a jar, then dipping the spoon or knife back in for another taste (forgive me). I've used the same spoon more than once for tasting out of a pot on the stove. The 5-second rule applies, even though I'm only a mediocre housekeeper, at best. I frequently wear shoes in the house, when I know I shouldn't. My colour-blind SO is very easygoing about expiry dates, but I'm very diligent about sniffing, checking for discolouration and even tasting, to find out if something is off. I have little faith in my grocery store's ability to ship and preserve items at the correct temperatures, so I expect items to occasionally spoil before expiry/best before dates. I've seen it happen. I've brought items home that are already spoiled. I've also had yogurt look, smell and taste perfectly fine 2-3 weeks past the date on the container. I rarely use ketchup, so I've had to toss nearly full bottles that have been in the fridge for a year or two because the colour has faded and the smell is off. I love my Indian/Korean/Thai/Japanese/Chinese seasoning pastes, sauces and condiments. They hold up well over time. I'm concerned about hygiene, but I definitely think the magic dust protection service is hard at work in my house. We've never been sick from anything produced in our kitchen. I'll toss leftovers sooner than the SO will. I'll also replace dish towels and cloths much sooner than he would. I wash dishes and cookware right after the meal has ended. The biggest issue for me is with cleaning products. I was raised to believe in disinfecting countertops, sinks, etc., yet I'm very concerned about inadvertently ingesting residues from the products because foods have come in contact with them. Lately, I have been using vinegar and baking soda to clean my stainless steel sinks (there's no meat or poultry in the house -- only occasional fish and seafood). I'm hoping it's enough to keep them clean, but every so often, I panic and use the chemical sprays, for good measure. It concerns me that the use of the chemicals causes my nose to drip incessantly, makes my chest feel tight and burns my eyes. This stuff can't be safe if ingested in any quantity. Yet, a case of food poisoning would be far worse than a few minutes of toxic odours. It's interesting that between the two of us, the only times we've gotten sick from food were from a fast food establishment which served my SO a lukewarm burger that had mayo as a topping (need I say more) and when I brazenly bought street food from a woman selling tamales that were likely cooked the day before, then trucked in that morning from who knows where and allowed to sit, wrapped in a towel in a plastic bucket, for several hours in the sun (you get my point). I was asking for trouble ... and found it ... in Peru. The nurse at the health clinic scolded me for not using my head. Street food is great, when it's fresh and hot and prepared in front of you. I learned my lesson. Thu Dec 04 09:23:55 -0800 2008 4212946 239809 1sweetpea 1 4219918 The only time I have ever gotten food poisoning in someone's home was due to cross-contamination. Our host was Indian and not a meat eater and decided to grill chicken for some reason. He did not realize he could not use the unwashed cutting board and utensils that had come in contact with raw chicken on every other food he made. All 15 of us got salmonella poisoning, even those of us who had not eaten meat at the meal. I have gotten food poisoning at restaurants or felt somewhat queasy after a meal causing me to wonder if I were going to become ill (note - indigestion from eating too much or too rich a meal is not what I'm talking about - it's that "ooo, please God don't let me get sick" feeling). My unscientific conclusion is that home cooks are generally not quite as dirty as the clean police would have you believe and also that following the basic rules of hygiene are adequate in most situations. In other words, you need to use a clean knife and cutting board to chop your raw veggies, but if you didn't actually slop raw chicken on your counters, cleaning the entire kitchen with bleach solution probably isn't necessary. Just wipe up like you normally would. Also, washing your hands goes a very long way towards keeping things clean. Thu Dec 04 08:10:22 -0800 2008 4175362 71196 dalaimama 2 4220115 Great discussion! Reminded me of the great Ruth Reichl book, Tender at the Bone, in which she recounts some hilarious childhood experiences with her mother, who frequently served her family and friends foods of questionable age and condition. Thu Dec 04 09:28:49 -0800 2008 4219918 90033 oyster 1 4227190 Sadly, my 'magic house' bubble burst about a year ago when I gave myself and SO mild food poisoning with some chorizo that had been around too long! But that hasn't made me obsessive. I'm pretty fastidious when it comes to feeding others. When it's just me eating, the 5-second rule applies and if it smells ok I eat it, regardless of expiration date. But I draw the line at hair. I can't eat anything if there's been a hair in it. Yick. Sun Dec 07 10:50:29 -0800 2008 4175362 14139 Kagey 2 4227254 Ironic, because hair is probably one of the least threatening food contaminants (not that I would eat anything with hair in it, either). Sun Dec 07 11:27:37 -0800 2008 4227190 10832 Humbucker 3 4231800 Not really ironic, just illogical. I acknowledge that. There's no logical justification- it just totally grosses me out! Tue Dec 09 06:03:05 -0800 2008 4227254 14139 Kagey 2 4227335 I'd pick the hair out but I wouldn't thow the whole dish out. Odds are the hair came from one of the four of us: two humans, one dog and one cat. Sun Dec 07 12:18:38 -0800 2008 4227190 131001 c oliver 3 4227474 "Family Dirt" is much more acceptable than "Stranger Dirt". I'm pretty sanguine about "our" germs & dirt, not so much about "Stranger Dirt" which is much more ominous. Sun Dec 07 13:37:06 -0800 2008 4227335 15743 Sherri 4 4228277 I once knew a woman who said that any hair you find, just decide that it is yours... and move on! It kind of works in a strange way. Sun Dec 07 20:24:26 -0800 2008 4227474 111267 meatn3 4 4264012 In college, my husband named his beer "Hair of the Dog". It's nearly impossible to prepare anything without Zoe's contribution. Hence the game "who's hair was it?" The cat generally loses, as he seems to shed the least. When we've received food in restaurants and notice one piece of hair, then see more--ick. Can't eat it. Particularly when you get a glimpse of the greasy, sweaty person making your food... Sun Dec 21 11:21:49 -0800 2008 4227474 224238 Caralien 5 4275013 We have that game in our house, too. With each passing year I'm less competitive... Fri Dec 26 19:23:59 -0800 2008 4264012 58743 alanbarnes 3 4247329 LOL! With two cats, a long-haired large dog, and two humans living here, I'm hard pressed, no matter how careful I am, to cook or bake anything that doesn't end up with at least one hair in it. Mon Dec 15 03:42:06 -0800 2008 4227335 75881 vorpal 1 4227421 My approach : red wine....and lots of it . I say sterilize from the inside out !! :) Sun Dec 07 13:06:06 -0800 2008 4175362 153184 im_nomad 2 4262206 LOL!! But what a great idea!! Sat Dec 20 12:23:29 -0800 2008 4227421 226942 al b. darned 1 4247332 This post makes me feel *so* much better about my own food habits, so thank you for that! My mother had food poisoning once, and she's been an utter paranoid wreck ever since that time. I don't follow any of the rules, and seeing her fastidious adherence to them, I figured I was just a slovenly disaster: I thaw meat on the counter all day and marinate it there as well, I cut chicken on the same cutting board as everything else (washing it between uses if the ingredients to be cut after the chicken aren't to be cooked or won't be cooked very long), I leave food out for a couple days and still eat it, my butter remains outside of the fridge (probably not an issue as I eat about 1/3 a lb a day), I'll gladly use stuff that fell on the floor, I love homemade mayo with raw eggs and eggs cooked over light, I eat my pork undercooked, I'd never bother to check the temp of stuffing, etc. I've never - to the best of my knowledge - gotten food poisoning from anything I've cooked myself. Can't say the same about restaurants, though. Regardless, a couple unpleasant night of vacating all the tenants of my digestive system and feeling horrid isn't enough to inspire me to adopt steadfast food prep rules. Mon Dec 15 03:48:36 -0800 2008 4175362 75881 vorpal 1 4247403 I've always done my best to keep a clean kitchen, following all the "rules" (separate cutting boards, disinfecting, etc. etc.). Since acquiring a Filipino mother-in-law, however, I will eat from pots that have been sitting on the stove for who knows how long, and won't throw things out as quickly as I used to. ("AY! What are you doing, throwing out the good food?! You Canadians waste so much. Eat it!") So far, so good: perhaps I'm getting a magic stomach, too. Mon Dec 15 05:03:48 -0800 2008 4175362 125234 foodiemommy 1 4248062 Gee, I really hope I do, because I just fulfilled every-so-often craving for a half a pizza bagel for lunch and used some jarred sauce that I found in the fridge from the last time I had such craving. I can't recall if that was two weeks ago or two months ago. And for that matter, I don't know if the jar I tossed out of the fridge the other day was the "old" one or the "really old" one. Leaving me to wonder which one I was left with and used today. :) (PS - I only use jarred sauce for the pizza bagel cravings, and maybe am not so good at cleaning out the fridge, which is how I end up with multiple open jars) Mon Dec 15 10:10:15 -0800 2008 4175362 15357 Justpaula 2 4252405 Not a magic house here, but still a pretty good place to eat. I am a very good cook and a few months of cooking school has given me the sanitation knowledge I need to keep anything bad from happening. All I know for sure is that I have never, ever, gotten sick from anything I cooked, nor has anyone else. That said, I now live with Mr. Food Safety, the Germ Nazi. He has banned wooden spoons and cutting boards, and puts EVERYTHING in the fridge. I cannot allow anything to come to room temperature before I eat it, and quite honestly, meat that goes straight to the grill from the fridge does NOT cook correctly. If I want to thaw something from the freezer to cook that evening, I have to wait until he goes to the office, THEN take it out and leave it on the counter. It goes into the fridge just before he comes home, so he thinks it has been there all day. Ditto marinades. Leave the butter or cheese out to soften? Impossible. If I want to bake with room temp ingredients, I have to hide them in my office where he can't see them. He is convinced that every piece of chicken I bring home is teeming with bacteria, and will actually put meat and poultry on different shelves in the fridge (with ceramic plates underneath it all, even if it is in its original packaging). There are separate tongs/boards for the raw and cooked food we cook on the grill. After dinner, he is bustling in the kitchen storing away leftovers while I am still eating, and the food it still hot. And yet .... YET ..... in order to save himself a few killowatts, he will hand-wash dishes with tepid water, and they never, EVER get clean. I just take them from the dish drainer and put them into the dishwasher, where everything comes out equally clean and comparatively germ-free. Today I pulled out a knife (that I saw him "wash") from the block that was DIRTY! Who KNOWS whats down in that slot now? Ugh! This is a battle I learned long ago I would not win, so I devised my own work-arounds. Tue Dec 16 18:13:30 -0800 2008 4248062 102895 Cheflambo 3 4255419 One workaround would be to stop cooking?? Wed Dec 17 19:04:55 -0800 2008 4252405 58418 johnhicks 3 4258574 Oh my god! Do you have a community college nearby that offers classes in hypnosis and brain washing and how to successfully apply it? Meanwhile, we'll all pray for you! '-) Thu Dec 18 20:45:38 -0800 2008 4252405 112096 Caroline1 1 4252552 There isn't anything for me to worry/stress about because I keep everything clean, and never leave things on the counter too long, basically I'm on top of everything all the time. That's what I've been taught and that's what comes naturally to me. I won't have it any other way, and I will not eat at anyone's place who does not apply the same standards. Now if a hazelnut fell on the floor (my spotless floors which are cleaned and sanitized on a daily basis) then I see no problem picking it up and eating it, it's shouldn't be dirty) Cat fur is just about the only thing that is hard to control because it goes everywhere (through the air) but I keep it under control. I'm not afraid to eat raw eggs, raw fish.. home made mayo .. but I don't want any raw meats contaminating anything and I don't want food sitting out, once it's cooled down it goes straight into the fridge. Tue Dec 16 18:55:55 -0800 2008 4175362 224081 BamiaWruz 1 4261507 Everyone thinks they live in a magic house until one day the dangerous food poisoning troll (which is immune to the fantasy of "magic" preventing it from spreading sickness and disease) strolls in and causes strife throughout the land. My home is protected by common sense rather than by magic. Sat Dec 20 05:06:51 -0800 2008 4175362 98208 Orchid64 1 4261643 I live with a doctor who is fanatic about cross-contamination of raw chicken on cutting boards, in the sink, etc., but who was willing to eat scrapple that had been sitting in a refrigerator with no power for 5 days after our recent ice storm here in New Hampshire. Go figure. Sat Dec 20 07:10:41 -0800 2008 4175362 13003 whs 2 4262214 Anyone who eats scrapple has no standards, anyway. : > ) Sat Dec 20 12:26:48 -0800 2008 4261643 226942 al b. darned 3 4263385 ...and your problem with reconstituted pig snout mush is? Sun Dec 21 05:24:55 -0800 2008 4262214 13003 whs 4 4596958 >>> ...reconstituted pig snout mush... <<< LOL!!!! That's even better than the definition of head cheese: "pig jello." Tue Apr 14 23:25:37 -0700 2009 4263385 226942 al b. darned 1 4262231 After perusing all the posts I have come to the conclusion our house is more magical than I thought. I, too, grew up in an era when frozen food was left in the sink drainer all day to defrost before becoming that night's supper, and the Thanksgiving and Christmas turkeys were always roasted overnight in a low temp oven with the stuffing inside (after sitting in a plastic dish pan in the back room for several days to thaw). No one ever got sick in our house. After watching many a "travel food" show I am convinced we are waaaay too anal in this country when it comes to "food safety." In general we are germophobic and as such our kids have no immune systems. In many countries they cook over small fires built on the street, use old barrel tops for cooking grilles, eat raw meat (and lots of nasty parts), drink beverages that begin with the women chewing something and spitting the results in a jar, and generally seem to eschew anything we call food safety...yet they survive nicely, thank you. Meat thermometer? You've got to be kidding! Cook it in a hole in the ground? Sure, just wipe off most of the dirt before you eat it. So Andrew Zimmern is now shilling for Pepto Bismol...he just has a weak constitution. My motto is, "Clean enough to be healthy, messy enough to be happy." OK, OK, sometimes the place is overjoyed, and if someone came in and ransacked the place I'm not sure we'd notice right away, but I try to adhere to some basic cleanliness standards. For example, I have four flexible plastic cutting boards, each a different color. For raw meats, fish, etc. I use whichever one is on top...then it goes in the dishwasher after hosing off the big chunks w/hot water. (The same goes for bowls, plates, etc.) Veggies, which ever one is on top, etc. Boards used for non-raw protein items get washed with soap and hot water after use or go into the dishwasher. Knives used for raw protein, as well as the hands that handled them, get immediately washed in hot soapy water. And yes, I use a thermometer for checking doneness. Everything that can go into the dishwasher does. Other than that, my counter space is too limited to have special prep areas. Expiration dates are advisory only. Raw protein dates tend to be adhered to, but everything else is subjected to the look and sniff test prior to discarding. (I have seen milk last a week or more past it's date or go bad three days early.) I have found that mayo (Cain's All Natural without boiler chemical preservatives) is fine unopened in the pantry at least a year past it's due date, and still fine if kept in the fridge much longer than that. (We don't use that much mayo in our house.) Yogurt? Isn't that just spoiled milk? Expiration date on eggs? A chef once advised me, "If they are bad you'll know it the minute you crack it open." Yes I crack eggs into a separate bowl before adding them to the recipe, but only because it is easier to see and pick out the shell fragments. Refrigerator segregation? Yup. Everything is segregated in its own container or wrapper. Leftovers - if they smell and look OK they are available. I will to admit to being a bit more "careful" when we have guests over. (No five-second rule.) Some things are followed to the letter, even beyond sometimes. Even tho I have been canning for years, I always pull out the "bible" (Putting Foods By) each and every time and I don't cut corners or experiment. In general I feel too much good food is wasted under the guise of "food safety." I'm not talking restaurants, although even there we tend to go overboard. I bristle when I hear that as much as 25% of the food in this nation is thrown out! We should buy less, freeze more, and make smaller batches. For those who might say, "But we don't have time for all that." I say, "We make time for what we consider important." Sat Dec 20 12:37:02 -0800 2008 4175362 226942 al b. darned 1 4262542 I eat food off the floor no problem, eat all sorts of things like raw hamburger, raw eggs, but I AM a germaphobe. I drive everyone crazy with the handwashing and scrubbing. On the other hand my stove is so nasty sometimes (especially if I fry and overboil rice) and do not clean it - that when someone comes into the kitchen I am SURE they must think I am a skank. I am merely a zealous and somewhat scatterbrained cook! Sat Dec 20 15:27:02 -0800 2008 4175362 137755 Sal Vanilla 1 4264056 We definitely live in a magic house. No anti-bacterial soaps or portable hand sanitizers here, yet we are rarely sick. We eat most things; even things I've determined were "off" haven't made my husband sick (I'm guilty of "try this, does it taste off to you? I think it smells funny"). But I'm a germophobe publicly--use the back of my hand to open doors, a tissue to pull open doors and feet to flush toilets in public restrooms, won't use equipment at gyms... The times we've had food poisonings were from seafood in restaurants (recalling that we knew there was something wrong, but ate it anyway. Shrimp for him, oysters and mussels for me). Never at home, even when I've accidentally undercooked chicken, pork...it must be age that caused us to blatantly ignore the recall of spring onions, spinach, tomatoes and peppers last summer. The neat freaks I know are ill regularly. It must be like the comparison between heavy drinkers, moderate drinkers, and teetotelers--who's healthiest? The heavy drinkers tend towards liver problems, the teetolelers towards high stress, anxiety... Sun Dec 21 11:42:44 -0800 2008 4175362 224238 Caralien 1 4283045 I, too, have a magical house, but it has a down side: I can't make bread. Apparently my magic hands kill all yeast they come in contact with. Seriously. I'm a good cook. I've tried to make yeast doughs off and on for almost 40 years now with nothing but leaden lumps to show for my efforts. I've given up. I look with longing at recipes for homemade cinnamon rolls, knowing I'll never be able to make them. And no, while this may be TMI, I've never had a yeast infection, either. Tue Dec 30 09:59:12 -0800 2008 4175362 10159 Ruth Lafler 1 4284943 Maybe a bit too serious of an answer for your lighthearted question, but could it be where you live? I think that many in the United States are obsessed with sanitation to the point where they have never had a chance to build up any immunity....some even blame this for such ills as the increase in childhood asthma here, etc. I am not very careful about food poisoning...and I can't remember the last time I was really sick in that sense (a little cold sure, but that comes from folks who sneeze on me at work...). I am fussy about leftover food, and throw it away if it hasn't been eaten in a day or two. But that has little to do with sanitation and more a taste thing....very few things taste as good to me if they've been sitting in the fridge for several days. Which of course my husband thinks is the problem. He's even less careful than I am. And he hates to put his curries and soups in the fridge once they've been cooked. He insists that the beauty of his cooking (he's from Gujarat in Western India) is that the spices used protect against food spoilage in warm climates. He might be right to some extent, but I can't see leaving the dal out all night, especially when I want some for breakfast. Needless to say, I am responsible for putting food away in my house. So maybe it is that "where you live" thing...or at least where you grow up. .... Wed Dec 31 00:43:27 -0800 2008 4175362 10290 janetofreno 2 4289731 This is a very interesting thread!! Fri Jan 02 09:20:43 -0800 2009 4284943 253426 onthefood 1 4428104 I thought of this thread yesterday when my husband and I had the last two mugs' worth of a soup that I threw together over a week ago. The base broth were two vegetable with meat stocks from New Year's, the meat was leftover from a slow cooker recipe of chicken and artichoke hearts that had been in the freezer a couple of months. Then I just kept adding and adding and adding until it finally tasted right. By then I had a medium stock pot that was really full. That pot sat on the stove for DAYS before it got to a small enough volume that it would fit in anything that could go in the fridge. Then we ate on it for days longer. I chuckled when I thought of this thread and how cringe-worthy this would be to some people. Thanks for starting this, Sam. And I've noticed that "magic house" has become part of my lexicon :) Wed Feb 18 07:41:43 -0800 2009 4175362 131001 c oliver 1 4542804 Does anyone on this thread know where I can get a multi-stage decontamination chamber for home use? How much does one of these run up the electric bill? Thu Mar 26 23:22:18 -0700 2009 4175362 226303 keith2000 1 4553685 Having grown up in a house where my father refuses (to this day) to throw anything out (we still have a VCR from like 1985, and it doesn't really work), I have learned that as long as it doesn't smell bad or look funny, it's edible. I am now a college student, so our sanitation practices are...interesting. The 30 second rule is definitely used. We are actually very clean, so it's not a big issue, but my roommate and myself have slobs for suite mates, so when they leave their dirty dishes in the sink over the 6 week Christmas break (oh yes, I am sure they were nice and crusty), and when a bag of their junk food sits under a chair for several weeks, and we get ants, my roommate and I just have to laugh, put our food away properly, and eat anyways. Tue Mar 31 06:30:58 -0700 2009 4175362 114194 milkyway4679 1 5177126 I definitely live in a magic house! I think my bf would be surprised if he knew how lax I can be. I feel like I know what's what b/c my dad was a public health inspector. He said that the number one thing to worry about was "keeping hot things hot and cold things cold." So I stick to that! Otherwise I am only so-so on veggie washing, counter wiping, and leftover disposal. I eat anything that smells fine, period. Thu Nov 12 16:25:21 -0800 2009 4175362 1122808 LolaP