567728 Mon Oct 27 07:47:20 -0700 2008 48 31 Home Cooking 0 4131448 I made risotto milanese from Macella Hazan for the first ever time last night. I was trying this as a make ahead dish. I cooked it up until about 20 mins and 1 ladle of broth left. Then left it off the burner for about 2 hrs. I went back to finish it and it took and extra 3 ladles over the recipe to get it close to the right consistency. However, it was still a lump, not creamy. The rice itself was done perfectly though. Was this just the result of leaving it? Or did I try to go too slow/fast? I was having a hard time with the temp, I would add a ladle of liquid and it would absorb in seconds....is this normal? I was wondering if my heat was too high and the liquid was just boiling off. I am going to try once more before my big dinner party. Mon Oct 27 07:47:20 -0700 2008 105701 cleopatra999 1 4131459 It sounds like maybe your heat was too high. I wasn't sure from your post - have you made risotto before? I found it took me quite a while to figure out the right amount of heat. I think I go with having it just barely, if even, simmering. Mon Oct 27 07:50:18 -0700 2008 4131448 10985 MMRuth 2 4137542 Second heat too high, and I do not believe that it's safe to leave rice at room temp for two hours and then reheat. You've created a perfect environment for growing pathogens here, and unless you cook the hell out of it, your risotto might make the consumers mighty sick. Wed Oct 29 17:46:06 -0700 2008 4131459 11995 pikawicca 1 4131511 I agree with MMRuth about your heat being high. It sounds like it was going too fast if the liquid disappeared that quickly. Also, I've never let risotto sit that long, so perhaps that contributed as well. I've done what you indicated about leaving a few ladles of broth left at the end. But I've only ever let it sit for a max of about 15 or 20 minutes (never 2 hours). When doing that, I find that putting a towel over the pot instead of the pot lid seems to help. I've really no idea why this is so but it does seem to help. Mon Oct 27 08:12:54 -0700 2008 4131448 104084 LNG212 2 4131603 I am having a dinner party and did not want to spend 30 mins in between courses making risotto, so it will have to sit for probably 2hrs so that is what I am trying. yes this is my first time. Mon Oct 27 08:45:34 -0700 2008 4131511 105701 cleopatra999 3 4131650 To hold risotto that long, make sure to undercook it ( I don't know how much you made to know if 20 minutes is enough time but it's about that much time) and then, you can spread it on a jelly pan and refrigerate it. When you're ready to cook, you heat up the remaining stock and add the rice, stirring constantly. I agree w/ MMRuth that the heat was too high. It takes a while for the rice to absorb the liquid (which should be warm but not boiling). Mon Oct 27 08:59:26 -0700 2008 4131603 39874 chowser 3 4132399 Are you sure you want to make risotto for this dinner? I mean, I admit I'm the first one to experiment on my friends, but making risotto really is something that you sort of learn how to do over time. It's not hard to make but you need a bit of practice until you understand how the rice absorbs the liquid, how high the heat, how much to stir, etc., etc. After that, it's easy - but requires attention. That you've never made risotto before and that you want to hold it for 2 hours before finishing tells me that this might not be the best choice for you dinner party. Why did you decide to make it for this occasion? Mon Oct 27 13:13:02 -0700 2008 4131603 12383 Nyleve 4 4132409 Yes, I guess I agree - I never make risotto for guests, unless I'm not serving a first course. I would love to try the make ahead methods, but haven't done so yet. Mon Oct 27 13:16:42 -0700 2008 4132399 10985 MMRuth 5 4132500 I agree w/ Nyleve and MMRuth. I got into a risotto phase a few years ago and did it often. But, once I tried making it ahead of time and did it the same normal way, only adding a some hot liquid at the end. It was terrible, lumpy, congealed, sticky, not the perfect al dente it was an hour earlier. That's when I started experimenting and found the cooling on the cookie sheet method in a cookbook, and online. It does work but I don't love the extra time it takes, and extra pans to wash. So, unless I'm prepared to be cooking it while guests arrive, I go with something like polenta. Nothing beats freshly made risotto, though. Mon Oct 27 13:46:21 -0700 2008 4132409 39874 chowser 5 4133672 But but ... risotto *is* the first course! I mean, I like soups, but unless it's a feast day, you really only need either a wet soup or a dry one in one meal. Tue Oct 28 03:28:13 -0700 2008 4132409 177724 tmso 3 4133673 Make the risotto as a first course. Serve the osso bucco with bread. Tue Oct 28 03:29:15 -0700 2008 4131603 177724 tmso 4 4133888 We are doing a 5 course meal, we have another 'first' course. Tue Oct 28 06:48:13 -0700 2008 4133673 105701 cleopatra999 1 4131726 risotto should be cooked on high or medium high heat. that's how an italian taught me. there really isn't a time frame for adding liquid. liquid is added when most of the liquid you've already added has practically dried up. and you're supposed to constantly stir. there are these attempts to make it and then walk away but that's not really risotto, imo. the agitation of the grains and the constant stirring and the heat and the addition of liquid is what helps create the creaminess. you can make it ahead and remove it from the burner. but i would not add the cheese and the butter until i was ready to serve it. but, you'd have to add extra liquid to loosen it up because risotto should not be tight. if you get lumpy stuff that still has the flavor, i'd just make little risotto cakes. or, i just would not bother making it for company. Mon Oct 27 09:23:44 -0700 2008 4131448 181629 misa 2 4132467 This last reply anticipated my suggestion. If you have a time problem, best to prepare the risotto ahead, refrigerate several hours or overnight, and serve risotto cakes browned in butter. I find that the cakes from leftover risotto go oever better than the risotto. The risotto should be relatively soft when pu in the fridge. The cakes are great with a mixed green salad...excellent brunch dish. Mon Oct 27 13:37:56 -0700 2008 4131726 12274 OldTimer 3 4132596 The reason I am using risotto is that we are having a traditional Italian feast and I have chosen Osso Bucco for the main course, therefore I am continuing with tradition and doing a risotto milanese with it. I suppose I could substitute polenta, but we are also trying to go gourmet, polenta seems more rustic, risotto fits the bill. I have 3 weeks until the party and I will be trying it at least one more time b4 the dinner. does the pot matter? Mon Oct 27 14:21:21 -0700 2008 4132467 105701 cleopatra999 4 4132648 Risotto is tricky, and I probably wouldn't recommend doing it for a dinner party unless you've done it a few times. But if you insist on risotto, you need to cook it about halfway and cool it quickly. The best way to do that is to spread it on a baking sheet (to maximize surface area) and stick it in the fridge or freezer. If you cook it halfway and let it sit there, the rice will continue to cook and you'll get a big sticky mess. This is the reason why in the thread of the chicken noodle soup, I recommended to cook noodles and soup separately and chill before putting it together. It's not the easiest thing to maintain the integrity of the starch when it's in a hot broth/stock. Mon Oct 27 14:39:24 -0700 2008 4132596 10763 Miss Needle 4 4132653 I don't think the pot matters...I've made risotto in a stockpot, a dutch oven, and a skillet. But every recipe I've ever seen says to serve immediately. I would never let it sit for two hours. I really don't think you'll be able to get the dinner-party-worthy results you want by making the dish ahead of time. Have you considered substituting orzo? It's similar, but much more low maintenance. Here's a recipe you could tweak to approximate the risotto milanese: http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2008/01/dinner-tonight-orzo-risotto-recipe.html Mon Oct 27 14:40:58 -0700 2008 4132596 182589 bex109 4 4132816 I personally think that polenta would be just as "gourmet" when served with osso buco. There are several recipers flying around for a no-stir oven-baked polenta that you could use, which would free you up for socializing before dinner. I've made it and it's delicious and creamy (but can't put my finger on the recipe right now). The risotto milanese is wonderful when it's perfect. But horrible when it's not done well. I think the chances of a good outcome under your circumstances would be about 50/50. Try searching "oven baked polenta" on this board and see what comes up. I know it's here somewhere. Edited to add the link: http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/482293 Ha ha and it was even me who asked the question. I forgot that. Mon Oct 27 15:37:47 -0700 2008 4132596 12383 Nyleve 5 4132846 Risotto is like tempura--has to be served the minute it is done, or else it becomes something it is not meant to be. Mon Oct 27 15:51:27 -0700 2008 4132816 13003 whs 5 4133110 I agree. While risotto milanese might have become more traditional as a side, I think of the whole dish as rustic comfort food. I mean, it's just braised shanks when you come right down to it. Mon Oct 27 18:12:06 -0700 2008 4132816 39874 chowser 6 4133302 You guys are definitely making me think twice. Perhaps I will give the oven baked polenta a try before the dinner and compare the 2. this is also something i have never made and rarely eaten, so it will be good that way :) Mon Oct 27 19:46:32 -0700 2008 4133110 105701 cleopatra999 7 4133903 Let us know how things turn out. Tue Oct 28 06:54:15 -0700 2008 4133302 12383 Nyleve 8 4133908 I am not going to make another osso bucco as a trial dish with the polenta. What is something that I can do instead that will give me the same sort of feel as the osso bucco so I can decide if this is the route that I would like to go? I am assuming some other kind of braised meat. Tue Oct 28 06:56:45 -0700 2008 4133903 105701 cleopatra999 9 4135124 You could do some kind of mushroom ragout with a mixture of wild and tame mushrooms or maybe something like braised short ribs. Even a good bolognese would go well with polenta. Tue Oct 28 16:40:19 -0700 2008 4133908 12383 Nyleve 10 4135446 actually I have some short ribs in the freezer, that might be a great idea for a weekend dinner. thanks! Tue Oct 28 19:27:44 -0700 2008 4135124 105701 cleopatra999 11 4137459 Daniel Boulud has a delicious and easy short ribs recipe that involves cooking down a large quantity of red wine--great with mashed celeriac and potatoes. I'm sure you can google the recipe. Wed Oct 29 16:59:44 -0700 2008 4135446 13003 whs 8 4142066 Tried out oven baked polenta tonight. I braised short ribs (which turned out great) and served it over top of the polenta. I enjoyed the polenta, but I have to admit I like the creaminess of the risotto better. I may still do this though, it was WAY easier. I used 2% milk at the end and just a little parm reg. I think if I go ahead with it I may use more cheese and cream instead of milk, this will add the extra specialness it needed. i think that I also needed to add a bit of salt to it. are grits the same as polenta? I had the most amazing grits (albeit the first I have ever had) at Mesa Grill in Vegas. They were creamy and delicious. If I could make that I would be content! Maybe I can find his recipe somewhere :) Fri Oct 31 21:17:44 -0700 2008 4133903 105701 cleopatra999 9 4142099 You can make creamy, quick-cooking polenta for a crowd in less than 10 minutes by using corn meal (rather than the more coarsely ground polenta), hot liquid (milk, cream, stock, water or combo thereof), salt, a glob of butter, and some cheese -- ground Parmesan, mascarpone, ricotta, something. This quick -cooking polenta is wonderful with osso buco, lamb shanks, or any braised meat dish. I agree that until you're familiar with risotto, attempting it for a dinner party is not advised. What others have said is accurate -- risotto cannot be stopped and started, or held -- it's like fried foods in that regard. Risotto is more a method of cooking that requires your presence: a fast simmer (yes, your heat was too high) and repetitive, rhythmic stirring. It is served immediately. Stopping and starting can work, though the final results suffer: the milky gravy created by the special risotto rice is reabsorbed by the rice, and the rice loses its toothsomeness and resistance. Fri Oct 31 22:00:26 -0700 2008 4142066 18222 maria lorraine 9 4142394 Polenta is easier to make ahead than risotto. The following recipe looks good and calls for reheating but I've had success w/ it coverd over a double boiler, adding hot liquid or butter or cream before serving. I like Maria Lorraine's suggestion of mascarpone or fresh ricotta, too. It would probably make it nice and creamy. http://www.foodandwine.com/recipes/sage-polenta Sat Nov 01 07:19:44 -0700 2008 4142066 39874 chowser 4 4134256 i have to say that most foods we eat are based on "peasant" cooking or the food of lower class people. polenta/grits, rice, etc. - these are all just basic grain carbs that provide sustenance for people. Tue Oct 28 09:06:48 -0700 2008 4132596 181629 misa 1 4135472 Go ahead and give it a try. jfood loves risotto and if friends served it to him he would have great respect as they cared about good food. If jfood was preparing risotto ahead he would probably take off the heat at about 13 minutes into the process. As he cleared the previous course he would attack and finish for the last 5'ish minutes. He would turn the heat under the broth and risotto (med-high for the former and very low simmer for the latter) when he served the previous course and then take up the position when the dishes were being cleared. Tue Oct 28 19:45:05 -0700 2008 4131448 11290 jfood 2 4135879 The reason it's recommended that you spread the partially cooked rice on cookie sheets and refrigerate is to stop the cooking process. The problem w/ leaving the hot partially cooked risotto in a hot pan is that it'll continue to cook. That's when you get the sticky gloppy mess. Wed Oct 29 05:02:48 -0700 2008 4135472 39874 chowser 1 4136672 Holding risotto is a flawed idea. I've hot wired the dish by undercooking and finishing, but it really does not compare to the true form. If it's a kitchen party, it could be the focus of the event. Risotto cakes are a more practical idea. Brown side one (the presentation side) flip and finish in the oven, hands off for about 10 minutes depending on temp. Super easy. On the reheat technique: Always have "too much" stock on hand. Rice will continue to absorb. Starch will thicken as it cools. Cooked risotto will loosen slightly when heated, so what seems to thick when room temp or cool may become more viscous when warmed. I don't know if Hazan stresses the fundamentals.. Probably yes. It's imperative that the wooden spoon for stirring the rice rest on the pan bottom, without a lot of in and out. You're releasing the starch by causing friction not by breaking the kernels or pulverizing. Wed Oct 29 11:28:10 -0700 2008 4131448 159761 keg 1 4137279 There is an old saying, not sure where it comes from but it captures the sentiments of a lot of posters here: "Everyone waits for risotto, but risotto waits for no one." People with lots of experience making risotto can sometimes get away with make-ahead tricks, but most will also tell you it won't be as good. And if you've only made risotto a few times or less, you may not have the instincts needed to made corrections on the fly. (Risotto is one of those things better done by feel than a strict recipe for time, temperature, and amount of stock.) If you insist on rice but don't want to make risotto on the spot, the fried risotto cake is probably the best idea. Spin it as a gourmet take on "plain old" risotto - after all, it does take more work, individual portions are arguably more refined, and a little browning will add some texture. Wed Oct 29 15:26:35 -0700 2008 4131448 41818 Grubbjunkie 1 4142543 here's a tip that might help with "holding" the risotto. I admit have never used this method but did remember coming across it in an Italian cookbook titled "The Cooking of Parma" by Richard Camillo Sidoli The author cautions that risotto should ideally never be held over but if necessary you can employ the following method: Saute your aromatics and/or vegetables as normal, deglaze with wine, once wine is absorbed add 1/2 of your liquid. Cover pot at a slow simmer for 7-8 minutes stirring once or twice. Once liquid is absorbed, remove pot from heat. When ready to finish the cooking process, add 1/2 of the remaining stock, stirring occasionally. Finish with last half of stock, stirring occasionally. At this point the rice should be al dente and ready to eat. If not, add additional liquid until absorbed. Author does not mention how long the rice can rest Sat Nov 01 09:24:25 -0700 2008 4131448 203338 chicaraleigh 1 4147075 I always make enough risotto so that there's enough leftover for lunch the next day. I refrigerate it, then reheat in the microwave. It always come out very well. Mon Nov 03 14:06:14 -0800 2008 4131448 11995 pikawicca 2 4147126 I love leftover risotto, too, but it's really risotto then...it's just a really good rice dish. Risotto must have that milky gravy -- that's the reason for the arborio or carnaroli rice -- and when risotto is stopped and started or reheated the next day, the milky gravy goes away. It's a textural thing -- risotto is gloopy. Not liquid-y, gloopy. The liquid-y texture is part of its definition. Mon Nov 03 14:23:48 -0800 2008 4147075 18222 maria lorraine 3 4147242 I can't successfully reheat risotto. Hence, arancini are always for lunch the next day.:-) Mon Nov 03 15:07:22 -0800 2008 4147126 39874 chowser 3 4147562 Maria here...the non-proofreader...this would be what the fingers should have typed: <<but it's NOT really risotto then...it's just a really good rice dish.> Mon Nov 03 17:12:23 -0800 2008 4147126 18222 maria lorraine 1 4148198 I'm not sure how traditional it would be, but I'll bet there's an Italian version of a "hands-off" rice dish, like paella or jambalaya. A creamy risotto is lovely, but I'm also crazy about the crusty bottom of a well-made paella. Tue Nov 04 01:25:12 -0800 2008 4131448 17348 Vladimir Estragon 2 4153585 That is why I prefer cakes from leftover risotto...you can create the soccarat on the cakes. Thu Nov 06 10:11:21 -0800 2008 4148198 12274 OldTimer 2 4153677 There are a whole range of Spanish rice dishes using short grain rice. The ideal with paella is to cook it in a thin layer and develop the crust. But others are kept moist (melloso) or even soupy (caldoso). The Spanish seem to be less concerned with developing the natural creaminess of the rice (as in risotto) and more concerned with the rice absorbing great flavor from the cooking liquid. That is why they often favor the short grain rice. Long grain rice is also used, but more for dishes like moros y cristianos (Cuban style rice and blackbeans). You could certainly cook rice in one of these Spanish styles but using Italian flavorings. Thu Nov 06 10:47:59 -0800 2008 4148198 12139 paulj 3 4154212 thanks everyone for your help. I think I am set on polenta... how does this recipe sound? http://www.recipezaar.com/7-Minute-Rich-and-Creamy-Polenta-54029 Thu Nov 06 13:44:35 -0800 2008 4153677 105701 cleopatra999 1 4160977 Another approach to making risotto if time is tight, is to use a pressure cooker. Basically the rice is cooked with all the flavorings for 7 minutes, followed by a quite pressure release. Then the last minute additions like cheese are added and the rice is stirred to develop the creaminess. I'm sure purists will object to this method, but it does work surprisingly well. It appears in several online pressure cooker sources, as well as books (e.g. ones by Lorna Sass). Sun Nov 09 21:35:05 -0800 2008 4131448 12139 paulj 2 4161089 Have a recipe of your owm? I'd love to try it. Mon Nov 10 00:55:39 -0800 2008 4160977 18222 maria lorraine 3 4161949 Here's Miss Vickie's risotto page http://missvickie.com/howto/grains/howtorisotto.html Mon Nov 10 10:16:55 -0800 2008 4161089 12139 paulj 3 4179272 I saw a recipe in La Cucina Italiana (a magazine) that it claimed was in no way inferior to the traditional method, and after trying it out, I'm inclined to agree, but with the caveat that it's a lot less flexible and in the end wasn't that much faster. It cuts 10 minutes out of the core of the recipe, but adds two back in at the end, so it's only a small win. Here's my paraphrase from memory: Cook the soffritto in the pressure cooker base over high heat, add your rice and quickly fry it. Add a half glass of white wine, let it absorb while stirring, then add your other flavorings and boiling broth, in a proportion of two and a half parts broth or water to one part rice. Cook under pressure for 7 minutes. Quickly release the pressure, stir the rice well, then stir in your butter and cheese. The consistency comes out perfectly, but can require the addition of another ladle of broth after it comes out from being under pressure. In general, if you get the proportions just right at the start, it produces the real stuff. It seems that most of the creaminess comes from the starch that was broken down when cooked under pressure being stirred at the end. If you stir for a good minute or two, you get better results. I have to say, I was pretty shocked that it worked so well. Mon Nov 17 03:27:52 -0800 2008 4161089 177724 tmso 4 4179729 In the end I did the risotto, but not ahead of time. I spent the time in between courses making it, which was fine, we needed a break to get up from the table, and from eating. I kept the heat lower, which was definitely key. it looked like it was going well until the very end, that seems to be my weak point. It was still goopy and sticky, not creamy. I think it was also a little under cooked this time too. I have to admit, so far, not my favorite thing to make, I can see how it takes a lot of practice. We will see if I try it again sometime. I do regret having done it for this meal, I should have stuck with the polenta, both for ease and taste. Oh well! thanks all for the help! Mon Nov 17 07:51:37 -0800 2008 4179272 105701 cleopatra999 5 4179879 Diagnosing risotto problems is really almost impossible without watching someone cook; my guess is you aren't stirring enough, but only because you can certainly under-stir risotto but not over-stir it. FWIW, I cook over med-high heat and mine comes out velvety. It's really a matter of having a good feel for how it should be developing, and being able to make micro-adjustments along the way. Which means: practice. But given the recent success I had with the pressure cooker, you might try that. I can make risotto in my sleep, so I was most interested in the potential time/effort savings. But there was almost no technique involved (the pressure cooker did all the hard work), so you might try that the next time. Just remember to stir the hell out of it for a minute or two after it's no longer under pressure. Mon Nov 17 08:41:48 -0800 2008 4179729 177724 tmso