563138 Tue Oct 07 17:55:59 -0700 2008 9 34 Wine 0 4089332 My wine-tasting partner and I are planning a Napa wine tasting - six wines, all red, mostly moderate in price. (We can spend a total of around $150-$200 for six bottles of wine.) Our goal: Six tasty wines that are distinctively "Napa" and are a good value for the price. Crowd-pleasing is a plus, as are wines that are mostly ready to drink now. Super-oaky would be a minus in my book (though some attendees love oak and think more is better. :-) My partner has been out researching at Costco, and has suggested these wines: - Franscican Magnificat - Turnbull Cab - Clos Pegase Cab - Rutherford Hill Merlot - Titus Zinfandel - ... and a pinot noir to be determined What do you think about these choices? Are they keepers? What would you do instead? I'd love your suggestions for wines that highlight the best of Napa at a reasonable cost. Note: We need generally-available wines, as we'll be shopping in MSP (Minneapolis/St.Paul) wine stores - no mail-order for us this time. Thanks! Anne Tue Oct 07 17:55:59 -0700 2008 12541 AnneInMpls 1 4089608 Hi Anne: Not sure I'd include a pinot noir, as it is so very different from the other varietals you have mentioned; however, if you do, make sure you taste it first among the wines or it may simply be overpowered. For a value-oriented Napa cab, I like Signerello's 'the Edge.' Bill Hunt turned me on to this wine on this site, and I have purchase the 2005 twice. Both times, I thought it punched above its weight for its price (around $20 in the US; $30 in Canada, where I live). I'm a big fan of Caymus's cabernet sauvignon for around $60 (not to be confused with the 'special selection' which costs around $140). Many consider this to be one of Napa's most consistent wines. I second your idea of including a Turnbull wine. I think Turnbull wines tend to represent good value (by Napa standards). I also recommend Cliff Lede Cabernet Sauvignon. Again, I think their basic Cabernet Sauvignon represents good value by Napa standards. I wish you luck. If I was hosting the tasting, I'd be tempted to stick to one varietal, probably either Cabernet Sauvignon or Zinfandel. This would give you a better idea of different Napa producers' approach to the varietal. Or, you could try sourcing single-vineyard wines from different parts of the valley to get a sense of the range of terroir in Napa (i.e. get a wine from Mt. Veeder, another from Rutherford, another from up near Calistoga, etc...) However, I have a feeling that it would be challenging to source six single-vineyard wines from Napa for $150-$200, particularly as you are in Minnesota. Do you have multiple decanters? I think that all of the wines will taste better with two hours of decanting. Decant in a cool room if you can (perhaps you have a cellar?); the wines will taste better at around 62-65 degrees than they would at 70. If you don't have six decanters (not many people do, but I'm sure many on this site do!), see if some of your attendees can lend you one for the event. Or, you could use the old double decanting method where you decant a wine, then pour it back into its bottle using a funnel (just make sure to rinse out the decanter between wines!). Look forward to your report! Sounds like a fun evening. Tue Oct 07 20:14:04 -0700 2008 4089332 99971 anewton 2 4091821 Thanks for the info! Good point about the Pinot being overwhelmed by the bigger wines. I was concerned about that, as well, but my partner is pushing for pinot because she loves it. Ditto with zin. But I think I could talk her into focusing on bigger wines. And thanks for the tip about decanting - we don't have six pitchers between us, but we could probably use big measuring cups and a funnel (as long as no-one saw us) See my reply to Jason, below, for more of my thoughts about the tasting (i.e., to all-cab or not to all-cab?). Thanks, Anne Wed Oct 08 16:48:04 -0700 2008 4089608 12541 AnneInMpls 1 4090111 Anne, I am a bit unclear, however, as to the purpose of grouping two Cabernets, one Merlot, one Cab-Merlot blend, a Zin and a Pinot together, UNLESS, of course, it's "just for fun" -- in which case, these will do fine. However, if your don't mind a couple of different ideas . . . . Let me go "back to basics" for a moment, and ask you what you are trying to learn/discover/prove by and through this tasting. In other words: A tasting of six different varietal wines all from the same winery, same appellation, same vintage -- for example, Cache Phloe Cabernet, Merlot, Pinot Noir, Zinfandel, Syrah, and Barbera, ALL from the Napa Valley, and all from 2011 -- can give you great insight into the differences between each of these varieties . . . . A tasting of six different wines, all from the same variety, same appellation, and same vintage, but from different producers -- for example, six Napa Valley Cabernets, all from the 2011 vintage but from six different wineries -- can give you great insight into different winemaking styles . . . . A tasting of six different wines, all from the same variety and same vintage, but from different appellations -- for example, six Cabernets, all from the 2011 vintage but from six different areas (e.g.: Napa, Sonoma, Mendocino, Paso Robles, Santa Cruz Mtns., and the Sierra Foothills -- can give you great insight into the different regions of California . . . . A tasting of six different wines, all from the same variety, the same appellation, and same producer, but from different vintages -- for example, six Napa Valley Cabernets, all from Jean Deaux Vineyards, but from the 2011-2016 vintages -- can give you great insight into how wines age, develop, and change over time . . . . And so on and so on . . . . So, when you say you want "wines that are distinctively 'Napa' and are a good value for the price," is THAT your objective? "Distinctly Napa" but with great QPR? Sadly, I don't think $30/btl ($150 between 6 bottles) is gong to go very far . . . Besides Costco, is there a retailer in the Minn.-St. Paul area with a website that might give me a better idea of what's available to you, so as not to suggest some specifics that are impossible for you to get? Cheers, Jason Wed Oct 08 06:12:33 -0700 2008 4089332 28122 zin1953 2 4091872 Yup, you've pinpointed the lack of focus, varietally speaking, in the suggested list. That was bugging me, too. But we'd like a bit of grape variety - especially since each member hates at least one red varietal (mine is merlot; others hate pinot, and one can't drink zin...). So we're aiming for more of a "dip your toe" intro to various Napa wines, rather than a comparison of one varietal. I do like the "six varietals from one winery" approach, but I wonder if we could find anything worthwhile in our area. Maybe BV, but I think only the big four are easily available (cab, merlot, sauv blanc, & chard). Perhaps we could do two cabs, two merlots, and two blends? Or focus mostly on blends? Hmmm.... You're exceedingly kind to offer to check out our local wine availability. The stores with searchable online inventories (some sketchier than others) are: Surdyk's - http://www.surdyks.com/ France 44 - http://www.france44.com/shop/wine.asp Haskell's - http://www.haskells.com/shop.aspx World Market (not that I would shop there - it's expensive and has clueless staff - but anything they have is also available elsewhere in town) - http://www.worldmarket.com/Wine/Napa-Valley-California/lev/2/Ne/5/sectionId/2865/N/29+4294966062/categoryId/29/pCategoryId/29/Ns/TOP_SELLER_INDEX|1/index.cat Many thanks, Anne Wed Oct 08 17:02:18 -0700 2008 4090111 12541 AnneInMpls 3 4093833 Anne, I *tried* to search for you. Rough-going. Weird search engines, few good listings, and usually no prices or vintages. Surdyk's carries the Faust Cab -- a beautiful wine and terrific for the money. Also, the Sequoia Cab and Chappellet Cab, both recs by Whiner. Unfortunately, no vintage dates are offered in the wine descriptions, so I can't tell if these wines are ready to drink or not. I know the Faust is, though, as they've only been producing it two years, and I've already consumed a case of it. France 44 doesn't allow a search for Napa, only California, resulting in 720 wines. When you click Page 2 of the results, the wines go back to French only. So, their search engine is a bust. Haskell's has the Dominus Napanook (can't find others worth your dollars), though this wine takes a few years to be drinkable, and just like Surdyk's, no vintages are listed. World Market lists a couple of good Napa Valley wines (not many!), but doesn't lists the price, vintage, or availability, so that makes searching that website tough. Of the recs already listed, there is no Caymus listed at the four stores you've linked to, nor Signorello or Havens. Anne, I'm sorry, as Jason said, $150-$200 for six Napa wines is unrealistic. You will probably pay $45-50 a bottle, so to keep within budget, do 4 or 5 wines rather than 6. Napa is known for Cab and Merlot, so that is what I would taste, and I would probably stick to Cabernet. Napa is not known for Zin -- it's made here, but it isn't a regional focus. Go to Sonoma, and specifically Dry Creek) for Zin. If your goal is to taste Pinot, don't compare it against Cab, as others have said, and focus your search on Oregon or the Russian River, or some other area known for Pinot. Pinots are not cheap, however, so you will run into some price restrictions there also. This was a difficult search. I'd probably recommend that you work with the wine store with whom you have a personal relationship. Or buy the four wines recommended. I wish there were more Napa wines available to you, and that the sites were easier to search and listed prices and vintages. Thu Oct 09 12:58:24 -0700 2008 4091872 18222 maria lorraine 3 4093851 Anne, it would be my guess that you WOULD like Merlot is you ever had a good one! ;^) Far too many are overcropped and therefore thin and watery, but there are a number of truly wonderful wines out there . . . What about the idea of doing something like this: -- 2005 Franciscan Oakville Estates Napa Valley Cabernet Sauvignon, a blend of 82% Cabernet Sauvignon, 13% Merlot, 2% Cabernet Franc, 2% Syrah, 1% Petit Verdot -- 2005 Franciscan Oakville Estates Napa Valley Magnificat, a blend of 73% Cabernet Sauvignon, 23% Merlot, 2% Malbec, 1% Petit Verdot, 1% Cabernet Franc . . . see what the difference is . . . or not . . . -- 2005 Clos du Val Cabernet Sauvignon, 85% Cabernet Sauvignon, 10% Cabernet Franc, 3% Merlot, 2% Petit Verdot -- 2005 Clos du Val Merlot, 83% Merlot 6% Cabernet Sauvignon, 11% Cabernet Franc . . . almost directly inverse proportions . . . -- 2005 Chappellet Cabernet Sauvignon, 84% Cabernet Sauvignon, 9% Merlot, 5% Petit Verdot, 2% Malbec -- 2005 Chappellet Merlot, 79% Merlot, 17% Cabernet Sauvignon, 2% Malbec, 1% Petit Verdot, 1% Cabernet Franc . . . similar makeup as Clos du Val, but different part of Napa OR . . . -- 2001 Beaulieu "Rutherford" Cabernet Sauvignon, 99% Cabernet Sauvignon, 1% Merlot and Petit Verdot -- 2001 Beaulieu Napa Cabernet Sauvignon, 97% Cabernet Sauvignon, 2% Merlot, 1% Cabernet Franc . . . what's the difference between "Rutherford" and "Napa"? And then, you can add -- 2001 Beaulieu Napa Valley Merlot, 89% Merlot, 10% Cabernet Sauvignon, 1% Petite Verdot You get the idea, Anne, I'm sure. Poke around and see what you find -- a lot of the information about a wine's varietal composition can be found on the back label, the winery website, or it can generally be obtained by emailing the winery. One more thing, in general, as much as possible try to keep the vintages the same in a non-vertical tasting (a "vertical" being the same exact wine over many different vintages). That was you can not only eliminate the effects of aging but the affects of weather during different growing seasons. Cheers, Jason Thu Oct 09 13:01:22 -0700 2008 4091872 28122 zin1953 4 4094048 I was thinking of suggesting Clos du Val, especially their merlot; thank you for noting them. Thu Oct 09 14:21:01 -0700 2008 4093851 170641 VenerableBede 1 4092827 I would look to the wines of Chappellet. The Mountain Cuvee Cab and the Merlot for sure. The Signature Cab if you want a more expensive wine ($45ish out here, maybe $50 where you live). Also, deffinitely check out Sequoia Grove Cabernet. They have been great values since Michael Trujillo took over full operation with the 2002 vintage. I haven't had any recent vintages, but I always liked the Havens Reserve Merlot. In fact, the entire Havens line of wines is good. Thu Oct 09 06:49:32 -0700 2008 4089332 50041 whiner 1 4097906 Thanks so much for all the info! Maria and Jason, you're true chowhound saints for braving the horrors of local wine searches. Thank you, thank you, thank you! It's not much fun, is it? Luckily, a few of these stores are better in reality than they are online (not all of them, though). Most stores have no online presence at all - luddites are common in the local wine scene. We've got a lot to think about, and some great ideas to work with. I think we'll focus on Cab and Merlot (we'll definitely drop the Zin and Pinot), and will see what we can do within our budget. We've got a few weeks to manouver - our tasting isn't until the end of the month. Thanks again! Anne Sat Oct 11 12:11:00 -0700 2008 4089332 12541 AnneInMpls