What regional foods do people just get wrong?

[AmblerGirl]

I am from Philly and my biggest pet peeve are all of the abonomations that they I see called a Philly cheesesteak. A true Philly cheesesteak is thin sliced steak, possibly onions, cheese (american or whiz) on a crusty roll. Done. Why does every "Philly" cheesesteak I see advertised have peppers onions and sauce on it? That is not even close. And don't get me started on other cheese -swiss, mozarella, cheddar. I have even seen roast beef and cheddar sandwiches called a Philly cheesesteak. The worst is the new hot pockets Philly cheesesteak. Ugh.

Does this happen to any other regional foods?

[S_K]

"Thai" food. I had a few bad experiences and I think I will probably never eat in a "Thai" restaurant again unless I know the owner personally through family.

[Chowrin]

Vanilla ice cream! [yes. it's about as regional as french vanilla, which is native to france.]

[The Drama Queen]

You're right Chowrin. My pet peeve is the Cornish Pasty, native to Cornwall, England and the Finnish Pasty native to Finland. In the U.S. they are the regional specialty of Northern Michigan.
These delicious little pockets are made with BEEF, not chicken, not pork and god forbid, NOT vegetarian. They contain chopped beef, potatoes, onions, carrots and RUTABEGA. Leave out the rutabega and you don't have a pasty. People from Michigan's U.P. (yoopers) know all about pasties and the correct way to make them. Oh, and the crust should be made of suet.

[paulj]

Did you see the news article that a Cornish Pasty now has to be assembled in Cornwall? It can be baked elsewhere. If the EU could enforce its rules in the USA, those yoopers would be out of business. And your carrots are not allowed.

"The EU regulations specify genuine Cornish pasties must be in the traditional D shape with crimping along the side with ingredients that include minced or chopped meat, potatoes and swedes, the vegetable known outside Britain as rutabaga turnips.

Any pasties that are round, crimped on top or contain carrots are not the genuine Cornish.

Read more: http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2011/02/2..."

[alkapal]

gotta love the govt. regulators.

[Passadumkeg]

Just a point of clarity, in Finnish it is a lija pirraka or meat pastie. Golly gee, I wonder what a Cornish pastie is in Cornish? My Russian immigrant grandfather used to carry them into the mines in eastern Pa.

Kiitos.,

Dumkegalainen

[The Drama Queen]

The Michigan copper miners carried the pasties in their pockets and that's how the practice of making pasties as a convenience food came to Michigan's "yoopers." And yes, they must be D shaped and crimped along the edge, not folded and crimped on the top like a pot sticker. Funny how people really stick to traditions. I've never known a pasty that didn't contain carrots, but then I've never been to England.
Oh and one more thing, it's spelled with aY at the end; the pastie with the ie at the end is a little sparkly thing that covers the nipple and is pronounced PAYSTEE. . Just a heads up. :-)

[paulj]

This site has 20 recipes attributed the UP
http://kenanderson.net/pasties/index....

On a Wisconsin thread I was told about a pocket of historic lead mining in the SE corner of the state, centered on the town of Mineral Point (and proud of its Cornish foods).

[The Drama Queen]

Interesting site. Don't know anything about lead mining in Wisconsin, but the copper mines in upper Michigan were a boon to the area. It was what kept the U.P. alive. Those and pasties. LOL

[hill food]

I'd be quite surprised is someone hasn't already done market research on edible "pasties" but I don't think I'd associate them with Yoopers.

[alkapal]

http://www.lightningspider.co.uk/serv...

a bit larger than a pastie, but -- eh -- so what?

[The Drama Queen]

OMG! That's both hilarious and gross at the same time. Okay, who wants pie?

[alkapal]

i'll bet there are a few lining up. heh heh.

[soupkitten]

pastys are common to northern mn "iron range" as well as wisconsin. it's a whole regional thing. though apparently if you use turnips instead of rutabagas, that's definitely a michigan thing. three slashes on top of your pasty means with rutabagas, two slashes means without. the heavy lard pastry did not crumble, it was supposed to be able to survive a fall down a mine shaft leaving the pie intact. i think people balk at that sort of very dense pastry these days, and the traditional ingredients such as suet, but there are more modern, slightly heart-healthier pastys still being made in the region.

[The Drama Queen]

Yes to the "heart healthy" stuff. As far as I'm concerned making a pasty with turkey instead of ground or diced beef is sacriligious. The flavor of the pasty crust when using suet and butter is beyond compare. I didn't know about the 2/3 slashes. My family only ate them with rutabegas. Still do.

[soupkitten]

heh heh. in my heart of hearts i kind of agree w you it should be beef (round steak or leftover roast). but, i did have a bison pasty that was *very* good-- just throwing it out there. turkey certainly may be blasphemy, but there are so many turkey farms in the region that i can see how someone would come to err in their ways like that ;-)

[paulj]

I don't really understand being persnickety about the contents of a utilitarian food. What's a Cornish miner to eat if turkey fits his budget better than beef? A turkey burger instead of a turkey filled pasty?

I suppose one could go the cottage/shepherds pie route and come up with a different name for an empanada with turkey instead of beef.

Here's a recipe for a Cornish mutton pasty from 1746. This was before potatoes came into common use in England
http://historicalfoods.com/cornish-pa...

[The Drama Queen]

Ya gotta understand paulj, we're talking a long time ago here. Beef was always affordable to the miners, it's what they ate the most of. My husband's family was from the northern upper peninsula and they worked the mines. I learned what was acceptable what was not. They were an adamant, and yes, persnickity bunch. Absolutely NO other meat - and it HAD to have rutabegas. This is the kind of thing that makes a dish "regional." Today things are different. I spend the summer in the northwest lower peninsula and someone opened a pasty shop carrying all manner of pasties including a dessert pasty to the horror of native "yoopers."

[soupkitten]

huh. out of curiosity what was in the dessert pasty? i remember some traditional pastys that had meat filling in most of the pie, and then a sweet filling at one end-- the baker would mark the top of the pasty somehow so the eater would know to eat from the "savory" end to the "sweet" end-- dinner and dessert in one package. i always thought that was a cool idea actually.

[c oliver]

I think it's cute that your family callled them "rutabEgas." I can just hear the pronunciation :)

[The Drama Queen]

Yep, we spent a week in the Calument/Houghton area of upper Michigan and everyone called them ROOT-a-bay-guz. That's how they said it and since I had never heard the word before (we're talking 1962 here) I figured that's how it's pronounced. Now tell me, how do YOU say it?

[c oliver]

I was just commenting on the "beg" as opposed to the "bay." It's spelled rutabagu. The phonetic spelling you refer to is how I've only heard it pronounced.

[alkapal]

chez nous, rutabaga is pronounced ROOT-uh-baeh-ga. my mom always diced them and cooked with chopped cabbage and seasoned with chopped bacon (rendered), salt & pepper. you either love it or hate it. i love it!

[c oliver]

ap, just got Auberge et al and looking forward to reading it while in Brazil the next two weeks. Thanks for the rec.

[alkapal]

while eating brazilian, you'll be reading about eating country french! not a bad situation to be in. have a great trip!

[The Drama Queen]

Diced, steamed til soft, mashed then butter, salt and pepper. That's it for us. Soooo good. That dish is a Thanksgiving staple at our house. I pride myself as being an excellent cook, and can make anything - except dough. I cannot make a decent pie dough no matter how hard I try, so I don't make my own pasties. Very frustrating since my family and I love those things and we can't get them here in Vegas.

[c oliver]

You might like this wiki entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasty

BTW, evidently in the US it IS sometimes spelled with an "ie." Either would be pronounced here with a long A.

[pj26]

...and in the UK, the crimped edge was so the miners could hold the pasty with their dirty fingers - they would then just throw this away after eating the 'pocket' bit.

[thew]

This reminds of the wholly inappropriate joke about the painting of the 3 nude miners, that I will show unusual restraint by not telling here and now. ( would provide a link, but a quick google search turned up only simplified versions I didn't find as funny as the version I know)

Edited to add: this one is closer to the version I know:
http://board.jokeroo.com/funny-jokes/...

[sisterfunkhaus]

I hate this as well. I have never had a real Philly but would give anything for a with Whiz. Can't get them here in Dallas that I know of. Mmmmmmmmm.

[hill food]

sister: isn't that pronounced "wit"? (smiley face emoticon)

[gaffk]

Nope, a cheesesteak wit is wit fried onions ;)

[hill food]

I'll have one of those please.

[gaffk]

Philly CH'ers are a friendly bunch. Drop us a thread, come visit and we'll lead you on a (very heated) cheesesteak tour.

[hill food]

I love Philly, great place - and I do understand the debate over the cheesesteak. I once volunteered during a DC job interview to go to the Philly HQ for their "sniff test" if for no other reason than to get a decent one. I've seen (almost) fistfights over other regional foods (heh).

[tatamagouche]

When my father went to Albuquerque in the 50s for a job interview at UNM the dean of the department took him out to lunch. His ability to stand the chile heat was part of the test.

[jubilant cerise]

I might be the first Canadian to post on this board with what I think are obvious choices: Poutine and Montreal-style bagels. I'm from the west coast and visited Montreal for the first time a couple years ago and wow, are these things ever done wrong outside of Quebec. Poutine seems to have caught on here in the past year or so though and there's a few places that make some tasty renditions. There's even a shop in my neighbourhood run by some Quebecers so that's some authentic eats for sure. But sorry, I don't think I will ever be able to eat another bagel unless it's from a Montreal bagelry.

[tatamagouche]

What are Montreal-style bagels? Do tell.

[jubilant cerise]

Montreal-style bagels have a crunchier exterior, a soft but dense interior with a mild sweetness, and are traditionally baked in wood-fired ovens. I'm sure it made a difference eating a freshly-made one, not one that's been sitting in a bag on a grocery store shelf for goodness knows how long.

Eating a Montreal-style bagel was on my To-Do List for the city but before that I had never really cared much for bagels. I bought a half dozen of sesame ones from the St-Viateur Bagelry (open 24 hours!) on the last day of my trip and regretted not buying more as I ate the last one in the airport, still faintly warm from the oven and completely unadorned by any cream cheese or jam. It was divine and I savoured it.

I'd love to visit New York one day to eat an authentic NY bagel - I'm willing to bet they're awesome too. :)

[hill food]

ohh jubilant - GO, hit H+H bagels on BWay on the Upper West Side when they're fresh (after grabbing lox or whitefish or both from Zabar's across the side street). Central Park isn't too far a walk and make a picnic out of it. sadly West Coast bagels largely suck. regular bread (esp in SF) is great, but bagels, no.

[jubilant cerise]

Thanks for the tip on H+H, I'll be sure to check it out if I ever get the chance to visit NY.

Great local bakeries here too (Victoria, BC) so I'm hoping that someone makes a good bagel - this discussion has reminded to start searching!

[goodhealthgourmet]

JC, if you ask 5 different NYers to recommend the best bagel, you'll likely get 5 different answers...so my suggestion is to try them all and decide for yourself ;)

they're always best eaten warm as soon as you buy them...preferably just by tearing off a piece at a time and noshing away as you amble down the city's streets.

[jubilant cerise]

It's true - personal preferences do play a huge role in what you'll end up liking. Guess I'll just be eating a lot of bagels, lol! And yes, fresh is the best way to go, for so many things...

[Bob W]

If you're in downtown Manhattan, there's a veritable murderer's row of bagels on First Ave: Ess-a-Bagel, Bagel Boss, and David's (from north to south). Even farther downtown, Kossar's Bialys also has very good bagels. I love the flagels (flat bagels, great if you like the bagel exterior more) at David's and Bagel Boss, too.

[jubilant cerise]

ooooh bagel coma! Thank you, BW!

[tatamagouche]

Thanks for the info!

[oddcouple1]

To add to the New England items...

I second the clam chowder. I love taking people out to places where the chowder is "thin" ie made with milk and not a crapload of cornstarch and heavy cream. ANd they usually end up liking it better. It also has to have nothing more than a little saltpork and onion, potatoes and clams. No celery, no corn, nothing else. I am iffy on the saltpork and onions for anything other than a little extra flavoring. I had some once where they though putting sherry on the top was "authentic" - really?

Boston Baked Beans are not anything like the canned ones. Friend's Baked Kidney Beans might be the closest that I have had from a can, but real homemade sauce can never be matched.

My husband is from St. Louis and he is a chef. Every time we go out, if there happen to be "St. Louis Style Ribs" on the menu, he orders them and he is ALWAYS disappointed. I am still pretty unsure of exactly what they are supposed to be!

I am not sure if this is regional, but cold roast beef subs need to have RARE cold roast beef, very thinly shaved and piled on. Not warm, not evenly brown colored. Ick.

[bbqboy]

St Louis style refers to the trim on the ribs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_MGM_...

[hill food]

true, a better term would be "STL-Cut" ribs as the cooking process and sauce are closer to Memphis (or even Little Rock) than any other region. no wonder the poor guy is disappointed.

[alkapal]

i'm thinking -- if he is always disappointed, he might want to order something else. but i guess that hope springs eternal -- like me and the perfect pad kee mao. ;-).

i love ribs, too -- and the good ones ARE truly hard to find.

[Passadumkeg]

We just had fish cakes and beans fro breakfast; a real downeast Maine specialty.

[LaLa]

the sherry is authenic on she crab soup

[pie22]

amblergirl - i am also from philly and i think provolone should be in your ok cheese category for a cheesesteak, considering provolone isn't even available across the US and it is always on my cheesesteaks.

on the side, i am surprised no one has brought up fish tacos - i associate them with san diego (and mexico, of course, but that's a whole 'nother ballgame) and theycan very easily be messed up.

[gaffk]

Pie I was thinking the same about provolone. Maybe I'm old school (and, yikes, old), but whiz was unheard of when I cut my cheesesteak teeth.

Regarding the OP, I worked in a pizza joint in Philly in high school and the pizza steak was popular--steak, provolone and pizza sauce. Although I'm a cheesesteak purist (steak, fried onions, American or provolone cheese on an Amoroso roll) many do order their steaks with sweet or hot peppers.

[bucksguy14]

gaffk, I ran across a stand in Winter Park, FL last week with a sign claiming "Genuine Philly Cheesesteaks". As I walked up to the stand, one of the people asked if they could help me. I said I was from Philly and I wanted to see if they were really "genuine". He said "we definitely are". Here's what I saw - a pile of cooked steak with onions, red peppers, and green peppers mixed in. I said, "you're not" and he laughed! Just more proof of AmblerGirl's assertion about people not from Philly not knowing what a cheese steak is.

[gaffk]

Yep, you can't find a Philly cheesesteak outside of Philly and its environs. Sweet or hot peppers, yes. Red or green peppers, never!

[PattiCakes]

heathens, evey last bell pepper frying one of 'em.

[Passadumkeg]

Gimme a pork sandwich instead. The real Philly food.

[gaffk]

Pulled pork with rabe and provolone . . . *that* is the Philly sandwich!

[gaffk]

Yes! Burn them at the steak! ;)

[tatamagouche]

I don't understand. Both sweet and hot peppers are generally red or green? (putting aside other colors).

[gaffk]

Sorry, my regionalism is showing :) Red and green peppers refer to bell peppers . . .much more mild.

[tatamagouche]

But what are sweet peppers that aren't bell peppers? Those terms are usually interchangeable...Not trying to be a pain, just trying to understand, since Philly cheesesteaks are beyond my ken...

[gaffk]

Not painful :) Sweet peppers on Philly cheesesteaks are generally banana peppers and hot are jabenero.

[tatamagouche]

Ah, gotcha. Thanks!

[ryback]

Ever try grits up north. Gag. Only good in texas and NOLA.

[paulj]

What brand of grits do you recommend?

[hill food]

I scrolled through all of this for that? grits is grits, the prep is the key.

[ryback]

There are many types of grits as well as preps. My local market has 8 types.

[paulj]

I'm trying to understand what is so special about Texas and NOLA grits. There have been many threads about them (and differences from corn meal, polenta etc), but relatively few specifics about buying the correct ones or making them correctly - except from fans of expensive mail order grits.

[Naco]

I suspect the mail order ones get mentioned a lot because they are nationally available by dint of being mail order. The everyday ones I buy at the grocery are all produced in North Carolina, within a couple hours of home.

I'm not really an aficionado of grits, but IMO if you buy stone ground instead of instant you're more or less golden. Grits seem like they'd be hard to screw up. All you're really doing is boiling some water and letting them simmer for a while.

[paulj]

I wonder whether all those NOLA grits cooks are buying locally stone ground grits, or some national brand like Quaker.

[Naco]

I don't know about New Orleans, but my impression is that Anson Mills is very big in Charleston.

The Quaker grits are instant, and even an uneducated palate should be able to tell the difference between them and any other kind of grits. Completely different texture and flavor.

[paulj]

Quaker makes instant, quick, and old fashioned (regular).

By the way, how long do you cook your grits?

[Naco]

I've only ever seen the instant ones, but I confess to not paying a terrible lot of attention to the Quaker products.

As for cooking time, 45 minutes or so for the real thing. Quick grits can be cooked in 15 minutes or so. The package directions will do you fine.

[thew]

now i'm going to have to watch "my cousin vinnie" again

[bayoucook]

I get stone-ground when I can, Anson Mills also. But I keep Quaker or other brand of long-cooking grits. We don't eat quick-cooking or (!) instant grits in this southern home!

[hill food]

ry: true, but IMHO it comes down to how one employs garlic, butter, cooking time etc.

yeah I have a term for "quick" grits that really isn't appropriate for polite company.

[bayoucook]

Hey! Ever been to Mississippi or Alabama? We are *weaned* on grits.

[The Drama Queen]

I discovered a way to make grits for breakfast that blows my mind. Cook the grits with finely chopped jalapeno pepper, then at the end add a little cream, butter, salt and pepper, and a couple slices of extra sharp cheddar cheese swirled til it melts. Ohhhhh baby!!!
And no I don't use instant grits either even though I'm a yankee.

[bayoucook]

Going to cook them that way in the morning, sounds delicious!

[MysticYoYo]

Okay, I'm warping your topic in order go get a point across but....

What is with the Northern aversion to GRITS?

It's CORN people!

I'm from The Bronx (and now live in Florida) and I love grits. Grits with butter. Grits with gravy. Grits with eggs.

If if helps you elevate your taste buds, consider it polenta.

And don't EVEN get me started on the aversion to TOFU... :)

[paulj]

one could just a well complain about the southern love for grits :) It's just corn meal mush! Then there are lovers of grits who argue that they are quite different from either corn meal or polenta, using heirloom dent corn, nixtamalization (though that is a Mexican term) and rest. Would you consider cooking your grits for hours with molasses? Are there any southerners who get Indian pudding right?

[Bill Hunt]

I do agree. Here in the SW, we just tell the folks that it IS polenta. They gobble it down, and often comment, "glad that you did not serve us any grits." OK, whatever it takes.

Hunt

[hill food]

ha!

[Naco]

People define themselves as much by what they don't like as by what they do.

[Bill Hunt]

That is so very true. We try to adapt, and be flexible, though I have to admit that we are not like the dude on The Travel Channel, who "ate everything." I draw a few lines.

Still, I try to be highly flexible, and keep my thoughts to myself (wife wishes that I would adhere to that much more... ).

Thanks,

Hunt

[woodleyparkhound]

Southern biscuits and cornbread. Other parts of the country (especially the NE) just can't get these right. My most recent experience was getting a biscuit in one of the best breakfast places in NYC (Clinton St. Baking Co.) and finding it to be completely inedible. And don't get me started on New England corn bread with so much sugar it tastes like cake. Yuck!!

[Bill Hunt]

Even in the South, biscuits can be a really gray zone. They are also a bit more work, than most are up to. Couple that with so many "must do" recipes, it is no wonder that so many get them wrong.

With cornbread, there are so very many styles, and preferences, that it would take a whole thread to discuss in the necessary details.

Hunt

[ekammin]

How about what they call "Canadian bacon" in the U.S? It may come from the same part of the pig, but the salty, processed stuff that goes by that name there bears no other relationship to real peameal bacon.

[Cinnamon]

Thank you. I knew that stuff must be a scam.

[RealtorKenny]

Yes......Po Boys...Grilled Cheese...."New York Style Anything" "Wings" and on and on...".Freedom is just another word for ......"

[t19103]

I second "New York Anything" but add "Jamaican" anything e.g. jerk or beef patties....

[Bob W]

"Carolina barbecue"

There is no such thing. In North Carolina, there are two distinct styles of barbecue -- Eastern and Western (AKA Lexington). The "pulled pork" often sold as Carolina BBQ might be tasty, but it's not what you'd get in NC. The sauce on what is sold as Carolina BBQ usually bears no resemblance to either NC style,. Further, Eastern NC is finely chopped cue, while Western is either finely or more coarsely chopped (possibly sliced too). I don't think people outside NC expect cue to be so chopped up.

Now, South Carolina has been argued to have up to six distinct styles of barbecue, and somewhere in the state you might get what is often called "pulled pork," but such is certainly not the predominant bbq style in SC any more than it is in NC.

When I hear pulled pork, I think Memphis, not either of the Carolinas.

[Naco]

"Pulled pork" in reference to barbecue in either North or South Carolina is a sure sign that you're dealing with a uitlander. Natives just say "barbecue"; this is simultaneously an assertion of the primacy of their local style, and a disacknowledgement of other varietals. Many aficionados will claim to have not even ever eaten or seen a competing style; it's tempting to think that they're being hyperbolic, but the Southern mindset understands that they are both lying and telling the truth...after a fashion.

[Bob W]

You are so right about the locals. The first time I ever read about NC barbecue was in Calvin Trillin's first book (forget the name for the moment). He was talking to someone in NC and expressed his disappointment with some barbecue he ate. The local asked if he got the barbecue east or west of Rocky Mount. Calvin said "East, I think." The NC fellow said, "Not surprised, there's no good barbecue east of Rocky Mount."

It wasn't until years later that I learned that there was an entire style of barbecue east of Rocky Mount, that it is fantastic, and that Calvin had obviously been speaking with a Western NC/Lexington barbecue adherent.

[Bill Hunt]

Great points. Carolina BBQ can probably be broken into four types, but Eastern Carolina and Western Carolina, cover the bases pretty well. Too many things differ to even go into in this thread. "Carolina BBQ" is not defining things, as they should be, and is like saying "Deep South cuisine." Much too broad to even consider.

For me, I like a finely chopped pork BBQ, that has been smoked for ages, and is served with very finely chopped Cole slaw, that is virtually dry. Any sauce is optional, though not really recommended, unless one is from another part of the South.

Great points, and ones that more should consider, when discussing, or ordering "Carolina BBQ."

Hunt

[bbqboy]

Bill, what does "Deep South" mean to you?

[Bill Hunt]

Many things. It is a broad culinary region of the US, but not really tied together. Think Low-Country cuisine vs that of NOLA. It is a geographical region, but does not include Texas, or Florida, though they seem to fit in, when one is looking at a map. Last, it is a state of mind.

If one does the geography and the math, it is an area of the US, that is about the size of Western Europe, and while there are culinary ties, it is almost as diverse.

In very general terms, it is a cuisine, that is based heavily on the land and the sea. Being poorer, and without the distribution networks of the North, especially the NE, the cuisine is true to the earth, and to the water. It was about what was available with little trade, beyond perhaps spices - though many were indigenous to the region too.

The cuisines differ by the country of origin of the settlers, plus also the contributions of the Native Americans of the areas. Add in the slave trade, and one interjected African, Caribbean, and other groups, plus the cuisine of the traders, Dutch, French, English, Spanish and several others. The countries that claimed each segment of the Deep South added their culture, whether French, Spanish, English, etc. Both Biloxi, MS and New Orleans, LA, are two great examples of these influences. That said, if one goes 20 miles inland from either, things change greatly, yet they fall into my definition of the Deep South. There are similarities, but also many differences too.

If one only knows the cuisine of say Coastal Mississippi, and New Orleans, as did I, then they would not find THAT many ties with Tidewater Carolina/Virginia. They might even seem totally dissimilar, but upon study, one would see that it was just a different geography, and also culture.

Though they are not separated by THAT many miles, there is a great difference between Cajun cuisine, and what would be known as traditional New Orleans cuisine. Some elements of the former DID find their way into the latter, but it was not always that way. Even today, many cannot make the correct connection between those two, different cuisines. They think that NOLA is equal to Cajun. It is not. NOLA cuisine has more Parisian French influences, while Cajun has more Canadian French influences. New Orleans has Spanish influences, while Cajun has few. Same for English influences. Also, New Orleans was a world port, so many things came into the city, through trade. The Cajun country was limited, and the practitioners were limited by the ingredients grown on hummocks, raised on those hummocks, or gathered from the bayous. Only miles apart in geographical terms, but much farther apart in culinary terms.

I think that typifies my ideal of the Deep South. There is much more, but that gets into the "state of mind," mentioned earlier.

Hunt

[bbqboy]

As always, a wonderful in depth response. Thanks. You've got me thinking again.

[hazelhurst]

New Iberia is an interesting case...it had close ties to New Orleans and consequently the food is more similar than scant miles away in any direction. New Iberia grits and grillades, for example. IN St MArtinville, just up the road, grillades (or grillades marinee) is portk on rice.(and on a separate note, "Cowboy stew" in St M. is just an offal mix.)

[alkapal]

hazelhurst -- high 5 on the "offal mix."

[Bill Hunt]

Don't humor him, or we'll never hear the end of it!!!! [Grin]

I would also give him 5 Bonus Points for that one too.

Hunt

[paulj]

John Folse has a book and PBS tv series tracing the influence of '7 nations' on southern Louisiana cooking.
http://www.jfolse.com/pbs/show.html

[tatamagouche]

I want to know what the 4 types are (vs. the 2)! How do you characterize them? I was talking to an SC caterer the other day who said that Charleston isn't really part of SC. He called it a city-state. :)

[goodhealthgourmet]

I want to know what the 4 types are (vs. the 2)! How do you characterize them?
~~~~~~~~~
http://scbarbeque.com/bbq-history/

neat info. i always thought there were three - i didn't realize tomato had two distinct categories!

[tatamagouche]

Interesting indeed.

[Naco]

And two of them are from North Carolina. Poor South Carolina, so far from God, so close to the Tarheel state.

[alkapal]

heh heh naco. good thing you're not within a stone's throw of s.c.?

[Bill Hunt]

Well, let's see what we can come up with.

Caribbean/Hatian
Parisian French
Acadian French (were once probably closer together, but with this one, there was also some Native American influence, plus different ingredients)
Iberian Spanish
Mexican Spanish/Indio (some might easily argue this one)
English
Italian (slightly later by some accounts)
Irish (later still by some accounts)
Perhaps Native American, and not filtered through another cuisine, such as Spanish, or Acadian French.

Cannot think of any others right now, but perhaps other scan?

Hunt

[LaLa]

well he would be wrong

[acecil]

there may be 'no such thing', but you can't find it anywhere else. even poor imitations are less than that!

[gfr1111]

Chicago hot dogs. It's not that any of the ingredients are impossible to obtain outside of Chicago, but rather, that the people who make purportedly "Chicago hot dogs" outside of Chicago don't care enough to get the ingredients right or the cooking technique right.

I moved to Florida in 1990. Since then, I've never encountered a place in Florida that had the black poppyseed covered, thin, eggy chewy buns necessary for a proper Chicago dog. Certainly they could be ordered from many a bakery in Chicago, but noone cares enough (or is willing to pay the shipping charges) to do so. Then, steaming the buns and the dogs seems to be a lost art.

The dogs themselves are thinner than normal dogs, but they have to be because the steamed buns are so thin. If you put a regular dog in a Chicago dog bun, the ratio of bread to meat is thrown all off. Occasionallly, the right kind of dog is being used, but when it is, the bun is wrong--too puffy and bready.

Then when you get to the peppers, they use jalapenos, not pickled sport peppers, even though you can got to any Publix grocery store and pick up pickled sport peppers. (They taste different than jalapenos.) That's just laziness or a lack of concern in trying to duplicate the finished product, which is ubiquitious in Chicago. This is not brain surgery. But hot dog vendors here act like it is.

I could go on and on, but I've rambled enough . . .

[TampaAurora]

Have you tried Mel's in Tampa or Bruce's in Largo?

[Sandwich_Sister]

Southern Grits. I've been places where the consistancy is off too watery too firm, or places that like to add way too many ingredients to them Buter salt and pepper that is all.

[Bill Hunt]

Over my very long lifetime, I think that I may have had grits, in almost every possible prep. To me, many are just fine, from a breakfast cereal to a base for some succulent shrimp with sauce. I have enjoyed them in many iterations.

Yes, many do get the wrong, and that often horribly detracts from the dish.

I have also had too many, who deride grits, and insist that "polenta" would be much better.

So be it. For those diners, I tell the story of my family raising "grit trees" in an orchard in the Deep South. They usually buy into the story.

Hunt

[alkapal]

i'm not surprised that the "i hate grits but love polenta" crowd buys your tale.

[Bill Hunt]

I issue the challenge to, "have some polenta," with my tongue firmly in my cheek - just to see the reaction. It's about that point, that I talk of my share-cropper father's "orchards of grit trees," at least until my wife kicks my shin, beneath the table! Hey, at the base level, it's just corn folks. Nothing to see here. Move along.

Hunt

[soupkitten]

same type of thing works for folks who'd NEVER eat saurkraut, but *looooove* kimchi

[alkapal]

ah, good point -- but at least kimchi has the virtue of heat, no? and can be made from non-cabbage veggies, as well.

[Chowrin]

shame on folks who'd never eat saurkraut.

[jmckee]

...although with cheese and garlic added, they become a delicious and substantial side dish for lunches and dinners. I even have a recipe for "grits souffle" from Camille Glenn's "Heritage of Southern Cooking."

[alkapal]

i usually have grits, but when i had a grits soufflé, i was impressed with its structure, lightness and -- most important -- good flavor. and one can cut it onto neat triangle shapes, like with polenta.

~~~~~~~
for those interested in southern cuisine, follow this blog post all the way to the bottom, to the "comments" section for a short documentary on edna lewis -- and some other links by ms. barash, the filmmaker. http://skyfullofbacon.com/blog/?p=5

[mamachef]

Yum on grits souffle, and extra yum on grits casserole made with crumbled browned sausage or bacon and sharp cheese and beaten eggs; baked till puffy.

[alkapal]

i grew up having breakfast sausage crumbled and browned, then eggs scrambled in. that makes a fine sandwich, too! ;-)).

as for cheese grits, i go back and forth with liking a sharp cheddar versus a creamier cheese like monterey jack. for my run of the mill cheese grits, i like jalapeño jack. yeehaw!

[krisrishere]

Ok, I don't want to start any wars here or anything, but being a "New Englander" it kills me to see a lobster roll made with mayo. A lobster roll should be a toasted top split bun filled with huge chunks of lobster meat and melted butter. That's it. Plain, simple and oh so good.

[iluvtennis]

I went to Maine a couple of summers ago and since i hate mayo, i didn't try any lobster rolls. I thought that's just the way all of them were made. I'd like to try one like you've described...sounds really delicious!

[krisrishere]

It definitely depends on the place you go. I've found that a lot of places in Maine know to do it this way. All you have to do is ask :) Next time you're in Maine, give it a try..you won't be disappointed.

[Passadumkeg]

A regional difference. Stay in Conn for butter; mayo in Maine. Clam pizza in Conn.; lobster in Maine.

[vtnewbie]

Real Indiana fried pork "tenderloin". First of all it's not a tenderloin, and fer goshsakes it isn't made with ground meat either. It is a whopping huge, fairly thin piece of what others call a "pork steak" from the shoulder. It will have a fair amount of fat and connective tissues, because it doesn't incorporate any large muscle.

At an authentic Hoosier place (such as the old White Star in North Vernon), you can order it breaded or plain. Plain will be fried in its own grease on a flat "grill". The others are breaded fairly thinly and deep fried. What is absolutely required is good old-fashioned huge cuts of pork with abundant fat. You can't make a tenderloin from "skinny pig."

[FriedClamFanatic]

And a fried clam roll is superb! Alas, though it never seems to be enough!

[Passadumkeg]

You otta come up to tne Northern Maine coast. With another coupl, a designated driver and a cooler of beer, we go on fried clam safaris to local clam shacks and compare notes on quality and quantity. A real summer adventure, except when I'm the DD. Wifie and I kick around the idea of self -publishing In Search of the Fried Clam on the Maine Coast.

[FriedClamFanatic]

LOl.I"ll be your first subscriber!

[hill food]

heck Passadumkeg, hire a minivan and driver, book some rooms and it's a micro-tour land-cruise.

alternate title suggestions:
"No Bivalve Unturned" "Clam UP!" "A Shucker's Guide to the Down East"

sounds like fun.

[PattiCakes]

Youz guys might be on to something. There's someone here in Philly who runs a beer tour every year & it's quite successful. Every one meets at a particular destination, mini vans & drivers are provided, and you go to 5-6 bars which provide food & beer. They return you to the original destination, which is walking distance to all sorts of public transportation. You could do a Clam-a-Rama.

[krisrishere]

Ugh, heavenly. I want to go too. I'm originally from New England but I'm in Norfolk, VA now. Everyone looks at me crazy when I ask them if they have fried whole belly clams..."what? you mean an oyster?" I'm having Fried Clam withdrawls.

[RealMenJulienne]

I've posted before about my love for Midwestern Chinese food and I do consider it a regional specialty. I've never had a good meal at a Chinese restaurant outside Indiana and Illinois, because when I go out for Chinese I don't want authentic or healthy. I want brown sauce and hot mustard and cabbage-filled egg rolls as thick as my wrist. I want crab rangoons dipped in hot pepper oil, and bourbon chicken with blackened bits all over.

My mother is a treasure and will happily cook an authentic Chinese meal whenever I make it home, but to me at-home Chinese and take-out Chinese are two wonderfully different things!

[FriedClamFanatic]

Those of you who live outside of New England have probably never tasted a proper fried clam. They are NOT those rubbery things that HoJo's used to sell and folks now pass off as clam strips. Unfortunately, fewer and fewer places even in NE know how to make a decent "Fried Ipswich Clam". The only place in Philly I ever found was the Sansome Street Oyster House. (And strangely, most of the clams served in NE these days come from Md!)

Having said that, one of the BEST Fried Clam Platters I have ever had was in Englewood Florida at a place called The Cafe on Dearborn Street. Great huge oak tree patio to sit under and BIG clams with just a light amount of breading - not those overbreaded things most places now serve. Of course, Norma, the woman who owned it, came from Hull, Mass. Alas, she has since sold the place. I should also add a vote for a place in Fort Lauderdale near the boat district that was owned originally by folks from Hingham, Mass

[Passadumkeg]

I agree with you except for the "And strangely, most of the clams served in NE (Is this New England ir the North East?) these days come from Md!" Is this true, clarify please. Visited Mom in NJ this summer and a local ade]vertised "Maine Steamers". I share your passion for fried clams. They are very popular her and very good. Maine also has fried clam rolls, served in a top split hot dog roll. Yum.

[FriedClamFanatic]

NE means New England. Two reasons:

1)They are still very plentiful around Maryland since folks don't eat them as much
2. Much of New England suffered red tides this year

[Eat_Nopal]

Red Tide is probably going to be a big problem for East Coast seafood as the oceans warm up. Also, isn't Cheasapeak Bay extremely polluted or have the clean up efforts worked?

[hill food]

Chesapeake clean up is helping, but still in trouble, one hears of long-time fishers calling it quits. per capita limits and all.

[Passadumkeg]

Sorry, in Maine, I'd guess 100% of the clams originate within the state and many are exported. Red tide is not a very big problem, but as elsewhere, overharvesting is. We have increased regulation and a lot of reseeding of clam flats going on. Gotta have some fried clams today.

[Bob W]

Conversely, oysters -- the other iconic Chesapeake shellfish -- are much more plentiful in New England. "Ersters" were close to extinct in the Chesapeake. The oyster beds are only slowly coming back.

[Sam Fujisaka]

"Those of you who live outside of New England have probably never tasted a proper fried clam. "

Those of you who live outside of California have probably never tasted a Pismo clam fried on the beach - a real, proper fried clam.

[Passadumkeg]

Can one get a fried geoduck?

[paulj]

Only on a mudflat in Washington! :)

[PattiCakes]

And, how many can even pronounce "geoduck? I can, but only because I saw a show Alton Brown did a while ago, not because I really know what I'm talking about.

I never had an "Ipswitch" fried clam until I met my husband, who was originally from RI. I grew up going to HoJo's every Friday here in PA with my mom for all-you-could-eat fried clams. NOW i know they were just a commercial "interpretation" of the real thing, but I loved those suckers. Just thinking about them now gets me drooling. HoJo's Fried Clam Roll, with mayo & relish tartar sauce.

[Passadumkeg]

Ooooooo! Gooey duck! I too, was nursed on HOJO's fried clam roll, but real soft shell steamers w/ dad and his brothers.

[hill food]

I ate once at Sansom Street and it was GREAT, but sadly it looks like it's closed for now, although one owner is quoted as planning reopening sometime.

I would hope my Googling came up with old info but most reports were dated just earlier this summer. what a classic place.

[rockfish42]

"Sourdough" bread that wasn't made with a starter, if I see one more loaf of vinegared bleached white bread presliced in a plastic bag I'll scream.

[pikawicca]

Totally agree. SF sourdough (and others) are scrumptious. The rip-offs offered here in the midwest that are "soured" with vinegar are vile.

[Captainspirou]

I'm from Texas and I know the 2 foods people should be getting right is steak and pancakes and yet everyone is bad at them.

If we're talking about international food though everyone screws up crepes. Not even most of France gets them right. Real savory crepes are called galettes and are made from buckwheat. Yet almost every crepe place I know here does them with practically the same batter as the sweet crepes.

I will argue about american or whiz on a philly cheesesteak since neither was availible when the original cheesesteak was invented. Also REAL(non plastic wrapped) american cheese is cheddar. It's only called american to distinguish it from UK variants. I go with provolone 90% of the time.

[paulj]

Curious that even the original poster can't get the philly cheesesteak right! Is there any hope for the rest of us? The wiki articles don't help a lot. The best I can tell, the chopped meat sandwich originated some time in the 1930s. At some point someone started adding (unspecified) cheese, and by the 1950s at least one of the originators was using whiz.

[PattiCakes]

Go into any bar in South Philly (where cheese steaks supposedly originated), and you will find two distinct camps: one side will swear that the meat must be chopped, or pulled aprt with forks as you grill it; the other will argue that the piece of chipped steak (very very thinly cut meat - almost paper thin) should be grilled as a whole. Even Philly has bastardized their own "signature dish". Most cheese steak places in philly routinely offer pizza steak, a cheese steak hoagie, a pepperoni cheese steak, a chicken cheese steak, and (my personal fave), a buffalo chicken cheese steak. Food evolves, just like the rest of our culture. How about a cheese steak pizza, a taco pizza, a chicken cheese steak pizza or a Hawaiian pizza? And we don't even have Wolfgang Puck here -- this is South Philly, cuz!

[paulj]

Did you see the South Philly 'Mission Impossible' block party on Food Network? They got the meat from one of the established shops, but had to cook it on charcoal grills. I don't recall how they adapted other local specialties.

[bucksguy14]

PattiCakes - I think, based on your postings, that we're in about the same age group - grandkids, etc. I think that all those variations of the Philly Cheesesteak (which amazingly enough is where this thread started) are based on business decisions. I have enough family members in the restaurant business to know that it's what the public's willing to pay for that winds up on the menu and what they don't buy soon disappears. Anyone who's 55 or older, who's lived in Philly (or the suburbs and was willing to "go in-town", knows that the meat is chopped up, and, not usually with a fork, but with a couple of spatulas - it belongs in an Amoroso roll. What else goes in there depends on taste. Mine has sharp provolone and fried onions and nothing else.

[Eat_Nopal]

"I have enough family members in the restaurant business to know that it's what the public's willing to pay for that winds up on the menu and what they don't buy soon disappears."

The commentary on the bastardization or evolution (depending on your perspective) of the Philly Cheesesteak oddly evokes another thread's dissertation on Naco cusine:

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/560352

[Eat_Nopal]

"Not even most of France gets them right. Real savory crepes are called galettes and are made from buckwheat. Yet almost every crepe place I know here does them with practically the same batter as the sweet crepes."

Perhaps you should consider that the minority of those who make Savory Crepes from Buckwheat are in the wrong... and everybody else correct?

Or perhaps you mean to specify that Normandy has the best Crepe tradition in France... and the rest of the French can't make Normandy style Savory Crepes worth their cheap cigarrettes?

[Caitlin McGrath]

Eh, Captainspirou is just saying a traditional regional food (crepes) aren't reproduced correctly, just the same as others are. Crepes originated in Brittany, where they were the daily bread. The majority (i.e., the non-landholder/poor in the feudal system) used buckwheat because they couldn't afford wheat flour. Over time, as wheat flour became more accessible, the custom evolved to use this more refined flour for sweet crepes. Its widespread use for savory is a case of homogenization/bastardization, just as are many of the things you and others decry in this thread. Captainspirou's complaint is no different.

[paulj]

Older Joy of Cooking editions have a recipe for 'crisp corn flapjacks, which, if made without eggs come out lacy. The Joy'isk story with this recipe is:

"A distinguished botanist friend had as visitors on a field trip a Parisian confrere who traveled accompanied by his gifted Indonesian chef. To amuse the chef, our friend cooked his favorite corn cakes for him over a campfire. As he tossed the flapjacks, the chef cried out in delight, "Crepes Sauvages!"

[DiveFan]

Sorry, American 'cheese' IS NOT CHEDDAR! American 'cheese' always has been a processed cheese food 'product' which usually contains some non-original added fat and other non-dairy ingredients. Velveeta and Whiz are in the same category. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American... .

For historical branding reasons American producers of cheddar style usually add annatto to color the product, in order that Bubba will not confuse it with jack or other white cheeses.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not associating 99% of the posters here with 'Bubba' (unless they want to be :).

American cheese is to cheddar as 'natural' HFCS is to cane sugar and surimi 'krab' is to real crab meat. Thanks for NOTHING, FDA!!

[Captainspirou]

I know my answer is delayed but I've been busy.

According to the wiki link it says that american cheese has it's origins in cheddar. It's much older then what is wrapped in plastic. I was making the argument that cheddar isn't a bastardization of a philly cheesesteak in american cheese is allowed.

[Kris in Beijing]

Here in Beijing, Every few months I get into a craving fit for what my European friends call "ICFP" -- Imitation Cheese Food Product. To them, and to me, that's American Cheese.
Yes, there was probably some artisanal bovine-based product made in America that could be called American Cheese a long time ago, but for me at least, "American Cheese" is ICFP.

[Caroline1]

I'm amused with myself over this more than amused by the question. I had never really thought about it before, but while I KNOW there are "regional" foods,, when I encounter them fixed in different ways I seem to just think to myself, "Oh, this is the way they fix this around here." It never seems to occur to me that they're doing anything wrong.

On the other hand, if you read me very often, chances are you know where I stand on such cullinary conundrums as "carrot confit." That's just plain stupid and pretentious! But for the most part, in everyday cooking (but NOT haute cuisine where the language is specific) I don't mind whether they call it a Philly cheesesteak or a beef and cheddar with grilled onions and peppers, if it tastes good, chances are I won't waste the emotional energy over what they call it.

[PattiCakes]

"oh, this is the way they fix it around here". I think you may have successfully and succinctly closed this topic! Well put.

[chef chicklet]

Well Caroline, I just don't know, because we in Cali ( is the hair raising yet?) do love our Tomatoes Carpaccio. You will get this if you were watching cherf m. Chiarello the other day. Talk about pretentious. Just slice the darn tomatoe and sit down!

I do understand the cuisine mixups some of us just have never known any better, but slowly as I go to different restaurants, and like you, I see the differences and I do appreciate them all.
What I'd do to have an experience as e nopal, man what a luky duck.

[KevinB]

One thing no one has mentioned yet: poutine. This French Canadian treat of fries, fresh cheese curds, and gravy is fast food's nirvana, but people keep messing it up, trying to "improve" it.

Daniel Boulet puts pate de foie gras on it, for heaven's sake - talk about gilding a lily! Other places don't use cheese curds, just curls of regular cheese - it's not the same. And don't get me started on gravy made from powder.

[Blueicus]

Martin Picard of Au Pied de Cochon puts foie gras and a sauce mounted with foie gras on it... he's pretty French Canadian.

[paulj]

Is there enough history and tradition to poutine to worry about innovations? How far back does it go? 50 years? I see from the wiki article that the word itself has a number of uses, and an uncertain origin, though some claim it is a derivative of the English pudding.

[mpjmph]

Fried chicken. It's supposed to be shallow fried, in about an inch of fat, and it takes a long time to cook. Deep fried chicken is just wrong, the breading is too heavy and it all falls off after one bite. Really, any "southern" food that is cooked in an industrial deep fryer instead of cooked in 1-2 inches of fat in a cast iron skillet. Or anything that is dipped in batter before frying, then called southern style. Southern frying, at least in Eastern NC, involves dusting in flour or cornmeal, maybe dredging in egg first, but never dipping in batter.

[danna]

Interesting. That's the way my Mom made fried chicken(w. sc)....no more than 1 inch of oil, I would guess. She never deep fried anything. I always just assumed she was trying to be healthy, or didn't want to waste that much oil. Don't tell her, but i like the martha stewart method better.

[exotec]

Yes! and has to be in a cast iron pan. And if you don't follow all that with a nice milk gravy, well... it just isn't worth it!

[bucksguy14]

One other thing I just thought of that's screwed up in the Philadelphia area is Pork Roll. There's only one Pork Roll - Taylor's! Anything else is a sorry imitation, that includes what most people in the Philadelphia suburbs think is Pork Roll - Hatfield. Hatfield is not Pork Roll! It's an inferior brand of meat that tries to pretend it can compete with Taylor's - it can't!

[hill food]

I'm intrigued - what is Pork Roll? I can imagine it relates to other things and it's something good, but need education. (only really been to Philly once - passed through a coupla times)

[bucksguy14]

This link to Wikipedia explains it a whole lot better than I can - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pork_roll

[Passadumkeg]

Taylor Pork Roll, on a Kaiser roll with a fried egg, cheese and, oh, my God, ketchup. Heavenly. That, along w/ jfood's previously mentioned Sloppy Joe and the Italian Hot Dog (Maybe the panzerotti too. ) are New Jersey's contributions to the junk food world.

[Eat_Nopal]

I think you guys might enjoy some Chicharron Prensado:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2228/1...

Fatty roasted, salted pork of various textures pressed into a cake... that is then sliced off & pan fried for a variety of purposes... gordita filling, tacos... or most naughty the Morelos style Pambazo... a sour Mexican roll... quickly deep fried then dunked into a spicy sauce... split open & filled with Chicharron prensado, cabbage, pickled vegetables & crema.... enjoy it while you are still a teenager.

[streetgourmetla]

Did someone say chicharron prensado!!! Compa, now you are making me hungry.The ultimate treat, fun for the whole family.

[porker]

THAT IS ONE AWESOME PICTURE!
Kinda like the Simpson's Barney Gumble on Duff Beer: "Where you been all my life?!"

I basically try to enjoy all things chicharon (in moderation, hopefully), but have never experienced prensado.

Coupla questions.

Where can I likely find it. My travels to Mexico have mostly been to Yucatan and Quintana Roo. I've had some great castacan, but never seen prensado.

Since I will most likely not get to a prensado producing area for some time, how can I make it?
churchka posted this back in March, with no favorable results.
http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/497484
My search also runs dry.

Thanks.

[Eat_Nopal]

Actually... I had some Chicharron Prensado tacos in the village of Tikul in Yucatan but that is near the Puuc Hills region.... I don't know if they make it in Quintana Roo. But you know... Cancun & Playa del Carmen are packed with Chilangos & people from the Anahuac.... that is why you can now find Nopales, Huitlacoche & other dishes not native to the Yucatan... I bet you can find them.

[porker]

Typical of my luck...we stayed at the Hotel San Antonio, just behind the zocalo, in Tikul 7 months ago while visiting the area. Did not see Chicharron Prensado - however it's probably more difficult finding something you don't know exists...

Can you compare prensado to perhaps a particular al pastor, where the cut of pork is belly? Seems to me that I did have roadside al pastor which was kinda like this, although not looking your picture...

[Eat_Nopal]

Oh no... I don't mean to rub it in at all... we were driving by and decided to stop for some Yogurt etc., and ended up walking around the Plaza & adjacent streets browsing the locally made Shoes (which I believe is Tikul's primary artisinal tradition)... I saw a little shack with sheets of raw pork for cecina hanging in a corner... they asked if I wanted some Cochinita for breakfast... I told them every tourist trap I had been to only offered Cochinita, Pollo Pibil or Poc Chuc and needed something different. To which they offered Tacos de Chicharron Prensado, a guiso of Chaya & Ibes in Pipian & a Pico de Gallo (the real classic style with finely chopped Oranges, Jicamas, Cukes, Onions etc.... not the Tex-Mex misnaming of Salsa Mexicana).

[porker]

You know, its gems like that which really make a trip. (kinda like the 'world markets' thread)

Don't want to get too far off-topic (chow police, ya know), but its still 'regional' related:
Read about Los Almendros restaurant. They have two loations, one in Merida (which disappointed) and the original in Tikul. Apparently it was here where poc chuc was invented.
Against better judgement, we sought it out.
I'll just say it was a waste of an evening (we were the only two diners in a 100 seat hall, shoulda been the first tip-off). Well not an entire loss, the drive there and back in a moto-taxi fighting off dogs was very entertaining.

I will say that the roadside shacks are very often tentative to serve us (we're obviously gringos). After seeing our honest interest and that we're not looking for Burger King, they try hard to please and are very proud of their offerings, which can be fantastic....

[bucksguy14]

How about Taylor Pork Roll, 2 over easy, home fries and a Kaiser roll to mop up the yolk? One of the best places I've had that (other than cooking it myself) is at Luna Rosa in Delray Beach, FL. The owner is from NJ and has it delivered because he knows it's the ONLY pork roll!

[PattiCakes]

When my son was in college in Western PA, we used to buy Taylor Pork Roll and scrapple to take out to him. We also used to take pork roll camping with us back in the day as well when we would go to Watkins Glen or Pocono for the race weekends. Nothing beats grilled slices of pork roll on a roll with cheese and maybe some eggs. Talk about a portable breakfast and a pretty good hangover meal. Passadumkeg is right about Jersey being able to lay claim to popularizing it. A pork roll sammich was a big treat when you were downa shore on the boards. He's also right about it having to be Taylor's. They have their own unique set of spices -- others are just not the same.

Ya wanna talk ketchup? How about a coupla slices of scrapple, all crispy on the outside & mushy in the middle, along with crispy home fries and eggs, all smothered in the red stuff. grease, carbs, cholesterol, sodium, nitrates.....that's my heritage!

[Passadumkeg]

Go Berg and Yacco's! My cousin owns the Pennsylvania Dutch company Wos Wit (Wild Grouse farms), off Rt 309, Tamaqua (Rushing Waters), Pa.
I like apple butter on my cottage, hot bacon dressing on my salad and maple syrup on my scrapple! I work ant a community radio station, WERU (www.weru.org) in E. Orland......Maine.
Just for nice,
Mark

[PattiCakes]

What, no chowcow? I am of PA Dutch/German heritage -- my ancestor lies under the olderst known tombstone in Berks county. Wos Wit is indeed a well-known brand to me. It is sold at my local farm stand! Interestingly enought, I live in E. Oreland ----PA. I work in Philly for a boss who commutes (ah-yup) back to Biddeford ME every weekend. Small, very circular world.

Is apple butter considered regional with the PA Dutch? The apple butter/cottage cheese (schmeer casse) is part of the traditional PA Dutch 7 sweets & 7 sours served with meals? I know that Wos Wit makes many of the items that fall under that umbrella.

I never did maple syrup on my scrapple until I went to a Quilters convention in Lancaster this year. I had breakfast a a very good family diner staffed by Amish/Mennonite & decided to try it. I now prefer it! I think you were also part of the bacon fat in the fridge thread that brought up the hot bacon dressing idea. I may do that tomorrow for dinner -- I'm having very pleasant and overwhelming flash backs to childhood dinners. Maybe we should start a thread about foods that evoke strong memories from our childhood -things that really transport you back in time just by smelling or eating them.

[Passadumkeg]

And don't forget picalilli, peach butter, and saurkraut.
My ancestors go back a hundred years. My grandfather, killed in the coal mines, lies in a Russian Orthodox cemetery in McAdoo. My uncles and I were all shipped off to Muhlenberg to get an education and get away from the mines. Wos Wit is run by Russian-Americans. Caught my first trout and milked my first cow on their farm. Tell your boss we call Biddeford "Little Boston" and the real Maine starts east of Ellsworth.
Hawk Mountain is one of my favorite places in the world.
Eat a pickled egg for me will ya?

[PattiCakes]

Went to the local farmer's market today & bough a jar of peach butter & some pickled beets. My grandmother used to keep bowls of pickled eggs on her bar (yep, she owned a bar) in Mayfield, PA -- up with all those coal miners. She was Rusian Orthodox. I'll tell my boss what you said about Biddeford. I had a lot of fun with him last week after the Pats lost.

Check out Yelp, if you get a chance. http://www.yelp.com/user_details?user...

[chef chicklet]

I really kick myself for not being more attentive to what my Dad was making when I was young. He was always canning something (the time he blew it up, is a story for another day). We had our own garden, grapes, and fruit trees so he made picalilli and chow chow, and during apple season we had apple butter and sauce. I can remember the kraut bubbling away in a crock and he'd lovingly peek in to check it in the pantry ( where he was brewing his beer of the month.

He used to talk about scrapple, head cheese, blood sausage and made us pickled eggs all the time. I've always thought he was German. He said he grew up on a farm in Nebraska. But the food roots have to be somewhere else to get these foods brought into his family, no?

[bbqboy]

here's a start, chef:
http://www.plainsfolk.com/recipe/

http://www.lib.ndsu.nodak.edu/grhc/fo...

[chef chicklet]

wow thank you bbqboy! I was wondering hot to do a little research, appreicate that!

[Eat_Nopal]

My wife's family descends from Nebraska... the area about 150 miles west of Omaha was dominated by Scottish & Bohemian (Czech) immigrants... then as you go east you will find Dutch & German towns. From what I have learned about their family history it is clear that ethnic roots were very deep in the Plains states until WWI when they started to unravel:

> The Scots no longer saw the Czechs as inferior heathens and began marrying into their families... and so both sides lost intensity in their cultural affiliations

> The Germans had a hard time being German due to Germany "being the enemy" over two World Wars (incidentally this is was the trigger for Menonite communities to immigrate to Mexico)

> The Dutch were able to retain their culture the longest, maintaining Dutch language boarding schools, newspapers etc., right up until WWII & 1950's Nationalist Fervor also undermined their ethnic affiliations.

I imagine that the growing integration of Red, Brown & Black people into mainstream America also had an impact on Euro-American diversity... all of a sudden the Dutch, Germans, Czechs, Italians etc., realized they had much more in common with each other than they did with the other people.

As for my long winded point... the dishes you described all sound in line with a blend of Dutch, German, Scottish & Czech roots (with a little Chinese Railroad Worker influence... as I have been told that is what Chow Chow is all about).

[bbqboy]

Pretty good summation, EN, and yet there are still outposts on the Plains from the Tex/Mex border(or further?) to the Canadian provinces where you can find Bierocks and Deep Fried Tacos and Kolaches and Povitca. Might be Church socials or
Fundraisers but the food of the Plains still exists.

[BarmyFotheringayPhipps]

My god, I yearn for a bierock. My father's job took us to Russell, Kansas for nine miserable months when I was 14, and bierocks and one really good record store in Hays are the only good memories I have of that place.

[hill food]

I'll have some of that.

[FriedClamFanatic]

oh man! That one makes me wanna run out to the grocery store, by-pass the bacon and sausage and reach for the red&white box!

[sadiefox]

Case's Pork Roll is a legitimate product! Not Hatfield, though :)

[bitsubeats]

maryland crab cakes. I'm from Maryland and I would never dream of ordering a crab cake from out of state or worse yet, from a chain.

It should be a ball of crab meat (preferably lump) with a tiny little bit of binder and broiled. I hate seeing crab cakes that are flattened pucks with lots of bread crumbs.

Oh and speaking of which, what is up with that crab cake throw down with bobby flay? Why in the heck didn't he go against someone from Maryland? Lame.

[hill food]

c'mon bitsu, other states have crab too, it's only fair to let them play even if they're just going to throw the ball into the cranky neighbor's yard.

did they call them Maryland crabcakes? only DE or VA can get away with that IMO (being all Chesapeake).

I agree - less binder the better.

[bitsubeats]

hey DE and va can call them whatever they want...I was just surprised to see someone from Maine making crabcakes (when it's supposed to be the best) when it could've easily have been someone from Maryland.

to be honest with you...I dont even like crab cakes that much. I much prefer picking my own crabs and smearing the "mustard" on sourdough bread. mmmmmm crab fat

[hill food]

I do agree that the crabcake is much more iconic of the Chesapeake. I envy Maine their lobster rolls let them excel at that. It would be laughable for someone from Annapolis to try to present a definitive one of those.

definitely agree on the hockey puck version and even that's found around this region and they're all way too ubiquitous.

[Passadumkeg]

Hey, I grew up catching blue crabs in NJ and mom made a mean, round crab cake. I continue making them here in Maine using rock and Jonah crab meat and I feel it works well. We prefer the Maine crab roll to the lobster roll (usually).

[MakingSense]

The local waterman would take issue with your crab cake definition and recipe.
Hillfood is right about MD not having an exclusive claim to a down-home use for crabmeat in a basic fishcake using the crabmeat that was plentiful for the watermen in the Chesapeake Bay region. The MD/VA State line runs right down the middle of the Bay.
Most of the old-timers used all the meat that they picked from the crabs or what was left after the pickers sold the fancy lump off to the packing houses.
The recipes in church or community cookbooks use saltines or fresh bread crumbs (about 2 oz by weight) to a pound of crabmeat as a binder.
And they're mostly pan-fried (what we fancy city folks would call sauteed) or deep fried. Plain people are stove-top people.
.
I hate that everybody now wants crab cakes and the old New Orleans traditional specialties of Crab Chops and Stuffed Crabs have disappeared.
Local restaurants all serve crab cakes now.
Not a lot of difference but old food traditions are nice to preserve....

[pikawicca]

What's a Crab Chop?

[MakingSense]

Similar to a crab cake mixture but formed around a large crab claw so it looks like a large chop - like a pork chop or something.
They were served in seafood restaurants so I suppose someone dreamed it up ages ago as a presentation thing.
Nobody did them at home.
Stuffed crabs were popular for home cooks and still are. Similar to crab cake mixture but stuffed back into the top shell of the crab and baked. Easy to prepare ahead and no worries about them falling apart.
There were pyrex crab shells and also disposable foil versions for people who didn't pick their own crabmeat.

[Passadumkeg]

We called stuffed crab Deviled crab and crab chops are an old New England tradition too, but rarely found today.

[Eat_Nopal]

Marco... I think all communities with significant Crab harvest have some kind of stuffed Crab dish... certainly all the Mexican gulf states do (Tampico, Veracruz, Tabasco, Campeche etc.,) in multiple variations:

http://www.prodiamex.com/

[oldbaycupcake]

I'm not even sure what constitutes a Maryland Crab Cake here in Maryland. One would think that it would be made with local Blue Crab from the Chesapeake Bay & the recipe would be something traditional like the famous recipe from Mrs. Kitching's Smith Island Cookbook. But in reality most crab cakes here are made with pasteurized Blue Crab from the Phillipines and the recipes are as varied as colors in a box of Crayons.

What I know is that I love crab cakes! I may have my own preference for what I think of as a Maryland Crab Cake, but I have to admt that I've had some great crab cakes in different states and cities even if they aren't my idea of Maryland style. I'm never sure what I'm going to get in Annapolis, why would I be surprised by what I get in Vegas, Chicago or Miami?

[c oliver]

Biscuits. I grew up in the South and the only biscuit I've ever tasted outside the South that tastes "right" to me is at McDonald's. Those big, thick, cakey things aren't biscuits in my book. A biscuit is relatively thin with a distinct crust on the top and bottom.

[Eat_Nopal]

Phillippe's The Original in L.A (credited with inventing the French Dip) makes really great biscuits. In fact, my dad used to bake them when we first migrated to the States prior to his promotion to Head Cook.

Of course... as Mexcentric as I am... I would tell you the only real biscuit I've had outside of Mexico (where there is long term tradition of making French style bisquets) is in Hawaii.... where they call them Scones!

[c oliver]

Hi "Eat"
So tell me: what is that biscuit like? English-type scones I would never consider a biscuit but when you mix "Mexcentric" and "French" and "Hawaii" I wouldn't have a clue what that kind of biscuit would be. But it sure sounds interesting :)

[Eat_Nopal]

Well... they are the shape of a biscuit... and they have a light honey glaze over the exterior... typically you buy them at Panaderias (as oppossed to having them at a restaurant joint)... and the texture is a bit more crumbly & dense than a Southern biscuit.

I used to think English scones were the crappy, dry stuff they sell at Starbucks and other coffee shops until I was pointed to a good Wine Country version of the real deal... and learned they are relatively moist & softer although still crumbly.

The following image is the closest I could find for a Bisquete (although they rarely have dried fruit interspersed).

http://www.naturalinea.com/newsItem.a...

Where my parents are from... municipio Union de San Antonio in the highlands of Jalisco they traditionally make a couple of breads that are similar to Southern Biscuits called Gordas de Acero... they can be made with either Wheat or Corn flour and usually have Natas (milk skins), Whey Milk or Buttermilk in them, and they are cooked over fire in an Iron "oven" that you put hot charcoal on the top as well... and they are the diameter of a pancake and height of a Biscuit... but these aren't very common in other parts of the country.

[Eat_Nopal]

Actually... here is a more representative Bisquet (and made with Lard as they should be!):

http://www.losportales.com.mx/proddet...

[PattiCakes]

Isn't it interesting how food connects us all in one way or another? Your ravioli's are my pierogies, are her steamed wontons, are his tamales........ Scones, bisquits, bisquets? Sushi in Mexico, tortilla soup in Philly, fried wontons in Minneapolis. I love it!

[c oliver]

PattiCakes, I LOVE your comment. This is a great thread and totally points out what you say.

[c oliver]

That definitely LOOKS like my kinda biscuit but, like you say, sweeter.

[Eat_Nopal]

Yeah.. I think the Biscuit / Bisquet originates in France and then evolves in regional variations in the U.S. south (via the Acadians) and Eastern Mexico (via the Barcelonettes).

[DiveFan]

I'm skeptical about the French 'origin' of southern style biscuits. The first European settlers in the southeast US were mostly from the U.K. No doubt the big wave of Scots-Irish immigrants that blanketed the interior South brought their soda bread recipes with them. Could be there was some French creole influence at some point, but the traditional recipes (Irish, French, Southern US) are different enough from each other that I'd call ours a local creation.

BTW your (linked) bisquet pictures look remarkably like the ones available at most panaderias in LA. They have a glaze and texture very different than Southern biscuits, good in a different way.

I agree about Philippe's biscuits - they are darn good Southern style :-) biscuits.

Viva la difference!

[Eat_Nopal]

Yes... I am not saying the Southern biscuit isn't its own thing... I am almost 100% sure that the name is derived from the French. What I would caution about is saying that only Southern biscuits taste right... as it has an ancestor and at least one couisin in other parts of the world.

[Eat_Nopal]

"BTW your (linked) bisquet pictures look remarkably like the ones available at most panaderias in LA. They have a glaze and texture very different than Southern biscuits, good in a different way."

They should... but outside of Panaderia La Mascota in the late 1980s... I can't think of a version in L.A. that I think is worthwhile.

[KevinB]

You have a curious sense of history. The first Europeans in the SE US were Spaniards. In 1755, approximately 11,000 Acadians from what are now the Canadian provinces of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia (and bits of Maine) were forcibly expelled, and many of those went to Louisiana, creating the "cajun" culture. New Orleans itself was founded by the French in 1718, ceded to Spain, returned to France briefly, and then sold to the US as part of the Louisiana purchase. I'd say the French had more influence on the culinary culture than the Scots or Irish, neither of whom were known for rarefied food.

[mpjmph]

LA isn't really the Southeast, it's more deep South or gulf region. I think the when Divefan said Southeast he was referring to VA/NC/SC/GA, at least that's the region I think of as Southeastern (also "Colonial South). The VA/NC/SC/GA region was influenced more by England/Ireland/Scotland than any other European region. The next greatest influence is probably West Africa.

[kare_raisu]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huguenot#North_America

http://www.ricehope.com/history/Carol...

[mpjmph]

Yes, there were Huguenots in the Southeastern region. They primarily settled in the James River region of VA and the Charleston area in SC. There is some French influence on Southeastern food/culture, and I don't doubt that the word biscuit comes from the French word bisquet, but I wouldn't say that the food/culture of VA/NC/SC/GA is heavily influence by the French. When I think over the foods that I learned to cook from my grandmother, and the foods that I most strongly associate with the Southern Atlantic states, it's mostly foods that use cooking methods from the UK (lots of boiling) and ingredients from Africa, very little sauce, mostly seasoned with cured meat. Most distinctly Southern vegetables are African in origin, brought to N. America by slaves.

There is also a strong Moravian presence in the South, especially in Central NC, but I would say that Southern food/culture has strong Czech influences either.

[Eat_Nopal]

But it seems the French & Dutch pastry / baking traditions were extremely influential. This is not to say that most people were of French or Dutch extraction just that the quality of their baked goods was so high that it ended up being disproportionately influential.

[Passadumkeg]

The Scots, due to climate and soil. cooked mainly w/ oats and barley. Scottish oatmeal, hagus, barley cakes and of course Scotch whiskey. Not biscuits.

[kare_raisu]

French Hugenot presence is well recorded in the colonial history of the Carolinas and Georgia.

[Passadumkeg]

Jews too, maybe influenced by the bagel!

[DiveFan]

The links about Huguenots support what I should have articulated better. Being mostly poor farmers in search of land, Scots-Irish immigrants tended to settle away from coastal cities in sparsely populated areas of the Interior.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch-I...
Due to superior communication, cross cultural (biscuit :) influences would happen faster along the coast where most of the original French and Spanish settlements were. If this biscuit style moved inland from the coast, that would sure point to African plantation cooks as a common factor.
BTW where did the wheat flour come from, prior to 1803?

Very interesting subject, but way OT.
When CKE bought Hardees, they totally destroyed a decent fast food biscuit. Carl's Jr doesn't even serve one. Grrrrrrrrrr.

[Eat_Nopal]

Just consider that many American cooking traditions aren't extensively rooted for much more than 120 years... I was surprised to learn that Pit BBQ was unknown throughout MANY if not MOST southern towns until freed slaves started BBQ restaurants in the LATE 1800's. Biscuits could also follow this pattern? Maybe they only become part of the standard Southern tradition after the railroads were well developed?

[paulj]

Did southern style biscuits exist before commercial production of baking soda and baking powder in the 1800's? The same question arises with Irish soda bread and Scottish scones. For another thread I looked up scones, and found that the word can be traced back to 1500, but those were probably dense oat cakes. I recall reading that baking soda could be extracted from wood ashes, but home based processes produced an impure, weak product with a harsh taste, so pre-Arm-and-Hammer raised biscuits would have been an inferior product.

Is the word 'biscuit' more French or Italian ('twice baked'). Why is it used so differently in British English (the American cookie)? That difference in usage points to a post-Revolutionary war development.

Beaten biscuits are older than the baking powder biscuits, and more akin to hardtack / ships biscuits / pilot bread , etc. Pilot bread hangs on in places with a maritime past (New England, Alaska, Hawaii).

Available grain and flour appears to influence the choice of bread. Yeast breads work best with high protein wheat. An article on soda bread claimed that Irish grains were more suitable for non-yeast breads. The same might be said for softer Southern-US wheats.

In contrast, sour-dough is associated with the western migration (e.g. San Francisco and Alaska). Is that a result of available wheat, or conditions that favor a consistent culture of yeast. The American South may be too hot too maintain a long term sour-dough culture (without refrigeration).

[paulj]

Another issue when trying to trace the history of biscuits, scones and other breads, is how were they baked. While bakers have had ovens for along time, home ovens are a newer invention. Colonial cooking was mostly done using an open hearth, with pots set before or over the fire. So things like griddle cakes would have been common. Some breads were baked on boards set at an angle before the fire. The dutch oven with coals above as well as below produces conditions closer to what we think of as an oven. But I suspect most home baking had to await the cast iron wood fired stove, some time in the 19th century.

[hill food]

whoa, you have a book on the make there...

[Caroline1]

Actually, "home baking" has been accomplished for millennia by simply taking your unbaked bread (or whatever) to the village baker and having him bake it for you. It's still a common practice in many parts of the world today. Blessed is the village with more than one baker! '-)

Oh, and few bakers have only one oven in their yard. Wood fired beehive ovens are fantastic! Absolutely incredible bread, whether you make the dough or the baker does .

[soupkitten]

PaulJ has hit on it-- despite the diverse national and cultural origins of american bakers, it was the introduction of commercial baking soda and baking powder in the 1800s that had such a huge & widespread impact on american-style biscuits and other quick breads. greg patent has done some fascinating scholarship on the historical recipes & the impact on baking powder and soda, which he referred to as an early "convenience product." very readable in his book "american baking (great recipes too).

[Bill Hunt]

I tend to think of them as "crumbly little biscuits," until they are dipped into clotted cream. At that moment, they take on a real identity all their own.

Even on United Airlines, these are great, just before touchdown at LHR at 5:30AM GMT.

Hunt

[Xacinta]

My scones are triangular because my family recipe calls for shaping the dough into a round 8 inch disk and then slicing it into 6...like a pizza. I would never confuse them with bisquets, besides they have currants or raising and however salty in the inside they are covered with sugar....by the way, we once made beaten bisquets, you have to beat the dough for 30 min, it was woth it!

[Xacinta]

. I live in Mexico and i used to get very mad when i watched "mexican" recipes in the us, none of it looked real. Tortilla soup is just something else in the us, nothing close to what we have in Mexico, Ceasar salad is very different in the US too, which by the way, was created in Tijuana by my friend´.s grandfather... But then i realized that here in Mexico we do just the same, we incorporate our ingredients to foreign food, just visit a sushi place in any Mexican city and you´d be amazed, we have maki rolls with any type od chili, huitlacoche, avocado, plantain,...and these dishes are now beginging to be ofered in Japan. Nachos is an American invention, but we like them in Mexico and we consume them. ....Most of the people who cross the border do it fo economic reasons, they come from poor social classes so the food they know is simple, most of the time very good, but they haven´t eaten huitlacoche, huauzontles, dorado from the gulf, queso relleno, xoconoztle, flor de calabaza....

[Chuckles the Clone]

The notion of finding huitlacoche inside my maki roll is at the same time both fascinating and very, very frightening.

[Xacinta]

there´s a mexican maki call itakate. (In náhuatl itacate means lunch...) one of the ingredients is chile de arbol....Before globalization, when there were no Burger Kings and Subways all over Mexico, our hamburgers included a Margarita bun, no sesame seeds but it has a very different texture, it is more elastic, than the American hamburger bunrefried beans, jalapeños or chiles toreados.....Mexican hot dogs disregard the sausage, they usually use the cheapest, and put all the attention on the toppings. The stands around the Universidad de Sonora, Unison, in Hermosillo, offer picadillo, carne con chile, fried potatoes, chiles toreados, chiles güeros, beans (refried and bola) mushrooms, cheese....they use a special bun.

[Eat_Nopal]

"Before globalization, when there were no Burger Kings and Subways all over Mexico, our hamburgers included a Margarita bun, no sesame seeds but it has a very different texture, it is more elastic, than the American hamburger bunrefried beans, jalapeños or chiles toreados....."

Careful with generalizations... burgers have always been very popular for many decades throughout the Tlanepantla & Naucalpan suburbs... I never saw a burger that had refried beans... and not all were served on Bimbo buns (which by the way are pretty much the same as the classic American buns)... burgers were often served in Pan Cemita, Bolillo or Pan de Caja... with many interesting variations.... Bacon Wrapped Patty, Chorizo in the Patty, Soy sauce in the Patty, Jerez Wine in the Patty, toppings included Guacamole, Mole Rojo etc., etc.,

[Xacinta]

i have never seen those burgers in Mexico and i have lived here all my life, a burger with pan de caja, pan cemita??? jeréz??? Mole! where in Tlalne?

[Eat_Nopal]

You need to get around.... there is a weeknight Tianguis in Colonia Tlalnemex near Bugambilia & Nardo.... there is another weeknight Tianguis on Toluca near the Anillo Periferico... and then there are a number of hamburger joints near Politechnico as well the ISSTE campus.

And over in Naucalpan on San Luis & Calzada Molinito near the Rosticeria there are a couple of great Hamburger & Pizza joints putting out VERY Mexicanized stuff.

[Jen76]

Frozen custard. Nothing seems to come close to Kopp's back "home" in Milwaukee. Nor, for that matter, do knock-off butter burgers I've had here.

[PattiCakes]

I remember when my sister moved to Minnesota. Her husband was Italian (Eye-talian, in Minnesotan), so that was a part of her cooking repetoire. She discovered that her neighbors made their lasagna with cottage cheese. Riccota? what's that? They also love fried wontons with a cottage cheese filling.

I've had "real" Buffalo wings in Buffalo, but I can also appreciate wings done with other types of sauces and in different ways. No, they aren't Buffalo Wings, but they are tasty. In the instance of the Buffalo Wing, the cook at the Anchor Bar didn't just invent a new dish, she used something that people used to throw away (or use in stock) in a completely different way. Now there are ton of variations on the chicken-wing-as-food concept, but only one Buffalo Wing.

[soupkitten]

nope, it's a cream cheese filling in the fried wontons in mn, *never* cottage cheese. we used to fill&fold 'em by the bus-tub full during the slow afternoon shifts. it's a pared-down version of "cheese rangoon" etc. and indigenous to here, as near as we can tell, discussed at length on a couple of our local threads.

[PattiCakes]

Thanks for the correction. I knew that -- my brain was thinking "cream", but by fingers typed "cottage". Actually they were pretty good., just not what I was used to as being "chinese food", which of couse is probably not even close to REAL Chinese food. It's kind of like a game of whispering down the lane with ethnic foods......

[soupkitten]

oh the cream cheese wontons are SO ridiculously & laughably *not* authentic to any "real" chinese cuisine, obviously!!! LOL ;-)

but. . . they are strangely addictive, the crispy, hot fried wonton, the gooey, melted, creamy cheese, usually dipped in a too-sweet dipping sauce, sometimes accompanied by a nice rice vinegar dressed carrot & daikon salad. . . sometimes, only CCWs will do-- the minnesotan chinese-american contribution to greasy, junky street food, if you will! many local variations/add ins to the cream cheese exist, establishments riff on CCWs just as they do the area's signature hamburger-- the "jucy lucy." i am not sure where CCWs originated (i'd be interested to know). my hunch is that it was either the work of leann chin, or an anonymous cook at the nankin (my former employer). here's both on the same page:

http://www.mnhs.org/events/ChineseAme...

[PattiCakes]

See, that's why I think food is such a great thing. Here you have a "Chinese" concept that was bastardized into something it was never meant to be but which tickled the tastebuds of another segment of the population. Who cares if it's not really "Chinese"? It tastes good. I think we just get entirely too up tight about whether or not a particular dish is legit or righteous sometimes.

[TampaAurora]

A girl at work was just talking about her Midwestern-lasagna with cottage cheese instead of ricotta. Apparently, she didn't know of the ricotta type until moving to Florida because that's how mom made it back home.

[meatn3]

I've seen a number of regional cookbooks from the '60's & '70's using cottage cheese for lasagna. We forget how unavailable many foods were a short time ago, ricotta being one of them...The variety most regions have access to has increased dramatically!

[Sam Fujisaka]

As a cook (like most of us), I find the idea of cottage cheese lasagna to be perfectly sound and something I would gladly try were cottage cheese available here.

[meatn3]

Many of us stateside forget how fortunate we are to have such an abundance to choose from...your posts are often a good reminder of how something relatively common here is a rarity in many places.

[lulubelle]

We can't often get cottage or ricotta cheeses here, so I have learned to make ricotta at home. It's easy and much better than store bought.

[Bill Hunt]

Even growing up in a non-traditional Italian area, it was always Ricotta. I cannot imagine anything substituting.

Now, this was in the '50s & '60s, so maybe I missed an epoch, or two. Even when French wife did lasagna (in the '70s), she would not hear of anything but Ricotta.

Maybe that's why we always order about 20 lbs. of cheeses from Italy.

Hunt

[Bill Hunt]

Yes. I see it with takes on Southern Cuisine. Now, I know that "Southern" incorporates a lot of culinary territory, but hey, deep-fried catfish! How can you get THAT wrong? Same for most preparations of "greens." Just taking out a pack of Bird's Eye and heating it, is not Southern "greens." I find that too many "corporate kitchens," just don't get these things right. Maybe it's the need to use some "healthy" oil and no lard. Same thing for "healthy" Mexican fare, that tastes like cardboard - rather tastless cardoboard at that.

I have had Philly "cheesesteaks" right off of Walnut St, but just don't get them. That has nothing to do with the prep, or the spots, that I have tasted them, only MY personal tastes. However, I do see them everywhere and *imagine* that they are bleak and not even close to the "real" thing. Do not take this as any negative reflection on the beloved Philly Cheesesteaks. Just remember that I'm one of "them Rebels," who did not grow up with this delicacy.

I think that most "regional cuisine" cooked by corporate kitchens elsewhere misses in most cases.

Does anyone remember "Cajun Blackened Anything?" Chef Paul Prudhomme hit on something decades ago, but then the corp. kitchens got hold of it. The rest was a culinary horror flick and a bad one.

Hunt

[mattyjaco]

I second the Buffalo wings, have seen them smothered in minced garlic, baked, made with pinapple hot sauce, boneless, breaded and many other unspeakable things... its not that hard to deep fry some wings and shake them in frank's red hot and butter. ps its beef on weck not weke

[Catskillgirl]

Thanks for a terrible food memory. I grew up near Buffalo and loved wings. Moved to NYC, where wings were finally becoming "standardized" (to Buffalo standards, that is) in the late 70's. Enjoyed wings just about all of my adult life. In 2000 we moved 90 miles NW of NYC - I ordered wings at a pizza place without a second thought. OMG they were awful - "smothered in minced garlic" as you said above. Yuck. I began to make my own, and yes, they are really simple to make at home. I don't even have a deep fryer!

Thanks for that unpleasant memory. :-)

[MakingSense]

Cajuns hated Prudhomme for that Blackened Redfish recipe. A real tourist dish.
First, everyone was horrified that he would do that with a good cast iron skillet. It ruined the seasoning.
Then, the popularity of that dish caused the redfish to be over-fished to near extinction. Wildlife and Fisheries banned even sport fishing of it for several years. It took that long for it to recover. It's a real local favorite for sport fishing and for eating.
Yes, that entire episode is a nightmare.
"Blackened," aka burned, food still shows up on menus and it's just heinous.

[James Cristinian]

Sport fishing for redfish was never banned In Texas and I doubt it was in Louisiana where they have more liberal size and possession limits. What was and still is banned is commercial netting for redfish and speckled trout in Texas, and I know there are restrictions in Louisisana if not an outright ban. The species have rebounded spectacularlly, yet and redfish served in a restaraunt will be the inferior farm raised.I've made blackened redfish from fish that I caught, it was quite good, but was a number of years ago. What is done down here is redfish on the half shell. The fish is filleted leaving the skin a scales on and is grilled on an open fire skin side down, turned over, repeat, serve with lemon butter. yumm.

[Bill Hunt]

Growing up in the MS Gulf South, I was astounded when trying to order speckled trout in NOLA some years ago. I was told that it was "out of season." Out of season? How could this be? We caught "specks" all year long, though more often in the Fall/Winter. How could this fish be "out of season." Things had changed. Same for redfish. As a kid, I caught rat-reds most of the year, and bull-reds in the Autumn and Winter. They too were now relegated to a season.

My, how things had changed, Chef Paul not withstanding.

Hunt

[James Cristinian]

I ordered a special of speckled trout at a restaurant in Galveston last winter and asked the waiter where it was from. He assured me it was caught locally, but having known better I did not press the issue. It could have been from Louisiana, but I suspect Mexico, as that is where some red snapper comes from when unavailable locally. It is illegal to net fish here, also to resell fish caught by sportsmen, much to the chagrin of one of the gentlemen from whom I buy shrimp in Houston. He's always trying to get me to sell him some fresh specks, nothing finer. Anyway, the trout in Galveston was a bit past it's prime, but still edible. It was at a place named Clary's, on a canal on the bay. They must have taken alot of water during Ike, and I hope they can re-open. I'm quite fond of it, as are many locals.

[rubinow]

BBQ, but specifically Kansas City BBQ.

KC Masterpiece doesn't really represent KC BBQ at all. Here's an article about that: http://bonbonvoyages.com/kansas-citys...

[DiveFan]

At least Cali now has some decent Texas or NC style BBQ places.

When I was growing up, BBQ was almost always very thinly sliced well done anonymous 'beef' covered with anonymous sweet tomato/molasses 'sauce' - yuck! Fortunately except for some chains *cough*Arbys*cough* it is dying out.

I'm not sure what 'California cuisine' is, but just adding steamed veggies to anything is NOT it!

[Eat_Nopal]

I think the best question is... what regional foods do people just do right? 99.9% of Mexican cuisine in the U.S. is an abomination.

[bucksguy14]

I once worked with a guy from Texas that told me if you ordered Mexican food in anything other than a "border" state, you were getting s***, not food. He firmly believed that only states that bordered Mexico offered truly Mexican cooking, anything else was, in his word, "garbage".

[Eat_Nopal]

Given that I think much of the offering in Texas, Arizona & California is garbage... I don't know that there is all that much to that theory. There are pockets of good Mexican food... but it is certainly in the minority. The pockets usually correspond to recent immigrant communities... but not a guarantee. Places like Texas & California often have such a deep tradition of s*** abominations of Mexican cuisine (because of the long history) that new immigrants come in and they have to adopt the "Real Mexican" that already exists there and can't bring in their regional cookign. Sometimes in place that didn't have as much Mexican immigrants until the last decade or so... its easier to find some good Mexican cooking because there are no existing expectations for all the Tex-Mex crap.

In my humble opinion... the best Mexican cuisine in the U.S. is to be found in the Mex 1st gen immigrant neighborhoods of Chicago, L.A., and San Diego. All three places have pretty good ingredient availability and many authentic restaurants.

[Eat_Nopal]

But I should not... even in Chicago, L.A. & San Diego... I am only talking about maybe 1% of the Mex restaurants offer dining that is comparable to what you find in Mexico.. lets make that REAL clear. Places with things like Scallop Tacos, Duck in Mole Verde, Catfish Stew, Huazontle Fritters, Nopales Salads etc., are very much in the minority.

[James Cristinian]

I don't know that there is a "real Mexican" cuisine. The majority of Mexiacans are very poor and have no access to things like scallops or duck. All the times I've been to Mexico, not the resorts, I'm talking about taking the train and bus across the country, real Mexicans, that is the majority, seemed to eat rice, beans, tortillas, and grilled meats. Oh, and there are no first genereation Mexicans in Houston or San Antonio? The city of Houston is full of first generation Mexicans, Salvadorans, Hondurans, Vietnamese and others, as well as originals freshly arrived from their native countries.They are not forces to adopt to Tex-Mex crap or whatever, they simply open their own. Where I live in Houston, there are Mexican restaurants side by side with native Korean restaurants. As far as Tex-Mex being garbage, its is good comfort food when done right for genereations of Texans and Mexican Americans who are also Texans, no different than KC barbecue or Chicago pizza. By the way, I married a first generation Mexican. Just some obeservations.

[flourgirl]

Thank you for posting this. I wanted to say something similar but didn't feel like I had the "chops" to back it up. But really, it should be pretty obvious that most mexicans aren't cooking the food that Eat Nopal is describing.

And I completely agree with your comments about Tex-Mex too. I find comments about it being an abomination to be unbearably snobby and judgmental. It IS delicious when done right and I feel no shame in enjoying this kind of food.

[Passadumkeg]

Gmme some warm chile con queso dip w/ fresh made tortilla chips followed by some tacos (al pastor, tripas and lingua) all washed down with a Shiner Bock. Texas, the way life could be.

[Eat_Nopal]

There are a few truths about Mexico's gastronomic culture:

1) It is generally better as you go South... with some exceptions.

2) Its always annoying when people go on a Missionary trip to some struggling shantytown on the border and generalize that all of Mexico is like that.

3) Tex-Mex & Cal-Mex generally comprises a Great Depression era interpretation of a very narrow base of recipes from Sonora & Chihuahua. Tex-Mex is generally equivalent to the weakest / least interesting aspects of Chihuahuan cuisine... and Chihuahua is generally one of the weakest / least interesting culinary states in Mexico.

But that is only a generalization... certainly people bragging about Chihuahuan cheeses, Beef, Apple Pie, Sweets etc., are not mistaken... there is some wonderfully tasting dishes there... you just don't have the variety, or the technical complexity & sophistication you might find in say Oaxaca.

This post illustrates it beautifully: http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/564794

[streetgourmetla]

Agreeing with EatNopal
Things like scallop tacos are quite common and cheap in the areas where the catch resides, like Sinaloa.Duck preparations are also relatively inexpensive in the areas where ducks are raised.I know roadside shacks in places Mexico city that serve duck, rabbit, bone marrow stew,ant eggs, etc. cheap with haute preparations.

I can get callo tacos(scallop) in TJ for $2 at a taqueria frequented entirely by working class locals.There is a difference between the callos for "callo de hacha" or sashimi de callo and the kind found in say a "taco gobernador" with callos.

"All the times I've been to Mexico, not the resorts, I'm talking about taking the train and bus across the country, real Mexicans, that is the majority, seemed to eat rice, beans, tortillas, and grilled meats"

This seems to say that all Mexicans are poor, and only Americans eating haute cuisine are at resorts.Resort food is hardly ever Mexican or even Mexican "alta cocina." It usually wreaks.The perception that Mexicans eat only beans, rice, and grilled meats is first propagated by lame Mexican-American restaurants, and reinforced by mundane and clueless travelers.

I'm Mexican(pocho, if you will, my family hails from Aguascalientes), and I've traveled by all means within 17 states in Mexico.This doesn't necessarily qualify any of us, what Mexican ties or blood we have, it's a commitment to understanding the cuisine, learning its history, and knowing its place in that culture.The novice-"what's that,looks interesting?" intermediate-"that's chiles in nogada" expert-"chiles en nogada was created by nuns for Emperor Iturbide and the colors.............

Mexicans coming to the US are cheap labor at present, farmers,gardeners, housekeepers,etc. from a small number of states, maybe 3.EatNopal would know this.Of course they don't bring rich culinary tradition with them. As if US plumbers, construction workers,and cable installers could open authentic American restaurants in Mexico and provide the clientele.

Mexicans of all generations have lost their traditions here as restauranteurs and diners.My first generation grandparents in Stockton, CA and all their peers eat combo plates!

The handful of good Mexican restaurants in the US are still in touch with the land.It's my favorite Sinaloan marisquero in LA, where his mother-in-law brings the shrimp and fish from Mazatlan.He refuses to serve many dishes that would be expensive here by substituting with cheaper ingredients, he just using his knowledge and skill to provide a good menu executed with excellence.He can still name stands and restaurants that current throughout Sinaloa, and he goes there to eat and study to stay abreast of practices and dishes.As an example.Another place in LA made an aguachile with cheap shrimp, not Mexican white shrimp;tasted like hell.Another put imitation crab on my tostada mixta,que lastima.

The "real" Mexicans that have stayed behind represent a much broader economic group than many would think.If they can't afford Patzcuaro style duck at the fancy restaurant in Michoacan, then I bet they know a specialty stand or fonda that does a more rustic version just as good, maybe better.When I come across these affordable treasures, I usually see "real" Mexicans of all stripes.

99% of US Mexican restaurants are devoid of tradition, integrity, or any depth.The 1% that are exceptional are mere gateways.Go to Chichen Itza in LA and be versed in a mere sliver of what Yucatan has to offer.When you arrive you will have a good starting point to look for the extensions of that cuisine if you are sharp.If not, you will go around like Johnny Depp in "Once Upon a Time in Mexico", ordering "puerco pibil"(cochinita) at every restaurant.

I think this probably holds true for all cuisines that are transplanted, like American restaurants abroad.There's a New Orleans joint that just opened in TJ,yikes! Cajun and creole in LA, blah!

[streetgourmetla]

Oh, of course this doesn't stop me from eating at all kinds of restaurants from all parts of the world here in LA, including Mexican and Tex-Mex!Just found a Tex-Mex recently that I enjoy.Grilled meats, now there I'm a unrepetant snob.The only carne asada I ever order is in Sonora, Coahuila,Sinaloa,Chihuahua, or Nuevo Leon;also at places throughout Mexico serving Sonoran beef.There's my food that they just don't get right here in the US.Wrong cut, wrong beef, just wrong!

[flourgirl]

Edit: This was supposed to be in reply to eat_nopal

I think the point was more that there is a difference between mexican "cuisine" and everyday food. I am certainly aware that not everybody in Mexico is poor, but then, neither am I and I don't eat haute cuisine every day... if you do, more power to you.

I also agree that if a Mexican restaurant is holding itself out as an authentic respresention of real Mexican cuisine and the menu lists the usual Tex-Mex fare, then it is not Mexican cuisine (you know, it is not an absolute requirement to have traveled to Mexico to be aware of Mexican Cuisine -there's these new-fangled things called...books.)

And it is snobby to say that Tex-Mex is all an abomination. If you don't like it, that's fine for you, but it can be terrific in it's own right.

[Eat_Nopal]

I think what you are missing is that in some parts of Mexico items that abroad would be considered haute, are just street food. For example, Tostadas de Erizo / Sea Urchin Roe tostadas... in Ensenada they are sold by a street vendor to hungry blue collar workers. Or Abulone on the shell... in some parts of Baja the dive bars will give them to you complimentary if you buy a large bottle of beer. These are two dishes that in Manhattan or San Francisco would cost $$$.

And what you are really missing... at least what I am trying to point out... is that in Mexico you have people procuring great, local ingredients that give each region a true identity.. I have an uncle who made a small fortune selling sandwiches at his little Mexico 70 corner store in Colonia La Loma Tlanemex (Tlanepantla, Mexico City)... he would get his ham & head cheese from an Chiapas migrant who cured it all himself, he would make his own Chiles en Escabeche and get up at 4AM everyday to get on the Subway to Mercado de La Merced for the best avocados & tomatoes at the best prices... then make a second trip for several boxes of fresh baked sanwich bread at the Bimbo outlet... and make a third trip to a Panaderia for fresh baked bolillos. My the time the neighborhood factory had its first lunch shift he was ready to dispense hundreds of delectable sandwiches in small window of time.

Compare that to your typical Tex-Mex operation with canned yellow "cheese", institutional lard, 1 pot of beans, 1 pot of rice etc., its not even about the price points of the food... its about superior (if modest) ingredients... like fresh ground dried corn for tortillas, recent harvest heirloom beans, fresh veggies from the Almarcigo etc., that is what generally seperates mainland Mexican dining from Tex-Mex.

[streetgourmetla]

I call that stand in Ensenada the Water Grill sobre ruedas.Matter of fact, the raw seafood options at the Ensenada stand blows the Water Grill's raw seafood out of the water.Tostada de herizo, de bacalao, abulon, ostion huarache,ceviche de pescado, 10 hand crafted salsas, chocolates, and more.I thought of turning myself into the police for paying so little.And, they've been there for decades.These places are in every city.

Not only that, Tex-Mex only draws from a fraction of the northern Mexico palate of dishes, less ingredients, less technique,and poor ingredients.A bowl of excellent Tex-Mex cocido doesn't even touch a pedestrian Sonoran, Chiapan, or Durangan cocido.

[Eat_Nopal]

The post below about MD Crab Cakes just made me crave the typical Tampico style Crab and/or Shrimp Cakes... no breading... just flesh mixed with diced onions, fresh chiles, cilantro & beat eggs.... and how bouts some Bocoles topped with Mullet Roe!

[susancinsf]

Have you had that abalone recently? My experience is that the cost of seafood in Mexico is rising quite a bit , perhaps due to drastically reduced populations in the Sea of Cortez and other fishing areas. Indeed, I believe the commercial fisheries for wild abalone in Mexico have basically tanked. They are farming abalone in Mexico, but I find it hard to believe that the farmed stuff would be cheap enough to distribute as a giveaway in bars; farming is fairly expensive (takes a long while for those little guys to grow).

My Mexican colleagues tell me that agribusiness is taking over in Mexico in much the same way that it is/has in the US, and if so, procuring those great ingredients at reasonable prices may become a fond memory, particularly in certain regions. I really wonder if your uncle could do the same thing today that he did to build his fortunes (and how many years ago was that?).

[streetgourmetla]

Hey Susaninsf.I just had abalone the other day from a carreta in TJ.It was part of my delicious tostada mixta.There's a stand in ensenada that does ceviche de abulon, not expensive at all.The only thing that seems to be expensive right now are callos, but still, the price is very reasonable compared to the US.

Seafood places in LA, Mexican seafood places, serve imitation abalone, and will charge an arm and a leg for a callo de hacha, most places not serving it at all due to its price putting off the Mexican clientele.But, the callos for callo de hacha are higher quality than the ones used in a tacos gobernador, which is so accessible to the proletariat.

Mexico does have corporations yes, and agrobusiness, but all you need to do is go to the mercados to see that they don't dominate.Even in TJ, most people get their tortillas from a local tortilleria, and in the Valle de Guadalupe their are small farmers all over, selling their produce at roadside stands, which makes it into restaurants and street stands alike.Take a look a field corn in Mexico and tell me if agrobusiness could do such a beautiful mess.Not a dicernible row in sight, and surrounded by nopales:)

[Eat_Nopal]

Susan... for now... and I imagine for at least a couple of decades... and perhaps forever (if the U.S. collapses & Mexico goes bust with it).... the biggest cost components in Mexican ingredients are.... distribution & marketing. Even with agribusiness... take one of Mexico's most intense agri-industries... Tequila. I have relatives & friends of my parents that grow many hectares of Maguey in the highland's of Jalisco (unfortunately selling a significant portion of their crop for that Patron crap)... but anyway... quality local, veeery artisinal, Tequilas sold by the jug or barrel - some terrible... some incredible... sell for nothing... even in the cantinas you can get a bottle for $150 pesos (and it comes with free artisinal Tostadas topped with various Encurtidos)... while the acceptable, Blue Agave stuff we get in the States starts at about $30/bottle... with most of the better Tequilas $60 and over.

[James Cristinian]

What would you suggest in the $30-$60 plus range in the U.S.? I like El Tosoro and Cazadorez. My wife likes Hornitos. Your opinion please, be brutal if necessary. She won't read this and I can take it.

[Eat_Nopal]

Cazadorez & Hornitos are both good top shelf mixing tequilas. Hornitos is one of the best values for that perhaps... but be careful because when Agave gets expensive they have reformulated to 51%+... currently its 100% Blue Agave.

El Tesoro is an okay blended Tequila but doesn't have any special terroir characteristics. I like:

1948 Azahares de Jalisco distilled by Casa Tequilera de Arandas using all highland agave

33 distilled by Tequila Selecto de Amatitlan

3 Fusiles distilled by Tequilera Newton e Hijos

Adrenalina distilled by Leticia Hermosillo Ravalero

An interesting one is Real Hacienda by Pernod Ricard distilled just outside of Mexico City

Of stuff that is more widely available in the U.S. I currently like Corzo Blanco as well as Los Danzantes aged Mezcal (not exactly tequila).

[James Cristinian]

Thank you very much. Does it say on the bottle when it's been reformulated? I would assume it does due to Mexico's strict laws on tequila. What forces cause Agave to be expensive? Is it a poor harvest due to weather or other factors? Does the value of the peso or other economic matters have an impact?

[Eat_Nopal]

If the bottle says its Tequila then it means it has at least 51% Blue Agave Tequila grown in the Tequila NOMs.

If it says its 100% Blue Agave Tequila.... then its the good stuff. Hornitos never advertised their change in formulation as far as I am aware. It was my first sipping Tequila back when I was 16 or 17 and starting to appreciate fine spirits. I remember it was in the late 90's that it was no longer 100% Tequila... and recently I looked at a bottle and it is again.

Around the late 90's is when fine Tequila took off. It replaced Scotch & Cognac as Mexico's most consumed premium spirit... and went from being a Mexican thing to do... to being the thing to do... chic bars serving nothing but Tequila started to sprout in the wealthiest cities... at the same time it was successfully marketed as a fine drink to International markets... and in addition, the major labels started hoarding some of the best production to create super duper premium aged products etc.,

It took off so fast that production couldn't keep up (it takes 7 to 10 years to mature an Agave plant for production)... eventually the government opened up the DO to include areas outside of the valleys of Tequila, Jalisco... and that is when we started seeing production in the Highlands as wall as near Puerto Vallarta... and even outside of the state of Jalisco.

[bbqboy]

EN, does the agave from different areas taste different, as in grapes and wine?
Who knew this thread would turn into a tequila instruction course?
Cool.

[Eat_Nopal]

Oh yeah without a doubt.

> Varietals / Cultivars.... Tequila refers specifically to Webber Blue Agave but within Mexico you will find dozens of widely distilled cultivars of Agave... the fruit used in Mezcal is actually different than what is used in Tequila, Sotol & others.

> Terroir... even within the same Cultivar you certainly have dramatic differences in Terroir between say the Tequila valleys (about 4000 ft above sea level), the Highlands (7000 ft above sea level), the Coastal DOs near Puerto Vallarta (1000 to 2000 ft above sea level)...

> Aside from Climate then you have soil... one of the definitive elements of Tequilas from Arandas is the iron rich red clay soils near there.... and then you throw in Water.

My first lesson in Terroir... I was 13 years old, visiting the Rancho my mom grew up in for the first time... and I was heading out with my couisins to walk a couple dozen cows to pasture at a lot about 4 miles away... and their dad (my mom's uncle)... gives me a map he had just drawn and spends then next 20 minutes describing all the situation of all the wells that might encounter... the water with the purpleish hue tastes best... and I can find at the following 3 wells... but he has a feud with the Reynoso's over the mountain... so I should probably avoid their well... it will take me 1 kilometer out of my way but his friend has a very good well near adjacent to flour mill and if I really don't care I can drink from his brother's well, its on our way, but not as tastey... its too salty etc., etc.,

You can then imagine why those of us that know Tequila appreciate the truly local stuff... that and the fact that uncut Tequila goes anywhere from 70 proof to 150 proof... and if aged or otherwise tempered properly its inherently more satyisfying than the standardized 80 proof formulations you get from the big producers.

[streetgourmetla]

Hello James.EatNopal is right about that Adrenalina. I just had it at the Expo Tequila in TJ thought it to be a great value and a real Mexican style tequila, lots of heat as well as flavor.The same comapany that puts out Adrenalina also produces Alma de Mujer, and Cava de Oro, more smooth styles, also very good.

EN speaks the gospel, don't do anything with Cazadores but throw it in a cocktail.Not for shooting, but perfect for a nice paloma.Hornitos, too.

Anything from Arandas rocks, pretty much without exception.Terroir!!!

Try "Aha!Toro" anejo which is available in the US and amazing for the price.I also recommend Cofradia, Don Eduardo, and Don Valente anejos, all less than El Tesoro.Bracero is a 100% agave anejo under $25 and Pueblo Viejo is another inexpensive reposado that will blow you away.Don Alvaro anejo has interesting flavors that hint at a mezcal like smokiness. El Tesoro is 100% agave, it's smooth and very pleasurable, but many others mentioned by EN and here have many beautiiful surprises for less $$.Tapatio blanco is amazing, again with smokiness and soul.

[James Cristinian]

Thank-you for sharing your knowledge, streetgourmetla and EN.

[James Cristinian]

I'm eating in a restaurant tomorrow for the first time since...Hurricane Ike. Tex-Mex it is...carnitas sound good. I was going to do seafood...had a craving for oysters rockefeller...no oysters to be had. Galveston bay oyster reefs awash in...too much saltwater and silt.

[Bill Hunt]

Thank you for pointing out what I have maintained for years, and Eat Nopal has always supported. The cuisine de Mexico is wonderfully diverse, and what finds its way to the US is often adulterated - often beyond recognition.

Too many thread on CH have focused on what we, in the US, think is "Mexican." Little, beyond the inital concept, really is.

Think mole. Which state? Which family? It is almost impossible to define "authentic" mole, as it is personal and different, even within families and cities and states.

Appreciated,

Hunt

[Anonimo]

"If they can't afford Patzcuaro style duck at the fancy restaurant in Michoacan, then I bet they know a specialty stand or fonda that does a more rustic version just as good, maybe better."

I haven't seen this dish anywhere here in Pátzcuaro, or nearby. I admit, I haven't been to every restaurant in the area, and probably won't get around to it.
I did get some luscious appetizer Tacos de Pato at El Cardenal, in Centro, México, D.F. not long ago.

[streetgourmetla]

Yeah, sometimes these dishes are not easy to find during our trips.Many times its just shear luck that you hit the jackpot.Tacos de pato are excellent, there are places in Baja where I've had duck tacos.I've been to Michoacan, but haven't had the chance yet to do any serious recon.

[Mona Williams]

When I was in cooking school, our French-chef teacher told us that there are four great cuisines in the world--French, Italian, Chinese and Mexican. But, he said, the last two are not very well known.

[tatamagouche]

Um...not very well known? Did he mean not generally known to people who don't know much about food in the first place that they're as diverse and vibrant and complex regional as French and Italian are? I don't understand.

[thew]

people often confuse what the know with what everyone knows, and what they believe with what they know

[phanmo]

Since he was a chef from France, he was probably talking about french people.
Certainly in the five years I've been here, I've never met anyone here that knows anything about chinese or mexican cuisine, except for foreigners that is. Everybody here thinks that samosas are chinese and frijoles are only available in, bizarrely, chinese grocery stores.

[tatamagouche]

Where's "here"? That's interesting about the frijoles. Any ideas why?

[Mona Williams]

I think that's what he meant. I know it was a surprise to me, at least. But that was a long time ago!

[bblonde]

I think you need to totally separate "authentic" Mexican food from "Tex-Mex." This attack on Tex Mex is silly: we still love our Chicago deep dish or NY style pizza though it is not the same kind of pizza one would find in Rome. I believe it is possible to find authentic Mexican food, although I have much more luck finding Latin restaurants. Also, there is bad Tex-Mex and good Tex-Mex. I still insist that at Tex Mex restaurants the guacamole be real, tortillas be made on-site, and the queso not look like gelatin.

[Bill Hunt]

I strongly agree. While Tex-Mex has many roots in border Mexican cuisine, it differs from many other cuisines in Mexico, and is also a blend, an amalgam of two cuisines, based on ethnicity and on geography.

Still, Tex-Mex is what I grew up with, and what I enjoy most. To declare it as "THE authentic" Mexican cuisine, would be foolish.

Hunt

[jfood]

This is a sloppy jo sandwich

http://www.seriouseats.com/2007/08/se...

The ground beef with sauce is not

[mattyjaco]

i think id rather be wrong on this one...

[jfood]

If you are ever in northern NJ give it a try. it is a true eye-opening experience. someone just needs to rename their version.

[sadiefox]

Oh yes, I grew up on the north Jersey style of sloppy joe! The BEST! My mouth is watering...

[Passadumkeg]

Just got back from visiting me mum in the hospital in New Brunswick, NJ. I stepped outside the hospital for a break and went into a deli up the street, The Istanbul, and I smiled ant thought of you jfood you ol'd dog when a saw a turkey ahd ham sloppy Joe on the munu. Decided to chow on soft shell crab sanwiches instead, but did bring back 2 Taylor Pork Rolls , several styles of herring, to begin a few.

[jfood]

Good choice P. No way jfood is ordering a Sloppy Joe from a deli named Istanbul that serves a turkey and ham joe. With that theopry running the kitchen your soft shell crab sandwich was probably a tuna melt.

Now did they fry the taylor pork before placing on the bread?

Hope your Mum feels better. The pork roll is like 1000mg of Penicillin .

[flourgirl]

I grew up hearing both of these called a "sloppy joe". But the only kind I ever ate with my family was the version you linked to. I only had the ground beef/sauce on a soft bun concoction at the homes of my friends. But I remember as a kid liking them both - a lot.

[Jen76]

That looks so good. Wish I knew how to make the russian dressing.

[KevinB]

Jen76: Don't despair - go to the Wikipedia entry, and you'll see that there are about 50 different recipes. Some suspect it first got its name because it contained caviar; like that's going to happen today! The big difference between Russian and Thousand Islands, IMHO, is Thousand Islands is sweeter and contains sweet relish and less tomato sauce. My Russian is mayo, tomato sauce, chopped capers, horseradish, and (depending on how hot the horseradish is) some hot sauce. But that's my version. I'm sure there are people here who will say it is heresy. Experiment and make it your own!

[Jen76]

Ok. I tried. Made delectable Reuben sandwiches last night, but husband opted for the Wishbone Thousand Island instead of my homemade Russian. Sigh. I liked it though!

[johnb]

IMO the main difference between 1000 Island and Russian is horseradish in the Russin but not the 1000 Island. This is important for a Reuben, because the reason Reubens are soooo good is they (when properly made) have an ideal balance of all the *five* basic flavors (ie including umami), and the basic flavor "tart" or "bitter" comes from the horseradish in the Russian dressing.

[Bill Hunt]

Reminds me of a fav. deli in Denver. I'd go in and order a "Turkey Ruben." If the "help" waited on me, I'd get my sandwich. If the owner, Mrs. Goldstien, took the order, I'd catch grief. "There is no such thing as a turkey Ruben," she'd shout at me. Her chef would take my order and suggest that she "shush." I'd get my sandwich (on sourdough, no less) and enjoy it. OK, I realize that there is no such thing as a "turkey Ruben," but I loved MY variation on this sandwich. I DID order the Russian dressing, but added my Guldnen's hot mustard, when Mrs. Goldstein was not looking.

I'd do similar with my roast beef po-boys at Frank's Deli in NOLA. When Frank's mother-in-law was not looking, I'd add the hot mustard. If she caught me, I would be scolded - until next time...

Hunt

[jfood]

Oy Vay Billy is being a bad boy.

First the turkey reuben then gulden's mixed with russian, and on sour dough no less.

jfood only wishes you would ask for mayo on a muff at central grocer and see their faces. it would be the nola equivilent of poor mrs goldstein..

[Kris in Beijing]

I thought a Turkey Reuben was actually a Named Sandwich-- called a Rachel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuben_s...
Variations
Rachel sandwich

The Rachel sandwich is a variation on the standard Reuben sandwich that substitutes pastrami for the corned beef and coleslaw for the sauerkraut. Other recipes for the Rachel call for turkey instead of corned beef or pastrami. In some parts of the United States, especially Michigan, this turkey variant is known as a "Georgia Reuben" or "Southern Reuben," which sometimes uses barbecue sauce instead of Russian or Thousand Island.

[Bill Hunt]

I have never heard of a Rachel, nor have I ever seen it on any menu. Maybe I have led a very sheltered life?

Still, if one makes a great Ruben, but substitutes turkey, then I am a happier camper.

Hunt

[goodhealthgourmet]

Still, if one makes a great Ruben, but substitutes turkey, then I am a happier camper.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
a true Rachel also requires coleslaw in place of the kraut, not just turkey (or pastrami) instead of corned beef. the turkey Rachel was my favorite childhood deli sandwich. great memories :)

[Bill Hunt]

Thank you for that clarification.I love my slaw on BBQ pork, but would go for the kraut any day, for my "turkey Ruben," or whatever it should be called.

Now comes the test. Russian, or Thousand Island dressings are more often applied. I like Gulden's Spicy Mustard, so I'm still an iconoclast, I suppose.

Thanks,

Hunt

[goodhealthgourmet]

i probably put mustard on more things than most people, but it has no business on a Rachel - gotta be TI or Russian.

no biggie - you can have your turkey on rye with Swiss, kraut and mustard - it actually sounds delicious...just don't call it a Rachel! ;)

[Sinicle]

Fluorescent lime-green key lime pie which, of course, is not green.
"Maryland" crabcakes with onions, "fru-fru" sauces and all other sorts of abomination. And don't get me started on bagels.

[SoulFoodie]

I've gotta co-sign on the "Maryland" crab cakes! I was raised in MD and currently live in the Atlanta-metro area and I've sworn off ordering crab cakes. It's definitely one of those things that I insist on making myself.

[brendastarlet]

I third on the crab cakes. When I lived in Maryland, I learned that a crab cake was essentially crab, a tiny bit of something to hold it together, and that it was cooked gently, either sauteed or broiled. It drives me mad to see crab cakes the size of hockey pucks, with onions and celery and breadcrumbs, then deep fried. You lose all sense of the crab.

I also go crazy over bagels that are essentially bread rolls with a hole in the middle, or bagels that are passed off as "authentic New York style" but are so tough you can hardly cut them.

My last gripe: New York cheesecake which has all kinds of gloppy sauce over it, oreos stuck in it, mint green doo-dads. NY cheesecake comes in two flavors: plain, or the kind with strawberries at attention. And yes, I know Juniors sells a bunch of flavors now, but those are the only two I recognize.

[hill food]

c'mon brenda, would you turn it down if the (presumably decent) cheesecake had blueberries instead?

but yeah pretty much anything else is gilding the lily.

[winechic]

I wholeheartedly join in on the Crab cakes. "Maryland" or "Chesapeake" crab cakes are 98% *Jumbo Lump* blue crab and a slight binder, no filler. I order mine in from MD, forget ordering them in Restaurants outside of MD, though I've tried and been completely disappointed. There are MD crabcakes and "everything else".

Chicago deep dish pizza, it's another awful thing outside of IL. I love it, and can now also order that in to ship. Not as good as waiting 45 minutes at the restaurant for a fresh one, though. :)

Real Key lime pies are not neon lime green, as stated above!! Now that I'm in FL, most places here don't serve the scary pies. Up north, it was a different story.

Finally, my hubby went to school in Buffalo, NY and suffers in his pursuit of a decent wing outside of NY. Ditto on his thin crust pizza and his beloved NY cheesecake as posted by brendastarlet.

[Bill Hunt]

Actually, I have had some great ones in London and also Hawai`i, much as you describe.

Where I "hail from," there were always fillers. I was less a fan of these (MS and New Orleans), but have loved the others.

Most of my experiences with Tidewater and Chesapeake cakes has been lacking, but then I'm usually in DC, or someplace outside the real region.

I do know what you mean, but take heart, as there are some other places, that recognize the difference - even if they are far away.

Hunt

[Bill Hunt]

Oh shoot! I commented on the cakes, but did not see the "key lime," until after I hit "Post My Reply."

Key lime is almost white. Just a few points of yellow (I come from a photographic background), and NO green. If there is green, I send it back. I always ask if this is "real" Key Lime, or some imitation. If they tell me it's real, it had better not have any green in it.

Now, for "wings," I guess that I have just not been to Buffalo enough, or have missed the entire point. I have yet to have any "wings," anyplace, that I'd order of my own volition. Let's just say that it is my lack of experience, and leave it at that. Same for "blackened" almost anything. One out of a thousand, and that is not a set of good odds.

Hunt

[winechic]

I've had decent crab cakes outside of MD, but not decent "MD" or "Chesapeake" crab cakes outside of MD. Once I was served "MD" Crab cakes that were made with snow crab...uh, no.

I've had decent blue crab meat content in various crab cakes over the years, but with claw meat or a lessor grade of lump crab meat....so it's more shredded in appearance, instead of those coveted unbroken back fin crab lumps. Without beating the crab with a stick, it's the Back Fin Jumbo Lump crab that really sets the "MD" Crab cake apart.

I lived in the Balto/DC area during my school years and still visit relatives back home. I agree, just because you are in the MD/VA/DC area doesn't mean you are finding a great crab cake up there. If you want those "good" crab cakes try heading more towards Annapolis or Eastern Shore or into Baltimore...and while some of the fancy places do it very well, the neighborhood joints are always a good bet.

I like McGarvey's when in Annapolis. If in the surrounding area try G&M's, I get mine shipped in regularly and they are awesome. http://www.gandmcrabcakes.com/ My hubby did not know of crab cakes before meeting me and is now spoiled. My folks still head to Cantler's, order some crab cakes (or crab balls, the small version) while their crabs steam. Butcher paper on the tables, authentic place. http://www.cantlers.com/

I'm with you on the Key lime pie, if it's glowing green and not the delicate shade palest yellow, the color of real Kely Lime juice...RUN ! ! !

RE: "Blackened". You are spot on. While I'll throw it on some fish at home and smoke the kitchen out, I cannot find too many great examples of it out very often, too bad.

[Bill Hunt]

See, I grew up with MS, and LA blue crab cakes. Most had heavy reliance on seasoned bread crumbs as a binder, and also various peppers, like green Bells. It was not until later in my life, that I discovered the Tidewater (and above) crab cakes, that were much more reliant on the crab meat. I like the latter much better, though the MS & LA blue crabs do have a wonderful sweetness, but it is often masked by the prep.

"Blackened," when done right, by the right chef, can be very good. Too few understand, and just burn the fish, with tons of pepper. That is NOT the idea.

Still, with regional cuisine, it is about the region. I could never say that some Tidewater, or Low Country, recipe was off, as I grew up in a different part of the Deep South, so knew different recipes.

Hunt

[alkapal]

real key lime pie is a very, very pale yellow.

[jmckee]

....and can be located by following the moans of pain from the cramping of hands that have just squeezed enough teeny tiny real key limes to make a real key lime pie.

[DiveFan]

ROFL! Actually, using a hand held lime squeezer isn't too hard on the hands. Watch out for those seeds. These small 'key limes' are abundant here in Latino markets, but I use the term advisedly due to the carelessness / ignorance of the local supply chain.

Reminds me of the Rick Bayless TV episode starring the various varieties of limas and limones, almost made my head explode. OT, don't anyone bring up 'pasilla' ....

[goodhealthgourmet]

Actually, using a hand held lime squeezer isn't too hard on the hands. Watch out for those seeds.
~~~~~~~~~~~
just set a fine sieve over the container you're using to collect the juice.

i've also found that the fork or reamer method works well with key limes if you just slice off a small piece as opposed to halving the lime - leaves you more to grip & work with.

[Bill Hunt]

Insert great big GRIN here!

I have had key limes, and cooked with them, so I know the pain.

Wife has about four "squeezers," but none is suited for a key lime. All are too large.

Hunt

[jmckee]

I confess I've never actually experienced the pain, just known about it from others. Until a year ago, my local butcher shop (named "The Meat Store") had an older lady who in addition to being an expert butcher liked to bake. Her key lime pies were splendid.

[lcool]

An old fashioned reamer,wood or glass is OK for a small number.However for large quantities of MEXICAN/KEY LIMES (botanically the same) I get out the pasta roller,quarter the limes,place bowl underneath and sort out the mess when done.

[eclecticsynergy]

An old-fashioned garlic press works well on quartered Key limes.
No groaning, no seeds.

[Bob W]

I remember the first time I had key lime pie -- this was at the now-departed Puffins Cafe in Baltimore 30 years ago. The very pale pie was brought out, and my immediate thought -- in the mind of an ignorant chowhound-in-training -- was "WTF?" But damn was it good. It wasn't until years later that I learned to laugh at bright green key lime pie.

[paulj]

Are you allowed to call it key lime pie if the limes weren't grown on Keys?

[Bill Hunt]

Not sure about the FDA, and the various marketing arms of the US Gov - Truth in Advertising, or maybe the ATF, but if the color is green, I run the other way.

In AZ, we have "lime pies," but those limes are larger, and have no seeds. The taste is OK, but is different. Still, no "florescent green!"

Hunt

[exotec]

Oh, absolutely! :-( Key Lime pie should be nearly white.

And I second the comments on cornbread ... especially CORN FRITTERS!!! who ever heard of a fritter that's flat or not served dusted with confec sugar? ... well, I've heard of them ... they just aren't what I think of when somebody says "corn fritters" to me.

"Dumplings" that look like fat noodles. A dumpling is a light billowy treasure boiled in the most savory of chicken stock. They turn the stock into delectable gravy, and the stock turns the dumplin' dough into little clouds of heaven. What are those heavy thick slabs of dough anyway?

...and IMHO...
BBQ is slow-cooked meat thereafter simmered in a sauce (plenty varieties of those, too)
grilling is cooking on an open flame - gas, wood, or charcoal
and smoking is the long slow-cooking treatment usually applied to meats before BBQing

but what do I know
};>

[paulj]

Those flat dumplings are a regional variety that people don't get right! There are 2 major camps when it comes to chicken and dumplings. You are in one. The flat ones are in the other.

I've not heard of your distinction between BBQ and smoking. There is plenty of debate about whether sauce should be applied to slow smoked meat, and when. And in some versions the meat is chopped or pulled, and dressed with a sauce, but I don't recall anyone simmering it in the sauce.

As to making a distinction between BBQ and grilling, that's like closing the barn doors after the horses have escaped.

[alkapal]

my mom was in both camps on the dumplings. she made the fluffy ones, and also made the flat ones (but i complained with them!).

[mpjmph]

I grew up with the flat/dense variety of "dumplings," but we always called it chicken and pastry.

[eclecticsynergy]

IMO if they're deep-fried cornmeal that's savory & not sweet they're hush puppies.

[melpy]

Here here! Key lime pie shouldn't be green. Went to a banquet and was served lovely key lime pie that was quite pale and everyone at my table though it was what they were calling "key lemon" pie while it was obvious lime flavored. I hope they serve it at next year's banquet.

[alkapal]

key lemon! LOL.

[paulj]

What would be a good name for a pie made with sweetened condensed milk, lemons and crumb crust?

[alkapal]

IF there were such a thing as a "key lemon," that would be a perfectly fine name.

[mamachef]

Trayler Traysh Pah, and I'm not knocking it. Never did hear of a Key Lemon though.

[paulj]

That got me to wondering whether passion fruit would work as a substitute for limes. A search turned up this recipe
http://southamericanfood.about.com/od...
that uses the key lime pie recipe, substituting a mix of mango, passion fruit and lime juice for the straight key lime juice.

I have made a good mango passion fruit panna cotta, so I suspect the combination would also be great in a pie. I have no problem with the name 'Pastel de Mango y Maracuya'

[mamachef]

Delicious, is what it sounds like to me. You could really get going on a pretty exotic tropical theme here-tangy fruit curds, even layered with a coconut custard. (Wouldn't that be a pretty presentation, in an uber-sized shotglass?) The sub. for that passion fruit - you'd have to use more of the puree than you would the limes since the flavor and tang are subtler. Now, all the rest of y'all:
Step away from my pie. And drop the server. : )

[bushwickgirl]

I'd call it all et up.

[alkapal]

yup. hey paw and maw, i want me some of that pie!

[hill food]

put whatever you want in and call it a Key Pie with the fruit of choice at the front as a descriptive modifier and the naming convention refers to the process, not the ingredient - so Lemon Key Pie or your idea of Passionfruit Key Pie. no misinformation that way.

[alkapal]

what the heck is "key" about those names you propose? key refers to the provenance of the lime. passionfruit key pie makes no sense.

[thew]

if you are a literalist, no. but key passionfruit pie would still stelltill a consumer what flavor profile to expect. even though i think its a bit stupid a name

[hill food]

I was just trying to be nice for once. to put Key before the fruit of choice suggests the provenance, putting it after would refer to a style of pie. (god this feels like a late Friday argument with a SO after a party and a small misunderstanding turns into grounds for separation) still love ya alk, anybody that wants to make any kind of pie from scratch occupies a rather high notch in my book whatever the hell it's called.

now can we PLEASE argue about whose turn it is to walk the dog? or if beurre blanc requires a masc or fem article? and is there a plural and if so, then what? (my ex and I once argued bitterly about the Treaty of Nantes - beats everyday stuff)

[alkapal]

yes, it IS like a late night argument…when one party is coming in from work and the other party has been ….partying.

[Sideswiper]

Adding smoke flavor to vegetables and calling them "southern" is plain wrong. We may put pork in our vegetables but we don't pour in chemical smoke flavor additives.

About BBQ: This funny video is required viewing for everyone about the myriad of types of BBQ in the country.
http://www.rhettandlink.com/videos/bb...

[porker]

Love that video!

[Passadumkeg]

Liked the Maine vid. too.

[lcool]

???? corn bread and all of it's contradictory regional isms.North,south,yellow,white,
sugar or not,breakfast,lunch or dinner??? Such an eye openner when three or more
strong opinions get going on it.Or the arguments that erupt when "sweetened"is the
version at a "southern style" restaurant north of the Mason-Dixon Line.There maybe no regional "wrong" to right,but the debate between contrarians and traditionalists is never dull.

[laliz]

pre-made (shudder) avocado "dip" masquerading as guacamole

enchiladas made w/flour tortillas

[mayfair1929]

Second the enchiladas with flour tortillas - not really enchiladas, as far as I'm concerned!

[paulj]

If they are dipped in, or covered with a 'chile' sauce, they have been 'enchilada', though a full name might be 'tortillas de harina enchilada'.

[Passadumkeg]

sorry, ya won't find a flour tortilla in NM. It just ain't done here. Enchiladas are also stacked, not rolled.

[alkapal]

why aren't flour tortillas used there?

[Passadumkeg]

Flour tortillas are used only for burittos and as a side like bread.

[hill food]

mmm warm homemade tortillas slathered in butter - a friend from SoCal turned me on to that. slap-in-your-face-duh-obvious in hindsight.

[Passadumkeg]

Honey too!

[paulj]

speaking of regional foods that others do wrong, how about sopapillas? Some places (outside of NM) fry a flour tortilla, dust it with cinnamon sugar and squirt of whipped cream, and call that a sopapilla.

[hill food]

yes, and honey too.

paulj I'd give first timers a hall pass on that shortcut, (although I can say smugly the first time I had sopapillas we did ''em from scratch at a base camp interval while backpacking in NM - yeah like we were going to hike cast iron skillets around)

[paulj]

Outside of NM I've had good ones in 2 places - a college dorm in Texas, and a Mexican/Italian place in Homer Alaska.

[Jenny Ondioline]

When I lived in Albuquerque, a local radio commercial did a takeoff of those Molson "I am Canadian" ads called "I am a New Mexican." One of the lines was "I can correctly spell sopaipilla." That extra "i" confuses people.

Best sopaipillas in the world are at Duran Central Pharmacy in Albuquerque, incidentally.

[Passadumkeg]

Up Central, across from UNM, El Patio, has better sopaipillas.

Stuffed sopaipillas? Red, green of Christmas?

[Jenny Ondioline]

Never really liked El Patio, though it was mere steps from my apartment, and always considered stuffed sopaipillas just a sloppier Navajo taco. Although one of my work friends ate lunch at Stufy's at least once a week, and if she was buying, I wasn't too proud to pass it up. They had a bitchin' chicharon burrito.

[alkapal]

jenny, what is the root word for sopaipilla? also, what is the meaning?

[thew]

from wiki:

The word sopaipilla is the diminutive of sopaipa, a word that entered Spanish from the Mozarabic language of Moslem Iberian peninsula.[7] The original Mozarabic word Xopaipa was used to mean bread soaked in oil, and derived in turn from the Germanic word suppa which meant bread soaked in liquid.[2]

[alkapal]

amazing -- it's a german word. LOL!

[tatamagouche]

I have a soft spot for Charlie's Front/Back Door, myself. It's partly the atmosphere though.

[Jenny Ondioline]

Historically, there's an enormous amount of Mexican/German crossover: there was quite a lot of German and Bohemian settlement in South Texas and Mexico. Ever wonder where Norteno music got the accordion and the polka beats from?

[alkapal]

jenny, i **always** wondered about the mexican music that sounded like polkas! thanks!

[Passadumkeg]

Czechs too; this is why kulache is popular in Texas.

[Jenny Ondioline]

Well, the Bohemians were Czechs. The ones who settled in Texas and Mexico in the 1800s were mostly escaping an ongoing low-level civil war back home. But yeah, the Bohemians brought kolache and pilsner to the area.

[paulj]

It may get Germanic in origin, but it is not a current German word. This isn't evidence of soplaipilla originating with German immigrants in Texas. Spain has various fried dough desserts, churros, bunuellos, pristinos.

[goodhealthgourmet]

alka, thew's quote said it derives from a GermanIC word, not a German word :)

there are many Germanic languages - and yes, German is one of them, but so is English (and Dutch, and Swedish...)

[alkapal]

yes, i know. i was attempting to be cute. apparently, that was a FAIL.

[paulj]

Spanish 'sopa' (a piece of soaked bread) also comes from this root.

Here's a California company that tries to group sopaipillas with other fried doughs, including the Portuguese/Hawaiian malasadas

http://home.comcast.net/~osoono/produ...

[Passadumkeg]

So many roots to Mexican cooking, make the word "authentic" hard to define, except by using dates.
I love "real" Mexican tacos al pastor. Again a Lebanese influence, like a gyro on a tortilla. They have to be made on the "trompah", though, which looks like a gyro cooker, to be "authentic". Where'd the pinapple come from?

[tatamagouche]

Interesting thread on the pineapple question:

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/655340

[Passadumkeg]

Thanks, I missed that one. Tat, do you know of any good al pastor in Albuquerque?

[tatamagouche]

Not offhand, but next time I'm there, if you're there yet, maybe we should go on a search!

[Passadumkeg]

email me

[Bill Hunt]

"So many roots to Mexican cooking, make the word "authentic" hard to define, except by using dates"

Isn't that the truth? Also, throw in the geography, and the other aspects of how the cuisine was transferred. It is not an easy term to define. What might be "authentic" to Sonora, could well be unheard of in Campeche, or even in Moorelos.

My question is "authentic to whom?"

Hunt

[paulj]

English has 'sop' , from OE soppe, dipped bread.

[alkapal]

yep, i was thinking of "sop" too -- as in "i'm gonna sop up that pot likker by crumbling my corn bread in there!"

~~~~~~~
probably, the word origin for "dipped bread" came from noah. ;-).

[Bill Hunt]

Or, perhaps Moses?

Hunt

[alkapal]

touché bill hunt. well done!

...dipped flatbread, in that case?

[thew]

exactly - from the german roots of OE

[hill food]

I just gotta say I find these cross-pollinated food and culture stories utterly fascinating.

[Passadumkeg]

I have just returned from a school taco dinner fund raiser at the high school. I though you might enjoy that sopapipillas were served as a side.

[mamachef]

Pdk, we have a local hero named Rocky Yazzie whose marvelous goal in life is to push a propane pushcart through the Mission District, day and night. He hands out the most delicious Navajo frybread drizzled with honey or agave syrup, and if you haven't got money it's free, but word says the above-and-beyond donation factor helps him pay for supplies, upkeep and maintenance. The world needs more Rocky Yazzies. : )

[hill food]

guys like that make me miss SF (um you are talking about the SF Mission District I assume)

[bushwickgirl]

She is.

That is true to the core.

[Bill Hunt]

Think about it for a moment. It is about the indigenous ingredients. If an area does not have wheat, but they do have corn (red, white, yellow or blue), then the cuisine of that area will reflect the availability of the ingredients.

Ever wonder why there are almost no Cajun beef dishes? The land did not support cattle, in most areas, but pork, and the flesh of many other creatures were available., plus a lot of swamp "seafood." The folk cooked what they had, as there were few Safeways then.[Grin]

In NM, one is more likely to get red and blue corn, as those crops grow there. One is more likely to get pork, or cheese, or goat, and seldom fish/seafood, as those were not available until Fed-X.

Also, one has two cultures in NM - Indio and Mexican, with the European Caucasian influence coming later. Back before they were a state, or even a territory, the indigenous peoples worked the land, and did dishes, that reflected what was grown in the land.

Not that this is bad, in any way, just different.

As the US - Mexican border is about 2000 miles, and that does not include the different cultures and cuisines of the non-border states in Mexico, there are many differences.

Hunt

[paulj]

NM was Spanish before it was Mexican. In fact it was under independent Mexican rule for only a quarter of a century. Mexican itself is a blend of Indian and European (mostly Spanish), but the blend is different in, say Chiapas in the south, from that in DF, and different also from that in the northern states. I suspect the Spanish settlement in NM was always a blend of Spanish and mestizos.

"Prominent among those who shouldered the burden of frontier settlement and defense were the growing mestízo, or mixed blood, population of the province. Among the least recognized of these groups are the genízaro. The genízaro were Indians from various tribes, who had, for a variety of reasons, lost their tribal identity. Many of them were captive children, who had been raised in Spanish households and been baptized, had assumed Spanish surnames, and had eventually become Hispanicized. Genízaro settlements such as those established at Abiquiu and Tomé, bore a significant portion of New Mexico's frontier defense well into the 19th century. Despite many struggles, the growth of these communities made possible the subsequent development and expansion of New Mexico."
http://www.nmgs.org/artcuar4.htm

[Naco]

Interesting term there- "genízaro" or "jenízaro" is the Hispanicized form of "janissary", the old Ottoman Turkish corps de elite. Apparently this word used to be applied to mixed-race people.

[paulj]

The janissaries were also kidnapped children (mostly from the Balkins), raised in Turkish homes, and then in the army.

[Bill Hunt]

And, before the Spanish, there were several Native American tribes, who inhabited the land before. Some contributed to the cuisine of the state, and to the region. That has contribute to the culinary identity of the area, just as the Native American cuisine has contributed to that of AZ.

OT, but a side note. I have some good friends, and asked about whether the family was from Mexico (AZ residents), and the reply was "no, we were in AZ long before the earliest Mexican infusion. Long before AZ was even a territory, our family had settled here, so we predate the Mexicans, the statehood, and everyone, but the Native Americans."

Good point, and thank you for the clarification.

Hunt

[paulj]

Various tribes in those 2 states have retained a lot of the culinary heritage. I sampled some of that a couple of decades ago with a visit to the Hope Visitor Center and restaurant, and later the Pueblo museum in Albuquerque. Whether they influenced the Hispanic and Anglo cuisine is less obvious. Selected items like blue corn have become something of a fad in the broader culture, but I doubt if the influence has been very deep.

[Passadumkeg]

My SIL's family in New Mexico predates the Pilgrams in NEw England. The Acoma Pueblo, in my school district has been continously inhabitedm for nearly a thousand years, the oldest in North America.
Don't get me going on wifey's Pilgram roots...;

[paulj]

Then you would be an a good position to explain how Pueblo cuisine has affected the broader NM cuisine.

When I look at the list of NM cuisine terminology on the Wiki article, I don't see much that is not familiar from Mexican or Mexican-American usage. The use of local NM chiles is somewhat unique, but I think that derives more from what cultivars grow well there, and developments in the last hundred years or so (including university research programs). There was also mention of NM flour tortillas being thicker and softer than California ones, due to a softer local wheat.

We've talked about the unique NM sopapillas, but those seem to have European roots (in name and method), not Native American - unless you can somehow link them to fry bread (itself a Native adaptation of European bannock).

[alkapal]

isn't a sopaipilla fry bread? what else would it be considerd?

~~~~~~~
the seminoles in florida make fry bread. are there tribes anywhere in north america that don't make a fry bread? ground grain, moisture, salt and fat, plus fire. pretty darn basic.

http://www.manataka.org/page180.html

i'm curious about leavening, and when and where it was introduced to fry bread recipes. or...what did native americans use to leaven, if at all?

[paulj]

Some sources attribute fry bread to the Navajos during their exile at Ft Sumner. Whether that is true or not, the basic ingredients are the ones provided by the US government - flour and lard. More sedentary tribes grew corn, squash and beans before European contact, with few domesticated animals (anything other than dogs?). RI Jonnycake is probably closest thing to a bread that any of the tribes could have produced before the introduction of European grains, fats and cookware.

I imagine leaving in the form of baking powder became available on the reservations about the same time that it became part of biscuits and cornbread in the rest of country. Baking soda can be made at home, but it is hard to get it very pure.

I suspect fry bread became widespread among Native Americans (and virtually identified with them) via powwows and other intertribal gatherings.

[alkapal]

intertribal gatherings? is this your source for this information you present? http://www.smithsonianmag.com/people-places/frybread.html

"""Navajo frybread originated 144 years ago, when the United States forced Indians living in Arizona to make the 300-mile journey known as the "Long Walk" and relocate to New Mexico, onto land that couldn't easily support their traditional staples of vegetables and beans. To prevent the indigenous populations from starving, the government gave them canned goods as well as white flour, processed sugar and lard—the makings of frybread."""

Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/people-places/frybread.html#ixzz1JjMktLFN

`~~~~~~~~~~~~~

back to your argument:
the native tribes had no fat or ground grain (or starch) before the u.s. govt. gave it to them to make a fried patty? you don't think it could have arisen as a natural creation, for any tribe? maybe the spaniards gave the idea to the seminoles, but i still think a fry bread is a creation that "naturally" arises from taste and necessity.

paul, with all due respect, i *seriously doubt* that the seminoles got their "idea" for a fry bread from the navajos!!! and, as to the ways a tribe could get the starch, here is what the seminoles used """In the past, however, Seminoles made flour for cooking from the roots of the wild coontie (Zamia) plant."""" http://www.semtribe.com/Culture/Semin...

what are your other sources please?

[thew]

didn't you know that prior to the arrival of europeans no animals had fat?