Help with San Fran/Napa Itinerary!

[vegaschick]

I'm headed to San Francisco this weekend with my fiance. I am a very adventurous eater, but he's more of a meat and potatoes kind of guy. We are on a pseudo-budget. Any help is VERY much appreciated. Oh, also we are from Vegas so I'm trying to avoid San Francisco places that also have another Vegas location (ie Michael Mina).

Day 1: Friday night. Plan lands at 8:30 PM, we are staying at the Intercontinental on Howard Street (Soma neighborhood). Any suggestions for a place with good bar food that's open late? My backup is Pearl's burger, but would prefer a place with a good burger or comfort food that has more of a "bar" or "lounge" type atmosphere.

Day 2: Saturday: quick breakfast somewhere near hotel, then Alcatraz tour. Dim Sum in Chinatown (what's the best place for this?), then walk around there and North Beach.. probably get a gelato/coffee somewhere. No major plans in the afternoon, maybe roaming around Haight-Ashbury area some.. would like to ride the cable car at some point up to Nob Hill.
Dinner.. somewhere under $200 for 2 people that's very "San Francisco" in the Union Square/Soma/not too far area. Ideas I've come up with are Gary Danko, and Ame, but open to suggestions.

Day 3: Sunday - Brunch at Farm (yes, no?) then drive to Napa. Probably try to see one winery in the morning then lunch (Boon Fly Cafe?), then another winery.
Wineries - Cakebread, or Del Dotto, or Domaine Carneros, or Van Der Heyden, or Artesa, or Hagafen.
Staying at River Terrace Inn. Would like to stay in that area for dinner.. considering The Pearl (thoughts?)

Day 4: Monday - Platypus tour all day. Would like to do something less "California" for dinner. Thinking Red Rock Cafe BBQ. Is it actually good? We are originally from TX.

Day 5: Drive back to the city and eat Lunch somewhere on the way back to SFO (?) that has parking!

I know this is a long, difficult request.. but any tips/suggestions/etc anyone has are greatly appreciated. I will be sure to write a detailed report when I get back.

[chefpels]

Del Dotto used to have a really cool barrel tasting tour, but you HAVE to have a reservation so plan accordingly. I know they moved in the last couple of years and haven't done the tour at the new facility, but it was pretty cool. You've got some travel time between SF and Napa though. Probably not realistic to have brunch then winery, then lunch, then winery...Realize it'll take you a 1 1/2 hours to shuffle between the two. Tra Vigne in St. Helena has always been a fave of mine, but pretty fancy. Consider doing lunch/tour at CIA Greystone? Rutherford Grill (although I think it's associated with the Bandera's chain) is at least consistent, and may be more to your fiancee's liking. I would put Mustards in that category as well. Hydro Bar in Calistoga isn't bad for a beer/burger place. Back in the city, Zuni is a classic, but again bordering on the fancy. Make sure to check out Cowgirl Creamery at the Ferry Bldg. and try any of the displayed fromage for free. BTW don't rule out Danko. I'm a chef and Danko disciple, and I would put it up against any restaurant in the country that I have been to.

[maria lorraine]

Agree on Del Dotto, travel time between SF and Napa, Ruth Grill, and Hydro, but it's way far up in Calistoga and the burger is the only good thing. Agree about Zuni, Cowgirl Creamery, and I'm a fan of Danko but haven't dined there recently. Have you been lately, chefpels?

Disagree strongly about Tra Vigne and CIA and Mustards. For what you get for the $$$$ money you'll spend at those places, those three aren't even close to the dining experience you'll find elsewhere.

<<Realize it'll take you a 1 1/2 hours to shuffle between the two.>>

I don't know what this refers to...unless it means the time between SF and Napa.

[chefpels]

Sorry to hear you're not a Tra Vigne fan...I have been going since Chiarello was still chef there, although it' s been about 2 years since I've been last. Yes, very spendy, but very good. Interestingly enough, the last time I dined there Michael Chiarello was walking in just as I was. Apparently he had not been back to Tra Vigne in a number of years (kicked out is the term our waiter used). Anyway, I have to agree with you about Mustards and CIA, but at least with CIA you can tour the facility which might be kind of interesting. Last time I was at Mustards it was definitely uninspired, but Vegas Chick mentioned her fiancee is more 'meat and potatoes' type and outside of Ruth Grill, there doesn't seem to be that many choices for that type of cuisine, at least not in Napa. Unfortunately most restaurants in Napa area are overpriced and geared towards tourists. I mentioned Calistoga because it's a little less pretentious and pricey. Isn't there a brewery on the right hand side as you turn off the highway? I seem to remember they serve a pretty good menu there. Can't remember the name though.

[wolfe]

Is this it.
http://www.calistogainn.com/

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Calistoga Inn
1250 Lincoln Ave, Calistoga, CA 94515

[maria lorraine]

Yes.

Chefpels...I've dined at Tra Vigne twice in the last 6 months and both meals
were lackluster but the bill was pricey. I tasted about 15 dishes at my last meal --
only two were well-prepared. The rest were OK, but OK doesn't cut it at high prices.

My understanding from living here is that there are many "meat and potatoes" offerings in Napa Valley -- at least every resto has a few entrees to satisfy that type of eater. Even if one isn't
normally a m&p eater, every now and then you need a "stick to the ribs" meal, and those
options are rather easily found.

Maria

[rworange]

Gary Danko is a nice restaurant but I would hardly classify it as very "San Francisco". You could probably find a restaurant like this in most metropolitan areas.

One of my favorites is 1550 Hyde, a true SF neighborhood bistro with a great wine list that is also right on a cable car stop so it is easy to get to ... certainly easier to get to and closer than Gary Danko.
http://home.earthlink.net/~zootster/

Nearer you would be a combo of Coco500 and Orson ... Coco500 for dinner and Orson for drinks and appetizers.
http://www.coco500.com/
www.orsonsf.com

On Saturday, I would hop on a street car on Market and go down to the Ferry Plaza Farmers market which in addition to being something, IMO, that any SF visitor should see, also has a lot of swell breakfast options ... from stands selling bacon and eggs to wonderful baked goods to so much sampling of top notch fruit, cheese, etc that you really could just save money on breakfast. From there it is easy to hop on the Embarcadero streetcar to get to Fisherman's Wharf for your Alcatraz tour.

I have yet to read anything positive about Bay Area BBQ anywhere from anyone from Texas. It is fine if one gets desparate enough, but IMO, a wasted meal for a visitor. Also if you want something less "California" , BerBerQ is not your place. It is BBQ interpreted through the Napa Valley served in an ugly, sterile, cramped, way too self-conscious and modern restaurant with indifferent service and located in a shopping mall . I have yet to have the BBQ, but I did have one of the worst hot dogs in my life there ... ditto on awful baked beans... over $10 for that 'priviledge'. Locals seem to like it as it is one of the few BBQ games in the area and Michelan, which has no clue about Bay Area food, mentions it in their guide.

If your fiance is a meat and potatoes kind of guy, you might consider the porchetta sandwiches at either Fatted Calf or Rotisario in the Oxbow Public Market. Yeah, California ... but in a good way ... and you could always stop by Taylors refresher for a burger. Having sated your meat-loving fiance, maybe you could talk him into a stop for snacks at Ubuntu down the street ... sooo California .. they don't serve meat, but they are not vegetarian ... they serve amazing dishes with cheese, eggs, butter, cream, vegetables ... they just don't have meat. There are pizzas too. You could sit at the bar and soak up the vibe.

Or next door to Ubuntu is Cole's Chop House which gets lots of positive mentions on the board, though that might be pricier than you would like.

You could always save Coco500 for lunch on Tuesday as there are lots of parking lots near it. There are some good dim sum places near SFO so if that interests you, a better option that dim sum in Chinatown. If in Chinatown it might be better to nosh on dim sum items at many of the tiny bakeries. In North Beach, I like Caffe Roma a lot. Cafe Trieste can be fun too. Get a cup of Grafeo coffee and the wonderful XOX truffles and get a free truffle with it. North Beach has ok gelato at best.

[vegaschick]

Thanks for all the incredible suggestions! I will definitely be adding quite a few to my itinerary. Right off the bat 1550 Hyde looks awesome - a local type place with reasonable prices and wine . I really appreciate all the time you put into your response. I will have to do some serious menu research tonight. Thanks again.

[vegaschick]

As a follow up question.. maybe I should hit the Farmers Market at Ferry Plaza on Tuesday. Flight is at 2:30, so if I got there around 10 AM when they open should give me enough time to roam around and whatnot before leaving at 12:00 to catch my flight. Are the Tuesdays as good as Saturdays? Close enough at least?

[wolfe]

No.

[rworange]

Yeah, the big market day is only on Saturday morning starting at 8 am and running until about 1pm. Not even close.

There are a number of shops at the Ferry Plaza building in side the building, some of which are good, but it won't give you any clue about the farmers market which is the real draw at that spot. Not a good place for parking. However, should you decide to do that, Yank Sing is a dim sum place about a block away in the lovely old post office building. It is pricy and people usually either love it or hate it. Great sesame balls there.

Don't know how farm is for brunch, but something you might consider is Murray Circle in Sausalito. It is the VERY first exit after the Golden Gate bridge. It is in a converted Military Base that is just lovely and has a bit of a bay view. The best croissant I have ever had in my life. The pastry chef worked at French Laundry.

Another thought would be stopping at the Sunday San Rafael farmers market on the way up to Napa. Maybe the second best farmers market, though not so much breakfast stuff. It is at the foot of a building designed by Frank Lloyd Wright.

Searching Places will give you some links to reports and websites.
http://www.chow.com/search?search%5Bq...

Wherever you go, hope you report back.

[Claudette]

I second the Ubuntu rec - it's so unique and delicious. Surely your SO can put off one meat & potatoes meal so you can experience a meal unlike any other? People rave about their "blueberry cheesecake," but I say don't miss their cauliflower dish and the deep-fried soft egg salad.

-----
Ubuntu Restaurant & Yoga Studio
1140 Main Street, Napa, CA 94558

[wolfe]

Looking at the present menu sample, it is possible he could have a Reuben Pizza with sauerkraut, Swiss cheese, purple mustard with apple garlic confit & caraway seeds. How cool is that? Oops! no corned beef or pastrami. Liked Red Rock hamburger but loved my meatless lunch at Ubuntu.

[rworange]

Hmmm ... purple mustard. Could always smuggle in some pastrami from Fatted Calf down the street.

There's also mac and cheese on the menu ... but I'm guessing like the huevos ranchero, it is a different take on this dish.

[wolfe]

I am assuming that purple mustard refers to mustard made by blending red grape juice with just-ground black mustard seeds and not a preparation or leaves from the plant, purple mustard Chorispora tenella.

[vegaschick]

Ubuntu menu looks good.. I'll have to print it to show to my SO and see if I can talk him into it ! I think we are going to hit up Murray Circle for sure. Thanks rworange for your very detailed review/menu list in another post. Definitely helped me make my decision.

[vegaschick]

Ok, as a follow up question for those that are still reading! I think on the Platypus tour they are promising to take us to small family owned boutique type wineries.. which is great. I think on Sunday we might do a couple of the more commercialized big ones just so we can see a nice range of wineries.

For red: cakebread cellars or silver oak? Which is a better tasting "value" and more interesting. I've had both wines in restaurants before and enjoyed them.

For sparkling: Domaine chandon or Shramsberg. If I go to Domaine is it all grocery store type stuff? Is the Shramsberg all insanely expensive? Which is better overall?

[maria lorraine]

My 2 cents, worth less these days.

I love the burgers, killer mac'n'cheese, and truly great onion rings at Boonfly, and recommend you sit at the zinc bar. Brunch is fine at Farm.

I think you wil be truly disappointed in Red Rock and BarberQ. For different reasons, I think your SO will be disappointed in Ubuntu if he is a meat and potatoes guy. Ubuntu is also pricey. Instead, I would recommend the pizza and burgers at Bistro Don Giovanni, Azzurro Pizzeria, the beer-can chicken at Bounty Hunter and other spots I've noted in other posts. I'm not fond of Oxbow or its food, compared to the vast array of what Napa Valley has to offer, but rworange likes it. All these spots are very near your inn, but there are many other options as well.

I can't recommend either Silver Oak or Cakebread. The quality of Silver Oak has seriously deteriorated over the years, the brand has coasted on its former glory. Cakebread still makes good wine, but the winery is a tourist trap and not worth it.

If you tell me what kind of wine you like, I'm happy to recommend a few wineries. (I live in Napa Valley and work in the wine biz.)

Once you've had the experience of small boutique wineries, you may never want to visit a big winery again. Where is Platypus taking you?

Schramsberg towers over Domaine Chandon. Absolutely no contest, and it could be the best winery visit in the valley. Worth every penny.

<<Day 3: Sunday - Brunch at Farm (yes, no?) then drive to Napa. Probably try to see one winery in the morning then lunch (Boon Fly Cafe?), then another winery.
Wineries - Cakebread, or Del Dotto, or Domaine Carneros, or Van Der Heyden, or Artesa, or Hagafen. >>

Makes no sense to have brunch at Farm, drive into Napa, then go back to Farm/Boonfly (they're on the same property) to have lunch. Perhaps have brunch at Farm, then head to taste at Trefethen (one of my favorites and just down the canyon road -- not the highway -- from Farm/Boonfly), and a couple of other Carneros wineries. Though my preference would be to head north of Napa after Trefethen (the wineries don't start to get hot and heavy till Yountville), taste some more, grab a quick bite to eat somewhere (the burritos at La Luna Market in Rutherford are great for lunch) or even buy a picnic. To stay in the Farm/Boonfly/Carneros area would be limiting IMO You could taste as far north as Rutherford or St. Helena, dine at the Ruth Grill, head down Silverado Trail after dinner and that would be an easy way to get back to your hotel. Or eat somewhere in Yountville (do a search) and head back to your hotel after that.

One thing to remember is that Napa Valley is laid out like a long ladder. There are two main roads -- those are the sides of the long ladder: Highway 29 and the less-busy Silverado Trail. All the five little towns have crossroads -- the rungs of the ladder -- that connect the two main roads. It's very easy to navigate.

[maria lorraine]

I just read the list of available wineries from Platypus. The best ones by far are Saddleback,
Silverado, Honig, Trefethen, and Merryvale.

Farther north, I'd recommend Chateau Montelena and August Briggs, but not at the expense of the others.

There are two or three others -- Ceja, Sullivan, Venge -- but that's about it. Sort of a lackluster list.

[wolfe]

While I enjoyed my hamburger at Red Rock I did not try the Q. However, it is a small place and you might find the Bar bers Q to be a better space, if you can find it.
http://www.barbersq.com/

-----
Red Rock Cafe
1010 Lincoln Ave, Napa, CA 94558

Q Restaurant
3900 Bel Aire Plz, Napa, CA 94558

[vegaschick]

Awesome, I will look into Bar Bers Q!

[wolfe]

I had hoped the place link would get you previous reports. However, while it links for Bar Bers Q, the name they prefer, the information comes up with a search for Barber Q.
http://chowhound.chow.com/search?sear...
Perhaps the computer folk on this board can fix it.

[rworange]

The OP can click on the duplicte records links to get to the original place records with reports. Adding them here, at this point, doesn't add any useful info for someone in the future looking for recs. I mean, if someone wants to they can, but the next people looking for reports about either place is just going to wind up with this post and not a lot of info. For the future, in the Places database it is Berbersq ... no spaces.

[PolarBear]

"BerbersQ" not BarbersQ? God, I hope they're not grilling Moroccan rugs and camel bags. ; >P

[rworange]

Perhaps it tasted like chewing on a camel bag to me. Anyway, no spaces.
http://www.chow.com/places/7696

BTW, I haven't tried it, but about three blocks from your hotel is Soma Inn Cafe. I've been reading good things about their breakfast. I suspect it is a neighborhood place rather than a destination, but it sounds decent, esepcially the Joe's special
http://www.somainncafesf.com/breakfas...

I'd still go to Ferry Plaza though on Saturday.

[Melanie Wong]

BarBersQ with only one "e", copied and pasted directly off the Place record (so no typo).

[wolfe]

Maybe you should take it up with their website. Will that be one hump or two?
http://www.barbersq.com/

[kresge86]

BarbersQ is in a strip mall, and looks out on to a crowded parking lot (the strip mall is incredibly busy, since it also houses Whole Foods, Target and Trader Joe's). Not exactly the Napa Valley experience most people are seeking. Other restaurant options to consider - Cole's Chop House (if you're willing to splurge on a very good steak) in downtown Napa and Bistro Don Giovanni (considerably better than Tra Vigne IMHO). Jonesey's at the Napa Airport used to be a nice "old school" place for "meat and potatoes" but I don't know if that's changed since the remodel.

[wolfe]

"plus ça change, plus c' est la même chose"
http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/481145