558627 Fri Sep 19 01:59:49 -0700 2008 24 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 4046379 hi. i recently grilled ribeye steaks from my 'weber smokey joe'. it was so tender because i cooked it at a right temp for medium donness and was crusty outside as well. i like crusty ouside and pinkish inside. but i have some unresolving curiosity that while it was being indirectly grilled with vents of its lid being opend, outside textue and color of steak was getting gradually red-er and crustier but not charred ( due to my concern of turning the steak into carcinogenic). its lightly dark redness looked very appetizing to me and of course its juciness inside went perfectly well with crunchness outside. i was very satisfied of the outcome. but i wonder if the color of its redness after grilled may be not a good diet condition for long term eating. and moreover why i can not replicate its lightly dark red color effect on outside meat by using gas oven after putting it into from pan-roasting . could anyone give me some idea why are they like that? Fri Sep 19 01:59:49 -0700 2008 200474 hae young 1 4046391 Seems to me that folks sensitive to carcinogens produced in charcoal grilling were weeded out of the human gene pool shortly after mankind started cooking meat! hae young, as to your question about color change i don't think i'm following you. I think i will await further comment from other readers. I have not noticed the differences you describe. dick Fri Sep 19 02:33:49 -0700 2008 4046379 148516 mr jig 2 4046401 EVERY time i grilled steak with indirect heat it produces some good looking red color partly-like bbq appearence which usually take long time. but putting the steak into pre-heated gas-oven from pan-roasting wasn't similar except the steak becom more crustier. i dont know if the taste doesn't make big difference. but i think, in my opinion, those two methods definitly produced slightly different colors in general Fri Sep 19 02:44:11 -0700 2008 4046391 200474 hae young 3 4046406 ok! i think maybe my expression of the color of the texture isn't appropriate. if i can fix that, i should call the color as some "brownish" red such as partly-bbq-like Fri Sep 19 03:04:29 -0700 2008 4046401 200474 hae young 1 4047664 The way you have chosen to cook your steak is not exactly 'grilling' -- you're essentially 'smoking' your steak in a high-temp, indirect, closed environment. As to your question of 'redness', read here: http://bbq.about.com/od/barbecuehelp/g/gsmokering.htm How often are you eating grilled meat? If you're concerned about carcinogens, they're basically everywhere, so eat a properly grilled steak! Everything in moderation, but you only live once... Fri Sep 19 11:50:47 -0700 2008 4046379 10606 Joe Blowe 2 4048252 thanx for the post. i naver new it was called "smoke ring" Fri Sep 19 15:58:48 -0700 2008 4047664 200474 hae young 1 4048808 If you use real wood charcoal, (which you should for several reasons - see below), you can indeed develop a smoke ring on a grill. It's not going to be as prominent as something that was in the smoker for hours, but it's going to be there. It is a reddish ring that develops just inside the crust. This is a good thing - it is layer of flavor complexity that you can't get as deeply in the oven or with a gas grill. You should only use real wood charcoal, and not briquettes for several reasons including that it burns hotter, is not made artificially with chemicals, and leaves far less ashes to clean up. You can also get a deeper smoke ring with real wood charcoal - far better than with briquettes. Briquettes are useful for lower temp, longer duration fires - such as in an offset box smoker where you pile on real wood on top of the lit briquettes to actually create the smoke. But in a grill, like the smokey joe or the bigger weber kettles, they're not as useful - plus if you're worried about the carcinogenic properties of charring meat (and that happens with gas or electric grills as well), then why would you tolerate the chemicals remaining in the artificially pressed briquettes? Joe's link to the explanation of the smoke ring is a good one. Harold McGee pretty much says the same thing in his reference, On Food and Cooking, in a section called Persistent Colors in Cooked Meats. I highly recommend this book. You seem to have a lot of curiosity about cooking - some of it scientific, but a lot of is about technique and taste, as well as history and lore. This book is perfect for you - it will explain a lot of phenomena as well as guide you in trying new ways. Fri Sep 19 21:19:13 -0700 2008 4046379 10312 applehome 2 4048999 thanx for posting i have question applehome. i use kirkland(made by Costco) hardwood lump charcoal. do you regard that as real wood charcoal? i think it's fine enough to me. but iam not sure if its qualities may be not the same as some other company's realwood charcoals. Sat Sep 20 00:57:14 -0700 2008 4048808 200474 hae young 3 4049017 I haven't seen that in my Costco - I'll have to look for it. Anything that says hardwood lump is going to be better than briquettes. I have noticed differences between brands in that some have extremely small pieces that burn out very quickly - I try to avoid those. Here's a great site that reviews lump charcoals: http://www.nakedwhiz.com/lumpindexpage.htm?bag Sat Sep 20 01:49:12 -0700 2008 4048999 10312 applehome 2 4050576 Just so I'll understand more correctly, please list your source of the "artificial chemicals" used in charcoal briquets. If you look at the official ingredient list of Kingsford Charcoal (non Match Light), there is not anything that doesn't naturally occur in nature. The major bonding agent used is corn starch. The largest burning agents are carbonized wood (same as lump charcoal) and sawdust. Other than naturally occurring chemicals like boron (a sodium) and clay and being pressed into a briquet, there is nothing artificial about charcoal in briquet form. Sun Sep 21 02:13:37 -0700 2008 4048808 215379 Grillncook 3 4051365 Briquettes are made from wood and coal, where lump hardwood charcoal is just plain wood. Coal, although natural, has volatile esters that flavor the meat. Nitrates are used as an accelerant and lime is used as an ash-whitening agent, without which you would not know that the coals are ready to cook with. Here is one quick reference - it lists sources at the bottom of the page. A quick google search will get you some others. http://www.madehow.com/Volume-4/Charcoal-Briquette.html While I did not list any specific brand, such as Kingsford, I would remind you that this is not a food product regulated by the UDSA or FDA, so there are no actual requirements for listing ingredients and any amounts used or left behind. Artificial, as a term, can not only apply to ingredients but to the process itself. Briquettes are made by a modern machine-based process invented by Henry Ford. Lump hardwood has been used by mankind for millennia. Sun Sep 21 13:44:40 -0700 2008 4050576 10312 applehome 1 4048925 Sorry, don't understand the questions. Why what are like what? Fri Sep 19 22:52:36 -0700 2008 4046379 55316 mpalmer6c 2 4049000 i meant oven baked steaks were not same as smoked steaks because smoked ones by my joe created smoke ring Sat Sep 20 00:59:00 -0700 2008 4048925 200474 hae young 3 4148568 is there anyone who think steak which is both grilled and shortly smoked are worse than only grilled ones in terms of flavor? Tue Nov 04 07:37:28 -0800 2008 4049000 200474 hae young 4 4148615 When I use a Weber kettle with charcoal and wet mesquite chips for rib-eyes, I get exactly the thin rusty layer you speak of, also with rack of lamb. I consider it perfection. Tue Nov 04 07:56:35 -0800 2008 4148568 57170 Veggo 5 4148709 wow! its very good to know that. i googled about this and found out someone who said never smoke steak. those people must be saying sth deffrent from this combined grill and smke method in weber kettle i guess. perhapse they meant only smoking in a long duration in smoker machin but not in this rustic way of charcoals and veggo what kinds of wood chip do you think convey good flavor with hardwood charcoals during cooking? . Tue Nov 04 08:32:59 -0800 2008 4148615 200474 hae young 6 4148992 HY, I lived 8 years in Texas and 4 in Mexico and thought the rest of the world was suffering for not having mesquite. But I see bags of mesquite chips in markets everywhere. Overpriced, but worth every penny. Soak 2 handsful in a bowl of water for 20 minutes, drain. You want heat and smoke, so adjustment of the top and bottom air vents is an art form that comes with time and personal preference. Add the chips when your coals are going red to gray. This can take a while, at 9000 feet it can be almost an hour, but an average will be 30 -40 minutes. If your rib eye starts to "curl up" in the first 8 minutes, your fire is too hot. Ideally, you want a constant, gentle flow of mesquite smoke flowing from the top vent. This imparts the layer of flavor and starves the coals of oxygen so you don't cook too quickly. As a guideline, a thick ribeye may take 22 minutes, a rack of lamb maybe 28. You are not "smoking" the steak, but you are adding 50% to the cooking time, at a lower heat and for reasons you may like. The rib eye and the lamb will both be juicy, as you will observe when you cut into them after 10 minutes in repose. It's like getting into Carnegie Hall...practice...practice... I have heard of success with cherry wood, and hickory, but I have not tried either. It must be a hard wood, certainly no spruce or pine or cedar. Tue Nov 04 10:17:46 -0800 2008 4148709 57170 Veggo 6 4149006 Smoking - in terms of real bbq - which is low temperature and long time, the opposite of grilling, high temp short time - is only really good with meats that have a lot of connective tissue. The long time cooking breaks down the connective tissue and melts the fat enhancing both the texture and the flavor. Doing this with meats like beef rib-eye or strip, which are fairly short fiber, with lots of integrated marbling but little connective tissue, doesn't work well. Like other low and slow methods (eg braising) it will disintegrate the meat. But the short term smoking that occurs with either using real wood charcoal or by adding hickory or mesquite to the charcoal (sometimes in a box or foil), adds smoke flavor and as you've seen, can create the same smoke ring reaction even if it's not as deep as long term smoking. BBQ is best done with meats like Beef shoulder or brisket, Pork shoulder or butt, Leg of Lamb, almost any kind of ribs. The same kinds of meats you would consider braising to make tender. Tue Nov 04 10:22:34 -0800 2008 4148709 10312 applehome 6 4154857 hard fruit woods are great as are hickory and mesquite, which have distinct flavor. Apple and pecan are good all around woods. Thu Nov 06 18:00:57 -0800 2008 4148709 60617 rednyellow 1 4152499 Grilled is a very generic term. It could be gas, electric or wood/charcoal-fired. If you are talking grilling a steak to pink in the middle with any crust on the outside then you should be prepared to have a one inch, minimum thickness steak and a pretty hot fire. At a (low), smoking/BBQ'ing heat you will have it well-done before you have much of a crust or color ring. When I cook a steak, whether as Veggo has suggested, or on my gas grill, with artificial coals, I add the wood chips, get the grill good and hot, and smoking, and cook the steak based on thickness. "Smoking" implies cool and slow which is not applicable to steak. You cannot achieve the same effects with an oven. It is not hot enough to sear the steak. There is no radiant heat unless you use a broiler. The char you are worried about comes from flames and burning, which should be avoided. Wed Nov 05 19:40:06 -0800 2008 4046379 137946 Scargod 2 4152800 so do you think shortly putting the lid on and grilling thick steak by indirect heat (after direct heat)shortly wont infulence or enhence on flavor except pikish red color of smoke ring effect developed? Thu Nov 06 03:49:28 -0800 2008 4152499 200474 hae young 3 4152858 and my 1st motive for indirect grilling is that i want to develop crustiness ouside steak without making any marks of chars. when i direct grilled the meat i naver put that on grill grate much longer. i mean i just brown it both side. and indrect grilling or shortly "smoking" it and later if it is a little late developing crustiness i just put that on again on direct. and continue on indirect heating with lid on. untill medium doness of inside but never up to med-welldoness. becuase i feel its very dry to eat relatively. i often hear people complain about their gas grill's reaching high temp and even my smokey joe gold's ability of reaching high temp. but after i used this joe glod with lump charcoals i came to conclusion high temp is not a necessary requirment to grill thick steak because hight temp, i felt, just quickly burns outside meat which i would like to avoid. rather my joe gold's providing temp was enough for sloww grilling or shortly "smoking" i guess what makes good steak isnt high temp. its due to the character of wood charcoals. Thu Nov 06 04:53:14 -0800 2008 4152800 200474 hae young 1 4153451 Hae Young, I think we're all having a bit of trouble following you -- what exactly is your question at this point? Do people enjoy steak that is cooked slower in a smoky indirect environment, or do people like their steak cooked quickly in a higher heat environment? It's all up to the individual, you know, "to each his own," "chacun à son goût," etc. I love steak grilled over good wood (oak, hickory, etc.), but my wife prefers her steak cooked on a gas grill without any "wood smoke" flavors. (I'm trying to teach her, but it's an uphill battle ;-) You say you like your steak "crusty" but without any grill marks ("marks of chars"), which leads me to believe you would prefer your steak cooked indoors, say, under a broiler or sauteed. But you don't seem to have any problem with "smoke" flavor, so I would say you're doing everything right: Build a decent size mound of good charcoal on one side of the grill, wait until the fire has subsided, place the steak on the opposite side of the grill, cook until preferred doneness. So, are your remaining questions theoretical, or do you have some other questions on technique? Thu Nov 06 09:30:30 -0800 2008 4046379 10606 Joe Blowe 1 4154409 Joe's right - it could just be lost in translation, but you're coming across as if you're seeking the perfect solution. No such animal. For each person, for each type of meat, for each and every day - there are going to be different solutions. I have a weber kettle, weber genesis, a semi-home made gas & wood smoker, as well as a smokey joe and a weber portable for the camper. I have hickory and apple and maple and mesquite logs, chunks, chips, as well as lump hardwood charcoal. The only thing I don't use is charcoal briquettes. In the house, I have cast iron pans, broiler pans, stainless steel clad pans, as well as enameled cast iron pots for braising. If there was only one meat I wanted the same way every time, I would have one pan and maybe one grill. Meat is primal. Learning about cooking meat is important - perhaps more important than baking - certainly more important than cutting up all those raw vegetables. Well - I'm just kidding, but in any case, it's a really fun activity. You can eat most of your failures, even if it's not the best thing you ever made. So now that you have built up your thick steak expertise, the next thing might be a bone-in prime rib roast. In the oven or in the weber - this is another great cut of meat that can also gain from a smoke ring (or not - your preference). Or may be you're ready to buy a smoker and start smoking briskets and pork shoulders. Thu Nov 06 14:50:56 -0800 2008 4046379 10312 applehome 1 4154431 I have been grilling steaks for more than 40 years. I have always used some version of the Weber, including Smokey Joe, and in the past few years have switched to lump charcoal as opposed to briquets. Usually cook a ribeye or NY strip sirloin. Best to use prime dry aged beef, but those run about $40 each. So just a good choice ribeye works well too. I get meat out an hour before cooking and salt liberally with kosher salt. Cook over direct heat, with the lid off. Leave steak on until drops of blood form on top, then flip once. I like it medium rare, with a nice dark crust and juicy inside. If a steak is thicker than 1 1/2 inches, I sometimes put lid on for last couple of minutes. Never had a complaint. Good luck Thu Nov 06 14:59:36 -0800 2008 4046379 12296 steakman55