555284 Sat Sep 06 18:53:20 -0700 2008 26 34 Wine 0 4014217 Learned about this home 'winery' on Tech Now. A mere $4, 500 will allow you to make wine at home with no experience necessary ... there's software that controls it all and corrects mistakes. From the website ... http://www.winepod.net/products/winepod-and-winecoach.aspx "all-in-one winemaking system that allows anyone, anywhere to make great wine with no experience required. The sleek self-contained unit ferments, presses and manages your wine. State-of-the-art features such as temperature control, an automatic press, and real-time Brix (% sugar by weight) sensor increase yield, simplify steps and improve wine quality. The pomace basket is designed for easy use, cleaning, and press cake removal" It's that liitle pomice basket that reminds me of my coffee brewer. No grapes ... no problem ... you can buy de-stemmed, quick frozen grapes shipped to your home. http://www.winepod.net/products/grapes.aspx So ... has anyone tried this? I really have no clue what board this should go on ... wine ... cookware ... news & media ... homecooking. I'll start on the General Board and let the powers that be put it in the right place. Sat Sep 06 18:53:20 -0700 2008 10264 rworange 1 4015921 Have not seen this one. I assume that their business plan includes a good market study. At least I hope so. For US$ 4,500, I can buy a lot of nice wines, pre-made. If this takes off, I guess that Helen Turley will need to freshen up her resume. Interesting, but I think I'll take a pass for now, Hunt Sun Sep 07 17:03:54 -0700 2008 4014217 11329 Bill Hunt 2 4015928 Amen. Sun Sep 07 17:07:53 -0700 2008 4015921 28703 RicRios 1 4016067 I don't know about making your own at home, but there seems to be a trend in NY lately towards making your own barrel of wine from grapes imported from CA. I'm not sure why anyone would do this when, as Bill points out, you can get much better wine for less money, but there you have it. This is one of the DIY places: http://www.citywinery.com/barrelowners/index.html Sun Sep 07 18:17:15 -0700 2008 4014217 16011 oolah 2 4016492 This is a very strange concept. The CA grapes are picked at night (wierd), then they're cooled so they're just shy of freezing (33 degrees F, incredibly weird), then they're trucked cross-country (weirder), in 18-ton loads (really?) and fermented into wine (weirdest of all). Imagine the flavor. They said they're going to "experiment with using a technique called Cold Soaking." Whether they want to or not. http://www.citywinery.com/faq.html Sun Sep 07 22:25:13 -0700 2008 4016067 18222 maria lorraine 3 4017518 I've made many a grape from CA into great wine in Quebec, and I can tell you that whatever they are doing works well. The freezing process does not seem to harm the grapes and the thawing process is similar to a short cold soaking. Mon Sep 08 10:22:56 -0700 2008 4016492 208595 The Chemist 4 4017596 You say say "that whatever they are doing works well" -- City Winery hasn't opened yet so I presume you haven't had the chance to try the wines yet. Did you catch the cost --- between $25-40 per bottle? There are too many problems with City Winery's winemaking methods for me to get onboard with this: nighttime picking, transport, bruising, off-flavors and spontaneous ferms as the grapes get even slightly above freezing. 18-ton containers of wine grapes traveling 3000 miles cross-country? This operation sounds like it's selling the "idea" of making wine. Mon Sep 08 10:43:10 -0700 2008 4017518 18222 maria lorraine 5 4019795 I get grapes from M&M and Brehm who use a similar method to get grapes from regions like California (or even Italy) to my icy local. $25-40 per bottle is ridiculous, I agree. This is 5-10x what it costs me per bottle to do it on my own. And really, it's not that time consuming a hobby to necessitate so much outside help. Really, you are looking at maybe 5 full days a year and a lot of waiting in between. I suppose the major advantage that these City Winery people have is their expertise and the oak barrels, which admittedly are more affordable to use when making huge batches than small ones for personal consumption. Ignoring the price, I can guarentee you that the method of picking and transporting the grapes is not a problem and will not hurt the grapes in any way. The grapes might even benifit from the freezing and thawing as it's similar to a short cold soak and maceration. Many many many people make wine in this way. Tue Sep 09 06:05:00 -0700 2008 4017596 208595 The Chemist 6 4020748 The longer the time between grape picking and fermenting, the more problems that can develop. That's what I've learned from being around lots of harvests and ferms and talking to winemakers. I've also tasted and judged wines with winemakers who have spectacularly acute palates, and who can pick up on spontaneous ferm errors, and other "off" flavors that occurred because fermentation was delayed. Certainly you can make wine out of these grapes that have journeyed cross country. Throw a little yeast on them, and you'll get wine. The grapes will likely begin to ferment from the wild yeasts even before adding yeast, but you'll need to add some additional yeast so the ferm doesn't get stuck. But I'm not at all sure of the quality of the wine made from these grapes. I'm in full agreement, Chemist Aaron, that it's very easy to make wine at home. You can use the cheapest of equipment, and pertinent to this thread, no $4500 investment. I've only made Cabernet, using winery equipment and under the watchful eye of a great Napa winemaker who told me that if you can't make Cabernet, you can't make anything -- so I started out easy! I admit to being a bit of a traditionalist -- I like the fruit to be picked and immediately sorted twice, and then straight into the ferm tanks it goes. But I like just-picked tomatoes, corn and peaches, too. I think the flavors are better. When fruit sits after picking, the chance of off-flavors increases with every hour. The weight of fruit sitting and jostling about creates bruising and splitting, and as a result, off-flavors. The fruit starts a spontaneous ferm, and the wild yeasts that begin the ferm often create awful flavors that then require corrective action. I'm not fond of freezing -- it splits the grapes (the water expands) and breaks the continuous sugar/water solution. Then, there are the energy costs of trucking, another issue. For what City Winery is charging, you could fly out to Napa Valley, buy a ton of grapes, go to a micro-crush operation and you'll have have better wine and money left over. I understand you may not agree with me. That's OK. I'm very glad you're making wine at home. More power to you. Tue Sep 09 11:15:55 -0700 2008 4019795 18222 maria lorraine 7 4020818 One thing we can certainly agree on is that this city winery is charging insane prices. =D Tue Sep 09 11:33:29 -0700 2008 4020748 208595 The Chemist 7 4021845 maria lorraine -- Clearly much has to do with how the grapes are handled. It is/was quite common for machine harvested grapes to also be crushed in the field, and for the must to then get trucked to the winery. I know many Napa and Sonoma wineries, for example, who were using Central Coast Chardonnay (Santa Barbara, San Luis Obispo, and Monterey counties) that was machine harvested, field crushed and trucked in tankers to the winery. Many a winemaker told me they would add K2S2O5 to prevent fermentation en route, but the drive was equivalent to the time they would have let the Chard have "skin contact time" anyway, so when the trucks arrived, it was straight into the press, and fermentation vessel (barrel or stainless). Just another POV. Is it the best way of doing things? No, probably not. But the wineries which did/are doing this have received lots of Gold Medals and 90+ point reviews . . . . Cheers, Jason Tue Sep 09 17:28:22 -0700 2008 4020748 28122 zin1953 5 4020137 >>> This operation sounds like it's selling the "idea" of making wine. <<< Nor mine, but why is it so different than Crushpad? Let's not forget that Warren Winiarski used to make wine at a Colorado winery from fresh California grapes trucked across the Rockies. Dozens of non-California wineries have been making wine from California grapes for decades -- in locations as diverse as New York's Finger Lakes, Cape Cod, Texas, Iowa, etc., etc., etc. And let's not forget the hundreds (if not thousands) of refrigerated box cars that shipped wine grapes back east to home winemakers during Prohibition . . . . Tue Sep 09 08:18:05 -0700 2008 4017596 28122 zin1953 6 4020853 It's pretty similar to Crushpad. Tue Sep 09 11:45:25 -0700 2008 4020137 18222 maria lorraine 6 4022204 And good wine it was. Unfortunately, the CO vitacultural group looked down on this, since it was CA juice. For a while, they had two labels, with Vail Valley being the CO grapes. Still nice wine. Hunt Tue Sep 09 19:46:55 -0700 2008 4020137 11329 Bill Hunt 7 4022499 If anybody could do it, Warren could. Tue Sep 09 22:53:25 -0700 2008 4022204 18222 maria lorraine 8 4025222 The name of the CA-juice label came to me today - Plum Creek. It was quite good wine. I had one of my last bottles of their Grand Mesa Cab Franc recently with friends who had toured the area with me almost 15 years ago. This wine had been cellared for 14 years and was wonderful. The joy was a tad fleeting, but we all caught it in the glass. It faded, in front o us, but hey, it was a Cab Franc, made in CO with CA juice and was designed to be consumed far sooner. Just glad the the right people were there to share it with. Sorry that I could not conjur up the name earlier, Hunt Wed Sep 10 18:49:29 -0700 2008 4022499 11329 Bill Hunt 3 4020122 ml? Why is it "weird" that the grapes were harvested at night??? Tue Sep 09 08:13:35 -0700 2008 4016492 28122 zin1953 4 4020892 The same reason you pick berries or any other fruit in the morning -- the plant's light/dark cycle and corresponding nutrient/water uptake. "After light, before heat." Vineyards in especially hot areas like Sicily or Modesto often harvest about 4 in the morning, though. I've been wondering if these City Winery grapes are Modesto fruit. Tue Sep 09 11:58:20 -0700 2008 4020122 18222 maria lorraine 5 4021813 Do you remember when R.H. Phillips (Yolo) was night-harvesting their grapes? Machine-picked . . . can run the harvester through the vineyard at any time, so they picked (generally) starting between 2 and 4am. Same concept. Tue Sep 09 17:21:07 -0700 2008 4020892 28122 zin1953 6 4022907 Night harvesting in more commonplace than ever. Take a trip through Carneros, Sonoma Valley, or just about any appellation in the North Coast tonight and you'll see light rigs dotting the vineyards. It's no longer limited to machine harvesting. It's easier on the workers, makes full use of available time during an impacted harvest (such as this one), and ensures that grapes make it to the winery cool Wed Sep 10 07:00:11 -0700 2008 4021813 13690 Sam B 7 4028425 Maybe I should be driving around in the wee hours to catch this! But I don't need to be. Before I ever made Cab, and since, I asked some great winemakers what I should do to make the best wine possible. And, the metaphor I was given was something like, the Olympic gold medal goes to the person who pays attention to tiny specifics. Sure, picking at night is done. Would the fruit be better picked a few hours later after it's light and before the heat of the day? Everybody I talked to thinks so. Is the flavor of the wine better when the grapes haven't been sitting and started to bruise and crack under the weight? Under those conditions, is there a higher chance that wild yeasts will penetrate the cracks in the skin and begin to ferment the grapes? Is there a good chance that the flavors created by wild yeasts aren't going to be entirely beneficial -- in fact really kind of wretched --and require corrective action? Will the corrective action be detrimental to the wine's flavor? Will the wine be better if I don't have to add a preservative so the grapes can withstand trucking? Will the wine be better if I do two sorts, not just one, even though one is easier and cheaper? Does the wine taste better if it's harvested by hand? Does a slower, cooler fermentation produce better flavors than the hotter, more efficient ferm that gallops along so the tank can again be used quickly? Well, sadly, the answer to all these questions is yes. Tiny incremental differences add up to a large difference in flavor. I know night-picking is done, but my belief is that, in other than the hottest climes, that practice is good for scheduling and bad for the wine. Just like fast ferms. I truly believe there is an incremental fall-off in flavor when it's done. But I understand time constraints, and how the grapes sometimes must come in now and that baby must be born. But details matter, to the great chef, the cabinetmaker, the musician, and to the winemaker who wishes to make really good wine. OK, off soapbox now! <g> Thanks for listening. Thu Sep 11 21:29:41 -0700 2008 4022907 18222 maria lorraine 8 4029093 Keep in mind, maria, that a) there is a HUGE difference between producing R.H. Phillips "Night Harvest" Sauvignon Blanc in Yolo county and "Yelping Beagle" in Napa; b) in MY experience -- most night harvesting is also machine harvesting (which often includes field pressing, too) . . . Even when we are talking hand harvesting, as opposed to mechanical, you seem to be describing concerns best associated with picking between 8:00 pm and midnight, and then having the grapes sit around until dawn. Grapes are picked and sent to the winery. Period. This is no less true for grapes picked at (e.g.) three in the morning, as it is for grapes that are harvested at nine in the morning . . . when the truck is full, the truck goes to the winery. What is/where is the difference? YES, you are absolutely right: grapes should be crushed as soon as feasible after picking, and excessively long delays are detrimental to wine quality. But grapes that are hand-harvested starting at, say, 7:00 in Healdsburg, get to the St. Helena winery at . . . when??? How long does it take a picking crew to fill up a semi full of empty bins? How long to fill a flat-bed full of one ton Macro bins? How long does it take fill up a single gondola towed behind a pickup truck? Timing is the same, whether harvested at 3am or 9am . . . Cheers, Jason Fri Sep 12 07:50:57 -0700 2008 4028425 28122 zin1953 9 4030554 <<you seem to be describing concerns best associated with picking between 8:00 pm and midnight, and then having the grapes sit around until dawn>> That's not what I was referring to. To isolate this one specific variable that affects wine flavor, I was referring the small difference in flavor between grapes picked at midnight, and grapes picked at 8 AM. <<Grapes are picked and sent to the winery. Period. This is no less true for grapes picked at (e.g.) three in the morning, as it is for grapes that are harvested at nine in the morning . . . when the truck is full, the truck goes to the winery. What is/where is the difference?>> We have no disagreement here. I wasn't assuming any delay with night-picked fruit arriving at the winery. Transit time to the winery doesn't change (at least, not by much) with a change in the hour of picking. A delay may occur if the grapes are trucked a good distance. But that's a separate variable that affects flavor. As is mechanical vs. hand-harvesting. Above, I quickly rattled off a whole list of tiny things that affect a wine's flavor once the grapes are grown and ripe. A lot of other issues affect flavor too. Some are in the vineyard -- have you ever tasted the rather marked flavor differences in wine when the same grapes were simply trellised differently in nearby rows? Amazing. Different yeasts can produce very different flavors, once again, even with the same grapes. Stainless steel vs. barrel ferms are another variable, and obviously there are dramatically different flavors that result from different aging treatments. All these tiny differences add up to a big difference in flavor. But I know you know that. It's all quality control. Each winery, each winemaker, even an aspiring garagiste, makes a choice about which variables work for them, either from a financial or flavor or labor standpoint or all three. Quality control on 5 variables or 10 or 50 -- what can you do? But that presumes the winery or winemaker is aware of how each variable affects flavor. (I realize I may be not merely preaching, but singing, to the choir!) Getting back to City Winery...If I lived in NY, I'd find the best NY-grown fresh-picked grapes I could and make wine from them. Which means I'd probably head out to Long Island, maybe the Finger Lakes. P.S.: I like "Yelping Beagle"! Too bad Cache Phloe is taken. That always cracked me up. Best, Maria Fri Sep 12 15:34:42 -0700 2008 4029093 18222 maria lorraine 2 4020118 Home winemakers in New York, Boston, and throughout the East have long made wine from fresh California grapes. (Think Prohibition!) Tue Sep 09 08:12:53 -0700 2008 4016067 28122 zin1953 1 4017508 This wine pod really just tries to make home wine making a bit easier and lot more gimmicky. Making good wine at home is easy. For anyone interested in the hobby, I would suggest starting with good quality white wine kits, ie. something from cellar craft, and picking up a bundled equipment package from a local wine making supply store (which are now just about everywhere). You are looking at about $100 for all the equipment and about the same for 20 L of finished wine. Works out to about $4 a bottle. With good kits and a bit of practice (say one batch), you can make a white wine which would sell for easily $15 retail. For reds, personally, I would avoid kits and go straight to frozen must available from M&M, Brehm, or many other manufactures. One you have done a kit, using real grapes is only slightly harder, the principals are the same. For $130 you can get 50 pounds of grapes that would normally produce wines that sell for easily $30 a bottle. You might think that it is hard to compete with the quality of commercial vineyards, but in my opinion, a good home wine maker can do more with the same grapes than most commercial wineries. Why? Small batches afford attention to detail. For an amazing resource on everything about making your own wine, check out winepress.us Aaron Mon Sep 08 10:17:34 -0700 2008 4014217 208595 The Chemist 2 4028403 Forget about wine kits. Do it right. Use fresh grapes. If you can't get fresh grapes then make beer. Thu Sep 11 21:14:17 -0700 2008 4017508 144441 pasoguy 1 4935993 Old thread, I know. I saw the Winepod in use last week in Charlottetown, PEI at the Culinary Institute. Very cool product, with a high price tag. Might consider buying one with a group of friends. Tue Aug 11 07:05:01 -0700 2009 4014217 1100830 jpaik