555205 Sat Sep 06 13:36:24 -0700 2008 24 34 Wine 0 4013614 We had a fun idea to do a wine tasting and have the real grapes available for tasters to see and taste (we know they aren't really great eating, but the idea is fun). The season would seem to be right for finding them, but where? We are in South Orange County, CA, but overnight FedEx in a coldpack might work. Has anyone ever discovered a place where you can the basic varietals in single cluster quantity? We only need a little of each. Sat Sep 06 13:36:24 -0700 2008 11405 Midlife 1 4013660 There you are: wine grapes ( by the box ) http://www.homebrewit.com/aisle/1170 Sat Sep 06 13:59:25 -0700 2008 4013614 28703 RicRios 2 4014190 Thanks RicRios. I did find that link but 32-36 lbs per varietal is a whole lot of grapes and well over $100 for a 4-5 variety tasting for a smallish group. I might give them a call, though, to see if there's a way to make something more viable work......... But I also noticed it says "pick up only - no delivery" and they're in Indiana. Sat Sep 06 18:41:24 -0700 2008 4013660 11405 Midlife 3 4014518 C'mon Midlife, a real wino won't think it twice! Sat Sep 06 22:05:38 -0700 2008 4014190 28703 RicRios 4 4015389 OK....... fly to Indiana; pay baggage charges for maybe 150 lbs of grapes that will be mush by the time they get home. Sounds about right. I like the Temecula idea better. I have a friend who grows Cab grapes in his backyard, so I've got that one locked up. Sun Sep 07 12:18:14 -0700 2008 4014518 11405 Midlife 3 4014894 If wineries pay well over $2000/ton, how much do you want to pay at retail? Sun Sep 07 07:58:41 -0700 2008 4014190 28122 zin1953 4 4015382 $2000 a ton would be $1.00 a pound, unless I'm spacing out. I'd probably go several times that if I could find what I need. Jason, in your experience, how badly will it compromise the grapes for this experience if we freeze them from whenever we get them until the event (if it's more than a few days)?? I'm assuming we'll be getting different varieties from different places at different times. Sun Sep 07 12:15:09 -0700 2008 4014894 11405 Midlife 5 4015453 Midlife, I'd like to help you out here, but I'm not sure why you would want fresh wine grapes. All red wine grapes taste pretty much the same -- you can't detect varietal differences from the fresh fruit alone, if that's what you were hoping. And a ripe wine grape tastes just like a table grape -- sweet, but with more tartness and tannin from the tough skin. Sun Sep 07 12:51:34 -0700 2008 4015382 18222 maria lorraine 6 4015555 Actually, a friend asked me if I could put this together for a wine group he belongs to. I told him that the grapes will not taste like their finished end-products but I think he just feels it would be fun and interesting to bring 'the vineyard' to his group. I wasn't aware that a cab grape doesn't taste different from a Zin grape. If that's true then it may just be whether or not they LOOK the same. I'm beginning to think this will take much more effort than it's final result will be worth, but tend to like a challenge like this. Sun Sep 07 13:45:26 -0700 2008 4015453 11405 Midlife 7 4015732 This may seem wacky, but wine grapes don't taste like the wines they make. They taste sweet -- that's about it, like a table grape with a lot of seeds and tough, thick skin. Can your friend detect a flavor difference between the two red table grapes Flame and Red Globe? It's not a perfect analogy but just like grapes don't taste like wine, flour doesn't taste like bread -- it's the process of *transformation* that creates bread or wine. The difference in taste between white flour and whole-wheat flour is negligible, but the difference in the bread they each make is easily discernible. Winemaking potentiates the flavor differences between grapes, just like breadmaking potentiates the differences between flours. But even that isn't entirely accurate because the process of winemaking adds its own flavors. Yeast creates flavors all by itself. ML and oak barrels and a host of other things add additional flavors. If you really wanted to pursue this, you could attempt to convince some wineries -- right in the middle of harvest, BTW -- to sell/give you a couple of clusters of grapes of each varietal, and then stick them in a shipper and FedEx them to your friend. Do that for five different varietals and it'd be a sizeable cost for little payoff in flavor differences between the grapes. I'd recommend to your friend that he visit a winery that has a display of different varietals -- one short row of Cab, one short row of Petite Sirah, one row of Merlot, one row of Zin -- what we call a "petting zoo" in these parts. He can then taste a grape of each varietal to see if he can detect any flavor differences between them. Sun Sep 07 15:17:26 -0700 2008 4015555 18222 maria lorraine 8 4020718 I've had and experiences that differ slightly. I ran into some muscat grapes and mourvedre grapes once at Whole Foods. The mourvedre were alright, and especially tannic. But the muscat grapes were great, and actually tasted exactly like Alsatian Muscat. Of course, I've always though that wine tasted grapey, so what do I know. Tue Sep 09 11:08:10 -0700 2008 4015732 86802 vanillagorilla 9 4020831 Muscat is the true exception, and Gewurtz comes close after that. By the way, yesterday I fired off emails to a few Napa Valley winemaker friends, and nearly all said they can't tell the difference in flavor between Cab, Cab Franc and Merlot grapes (their examples). Only one winemaker -- and this guy has one of the most acute palates I've ever encountered (talk about flavor chemistry!) -- says he thinks he can tell the diff between the flavor of Cab and Merlot grapes on a good day. To be sure, there are subtle visual differences in berry size, cluster formation, and grape leaves. Tue Sep 09 11:37:33 -0700 2008 4020718 18222 maria lorraine 6 4019040 Actually ripe wine grapes are far more sweet than your typical table grape. Ripe wine grapes come in at 26-30 brix, whereas the typical Thompson seedless usually comes in closer to 20 brix. The acidity and tannins balance the additional sweetness and mask that sweetness. Mon Sep 08 18:58:48 -0700 2008 4015453 220202 orlwine 7 4019136 Ripe table grapes are the same sweetness as low-alcohol wine grapes. Wine grapes as a whole are still sweeter, yes, and the acid and tannins in the grapes mollify the sweetness, as you say. 15% is the minimum Brix for table grapes, though 20% Brix is desired. Table grape palatability is measured by a Brix/acid ratio, BTW. Thompson grapes come in about 18% Brix, with a sugar/acid ratio of 20:1. Wine grapes range from 20% Brix or 11.5% ABV to 28 Brix or 16.1% ABV. Mon Sep 08 19:27:55 -0700 2008 4019040 18222 maria lorraine 7 4019950 Most Thompsons I've measured come in between 16-18 Brix. Tue Sep 09 07:06:31 -0700 2008 4019040 28122 zin1953 8 4020587 There's a formal industry classification of Thompsons, first by Brix level, then Brix/acid ratio. Tue Sep 09 10:30:52 -0700 2008 4019950 18222 maria lorraine 5 4019948 A $1/pound at the PRODUCER level. Not retail. Tue Sep 09 07:05:40 -0700 2008 4015382 28122 zin1953 1 4015351 You should call up some of the wineries in Temecula. They're just about harvesting right now, so the grapes are ripe. Sun Sep 07 11:56:32 -0700 2008 4013614 207021 sbonagof 1 4015915 OK, South Orange County is a ways south, but the Kendall-Jackson tasting room/welcome center in Windsor (south end of Sonoma) has a working vineyard, with most common domestically planted varietals. They also have a full kitchen and some meeting rooms. The experience that you are trying to put together is one reason that I heartily recommend the K-J center, when one is heading to Sonoma, regardless of what one thinks of their wines. Being able to just pick and taste is great fun and educational, as well. Same for their two "sensory gardens." Besides, they do have some good wines in their portfolio (used to be "Artists and Artisans," or similar). I doubt that they would be able to sell you the grapes, as their vineyard is not that large. Maybe someone, like Cline, who does a lot of varietals would make you a deal. Also, as ML mentions, there are but the tiniest of unique elements that come through from the grapes, with the exception of Viognier and Gewürztraminer, they mostly taste like white, or red grapes. Still, tasting each varietal is worth the effort, even if you can't pick up on the differences. Still I applaud your endeavor, but don't have any ideas on implementations of it. Good luck, and let us know how it goes. Hunt Sun Sep 07 16:58:12 -0700 2008 4013614 11329 Bill Hunt 1 4015931 It's really beginning to sound like this is a bad idea. The only thing the group would get to do is see clusters of different grape varieties and that may be enough for them. Thanks all for your thoughts. If anyone has a really good, simple way to get the grapes I'm still up for that part of it. Sun Sep 07 17:09:33 -0700 2008 4013614 11405 Midlife 2 4016045 What about contacting Hamilton Oaks Vineyard in eastern Orange County (Trabuco Canyon) ? Sun Sep 07 18:05:55 -0700 2008 4015931 18222 maria lorraine 3 4018996 Actually, I just contacted Newport Beach Winery (in the Back Bay) and they just finished their harvest this weekend. I can probably get some grapes from them, but I'd have to freeze them for a couple of weeks. Hamilton Oaks is a good idea too. Thanks. Mon Sep 08 18:38:33 -0700 2008 4016045 11405 Midlife 4 4021459 Hamilton Oaks just crushed this weekend too. Looks like an unusually early harvest. Need to follow the harvest North to find grapes. Tue Sep 09 14:45:24 -0700 2008 4018996 11405 Midlife 1 4020725 Something else you might try is juice made from the grapes and unfermented. I know Whole Foods carries juice made from Cabernet, Merlot, and Chardonnay. I'm sure if you look around you might find others. Much cheaper and easier to source than the grapes. Tue Sep 09 11:09:48 -0700 2008 4013614 86802 vanillagorilla 2 4022219 Wow, That's an interesting idea. I guess that I missed that aisle at MY Whole Foods. Gotta' poke around more. Sounds like fun for a wine group tasting. Thanks, Hunt Tue Sep 09 19:52:46 -0700 2008 4020725 11329 Bill Hunt