567541 Sun Oct 26 10:37:33 -0700 2008 55 29 Not About Food 0 4129886 Ok, I realize this is likely to spur some anti-veg backlash, but having just returned from a week long, food included conference, am for the umpteenth time wondering why so many professional cooks just don’t seem to “get” what vegetarian means. I’m talking in relation to the food guide, not simply “meatless”. I’m one of those “meat free” people who doesn’t typically make a fuss, am more than happy to eat a slice of bread for a meal at someone’s home, and enjoy many meals in restaurants that are meat free, but not necessarily balanced. This is ok for occasionals, and I can make up for it. I’ll even very occasionally eat fish, and I am , by no means, a picky eater. I realize it's a pain in the butt to a lot of people, and I regularly apologize for it. Really, i'm not trying to be difficult !! I understand that it is difficult to feed a couple of hundred people and keep everyone happy. I also understand that the resulting food is quite often, not great. But this is a location where people go on conferences and training for weeks on end. Is it too much to ask for some protein? The kitchen was advised well ahead of time that there would be vegetarians in the group (I was one of a few). While the carnivores in the group enjoyed a wide selection of dishes and various proteins in the buffet line, there were no vegetarian mains, only once a meat-free pasta option, and only once fish which I didn’t eat (it looked repulsive, but I was at least happy to see it there, for some variety). Twice during the week, there were asian dishes, typically dishes that can quite easily be and often are by their own right, vegetarian. Once, there were burgers, but no veggie burger substitute. That one, I thought, seemed rather obvious to me, wouldn’t have even required an entire stand-alone dish. I was quite excited to see a tofu hot and sour soup…..which was swimming in beef. I spent the week living off of rice, potatoes, cheese (which many veg’s won’t eat), salads/veg sides and the ever present chick pea in the salad bar. I ate eggs every morning for breakfast just to make sure I had at least some protein (you have to eat a lot of beans, eggs and cheese to get the daily requirement so easily gotten from eg. Tofu). I love chickpeas, but not for two meals a day, every day. This might also be ok, if you’re in the “eat to live” category, which I’m not. I could regale you with other such occasions, and the interpretations of “vegetarian” which ended up on my plate (one example was the canned baked beans over pasta meal….WTH) Needless to say, I felt ill and bloated by the end of the week, tired of eating the same thing day in day out, and couldn’t wait to get back to my own cooking. I wasn’t the only one. And no we did not have the option to go elsewhere. I understand that not every person understands or wants to know how to feed a vegetarian, but shouldn’t a food service professional know how to do this, and provide balanced meals? And God forbid, with some variety? Sun Oct 26 10:37:33 -0700 2008 153184 im_nomad 1 4129926 every year I go on a week long catered trip, at a boy scout camp of all places. We are most definitely NOT there for the food (the camp is located on Santa Catalina Island adjacent to world-class scuba diving). However, even though the food is nothing to write home about, every single meal's main course has a vegetarian alternative, (ie veggie burgers if the main dish is burgers, vegie sauced pasta, vegie chili on chili night, etc. Most of those vegie main courses are also vegan. Why? because the various groups who attend the camp when the boy scouts aren't there (typically, we will be one of several groups in camp) and who purchase the catering, insist on it and put it in the contract. The caterer deserves some of the blame, but I am sure they 'get it', they just don't have sufficient motive to do something about it. I'd join forces with the other vegetarians and ask your employer to intervene. If your job is secure, I'd even consider submitting a claim for meals eaten elsewhere since they couldn't accomodate you. (too late for this time, but to be considered for the next time). Advising the caterer isn't enough. When I have done event planning for my work, I have put it in the agreements that XXX number of vegie options will be available. Sun Oct 26 11:12:53 -0700 2008 4129886 10158 susancinsf 1 4129962 Don't take this as anti veg - and also don't take it as an excuse for poor planning on the caterer's part. There are so many varieties (or degrees) of vegetarian (at least it appears that way to a full on carnivore like me) that if it is left strictly to the food professional to come up with acceptable vegetarian alternatives, they may fail completely in satisfying the non meat crowd. The caterer "SHOULD" know that at a minimum vegetarian attendees means to provide main as well as side alternatives. In situations like this it is important for the person or group hosting the conference to get input from the vegetarian(s) on what is acceptable fare. They need to relay this to the food service provider - not just a general "there will be some vegetarians". The food service provider should also ask for detailed input from the host in the case of general statements - Questions like "Vegetarian or Vegan?", "Strict or loose adherence?", "Is seafood acceptable or not?" and VERY important "How many vegetarians will be attending?" Without some fairly detailed input, the non meat eaters may be in for a crapshoot. Sun Oct 26 11:40:18 -0700 2008 4129886 93805 hannaone 2 4130476 Hannaone, You took the words out of my omnivore mouth. What is the line about being a "level nine vegan - one who doesn't eat anything that casts a shadow? Given my dietary habits, I should be less concerned about level of vegetarianism and the foods offered, except that we host a lot of major functions. My assistant, and my wife's always get full disclosure on our guests' requirements beforehand. Each restaurant is given full instructions. To date, none has let us down. Heck, wife has some food allergies and we do a lot of "chef's tastings." With notice, all have come through. Now, we've hosted tables at charity events, where the folk did not respond to the question. Imagine the kitchen staff, when serving 1200 to try and create something just for this one person. Also, most events like this are on a tight cost budget, so they cannot be expected to have X different levels of vegetarian plates, in case someone wants them. I used to see similar, back when there were meals served on airplanes. People would demand a Kosher, or Veg plate, when we were in the air. Back when I first began flying, I learned that one could specify their food, from within several choices, before hand. Imagine the stewardesses (that's what they were called back then) trying to scramble around and "create" a special meal, when all they had to work from were other regular meals. Now, if a caterer does not listen to the needs of the guests, or the host/hostess is not sensitive to them, there is no excuse. Gotta' get with the game plan. Hunt Sun Oct 26 17:05:42 -0700 2008 4129962 11329 Bill Hunt 3 4130988 Yes, the one making arrangements should make sure that their needs are met. I agree; put it in the contract. If yours is not the only group being served that day, ask about typical menus. If they don't meet your needs, go elsewhere. Let the catereres KNOW EXACTLY what you expect, and vote with your feet if they don't provide it. (For example, it amazes me that so many people consider "vegetarian" to include fish. I would NEVER make that assumption, but I can only assume that a caterer might since so many of you do...). OTOH, the caterer should know their audience. I was once on a flight from Dubai to Mumbai. Just about every person on board was Hindu (Indian workers returning from the oilfields to their homes during a holiday period). British Air loaded several hundred meals, and all but two were beef (DH and I had pre-ordered the two vegetarian meals...we ended up giving them away). OK, maybe folks should have pre-ordered, but these were people who rarely fly, and BA should have known better..... Sun Oct 26 22:23:01 -0700 2008 4130476 10290 janetofreno 4 4132948 Janetofreno, You make a good point about fliers, who have not done this most of their lives. It has also become easier, with on-line booking, to request a special meal, IF one is being served. Years ago, before the Internet, we'd get the "Seafood" dinners on our flights to HON, if we were not upgrading to, or buying FC. These were the better on UAL. Then, they went to imitation "seafood," and we quickly stopped that practice. For general group dining, I think that the onus is first of a host/hostess, and then on the diners. Too many complain that they did not get such-n-such and since they only eat_____, the hostess is responsible, or the restaurant. When pressed, they too often admit that they did not tell anybody, but: 1.) any good host/hostess should know all guests' dietary desires 2.) all restaurants should be able to accommodate anybody's special request, at a moment's notice. Heck, there are enough people, who RSVP'ed for the salmon, and then changed their mind to the chicken, just before the mains are served. I will have to say that my wife is much better at knowing the food dislikes of our guests, but then her assistant is better than mine - wait, you didn't see ME type that... Hunt Mon Oct 27 16:54:29 -0700 2008 4130988 11329 Bill Hunt 1 4129988 While the folks who run the conference center could certainly prod the people who planned the conference to select balanced vegetarian items, ultimately the people who are putting the conference on are making final selections about the food. It may very well be that the food service professionals said to themselves "screw it, they'll find something" but it may also be that the people planning the conference didn't think it important enough to either pay a bit extra to have more complete entree choices available or more likely said to themselves "screw it, they'll find something." You're right, cooking for vegetarians in a healthy way requires some planning and thought and foresight. It also generally costs more than just cooking for omnivores. That is, cooking two kinds of things costs more than cooking one kind of thing, not that food vegetarians eat is necessary any more expensive than what omnivores eat. In my experience both handling the food service side of the catering/banquet stuff and also handling the conference planning side almost everyone says "screw it, they'll find something." Most of the time, conference planners focus on the animal protein (should we have chicken and beef or chicken and pork) and figure if there's salad and/or pasta without any actual meat on it that vegetarians will be fine. Sun Oct 26 11:51:01 -0700 2008 4129886 80141 ccbweb 2 4130173 I agree with much of what you should say but would like to note that I have planned or overseen the planning of many, many meetings and conferences, have always asked that the contract include veggie alternatives, and have never been charged more or have been told that it would cost more to include a certain number of vegetarian mains. I am not convinced it really does cost more, or that cost was a major factor in this instance: sure, you have to make more types of things, but particularly if you are talking about a venue that already does that (OP mentioned a buffett) the vegetarian options aren't going to cost more than the meat alternatives, and the vendor can make less of the meat alternatives. Sun Oct 26 14:00:42 -0700 2008 4129988 10158 susancinsf 3 4130702 Excellent points and I agree. Sun Oct 26 19:13:16 -0700 2008 4130173 80141 ccbweb 1 4129999 Interesting topic. While I'm omnivorous, there are times when I just don't want meat, and that means having side dishes for a meal. It's unfortunate, however, that most people, when they think of a meal, center that idea around the animal. So, no-meat eaters are eating around the periphery. Have you EVER seen an ad for a restaurant that doesn't talk about the meat? No. It never, ever happens. But, there are so many fabulous things that can be prepared even vegan, so I do blame the caterer for lack of creativity, especially when they have been told in advance. Sun Oct 26 11:58:33 -0700 2008 4129886 181207 caviar_and_chitlins 1 4130015 I should clarify and indicate that this was not a catered event, nor was it in a hotel. It's an on site kitchen in a large facility expressly for the purpose of training etc. So while i know SOMEONE has to approve the meals eventually, I know this having planned similar events myself, but i'm thinking this type of facility doesn't have the same kind of oversight meals wise, as say in the case of a two or three day event. And I do understand it costs a little more, but that is in part what bugged me about this. The HAD the tofu there, then cooked it in beef. Obviously they had an endless supply of chickpeas, which would have been fine alongside the curries in the form of a chana masala. to answer susan, my employer does not allow me to claim for it. as far as anyone's concerned it seems, as long as i can eat SOMETHING be it a potato, a green salad, or what not, i'm being accomodated. My thoughts during these times are often on those who have religious observances or allergies. Glad to hear this is not the standard everywhere. Sun Oct 26 12:08:40 -0700 2008 4129886 153184 im_nomad 2 4130194 It doesn't matter that it was a dedicated training facility: my answer stands. Someone at your company undoubtably signed an agreement for the provision of meals to your group. My employer quite simply will not pay for food service unless there is a signed agreement in place (and the agreement can specify what is included), regardless of the location or type of event. At my employer, which I don't think is unique in this regard: there are ONLY two ways that meals can be provided: 1.) someone pays for it personally and gets reimbursed, or 2.) a signed contract is in place with a food service provider, caterer, hotel or restaurant. However, I can believe that the employer won't allow you to claim other meals if they have an agreement that meals will be provided (my wouldn't either): and my point in suggesting that, assuming your relationship with your employer is otherwise good, would be to make a point and to let your employer know you weren't happy, not to actually get reimbursed. Obviously, that type of point works better if you area valued and preferably a long term employee, which is why I said it was only something to consider if your job was secure. That said, have you told your employer how you feel about what was provided? Does your employer know you were unhappy and didn't feel good about or as a result of the alternatives? If not, I would definitely let your employer know, preferably in conjunction with as many others as feel the same way as possible. They can do something about it if motivated to do so. Sun Oct 26 14:09:06 -0700 2008 4130015 10158 susancinsf 1 4130042 Sounds like gross mismanagement to me. You have a bunch of people who don't have any choice but to eat the food you're serving, you know that some of them have dietary restrictions, and you just ignore this fact? Not just vegetarians, what about people who keep kosher, observe a halal diet, are Seventh Day Adventists, etc.? Maybe it's just a function of having lived too long in the land of fruits and nuts, but I've come to expect that ANY group meal that's the only option for the participants will provide a vegan alternative. It's part of the obligation of those who are feeding you. Sheesh. Sun Oct 26 12:30:33 -0700 2008 4129886 58743 alanbarnes 1 4130330 Jfood is one of those people who does not understand what a vegetarian can/cannot eat. ANd for good reason. Let's look at the OP. - why so many professional cooks just don’t seem to “get” what vegetarian means. I’m talking in relation to the food guide, not simply “meatless”. - I’m one of those “meat free” people...and enjoy many meals in restaurants that are meat free, but not necessarily balanced. - there were no vegetarian mains, only once a meat-free pasta option, - and only once fish which I didn’t eat - I spent the week living off of rice, potatoes, cheese (which many veg’s won’t eat), salads/veg sides and the ever present chick pea in the salad bar. - I ate eggs every morning for breakfast just to make sure I had at least some protein (you have to eat a lot of beans, eggs and cheese to get the daily requirement so easily gotten from eg. Tofu). I love chickpeas, but not for two meals a day, every day. jfood has no idea what OP's vegetarian requirements comprise. So were there vegetarian options or not? There were pastas with some toppings, there was a fish night, etc. And did the OP ever ask anyone if they might prepare a non-pasta veggie dinner or did they keep quiet. there have been lots of threads about speaking up. And if this was for a religious limited diet would the kosher or halal or any other religious dietary restriction demand a full buffet of choices or would a single choice to meet their needs suffice? So jfood thinks there are so many different interpretations of vegetarian that the OP should have asked if he could speak with the organizer, then see if the chef could meet these dietary requirements. But to expect any large gathering to have a separate buffet for each some group is asking way too much. And if the OP did not like the options, then OP could have spoken up or went elsewhere for the food to meet the needs. Sun Oct 26 15:42:16 -0700 2008 4129886 11290 jfood 2 4130343 The OP made it clear that going elsewhere for food was not an option. Therefore, the dining hall had an obligation to make suitable food available. So the question is what constitutes suitable food. As somebody who's cooked for large groups of people with a range of restrictions regarding what if any forms of animal products they'll eat, I can attest that the answer to that question is a no-brainer. You don't have to tailor the meal to any one person's dietary restrictions, just have a vegan option available. It doesn't matter who eats veal or chicken or fish or shellfish or cheese or honey. Anybody who avoids those things can eat the vegan option. Done and done. Sun Oct 26 15:48:46 -0700 2008 4130330 58743 alanbarnes 2 4130455 I think the standard vegetarian diet does not include meat (including, but not limited to, beef and pork), poultry (including, but not limited to, chicken, turkey and duck) or fish (including, but not limited to, swimming fish and shellfish... ummmm... unless there is no other kind of fish). It does, however, include eggs and dairy. A vegan diet includes all of the dietary restrictions above, as well as no eggs or dairy, as well as no animal "secretions" such as honey (though the last one is a point of contention for some vegans). People who make food choices other than the ones mentioned above, but call themselves vegetarian or vegan, are just looking for a word to justify their preferences. I am one of those people, but I don't expect restaurants/caterers to cater to my whims. Instead, I expect them to have at least one choice on the menu that meets the "standard" definition of vegetarian/veganism, and I'll work around that. Sun Oct 26 16:59:13 -0700 2008 4130330 131149 Jetgirly 3 4131843 I'd agree with this. If someone said "I'm a vegetarian", I'd assume this meant "nothing that required something in the kingdom to die" (e.g. meat of any sort (including fish), grease (ie rendered fat), etc), and would probably assume that if the option was available that they'd prefer more happy-friendly options for dairy/eggs/etc. If they said "I'm a vegan", I'd assume it meant "no animal products of any kind". Anyone who uses one of those two labels and means something else - that's their problem. They can either communicate to me in non-ridiculous terms what they really mean (ie not saying, "I'm a vegetarian, but I also eat chicken and bacon") or to buck up and deal. This doesn't address the OP's point though, as to whether or not the vegetarian side was adequately dealt with. Mon Oct 27 10:07:02 -0700 2008 4130455 111910 jgg13 2 4130462 I'm not sure what was confusing there -- the OP said that there was only one pasta dish with no meat, and though there was a fish night, that's not vegetarian. There was no mention of a desire for a full buffet of choices, so I'm not sure where you got that -- just the desire for a main dish option that was vegetarian, or even some substantial sides that were not salad or carb heavy. It's pretty easy to have two main dishes for a crowd, and for one of them to be vegetarian, and I think that's a very reasonable request. Sun Oct 26 17:01:08 -0700 2008 4130330 13525 JasmineG 2 4135353 jfood, with all due respect, i was looking for primarily protein, and at least some semblance of variety that the other participants had on their plates. Pasta with toppings gives me nothing but a serving of carbs ( and crappy sauce, but that's another story). I'm talking the food guide here. each meal, there was a buffet of choices with several meats prepared in various and new ways....the vegetarians had...........plain canned chick peas. Every...day..and these were in the salad bar that everyone had access to, and were highly scarce there might i add.. often they topped some rice salad or something...... As for whether I, and the other veg's spoke up, yes, we sure did. I spoke up very specifically about my needs before attending, as well as throughout the conference...others were even more vocal than i. Got alot of blank stares and we just got the impression that they didn't "get it". ...as I said. I couldn't go elsewhere, unless you count the vending machines scattered around the place. Yes, there are various interpretations of vegetarian, but i'm talking in the strictest sense of the word here.....not even getting into the whole ovo-lacto or vegan thing. Providing some form of plant based protein, and maybe changing it up a little, would meet many people's needs. Let me stress that at no time was I ever expecting a "full buffet of choices". Again asking for protein, and for maybe that protein source to change from day to day. After all, if you were at my house to visit, and i fed you chicken for lunch and supper, plain and served the same way day in day out......for three weeks or more, wouldn't you get sick of it? Tue Oct 28 18:51:32 -0700 2008 4130330 153184 im_nomad 3 4135407 jfood re-read the post more carefully as other responses to his post and stands corrected. He had a hard time following the first time and after carefully reading he sees that "regular" vegetarian choices were non-existent. That's a very bad oversight on the part of the organizer. Did you think about pizza delivery? If jfood was subjected to chick peas for even a couple of days, even Dominos may have reached the radar screen. So jfood apologizes for his initial comments and hopes that at least the off-site or conference was successful from a non-eating perspective. Tue Oct 28 19:08:39 -0700 2008 4135353 11290 jfood 4 4135535 not a problem, i had an inkling you weren't malicious :) I loooooovveee pizza, and yes i did consider. I love me any bread-cheese combo. I was surprised though to find that after several days of buffet cheese and various carbs, I was a little tired of this. No worries, I am since reformed. besides, by the time i thought of it, I was in my PJ's . But to my original point, at least pizza seems like somewhat of a crowd pleaser, and this suggestion could have shown itself at lunch. besides, if i want to get sticky on the food guide issue, it really does take a lot of cheese to get a daily requirement for protein, and therefore while filling the void in the belly, pizza wouldn't really fit the bill in that regard. I am pleased to say I had a wonderful asian feast on the train during my return trip. Tue Oct 28 20:14:00 -0700 2008 4135407 153184 im_nomad 5 4135548 you should have brought some good chocolate chip cookies to the dark side convention. Tue Oct 28 20:18:51 -0700 2008 4135535 11290 jfood 1 4131003 The main thing I wonder is why vegetarians don't get vegetarian. I am always amazed to meet vegetarians who rarely eat legumes, eggs, nuts & substantial amounts of dairy. Maybe they will eat some Tofu or eat Boca Burgers like a staple etc., but I know veggies who can't possibly be getting enough Amino Acids... then of course these are also the "vegetarians" that succumb to an obsessive steak or prime rib bing every six months or so. If many vegetarians don't understand how to eat naturally without meats & uber processed soy products... how can we expect food professionals to do so? Sun Oct 26 22:45:33 -0700 2008 4129886 42572 Eat_Nopal 2 4131846 There's always the guy I knew several years ago who was vegan but mainly lived off of "bbq potato chip sandwiches". yes, they were exactly what they sound like. Mon Oct 27 10:07:52 -0700 2008 4131003 111910 jgg13 2 4135305 because the average person has not been trained to provide food service.....and food service professionals are not only trained, but paid to do so. i'm certain i've seen tofu on the Canada food guide. I can only speak for myself....as a new veg, I did rely on simply meat-free, and needless to say also ate a lot of peanut butter....fine and dandy, but my diet was seriously lacking in protein, so i've educated myself, I now know, without pulling out a reference, what a standard food item will yeild for me in protein, and whether i need to eat it at each meal or am able to blow it all on say a slab of tofu. I also do eat legumes, grains, eggs, nuts, dairy, you name it, i eat it. Tue Oct 28 18:29:57 -0700 2008 4131003 153184 im_nomad 1 4131188 As a meeting planner, I agree with the other poster that said it's the conference organizers who decided what to serve, not the catering company. I also agree that it does cost more to offer a vegetarian option. For example, almost NONE of the properties I've planned meetings at have access to vegetarian breakfast sausage, they only have turkey sausage as an "alternative" and they have to find a purveyor and order it special for my meetings, as we have enough vegetarians I find this an important thing to have on the breakfast buffet. So it's an additional/special cost. Also when we do a big dinner, whether it's stations or buffet, many options do not including an actual veg. entree. So you might choose dinner buffet #2 which includes 2 meats, 2 sides and a veg but then you have to add on and order a separate vegetarian entree in limited quantity in addition to the buffet. It's always more expensive. I always order it, and our vegetarians are always appreciative, but I can tell you if I was told to really cut back on my food spending, these "extras" to accommodate vegetarians would be one of the first places I could cut and save money. In general, it's just not the overwhelming norm and if I were a vegetarian going to a conference, i'd try to bring or procure a lot of my own food elsewhere. As someone who is generally a pretty healthy eater who doesn't eat processed food, when I go to a conference there's almost nothing for me to eat at breakfast as it's usually "continental" which means pastries, which I don't eat, corn syrup-filled yogurt which I don't eat, and maybe some fresh whole fruit. A couple of pieces of fruit is not enough for me so I bring my own bars, Kashi or gnu or something. I come prepared because I know my dietary preferences are not the "norm." I would think it would be logical to do the same if you were a vegetarian, instead of continuing to be upset that the norm isn't conforming to my desires. Mon Oct 27 05:34:58 -0700 2008 4129886 19518 rockandroller1 2 4131224 But I don't see why, instead of having two meats and two sides, you couldn't have one meat, one vegetarian choice and the two sides. I'm the only vegetarian in my close circle of friends, but most people I know would happily take a meatless option over a meaty option if it looked yummy! I think it's a weird attitude that the meat eaters MUST have a variety of meaty dishes to choose from and the vegetarians are an afterthought, when you could easily have an option with meat and an option without, and people could have choice in that way. I guarantee you wouldn't only see the vegetarians choosing the meatless dish. Mon Oct 27 05:57:25 -0700 2008 4131188 131149 Jetgirly 3 4131242 Because I don't create the standard menus, the catering company does. You choose from what they have available, and the standard buffets include 2 meats because that's what the majority wants. I don't know why this is hard to understand. If it only had one meat and a vegetarian entree, then I'd have to order a 2nd meat entree. Mon Oct 27 06:06:38 -0700 2008 4131224 19518 rockandroller1 4 4131395 Sorry, but your answer still doesn't make sense. These contracts are signed way in advance. Sysco and other such standard ordering sources DO carry veggie sausage (just to give an example, and I verified this on their website: they call it 'meatless breakfast sausage'): so the catering company COULD vary their offered menu and if necessary order different numbers for that particular week if they knew the menu required. IMO, you are being handed a line if the catering company tells you they have no access to the products. and yes, they could order less meat and more of the veggie product if they chose. I'd suggest that you try being a little more assertive as a meeting planner. Tell them if they can't order the veggie sausage (or whatever), you will start looking at catering companies that will. Of course, this will require your employer to back you up, which in turn requires those who want those type of meals to start speaking up rather than just 'toughing it out' or bringing their own. As has been pointed out and implied in other posts, one of the big advantages in providing vegetarian options is that they also provide accomodation for many of those with religious issues (for example, someone who follows halal can still eat veggie meals). It is in the employer's interest to make these accomodations to get and keep the best employees, (and even in tough times you want the best workers for your limited money, that type of accomodation might help alleviate the pain of not being able to give the type of raises the employer would want to give, by making the employee feel valued). Mon Oct 27 07:27:10 -0700 2008 4131242 10158 susancinsf 5 4131416 As I mentioned earlier, I *do* insist they buy vegetarian sausage. I can tell you that nearly every property I have ordered this from has had to either look for a separate source or order it specially for our meeting because they don't normally stock it. One hotel actually had to enlist a completely different purveyor for it, but most just have to special order it because they don't stock it. I'm plenty assertive. My meeting attendees are a set group here at my job and everyone's dietary restrictions are recorded when they register. If we suddenly had some Kosher or halal type restrictions, i would accommodate those people singly, but I maintain my original position whether you agree with it or not. The majority of the group is not vegetarian, the majority of most groups are not vegetarian so catering companies and meeting planners don't necessarily go out of their way to accommodate them. In my case, I do have to spend more to accommodate the veg's AND please the larger majority of meat eaters. I don't think there are any studies indicating that the "best employees" are either meat eaters or vegetarians. However as a meeting planner I can tell you the biggest pains in the arse are the vegetarians, who seem to find a reason to complain about the food no matter what you offer. Mon Oct 27 07:34:12 -0700 2008 4131395 19518 rockandroller1 6 4131462 the best employees are a diverse workforce who feel valued; I never said that vegetarians (or whoever) are better employees, and that wasn't at all my point. My point was about providing for a diverse workforce rather than just making the majority happy. Sorry, but we will have to disagree: I still don't buy it. If Sysco has veggie sausage, it can't be hard for a caterer to find. Given how pervasive Sysco is, it is hard for me to believe that a large hotel isn't ordering something from them or a similar supplier: it is a matter of changing the order that is given to an existing supplier. Yes, the caterer has to change their order, but that is only a question of adding more of one item that week and less of another item. I still think that the caterer is giving you a line if they tell you this is difficult to do. Next time they tell you it is more expensive, just tell them you want variety and it is fine to offer less of the meat whatever and more of the veggie whatever. It might also be worthwhile to do an anonymous survey of the employees you serve as to what their preferences actually are: it sounds from the replies as if there are a number of employees who are afraid to speak up or who don't want to 'make a fuss'. My bottom line: given the number of potential employees in a diverse workforce with health, religious, political or personal reasons for eating less meat, I think it just makes sense to provide for both the meat eaters and the non meat eaters, rather than just assuming that majority needs to rule. Mon Oct 27 07:51:51 -0700 2008 4131416 10158 susancinsf 7 4131482 Agree to disagree - there's something we can agree on. I might point out for the 3rd time that you are preaching to the choir, I am actually one of the people who DO provide for vegetarians in my programs. Many others do not. Mon Oct 27 07:58:51 -0700 2008 4131462 19518 rockandroller1 4 4131487 But why does the standard have to be 2 meat dishes? Why can't it be one meat and one vegetarian. And i think saying that is what the majority wants is misleading - I don't think the majority ever question it, they just eat whatever is put in front of them. I frequently both attend and host conferences, and I see a difference in catering in location. American venues are heavier on meat whereas Canadian and European ones are more veg friendly. I think it is often laziness on the caterers part, as it requires a bit more creativity and thought to make a vegetarian item that will appeal to a large audience, whereas you can just drop a huge roast in front of them and they will flock to it. Mon Oct 27 08:03:44 -0700 2008 4131242 144892 Dan G 5 4131500 I agree about not understanding why the second entree choice can't be a meatless one. My mom and i both eat meat, but often choose to have a meatless entree just because we don't love meat. I know other people who also aren't vegetarians but often choose to eat entrees that have no meat in them. I am sure that if they provided one entree with meat and one meatless entree, there would be many people who would choose to eat the entree without meat. Mon Oct 27 08:07:54 -0700 2008 4131487 157030 iluvtennis 6 4131803 Yeah, I was just at a similar training to the OP, and while the vegetarians were given special meal items (they had to identify themselves as vegetarian to the kitchen, and then were given their food on a plate), I wished that there was always a vegetarian option at dinner, because sometimes I just don't want meat, or sometimes the meat option just wasn't that good. Mon Oct 27 09:54:28 -0700 2008 4131500 13525 JasmineG 7 4131988 I'm going to stick this comment in here because it follows on the general idea here, but I do not intend to imply that you, JasmineG, do this, simply that it happens. Something I've noticed is that some folks will make known a dietary preference or restriction as a way to get what they think will be better food or have a better chance of being good than whatever else might be made. In this kind of case some may request a vegetarian option thinking that the vegetables are more likely to be fresh, or whatever, in the hopes of getting something that appeals to them. When they actually get to the meal, though, they find that something else looks good and they eat that since they weren't actually vegetarians to begin with. Then you have lots of leftover vegetarian entrees and the next time through the planners and caterers scale back. Alternatively, you have those who will opt for the vegetarian entree option when they didn't request one and when there aren't enough for those who didn't ask ahead of time. Then you get vegetarians or those who asked ahead of time in a bad spot. (These are all in the same boat as those who request the chicken or the beef and decide the other looks better when the meal hits...unless there's a lot of flexibility in what the kitchen can do on the fly, too bad.) Bad food is bad food regardless of the protein source (if any). My last thought is that even just in this thread, its hard to come up with a truly accurate, consistent definition of what constitutes "vegetarian." Some who self-identify as vegetarian eat fish, some don't. Some eat poultry and some don't. Most eat eggs and milk/cheese/butter but many don't. Vegan is a bit easier because with the exception of honey, there isn't lots and lots of debate: no animal products. Something that planners of such events and caterers/banquet folks should make sure of is that there is a narrow definition of what is and isn't allowed in the food. Mon Oct 27 10:54:42 -0700 2008 4131803 80141 ccbweb 8 4132357 Hah, I actually WILL sometimes request a vegetarian meal at events like this, because it often is more likely to be good. The difference is that I will eat the vegetarian meal, often to longing glances from co-workers sawing through their dry chicken breast. Mon Oct 27 13:03:12 -0700 2008 4131988 13525 JasmineG 6 4132168 I find when I go on planes that include meals, I will almost always choose the vegetarian option over the meat ones. Even in other meal situations, I might choose the vegetarian option because I am unimpressed by the meat options. There are plenty of meat eaters that sometimes prefer to eat vegetarian options, so I don't think it hurts to provide them, especially in a buffet situation where everyone can choose them. Mon Oct 27 12:02:05 -0700 2008 4131500 107671 queencru 5 4131536 I'm sure it depends on the group, but my large group is heavy meat eaters and very traditional meat and potatoes types. I would get into a lot of trouble if there was only one meat option made available. I mean, these people complain if there are less than 4 dessert choices. They complained when I tried to save money by not paying for expensive appetizers during a whole 25 minute cocktail hour before dinner. I must have had 20 people coming up to me going, "WHERE ARE THE APPETIZERS?!" I have really had to push and push and push to get catering companies to offer me anything creative besides pasta with marinara as the veg. entree. I make all kinds of suggestions but they are routinely discarded. I understand some of you think it should be different, I'm just saying this isn't the way it is in reality. Many people probably aren't pushy and nasty enough to insist on vegetarian entrees that aren't pasta with red as I am, or to insist on vegetarian breakfast sausage. the reason the 2nd entrees are not vegetarian is because those are not in demand. Mon Oct 27 08:21:39 -0700 2008 4131487 19518 rockandroller1 6 4132286 clearly, you don't work for a non-profit or a government entity if employees complain about not having four desserts. I'd say, get the boss to back you up, and next time you hear that complaint tell them that. 'sorry, boss says I have to watch our meal budget or there will be no money for raises this year. Talk to her if that bothers you'. Vegetarian dishes are clearly in demand in some areas and among some groups, and your experience that the workers where you work are meat-centric may not be typical of all employers or all regions of the US. (and I am assuming that the meeting planning you are doing is for an employer, *not* for a social group, in which case clearly there could be a situational bias for or against certain foods depending upon the nature of the social group). Mon Oct 27 12:39:07 -0700 2008 4131536 10158 susancinsf 7 4132328 the reason to try and spend less money on desserts is not really to cut the food budget, of course, it is so you can use more of your catering budget for better quality mains (including some without meat!). :-) Too many desserts make it impossible to get work done (and of course, since I work in the public sector, there is never money for alcohol: people have to buy their own. Which is how it should be, IMO). As the immortal Peg Bracken said as the sub-title to her Chapter on Desserts in the "I Hate to Cook Book": 'People are too fat anyway'. Mon Oct 27 12:54:52 -0700 2008 4132286 10158 susancinsf 7 4132411 ha ha, no definitely not government or non-profit. Unfortunately they go over my boss' head - he does back all my decisions but they complain to the executives of the company and I am told to "fix it next time" when I try to do something like this. Without divulging too much, those I plan the meetings for are all owners of the business and they want it the way they want it, and they don't like change. My job is just to order what they want and spend within what I'm given, not to try to satisfy vegetarians or decide if I can cut 2 desserts to offer a vegetarian main. Everything I order has to be pushed through an approval committee of several of the owners, including down to the wines, which I am not allowed to select myself even though I'm plenty knowledgeable about food and drink. Mon Oct 27 13:16:59 -0700 2008 4132286 19518 rockandroller1 8 4132849 Oh I get it, you must work for a meat company! Just kidding. However... Mind you, I have nothing against dessert or alcohol, but I wonder if it is really in the company's best interests in the long run to be spending the F and B budget that way in the current economy. Moreover, unless your company is indeed in the food industry it is hard to think of a scenario where it is the best use of the owners' time and expertise to be sitting on committees to decide what type of wine is served at company functions. Unless, of course, they have even less expertise in the area of the actual business, and that is the managers' way of having them 'help' where they will do the least harm (in which case you have my sympathies). Mon Oct 27 15:54:08 -0700 2008 4132411 10158 susancinsf 9 4134659 oh honey believe me I completely agree with you that this is NOT a good way for them to spend their time, but it's not up to me. I wish it were all up to me and I could just plan things and be left alone, but many, many of the people here "enjoy" the details of meeting planning and "want to be involved at every level," whether I like it or not. Tue Oct 28 12:02:02 -0700 2008 4132849 19518 rockandroller1 1 4131245 Not a big issue, I am a meatatarian, & for conferences I attend I always plan on the food being bad , so I make other plans, and find someway to eat before, after, or find something I can tolerate if going out is not an option. I just tough it out, and put up with the bad food until the conference is over. Perhaps the vegetarians out there could look at it in a similar way, and then they wouldnt get upset, or feel they are being slighted. Mon Oct 27 06:07:36 -0700 2008 4129886 26725 swsidejim 2 4132475 From a purely non-foodie perspective: You don't get what you want. You don't get what you need. You get what you negotiate for and what you contract for. The organizers of the conference are on the hook for your disappointment, not the food service organization. That is, unless, the organizers DID take into account the diverse dietary needs of the attendees and the food service organization simply breached the contract. Sorry if that sounds a bit heartless. My money bets that the F-S folks did EXACTLY what they were told to do. Mon Oct 27 13:40:14 -0700 2008 4131245 56780 Monch 2 4135380 swide, it's not a matter of feeling upset or slighted.....i too have attended lots of conferences, and three days or whatever, I can make do I guess, and no the food isn't often good. again, to stress, this is a facility where people live and train. It's not a situation of "make do til I get home" if you're there for weeks and weeks. How do you "make do" without any or enough protein? Believe me when i say that i'm not a difficult person to feed. Tue Oct 28 18:58:50 -0700 2008 4131245 153184 im_nomad 3 4135401 As an aside, I spent a few days at Kripalu in the Berkshires. It was 2 days before I realized that everything was vegan. The food was awesome. Vegetarians want (and need) more than pasta primavera! I agree with you im_nomad, I just don't know how to solve the problem. Tue Oct 28 19:07:18 -0700 2008 4135380 181207 caviar_and_chitlins 4 4135980 Kripalu is vegetarian, not vegan. Vegan is available, but they also have milk and egg products. Wed Oct 29 06:19:16 -0700 2008 4135401 139219 Sooeygun 5 4136084 That was rather curt of me...I meant to add, that I know this because a friend who goes to Kripalu regularly raves about the full fat dairy they have. Wed Oct 29 07:25:37 -0700 2008 4135980 139219 Sooeygun 1 4132577 It's funny because in the line of work I'm in, when I go to conferences and things where food's involved, I have the opposite issue where everything is vegetarian. And it seems that that a few of the outings I did last year where food was involved, all the food was vegetarian as well. I guess my industry and my interests have quite a bit of vegetarians. I don't have issues eating vegetables and actually like vegetables, but I hate those mock meats, and can't eat seitan. I actually wish to see a couple of meat/fish dishes there. We should trade professions. Mon Oct 27 14:15:16 -0700 2008 4129886 10763 Miss Needle 1 4132732 Honestly, there are so many different types of non-meat eaters Piscaterians Ovo-lacto vegetarians lacto, but not ovo vegetarians Vegans, in multiple degrees of adherence - after all, that pasta may have been vegetarian enough for you, but it likely has eggs in it Not to mention multiple levels of adherence to halal and kosher (which for instance, in the most strict sense do not allow the same plate or utensil to be used for both dairy and meat, even at different times) Let's not even get into all the possible allergies people could possibly have. In order to prepare every meal permutation that would satisfy every possible dietary restriction AND every palate, food service professionals catering a banquet situation would have to serve more choices than there were people at any given event. These guys are doing mass serving of huge numbers of people at a time. They have a repetoire of just a few dishes that they have learned through experience work satisfactorally for mass serving. Learning a million permutations of piscatarian-ovo/lacto-vegan-kosher-hindu-halal - actually make that two million permutations because they need to have a backup in case you don't find the one thing they make that adheres to your restrictive diet appealing - is an unreasonable expectation. People with restrictive diets, especially those whose diets are restrictive by choice (this includes religious requirements) should take responsibility for their choices and not burden others with them. You made your choice, and this is one of the consequences, one of the sacrifices you agreed to when you selected this lifestyle. Just eat what you can eat and eat around what you can't, and accept that it is not going to be the most culinarily satisfying few days of your life - even us omnivores have to do that last part when confronted by rubber chicken and grisly beef at these banquets, why should you be special? Mon Oct 27 15:11:45 -0700 2008 4129886 232819 Reefmonkey 2 4135437 for the record, I would have been happy with rubber tofu........quality is not really the issue here. i'm not special, and i'm particularly not special in my need for protein, like everyone else, to survive. There are more forms of protein than beef, chicken, pork, fish, which people eat, even when they're not vegetarian. Lots of people don't eat red meat, that doesn't make them a "burden". Please..........you make it sound as if was faced with choices and simply "ewww"ed and "thats icky"ied my way through it.....my diet is far from restrictive, and this so wasn't about "appealing" to me. Tue Oct 28 19:23:30 -0700 2008 4132732 153184 im_nomad 1 4132889 I am a catering sales manager for a company that does tradeshows and conferences only, no social catering :) I routinely plan meals for thousands of people (I've done 6000 pp at a meal--breakfast and lunch--for several days in a row). I will tell you that most professonal meeting planners take into account their guests culinary needs, and some go a few steps further. Just like everything else, event planners have varying levels of skill/experience so what eventually happens with the meal functions has as much to do with that factor as the sales manager's level of skill/experience. Some planners will be obsessive about all details of the meals, some much less so. In my early days as a manager, I was not as emphatic about discussing vegetarian or other dietary needs. I learned my lesson the hard way, I screwed up on a particular meal big time--and now I make it a point to discuss these needs early on. The company I work for is extremely accommodating when it comes to special meal requests and we jump thru hoops in that regard. We always include a vegetarian option, and if the chef doesn't see it on the event order he calls me. If I get the list of special meals in advance, then we can plan for vegan, gluten-free, lactose free, hallal and kosher. When we have box or seated meals, we check off the names to make sure that we don't give away a meal that has been specially requested. If a guest hasn't given advance notice of their need, then we'll do everything possible to take care of them. Just this past Saturday, I had a box lunch for 3000 pp and one guest said she couldn't chew food. I called the kitchen and ordered a pasta salad, and when I went to the kitchen, we added tuna for protein, mandarin oranges, jello (which we luckily had-we never do) and a lemno bar for dessert. The guest was truly grateful. Another guest needed a gluten-free meal so one of my servers got him a salad and some other sides. Kosher and hallal are the only meals we can't do on the fly as they have to be out-sourced. If we're doing a seated meal, we follow the same process but it's a little more difficult to get something on the fly in the middle of service. Last January I did a seated dinner for 3000 pp. The menu was short ribs and scallops, and the special meals list was extensive--we did all meat plates, all seafood plates, gluten-free, lactose free, kosher and hallal plates, in addition to the vegetarian plates. Everybody got fed. No one went home hungry. The food we serve is really excellent, we source from local purveyors as much as we can and organic if possible. No farm raised salmon, only wild, etc etc. Our clients always rave about our food, so any caterer that can't do quality, tasty food is just plain lazy and unimaginative, IMHO. Mon Oct 27 16:12:44 -0700 2008 4129886 14447 rednails 1 4134574 among the first questions a large-scale caterer asks is about the number of special diet/vegetarian guests, and they expect the coordinator to either order one large menu option or give a specific number of special meals. in a buffet situation the veg meal would likely be plated and served to those who requested it. duh--the caterer asked your meeting coordinator about special meals, your meeting coordinator was too lazy to figure it out, and figured all the veg, kosher and halal folks would be fine with the mac and cheese side. your boss/coordinator is the lazy one, and the one who doesn't get it-- not the caterer-- they can't magically anticipate that there will be a need for special meals when the coordinators tell them there's no need. get the vegs together, go to the boss/coordinator, and in a nice way, tell her/him you can't live on salad and canned cling peaches for a week. stand up and be counted! Tue Oct 28 11:25:06 -0700 2008 4129886 46030 soupkitten 1 4134882 For best results you need to be emphatic with the conference planner about your needs, particularly if they are providing you every meal. In general, conference food is crap whether you are omnivore, vegan or something in between. Even as an omnivore, it is often difficult to find something healthy to eat. The only way to get what you need is to be very specific with the conference planner in advance. It is the conference planner who can get the caterer to offer healthier cuisine of every variety if they are willing to put in the effort. If you medically or religiously require a special diet, you can be damn sure they are going to accommodate you, but again you need to be specific. And they may serve you the same thing repeatedly. Boring, but you're being accommodated. Maybe you don't partake in the buffet, but they set your meal aside for you to request. As a former conference planner, I have taken care of vegetarian, vegan, and kosher meals without incident for the past 20 years. As a whole food vegan myself, I expect to be disappointed, and I supplement with my own stash of nutrition bars, nuts and fruits. I'm not there for the food. The caterer is interested in repeat business from the conference planner, not you. It is up to the conference planner to properly represent you. If they don't you need to let them know, but in a professional way. If you have a good planner, they will work with the caterer beyond the standard menu options. A good planner will also appreciate positive input to help them do a better job. Tue Oct 28 13:52:12 -0700 2008 4129886 30090 maxie