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You're right in the middle of a major change, and you need another New Boards recommendation or suggestion right now like you need a hole in the head. And yet, I'd like to make one. Please maybe put a post-it on this and keep it for consideration later.

One of the best things you did for my blood pressure was to create the National Chains board. It separates those that think that Chains are chowhoundish and those that don't. It's not so much a volume issue (although these threads used to go on, and on, and on...), but rather a change that keeps acrimony and snarkyness from sneaking into our otherwise rational and informative conversations.

Something of the same kind needs to be done for mass-production, packaged foods. There are those that celebrate Kraft Mac'n Cheese and there are those that think of this kind of mindless pablum as a real deterrent to learning more about deliciousness. As with the chains threads before the current manifestation, these topics sneak up on us, so it isn't always as easy as simply seeing a title and ignoring the thread in order to ignore the pitched battles. We have something to say that we think of as being a contribution, and before you know it, we're locking horns with someone about their wasted childhood, spent eating Campbell's soup out of a can.

I recommend that we change the National Chains category to include National Chains and Packaged Foods. Let those that want to discuss the rankings of national peanut butter brands and the infinite and complex layers of taste inherent in the Colonel's 11 spices, have at it in the privacy and comfort of their own kind, with no snark. Keep temptation away from those of us that feel that you have to become an adult, sometime after you're 35, anyway.

This would make it easier for the more rational types to ignore these nearly religious ravings, just as we do now for the people who worship at Olive Garden. Let them preach to the choir. Let them hallelujah and huzzah to their heart's delight. In fact, there is clearly a synergy between those that think chains are delicious, and those that think that prepared mass-market foods are similarly delicious - I've often found them to be one and the same. Perhaps, extending the board in this way would further enhance their community - allowing for the improved cross-cultural flow of information between those that have a deep understanding of Kraft Mac'nCheese and those that know that you really do deserve a break today, at McDonald's.

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  1. I second this brilliant recommendation.

    1. I see the logic in this suggestion but it also sounds like it's going to be a tough one to implement and keep those posts off the General Topics board. Right now, it's "General Food Topics"- any question about food in general goes there. Trying to make this distinction is going to feel like splitting hairs to a lot of people, and will likely torque off a fair number of posters. Also, by saying packaged food discussions don't go there, you're sort of saying they aren't foods. Which, I realize, is how you view it, but it's not how most people do.

      3 Replies
      1. re: Chris VR

        Most people where? On Chowhound? Do most people on chowhound want to discuss chains?

        1. re: applehome

          I have no evidence to back this up, but yes, even on Chowhound, I'd bet the majority of people do consider packaged food (such as cereal, peanut butter, pasta, tomato sauce) to be actual food. I'd suggest you start a poll if you really want to know, but that's just the kind of chatty thing I'd personally hate to read :-)

          I think trying to say "General Chowhound Topics is for REAL food" and expecting people to get the difference between apples and applesauce, steaks and cold cuts, tomatoes and salsa etc. without a lot of people getting pissy and seeming like it's all just splitting hairs is a pipe dream. Especially since that board goes back maybe to the founding of the site? There's 11 years of posts on that board discussing all that food, and every time an old post about packaged food comes out of the archives via a Google search, someone new is going to say "hey, why is that post OK and mine isn't?"

          I have no idea if most people using this site want to discuss chains... I'd guess not. However, there's an understandable rationale to putting them on a separate board. What's the sense in having one thread discussing Big Macs on the Boston board and another on the Florida board, with people saying pretty much the same things? And being able to pool together everyone's knowledge on what to eat when you have to go to Cheesecake Factory makes sense. People understand the difference between local/mom and pops and franchised chain restaurants pretty easily.

          Having two boards devoted to the discussion of food items, and which board you choose depends on whether or not it's processed... well that's just never going to work without an awful lot of moderating, reporting, and overall just pissing people off. I can't see it being worth the trouble.

          1. re: Chris VR

            You make good points - especially with regard to the moderation issue. And no, there's no reasonable way to take a poll. But in the long run, splitting General Chowhound Topics may actually be a good thing, both from the perspective of volume and managing content. Anything to improve the signal to noise is a good thing, and I do have the feeling that people posting that "Kraft Mac'NCheese is the best". is noise to most people here. Even if you like it, and it's your comfort food, the constant posts reaffirming that it's ok for chowhounds to eat it just provides no new deliciousness information - no signal, just more and more noise.

      2. I've had this post and thread in the back of my mind for most of the evening and I hope that what I have to say comes across as being thoughtful and measured - my intent is not to offend, but I feel I must speak up.

        I am offended by the implications in the OP and some of the follow-up, that somehow people who might find some redeeming features in packaged food are immature ("those of us that feel that you have to become an adult, sometime after you're 35, anyway"). This is absurd and insulting. I'm also dismayed at the vitriol and dismissive attitude that excludes contributions from those who don't eat "real" food or who (heaven forbid!) actually find something pleasing in packaged foods or (gasp!) food from chains.

        You're free to eat as you like, think as you like, act as you like, and so forth. I fully respect that. But I ask that you likewise respect my decisions to eat what I desire, think what I think, and act as I feel appropriate. I'm not knocking what you believe - in fact, we likely have quite a bit in common - but I do believe that there is room on these boards for civil give and take.

        As someone who chooses not to eat many meats, I don't like reading (for the most part) about some of the more, um, carnivore based meals that are consumed at restaurants - but I don't post about how offended I am - I recognize that we all have a right to be here and participate. I can choose not to read the posts / threads that I find upsetting - or I read them and refrain from commenting - or I read them and comment on one of the sides mentioned or ask about something else raised - but I do my best to remain quiet when the post goes against what I believe, because I recognize that each individual needs to make these choices for themselves. (Trust me, I've ranted about some of the things I've inadvertently read - and there's one post, from over a year ago, that still bugs the heck out of me.)

        I understand what you're suggesting in having a separate board for packaged foods, but I think it's completely unnecessary and (more pertinently) likely impossible - what about people talking about the favorite brands of mayonnaise? A recipe discussion that contains suggestions for pre-made pasta?

        In the OP, the idea of a discussion about "the rankings of national peanut butter brands" is raised - I think that is a great discussion topic and can see that be reading it (or something like it) I might well come across a GREAT new peanut butter that I didn't know existed - maybe it's one that's somewhat obscure, or only available by mail order - and it might be one that you contributed - if the Chow-folks start segmenting off more and more discussion, there's going to be a loss (I think) of information being contributed - or it'll be scattered and difficult to find.

        According to the Chowhound Manifesto, "Chowhounds know where the good stuff is, and they never settle for less than optimal deliciousness, whether dining in splendor or grabbing a quick slice."

        Deliciousness is subjective - please don't dismiss my (and others') contributions because we find things delicious that you find abhorrent. I promise to do the same.

        (PS - On another thread, where you [er, applehome, I mean] and I were going back and forth about mac and cheese, you mentioned a home-made recipe with Gruyere - it'd never occurred to me to make mac and cheese with something other than Cheddar [I'm not much of a cheese person] - that actually sounds good and something that I'm going to try - and it's unlikely that I would have gotten that idea had the topic / thread been shunted off to another board where folks into home cooking wouldn't want to go.)

        1 Reply
        1. re: ElsieDee

          "In the OP, the idea of a discussion about "the rankings of national peanut butter brands" is raised - I think that is a great discussion topic and can see that be reading it (or something like it) "

          Here ya go: http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/558411


        2. It is tough to express the counter-opinion without a little snarl, but jfood will try like ELsieDee.

          Jfood finds the philisophical idea that people who use packaged foods or eat in chains not worthy of the CH boards offensive. Jfood, for one, has his favorite boards and some that are somewhat meaningless to him and he reads the threads in those that are of interest.

          And jfood loves a good cheese whopper every now and then when he can sneak one in. And the idea that he is less of a CH because he wants to know what people think of a new brand of peanut butter is, in jfood's opinion, and anti-CH position. "Live to eat" does not say live to eat only if you are able to find it right from the vine or the utter.

          And where does it start/stop? Does it mean that jfood can no longer find opinions on Hazan's recipes because she uses canned tomatoes, or make Garten's chicken pot pie in January because he can not find fresh peas in CT.

          So in hopes of expressing a different opinion, jfood likes the idea that people may first come to the boards to seek advice on chains, and then learn to love the home cooking boards to expand their knowledge of self-prepared foods. Imagine the thrill everyone enjoyed when they first made and tasted Hazan's bolognese after growing up with Ragu and ground meat. Jfood likes both in its place but the enjoyment of the former still brings a smile to his face. likewise jfood appreciates learning about different packaged foods that may make an aspect of his chow-view more diverse.

          so the boards are here to both exchange information and mentor. we should embrace all aspects of food.

          1. All of you weighing in on the topic have my sincere appreciation. Whether you realize it or not your responses best illustrate the wonderfully diverse nature of CH's and why it is such an appealing communitiy. Room for all.

            Thank you to all of you for conveying the points of deliciousness so universally.

            1. I think the really sticky part would cross a lot of boards; that is, what about home cooking threads that make use of packaged foods as a part of a larger recipe (jfood's example of Hazan's recipes using tomatoes)? It's also a very difficult line to draw....Kraft Mac n Cheese goes in packaged foods, but what about Amy's cheddar macaroni and cheese (all organic, etc)? Does the packaged food have to be nationally available in order to be classified that way? Trying to define things in such a way as to effectively moderate seems incredibly complicated to me and seems likely to result in cutting off useful conversations far more than in removing what some would find to be unwanted conversations to a different board.

              Lastly, the characterization of folks as "all chains all the time" or "no chains ever" doesn't really track with my personal experience reading many of the boards. There are a few people who seem to only post on the Chains board and seem to love all things about all chain restaurants but very few. There are more who post on the Chains board to slam all things having to do with chain restaurants. There are many, many more who post when a topic interests them or post about the one thing they found at a chain that they thought was quite good. These are some of the same people who post regularly on some local boards and in Home Cooking and Not About Food and are clearly actively seeking deliciousness.

              1 Reply
              1. re: ccbweb

                Come to think of it, on the CHOW side of this site the "Super Taster" column features two packaged products, rating them and inviting comments.
                Many posters from the Boards weigh in week to week.

              2. There were several points to be made here, so I did:

                WHAT DO WE WANT THIS SITE TO BE?
                Many people have left Chowhound over the years. We have lost significant contributors who knew about food – great places to eat, how to find great places to eat, great food, what goes into making great food, great chefs, (Did you know that Anthony Bourdain used to post here?). Most left, as the tolerance of what we call noise increased. Most left, as more and more posts provided no new information, discussed no significant food ideas, asked no questions for others to provide information, but became requests for reaffirmations of lifestyles that included the simplicity of eating prepared foods, followed immediately by the insistent demands for not judging people who did not want to learn more about food. As our lowest common denominator grew, we lost our highest unique contributors. Many of those that are left log on much less frequently than they used to.

                There is no doubt that the trend here is towards that lowest common denominator. We march inexorably on, like Food TV, to the inclusion of everyman, and the exclusion of the knowledgeable. The conclusion is inevitable, but I thought it would be a while away. Even then, I never, ever thought that I would see us, chowhounds, singing the praises of Chef Boy-Ar-Dee. As I saw people leave the site, I thought that they were over-reacting. I see now that they were mainly prescient.

                The first thing that people say when posting about eating pre-packaged foods or eating at chains is, “I know I'm going to be beat up for this, but...”. Clearly., there is a well understood association with the laziness, both physical (which sometimes can't be avoided) and intellectual, the lack of effort and lack of desire to learn more about food, that goes along with “settling for the cheap stuff”. So why do we tolerate it? Why have we set our bar so low, that it's perfectly alright for a chowhound to open a can of Campbell's soup for the dinner?

                SNOBISH OR LEARNING?
                The acrimonious label “SNOB” comes out quite often on this site these days. The thing to ask is whether someone that has taken the time to learn something is a snob or not. Is a doctor a snob about medicine and physiology? Is an architect a snob about design and engineering? No matter how much information Wiki now has on the subject, I would much rather have an experienced surgeon remove my gallbladder than a web-browsing super-geek. And I would much rather have a Michelin-starred chef cook me a cassoulet than a supposedly foodie mom open up a box of Kraft Mac'NCheese.

                The manifesto is like our Declaration of Independence, or perhaps, the Preamble to the Constitution. It gives form to the site and voice to our purpose. It is historical, but also a living document, much like these others.

                One of its main themes is specialness. It speaks to deliciousness because not everything is delicious. The manifesto states that, “We're not talking about foodies. Foodies eat where they're told; they eagerly follow trends and rarely go where Zagat hasn't gone before. Chowhounds, on the other hand, blaze trails, combing gleefully through neighborhoods for hidden culinary treasure.”

                Where is the trailblazing in declaring your love for Kraft Mac'NCheese? Even if comfort foods were not a trend, what great piece of food information are you passing on to others?

                The idea that learning changes the palate seems strange to some. And yet, it is at the core of people who truly love food. Learning about the different styles of que takes you from Chilli's par-boiled babyback ribs to a back-country roadhouse that actually smokes their ribs – or even to your own back yard with a smoker and a yen for dry rubbing some St. Louis trimmed spare ribs and turning them into something really special.

                Even with equipment and technique, learning changes the way we do things. We learn to do things faster, with more flavor, easier. Learning about knives takes you from Cutco to Ryusen, from a place you thought was good enough, to one where you know that you're working with something special.

                CAN WE BE A REALLY BIG TENT?
                This business of being a big tent is interesting, but ultimately limiting. Without a real vision, a direction, a framework – not just as a web site, but philosophically, the site is doomed to mediocrity.

                The first food web site I posted to was the Phantom Gourmet site that serves New England, along with their TV program. When I started posting there more than 10 years ago, I was already well into analyzing what I ate, defining and writing about my life-long interest and love of food. I detested the blatant commercialism, the obvious catering to advertisers and constant rating of lowest common denominator items, from rating Skippy Peanut Butter to comparing McDonald's against Burger King, but I didn't know there was a choice. When I found Chowhound, I found a home. There were people who felt, as I did, that there was more to food than marketing advertisements and slogans – there was more to understanding the elements of what went into making food good, than simply tasting it. There were new flavors and textures to be exposed to – new techniques to learn, new styles to understand, new cultures that prepared foods in ways that went beyond anything I had been exposed to – and I had already been a world traveler to some degree.

                It was also important that I felt that I was a contributor. I needed to help others in the same way that they were helping me. I wanted to share what I knew from my upbringing, my unique mix of cultures, my travels. Chowhound allowed me to do that. People acknowledged my expertise and contribution in those areas I knew well, just as I did the same for other people in their areas of expertise. Where I ran into divergent views, I would say that 99% of the time, the parties involved left the conversation learning something – not just that there were divergent points of view, but why they were so different.

                Things are different now. I understand why some of our greatest contributors have left. They left (or they contribute little any more) because Chowhound now praises Chef Boy-Ar-Dee and Kraft Mac'NCheese, where it didn't used to. That may sound snobbish, that may sound terribly unfair. But it summarizes the philosophy behind the people that now run and frequent the site. It's not that everybody eats the factory pre-packaged stuff. But that we're tolerant of it. We talk about it, we praise its worthiness as meals for our children. It's not just an understandable emergency ration or an almost as understandable choice to be made when we're too busy and have not planned well.

                That is so far off the deliciousness message, that it has to be thought of as a radical change in our raison d'etre – our mission. This change is a big one. The manifesto now stands as a virtual mockery of what we used to be. Anything and everything is delicious. Being a foodie is now the same as being a chowhound, and it takes no time, no effort, no desire to learn, no analysis, no understanding. All we need to do now is to log on and find out where we're supposed to go, what we're supposed to do, and if that's opening a box of Kraft Mac'NCheese, that ok because that's a chowhound thing to do.

                At this point, this site might as well be part of the TV Food Network.

                20 Replies
                1. re: applehome

                  Gosh, I think that's awfully damning. Just because some hounds occasionally enjoy a box of Kraft Mac'NCheese doesn't mean the site has gone to hell in a hand basket.

                  1. re: MMRuth

                    When we line up to praise it - when we no longer have the desire to teach and uplift, and have the guts to say to these people - Kraft anything just plain sucks and is the refuge of those that have no real desire to improve their food knowledge - that's when we've gone off to la-la land.

                    1. re: applehome

                      I guess I would disagree that the desire to teach and uplift (though I don't see my role on CH as being an instructive one, per se) has left the site. The fact that some occasionally seek comfort in products that others might eschew doesn't seem to me to degrade the entire site. There are times when I'm sick that only some jello and reconstituted Campbell's chicken soup with noodles will do.

                      1. re: MMRuth

                        As I've said many times, it's not the occasional or the exceptional, but the lowering of standards so that the norm includes these pre-packaged foods. If we say that Kraft Mac'NCheese is the best (or even just a "good") Mac'NCheese, or that Chef Boy-Ar-Dee is an acceptable dinner for our kids - why do we even bother having this site?

                        We've been around for a while. So let me ask you this - why do new people come on board expecting to lower our standards? Why do we think that our tolerance needs to accept this?

                        1. re: applehome

                          I guess I may be missing something, but I don't think I've seen anyone post that Mac'NCheese or Chef Boy-Ar-Dee is either (a) the best example of that dish or (b) that those foods are acceptable 'regular' foods for children. But, it may well be that I simply don't read those threads.

                          And, I've not noticed that new posters are asking me - I can't speak for others - to lower my standards.

                          1. re: MMRuth

                            Those posts exist - check out the thread on Cheating. One of the responses above is indeed a paean to defining deliciousness as anything and everything - which of course makes it meaningless.

                            A post or two, a thread here and there, doesn't seem like much. But the near unanimity that cheating (using pre-packaged foods) is fine and great, and the similarly united response to any objection to such foods and the boxed approach to foods being a regular part of chowhounding, makes me think that there has been a basic shift in our group-think. We are more tolerant than ever. And that's not necessarily a good thing if that tolerance extends to lowering our standards.

                            1. re: applehome

                              Right - but it's called "Cheating" - i.e., something away from one's normal standards of deliciousness, that one still finds to be delicious. Twice a year I completely enjoy a breakfast of a McDonald's sausage biscuit and hashbrowns, with a Burger King Whopper Jr. and onion rings for lunch, while driving to and from my mother's in North Carolina. Should I refrain from posting about that enjoyment?

                          2. re: applehome

                            Well I disagree that my standards are lowered by new posters coming in and discussing the best brand of packaged macaroni and cheese. I think you should feel able to maintain your own standards no matter what others around you are saying and thinking. I don't know if I just have a stronger ability to filter out what doesn't interest me, but I find it easy enough to skip discussions, even entire boards, that just don't interest me. So perhaps that's why these posters don't bother me in the way they seem to bother you.

                            Posters come and posters go. One site can never maintain all posters at all times, and there's no point in deluding ourselves that we can. So I can't get too upset about people moving on. New people have come in that have enriched the discussions, and when they leave, hopefully new people will come along.

                            I'm still eating better than I was last week, thanks to this site (in particular, an apple cake recipe for dinner this weekend and upcoming dinner plans at a place that was reviewed here.) When that's not happening, I'll move on. If you're not learning anything new here, then perhaps you've outgrown the site. It happens, but cultures grow and change despite what individual participants want it to do. You can grab a board and surf in, or go find another beach, but standing at the edge and railing against the tide seems like it would be all frustration and no fun, so if that's how it feels to you, then you probably want to find another beach to keep your sanity. This is supposed to be a fun thing to do. If it's not fun, why do it?

                    2. re: applehome

                      I welcome a reply from the Chowhound Team on applehome's passionate observations. Will member opinions and insights play a pivotal role in how this site develops in the future?

                      If so, could you explain how those ideas should be shared. Thank you.

                      1. re: HillJ

                        Seems to me that we're already sharing these ideas on this thread. Would be interested in your thoughts as well.

                        1. re: MMRuth

                          Hi MMR. If I understood appleh's post she's looking at the bigger picture; not one Board. appleh's ideas cover more than the structuring and content of one Board but rather speaks to the way in which CH's use & share within this community of Boards.

                          My question remains, do posteres have an impact; not just an opinion, in how CH/CHOW is developed..especially in the content permitted?

                          1. re: HillJ

                            Sorry - I misunderstood - didn't realize you were referring to applehome's first post.

                        2. re: HillJ

                          Posters play an absolutely pivotal role in how the site develops, every time they hit 'Add a New Topic' or 'Post My Reply'.

                          The volunteer moderators and the paid staffers don't start the conversations and we don't (and really never could) judge the content based on its houndliness -- just whether it's honest, friendly and on topic.

                          Telling people what not to post won't change the direction of the conversation, because it doesn't create conversations on what people do want to talk about. The direction the conversation takes is entirely up to the posters -- the more that our stalwart hounds post about the absolutely houndish things that interest them, the more the site will be about those things.

                          And while there are certainly a few national product threads on General Topics (I spy ones about Hostess Cupcakes and Alphabet Soup on the front page at the moment), along with those chatty poll threads that we discourage ('foods I'm embarrassed to admit that I like' and the like), there are vastly more active threads on a variety of much more houndly subjects -- everything from the origin of olive oils to threads about coconut flour, razor clams and persimmons. And I'd never even heard of coconut flour until this morning -- never mind bought it in a box from Kraft.

                          -- Jacquilynne, Community Manager for Chowhound

                          1. re: Jacquilynne

                            Jacq, thank you for the comments and for answering my question.

                        3. re: applehome


                          We all understand your poassion for cooking from the earth and jfood always appreciates your correcting the correct definition of croquette. But jfood has to say that he never knows where the next good point will come from.

                          Will jfood eat a box of mac and cheese because that thread has 200+ posters who say how great it is? nope. Does jfood have "chains" as one of his favorites on the left side of the screen? nope. does he think he will find anything worthwhile on a thread titled "cheating"? nope. Jfood reads the thread that will increas his knowledge base, reaqd posts from people he respects and tries to learn about great food from hot dogs to croquettes.

                          If people leave CH because there are threads about people they deem "lazy" in their cooking habits, then quite frankly, they are "lazy" in their efforts to work their way through thye noise to the meat.

                          Jfood couldn't care less about 95+% of the topics and would rather err on the side of too much information versus not enough. And CH does not "praise" Chef Boy r Dee or Kraft or anything else, it offers a forum for people to speak of food. If you can convert one CBRD or Kraft M&C into making their own, then that is a winning discussion. Jfood has expresed that opinion on RR and the FoodTV, you try to mentor to teach not tell them to go away.

                          And in the end much of what you wrote is hyperbole. CH has not turned into the CBRD food site of the FoodTV love fest.

                          You need to separate what you want to read and leave the rest behind.

                          1. re: jfood

                            "If you can convert one CBRD or Kraft M&C into making their own, then that is a winning discussion. Jfood has expresed that opinion on RR and the FoodTV, you try to mentor to teach not tell them to go away.... You need to separate what you want to read and leave the rest behind."

                            This is a very good point. But we all took turns at the "Cheating" thread (including yourself), so we don't always stay away from threads that should have no meaning to us. I see mainly people telling each other to ignore the snobs, but I see no mentoring whatsoever until I tried - to which there was universal rejection. Don't get me wrong - this is not about reaffirming me - it's about what we've become. I believe that the responses would have been different a few years ago - there would have been more suggestions along the lines of what I did - to try and inject some guidance, next steps, new paths - not just to reaffirm the poster's pov.

                            I believe that we definitely used to provide mentoring better, as a group. When people signed on with bad information or ignorant suggestions, we responded with lots of information and some suggestions for next steps - foods to try, techniques to learn. When we do that today, we are snobs. Everything is OK, I'm OK, you're OK... This site, then, is no longer about learning, but about just having nice conversations and feeling good.

                            ChrisVR says that he still learns - he picked up a new recipe just last week. That's probably the most relevant comment here. And people are certainly still posting reviews. So life goes on. But I'd still like us to mentor more and quit shutting (shouting) down mentoring efforts by everybody jumping on the "it's all ok" bandwagon all the time. We should challenge suggestions, certainly, but by pointing out what's wrong with the suggestion or making a better one - not by simply saying that it's ok to remain at a particular level of cooking or food appreciation. That's the dialectic - that's how we learn and get better.

                            Of course, certain people are well beyond mentoring and challenges... you know the type... people who sit in DC on business trips eating CBRD in their hotel rooms... But we can dismiss that incident by noting that he was probably watching Bourdain while doing so. (And that he posts the most informative, fun to read posts - no matter what the subject - and where's the closest capybara butcher, anyway?) Isn't it ironic, though, that a world-traveler, who eats virtually anything and everything wherever he goes, eats CBRD when in the USA? I guess someone might think that indeed that's what the native food is here... oops... it is!

                            1. re: applehome

                              Excuse my ignorance, but what is CBRD?


                              1. re: danhole

                                I think it's Chef Boyardee ... or however you spell it.

                                1. re: MMRuth

                                  Thanks Ruth! I would have never guessed that.

                                  1. re: danhole

                                    Sorry - Jfood used it, I thought it was a good idea and used it in the other thread as well. It's certainly easier than typing it out... and I actually have no idea how to spell it.