556942 Fri Sep 12 15:09:42 -0700 2008 54 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 4030490 I have noticed the better Vietnamese restaurants will have "mustard jars" of what seems like home made "salsa". As oppossed to Sriracha its got a clean flavor and lots of textural contrasts with flecks of chile & seeds... it certainly has garlic & maybe other spices... but overall it has such a clean, absolutely delicious flavor that I can't resist just sipping with one hand while drying the sweat off my forehead with the other. Does anybody know what this sauce is called? The following blogger makes a homemade Viet style sauce... hers is a bit less coarse.. and lacks the deeper mahogany color of the sauce I am describing. http://crystalbyblog.blogspot.com/2007/10/chicken-rice-chilli-sauce-with-garlic.html Fri Sep 12 15:09:43 -0700 2008 42572 Eat_Nopal 1 4030507 I like a lot of different hot sauces and spices, including Sriracha. Guess I'm a loser. :::sigh::: Fri Sep 12 15:19:32 -0700 2008 4030490 95291 Richard 16 1 4030537 In "Into the Vietnamese Kitchen," one of two Vietnamese cookbooks that are this month's cookbooks of the month, Andrea Nguyen has a recipe for what she calls a dipping sauce that has the following ingredients: 1/3 cup fresh lime juice (2 or 3 limes) 1 tablespoon unseasoned Japanese rice vinegar (optional) 3 tablespoons sugar 2/3 cup lukewarm water 5 to 6 tablespoons fish sauce 2 or 3 Thai chilies, thinly sliced 2 cloves garlic, minced (optional) She goes into some detail explaining that these quantities are just a guideline to help you develop your own version depending on how you prefer your balance of sour, sweet, salty, and spicy. I'm not sure where the deep mahogany color would come from, unless it's from one of the darker, stronger brands of fish sauce. Or it could be that they have another ingredient in there. Hoisin, perhaps? Fri Sep 12 15:30:41 -0700 2008 4030490 11407 JoanN 2 4030587 The mahogany color comes form the dried chiles used. The version I am describing would have minimal sugar or fish sauce. Fri Sep 12 15:44:50 -0700 2008 4030537 42572 Eat_Nopal 3 4030599 Hmm - none of the sauces that I've seen in Pham's book (one of the two COTM books) calls for dried chilies, nor do any of the recipes. Some recipes call for a caramel sauce, but I've not read that that is incorporated into a dipping or other sauce. Edit - I wonder if the color could come from a dark soy sauce - such as a sweet soy sauce - that is called for in some recipes? Fri Sep 12 15:47:21 -0700 2008 4030587 10985 MMRuth 4 4030609 Thats it.... next time I go to a Vietnamese place I will take pictures of it and post... heck they might even provide me a recipe guideline. Fri Sep 12 15:51:28 -0700 2008 4030599 42572 Eat_Nopal 5 4030622 Thanks - please do take photos and/or ask them what is in the sauce. It would be interesting to know. I'll take a look tomorrow again at the sauces in the book to see if I'm missing something that might be what you are thinking of. Fri Sep 12 15:56:46 -0700 2008 4030609 10985 MMRuth 5 4033704 Maybe it's brown rice vinegar. Sun Sep 14 08:22:31 -0700 2008 4030609 116513 linguafood 3 4030689 Vietnamese restaurant? Minimal fish sauce? I'll believe it when you pry the recipe out of them. :-) Fri Sep 12 16:15:21 -0700 2008 4030587 11407 JoanN 3 4030747 Estimado E N, try to go with the flow! Hawai'i was mostly Asian when I was growing up. You've got to learn that fish sauce and sometimes lots of it is a basic in many parts of SE Asia. Abrazos! Fri Sep 12 16:35:25 -0700 2008 4030587 36661 Sam Fujisaka 4 4030780 I like fish sauce... but the sauces described below are eons better than the brands of Sriracha I've tried. Fri Sep 12 16:46:52 -0700 2008 4030747 42572 Eat_Nopal 5 4030840 Ahh... que bien! Entiendo! Fri Sep 12 17:13:14 -0700 2008 4030780 36661 Sam Fujisaka 1 4030615 might the darker color come from oxidization, or tamarind? Fri Sep 12 15:54:12 -0700 2008 4030490 105717 alkapal 2 4030637 Tamarind is certainly a posibility... but to stress there are flecks of (partially) rehydrated dried chiles. Fri Sep 12 15:59:48 -0700 2008 4030615 42572 Eat_Nopal 1 4030635 Maybe it's Sambal Oelek? Used in Indonesian Cuisine as well... Fri Sep 12 15:59:32 -0700 2008 4030490 144949 chefschickie 2 4030704 I thought about that, but sambal oelek lack the "deeper mahogany color" EN described. I'm thinking it's a variant of something called "ớt sate" or "sate ớt" that's made with dried chili, lemongrass, and garlic all cooked in oil. See picture: http://bp0.blogger.com/_z2xm6OZNVqI/RkisFTtRDOI/AAAAAAAAAvY/vWY0g3IBjbc/s1600-h/sate.jpg Fri Sep 12 16:20:24 -0700 2008 4030635 17410 Ali 3 4030776 That is very close. The particular versions I liked had a little more of murky (less oily translucent) body... but we are very close. Fri Sep 12 16:45:05 -0700 2008 4030704 42572 Eat_Nopal 4 4031384 Perhaps more like sambal badjak? It's darker than sambal oelek and is dried chili-based. Fri Sep 12 22:54:00 -0700 2008 4030776 10910 dustchick 4 4034200 Hm. I called my mother just to see if she knew, and in her words, there are no Vietnamese hot sauce that looks similar to the sate sauce but is not made with oil as you cannot cook up the chilies and such without oil. (Of course, we're all southerners, so maybe that's the problem.) I'm stumped so am stuck with my original answer that it's a variant of the sate sauce, either made without oil completely or made with less oil and have some other liquid added. Sun Sep 14 12:20:46 -0700 2008 4030776 17410 Ali 1 4030751 If we're talking about the same stuff, it's called tuong ot toi. The simplest version is just fresh whole ot hiem (Southeast Asian hot red chile peppers) and garlic, ground together with salt, sugar, and/or vinegar as needed. There are probably as many versions as there are cooks, but dried chiles are a new one on me. As a matter of fact, I don't think dried chiles are often used in traditional Vietnamese cooking, but I may be mistaken. As far as I know "tuong ot toi" and "sambal oelek" are just the Vietnamese and Indonesian names for the same thing. Many Vietnamese restaurants have a big jug of Huy Fong brand sambal oelek in the back from which they refill those mustard jars. Fri Sep 12 16:36:12 -0700 2008 4030490 58743 alanbarnes 2 4030778 So the picture above doesn't strike you as dried chile based? Fri Sep 12 16:45:44 -0700 2008 4030751 42572 Eat_Nopal 3 4030855 The stuff in Ali's picture definitely looks like it's made from dried chiles. Shows how much I know. I haven't seen or heard of ot sate before. Maybe it's a regional thing? Fri Sep 12 17:19:47 -0700 2008 4030778 58743 alanbarnes 4 4031314 no I have seen it made at home before, it is definately fresh chilies. Fri Sep 12 21:25:46 -0700 2008 4030855 118120 luckyfatima 3 4032355 Fresh. Could the color have come from Keycap Manis? Was it sweet, at all? Sat Sep 13 12:55:21 -0700 2008 4030778 137946 Scargod 1 4030833 What? You say that now? After that loooong post where you praised Sriracha to the heavens and said that Tabasco was the worst? And here I sit with the 3rd bottle of Sriracha in the fridge because I was determined to try to like it and now do. You turned the tables and have your eyes on another? Arrrrggggghhhh.... (O_O) I don't even have to look up the correct spelling any more. All because of you. Now you have spurned Sriracha. What evil lurks....... Fri Sep 12 17:10:39 -0700 2008 4030490 75332 Gio 1 4031313 Wow, I was sooo afraid to say it because so many ppl think Sriracha is like crack! But to me it is too heavily vinegar laden and that alters the food in a bad way unless you want a hot and sour element! I use it in some things, but really the homemade stuff without all the vinegar is much better. Yes, the real deal is tuong ot toi, and I have seen some friends' moms make it before along the lines of the way alanbarnes describes it above, with fresh red chilies and all in the blender. watch out because when you blend it the fiery heat wafts into the air and can poke your eye out. The color darkens with age. The sugar, salt, and (tiny amount) of vinegar preserve it, so it lasts a long time. Fri Sep 12 21:24:11 -0700 2008 4030490 118120 luckyfatima 2 4031575 It might be that whether one uses dried or fresh chiles depends on what one has on hand or prefers. The condiment might be the same, but variations can and do occur. I would have my doubts that there is one single version of this condiment. Just as there are different versions of hot lime pickles, Korean dipping sauces, etc. Variety - a boon, but also a bane when you find the perfect combination of ingredients, but then are unable to recreate it. Sat Sep 13 05:32:09 -0700 2008 4031313 89969 moh 2 4031582 Here are some recipes for and photos of tuong ot toi: http://vietworldkitchen.typepad.com/blog/2007/10/homemade-chili-.html One recipe uses raw chilies, the other cooked ones. Sat Sep 13 05:38:35 -0700 2008 4031313 10985 MMRuth 3 4032052 MMRuth: could this sauce be frozen in ice cube trays for later use? how long would the fresh pepper sauce last in the fridge? a week maybe? Sat Sep 13 10:34:19 -0700 2008 4031582 11234 toodie jane 4 4032071 I don't know, actually - but you want want to ask on the COTM thread for sauces by Nguyen this month: http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/553824 I've not tried this recipe yet. Sat Sep 13 10:42:46 -0700 2008 4032052 10985 MMRuth 1 4031403 it definitely sounds like Tuong Ot Toi (garli chili) here's a pic: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sorrydad/2654756888/ Fri Sep 12 23:18:43 -0700 2008 4030490 225841 janeBee 2 4031440 Nope, that's a different condiment. Sat Sep 13 00:27:09 -0700 2008 4031403 10039 Melanie Wong 1 4031438 Teochew Chinese/Viet restaurants often make their own satay (aka saday, sacha, sate') condiment and you can buy it by the jar to take home. That's the dark colored (dried chili based with many other salted and pickled elements) condiment in the small pots. It's totally different than the Malay/Indonesian style satay sauce. I've recently posted about the versions at Toon Kee and Sun San in San Francisco. Sriracha has its place, and I would use it in a different way than saday sauce. Sat Sep 13 00:22:40 -0700 2008 4030490 10039 Melanie Wong 2 4031481 Melanie, that one IS with dried chilies, garlic, and oil, right? Sat Sep 13 02:04:00 -0700 2008 4031438 118120 luckyfatima 3 4031525 Loser perhaps, but then the very kind Asian ladies and gentlemen wouldn't always -- I guess I look the gringo -- point out to me 'you know that's very hot' when I'm picking up my bottle of Sriracha in the local Asian grocery. That's worth the price of admission. Sat Sep 13 04:14:33 -0700 2008 4031481 11104 dolores 4 4032351 In Dallas, in the 60's, we would ask for more "soup" when the salsa disappeared before the chips. That raised a few eyebrows! Sat Sep 13 12:53:17 -0700 2008 4031525 137946 Scargod 3 4031571 Melanie: Oh it occurred to me, is that the one with dried chili, chicken broth, soya sauce, sugar, garlic, ginger and oil blitzed together? If it is that, that stuff is magical and beats Sriracha anytime. Sat Sep 13 05:23:06 -0700 2008 4031481 118120 luckyfatima 4 4031878 Here's a reader's reverse-engineered version on vietworldkitchen, http://vietworldkitchen.typepad.com/blog/2007/07/lemongrass-chil.html The ones I've seen seem like all dried chiles and little fresh, looking coarser, denser, and darker in color. Also, this recipe doesn't add dried shrimp, anchovies, salted cabbage hearts, pickled turnips, black beans, or any of the umami-rich seasonings that make it so unique to each chef and addictive, and uses MSG and fish sauce instead. I had a dyslexic moment in my earlier post, the restaurant in SF is San Sun (not Sun San). edited to add: Looking further on the vietworld kitchen site, Andrea says that sate sauce "vietnamese" dishes were invented abroad, which I doubt. I wouldn't put peanuts in it as she concocts here (and says she's not had it before but made up this recipe). http://www.vietworldkitchen.com/features/chowfun_sate.htm Again, where I've seen it in the SF Bay Area is at Chinese-Vietnamese restaurants. These are run by ethnic Teochew people whose families immigrated to Vietnam and other parts of Southeast Asia in the Ming dynasty (400+ years ago). So, I don't think it was invented in the US, but perhaps part of Chinese culinary culture in Vietnam and not among ethnic Vietnamese. Hu tieu hai san sate is a Teochew soup. Sat Sep 13 08:58:09 -0700 2008 4031571 10039 Melanie Wong 3 4031883 And many other things. The sambal oelek-type sauces that others are describing are a whole other thing, like you'd use with Hainan chicken. EN's looking for satay sauce, which is more like an oily paste than a sauce. Sat Sep 13 09:00:07 -0700 2008 4031481 10039 Melanie Wong 4 4033276 The Spicy Rooster (a more innocent nickname than that used by most fellow diners), is just the starting base. We have added more chili flakes, hoisin, and one of my Korean buddies likes to add the puree of an Asian pear and minced garlic. He continues to have trouble finding people with whom to converse. Sat Sep 13 22:10:16 -0700 2008 4031883 140436 fresnohotspot 4 4033677 Okay, EN, looks like we're at an impasse without further info from you--is the stuff you're chowing down more like salsa, or is it an "oily paste"? Sun Sep 14 08:03:51 -0700 2008 4031883 58743 alanbarnes 1 4033257 It's generally sold as "Chili Paste With Garlic" - maybe without garlic sometimes, but in broad terms it's ground chili peppers instead of Sriracha's pureed chili peppers. Sat Sep 13 21:53:05 -0700 2008 4030490 14479 wayne keyser 2 4033726 So this other stuff is for sale? In Asian groceries? So I look for 'tuong ot toi'? Sun Sep 14 08:30:16 -0700 2008 4033257 11104 dolores 3 4033737 I don't know if we're sure that what EN had was this or not. I was reading Pham this morning, and she refers to 'tuong ot toi' as chili paste, ground - and says that it is made with "coarsely ground (unseeded) red chilies, garlic and vinegar." She recommends the Rooster brand. 'Tuong ot' is chili sauce aka Sriracha sauce, and she said that it is a "smooth puree of seeded red chilies, vinegar, garlic and sugar". Does anyone know what 'toi' means? Looking forward to EN reporting back. Sun Sep 14 08:36:43 -0700 2008 4033726 10985 MMRuth 4 4033772 Toi (actually, tỏi) is garlic. Sun Sep 14 08:53:40 -0700 2008 4033737 58743 alanbarnes 5 4033774 Thank you. I wonder if that means that there is more garlic in tuong ot toi than in tuong ot? Sun Sep 14 08:55:33 -0700 2008 4033772 10985 MMRuth 6 4033798 "Tuong ot" just means chili sauce. Maybe it's assumed that if you don't specify anything else you're talking about Sriracha, but If you look at the bottle it says "tuong ot Sriracha," or Sriracha chili sauce. (Sriracha is a city in Thailand.) Sun Sep 14 09:07:40 -0700 2008 4033774 58743 alanbarnes 1 4033709 One other thought--in high school I had a recently-immigrated friend who mixed Sriracha and hoisin together and dipped everything in it--he called it "Vietnamese ketchup." I made bun for dinner last night and, inspired by this thread, used tuong ot toi instead of Sriracha to make the spicy-sweet dip. It may not be what you're talking about, but it was pretty consistent with your description. And quite delicious. Sun Sep 14 08:25:06 -0700 2008 4030490 58743 alanbarnes 2 4033810 I've done that combo with a little honey, a tiny amount of bottled BBQ sauce and some extra garlic. It's great on ribs. Sun Sep 14 09:11:07 -0700 2008 4033709 204342 FriedClamFanatic 1 4034470 Don't know what the sauce is called. But color me a loser. :) Sun Sep 14 14:35:39 -0700 2008 4030490 219993 LA Buckeye Fan 2 4038639 Same here.. Tue Sep 16 06:30:22 -0700 2008 4034470 202497 MattInNJ 1 4039598 I made this one and it was a winner. http://wanderingchopsticks.blogspot.com/2008/02/tuong-ot-xa-vietnamese-lemongrass-chili.html Tue Sep 16 12:09:38 -0700 2008 4030490 74378 kirkj 2 4040121 thanks for the link, the pictures look awesome, and I can't wait to try my hand at concocting the lemongrass chili sauce... my mouth is actually watering as I think about this. Tue Sep 16 15:13:59 -0700 2008 4039598 140436 fresnohotspot 2 4040299 that recipe looks amazing. I think I'm going to try it out. I am going to mix it with some mayo and dip dried squid in it. yum yum Tue Sep 16 16:38:15 -0700 2008 4039598 24546 bitsubeats 1 4916424 They tend to buy Sriracha (or a similar sauce) in bulk then put in smaller jars. It is important to note that on a trip to Vietnam in 1999, I would see Sriracha on the tables of tiny restaurants in small towns. A good example of quality of this brand such that it is exported from the US to Vietnam. Tue Aug 04 10:09:25 -0700 2009 4030490 290281 Talty