553813 Mon Sep 01 05:48:34 -0700 2008 70 31 Home Cooking 0 4001040 September 2008 COTM: Pleasures of the Vietnamese Table by Mai Pham and Into the Vietnamese Kitchen by Andrea Nguyen Welcome to the links thread for the September 2008 Cookbook of the Month. You may wish to bookmark this thread for future reference, as it contains links to all the other threads for these cookbooks. Instead of having another thread for general discussion, recipe planning, links, and previous picks and pans, let's use this one. I'll copy over the links posted earlier, as well as some additional ones. Others are welcome of course to post more links. Here's the link to the voting announcement thread: http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/549161 Here are the links for the threads for the full length recipe reviews. I spent a lot of time looking at how the books were organized, whether there were overlaps of recipes, and generally thinking about how to organize the threads this month. After much deliberation, I decided to go with combining the books into each of the threads (rather than having different threads for the two books), which I think helps maintain the spirit of COTM of "cooking together", even though we are using two books. I hope that what I've come up with isn't too complicated and is at least somewhat intuitive. I've put in more detailed descriptions in each of the threads to help guide what goes where, but, of course, at the end of the day, it's the cooking that counts, and if some reports get put in the "wrong" place, it's just not a big deal, I think. There are actually very few recipes that are in both books, for what it's worth. If you notice that I've missed something or that something doesn't make sense, please post about it here and I'll try to get it fixed today. Sauces, Condiments, Garnishes, etc. http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/553824 Starters, Snacks & Salads http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/553835 Soups http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/553831 Rice, Noodles, "Banh" and More http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/553833 Poultry & Eggs http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/553819 Meat & Charcuterie http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/553818 Seafood http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/553820 Vegetables & Vegetarian Dishes http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/553825 Desserts & Sweet Drinks http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/553821 Happy Cooking! Mon Sep 01 05:48:38 -0700 2008 10985 MMRuth 1 4001046 Some links posted by others in the other thread: Pham: Lemon Grass Restaurant http://www.lemongrassrestaurant.com/cookbooks.htm http://www.ichef.com/news.cfm?itemid=130692 Lemongrass Beef Recipe http://splendidtable.publicradio.org/recipes/meat_lemongrassbeef.shtml Pham's recipes on Epicurious http://www.epicurious.com/tools/searchresults?search=vietnamese+grilled+pork+mai+pham Pham's recipes on Food and Wine.com--pad see yew and chicken soup with jasmine rice and ginger http://www.foodandwine.com/recipes/pad-see-yew http://www.foodandwine.com/recipes/chicken-soup-with-jasmine-rice-and-ginger Salad http://www.recipesource.com/fgv/salads/21/rec2149.html Dipping Sauce and Table Salad http://www.mercurynews.com/recipes/ci_5377266?nclick_check=1 Andrea Nguyen's site: http://www.vietworldkitchen.com/ There are over 40 recipes on Nguyen's site: http://www.vietworldkitchen.com/recipe.htm Older thread that was helpful: http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/392330 Mon Sep 01 05:53:19 -0700 2008 4001040 10985 MMRuth 2 4016828 Mai Pham wrote (writes?) an occasional column in the San Francisco Chronicle called "East to West" that could be a wonderful resource for those following along "online only" this month. I hope this link works, but if not, you can try an advance search at sfgate.com where you search their entire archives for the byline "Mai Pham" to bring up her pieces. There are a couple on Asian vegetables, herbs, cookware, etc. that could be of general interest this month, too, though I haven't delved into them much. ~TDQ http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/qws/as/qr?term=%22mai+pham%22&smode=and&Submit=S&Go.x=26&Go.y=12&Go=Search&scope=byline&source=&dmode=preset&period=all&minm=01&mind=01&miny=2008&maxm=12&maxd=31&maxy=2008 Mon Sep 08 06:09:52 -0700 2008 4001046 12005 The Dairy Queen 2 4044960 I have a question about the Vietnamese cookbooks chosen this month and the participants' experiences with them. I used to really love Vietnamese cooking but got quite tired of it (as did my husband) because of the lack of flavor variation. Everything we ate at restaurants seemed to taste the same - star anise, 5 spice powder, lemon grass and fish sauce were verrrry predominant and it seemed as if all dishes contained them. I think that it was also overkill on our part, as we were eating at a favorite restaurant (or getting take-out from there) for months and months and I think we O.D.ed. Is this true of the current COTMs? I see all the enthusiasm for the books and recipes and it's contagious, but I can't get over the worry that it'll bring back those memories of those flavorings. PS: This doesn't apply to banh mi, as we both continue to eat them with gusto. Thu Sep 18 11:56:32 -0700 2008 4001046 10245 oakjoan 3 4045276 I've now made 11 recipes, 10 from Nguyen, 1 from Pham. And that's not counting sauces, dipping and otherwise. I've used 5-spice powder once, star anise and lemon grass never, and fish sauce just about every time. There are quite a few recipes online. Why don't you just try one and see what you think. If it brings back bad memories, you can call out for pizza. Thu Sep 18 14:20:23 -0700 2008 4044960 11407 JoanN 3 4045279 While I agree that fish sauce is a predominant component of Vietnamese cooking, the other seasonings aren't as ubiquitous. As Mai Pham mentions in Vietnamese Cuisine: An Overview, the three main factors are fish sauce, "the high consumption of rau thom (aromatic herbs)", and eating meat and seafood "wrapped in lettuce or rice paper and dipped in sauce". If this helps, here's a list of dishes I made or have bookmarked to make. None contain lemongrass, and only the first two had star anise or 5-spice: Roast Duck and Egg Noodle Soup Grilled Five-Spice Chicken Condiments - Vietnamese Dipping Sauces, Marinated Chiles, Soy-Lime Dipping Sauce, Scallion Oil, Marinated Daikon and Carrots, Vietnamese Bean Dipping Sauce, Caramel Sauce, etc. Sweet and Sour Shrimp Soup with Fresh Herbs Hue Chicken Salad Cucumber Salad Roasted Eggplant with Scallion Oil Banana Blossom Salad with Chicken Cabbage Salad with Shrimp and Pork Green Mango Salad with Grilled Beef Vietnamese Spring Rolls Salad Rolls (goi cuon) Hanoi Shrimp Cakes Steamed Rice Cakes with Shrimp Rice Rolls with Shrimp and Wood-Ear Mushrooms Scallion Noodles Wok-Seared Noodles with Chicken and Mushrooms Saigon Crepes (banh xeo) Rice Noodles with Fresh Herbs Hanoi Noodles with Grilled Pork Rice Noodle Stir-Fry Noodle Pillows Grilled Shrimp on Sugarcane Bean Thread Noodles with Crab Vietnamese Fried Rice Ginger Chicken Shaking Beef (bo luc lac) Steamed Bass with Soy Sauce, Ginger, and Scallions Caramelized Garlic Shrimp Chili Clams with Black Beans and Basil Salad Rolls with Jicama, Peanuts and Basil Mustard Greens with Garlic Water Spinach with Tofu Twice-Cooked Eggplant with Garlic and Basil Chopstick Beans in Garlic Obviously a long list and I'll never make them all. This is probably less than half of the recipes in the book, so you can see you have a lot of options that don't contain star anise or five-spice powder or lemongrass (which my husband doesn't like either). Thu Sep 18 14:21:24 -0700 2008 4044960 10271 Rubee 3 4045615 I'm a little too worn out right now to count up how many of the dishes I've made, but I can say with great certainty that I've only made one with lemongrass, and only one with 5 spice (and I've made pretty many). Most (but not all) do indeed have fish sauce. I started this month off thinking that twice a week would be plenty from the books, but both my husband and I have found ourselves loving this food so much that we want more more more. Do I think if we kept eating this much of it over months and months I'd get tired of it? probably. But heck, I can't eat pizza two nights in a row (a food I love) and my husband thinks that is crazy. Both books are really very good (I'm especially fond of the Pham book, whereas JoanN is falling hard for Nguyen) and produce great results for very little work. Thu Sep 18 16:50:17 -0700 2008 4044960 56762 LulusMom 3 4045628 You are eating at bad restaurants, IMO. Star anise and 5 spice powder are much more common in some Chinese cuisines, put in an occasional appearance in Vietnamese cooking. Thu Sep 18 16:55:49 -0700 2008 4044960 11995 pikawicca 4 4046138 Well, I don't know about the bad restaurants. The one we used to frequent used to be a really popular place and apparently was quite famous. It started out mostly serving pho and then added many more dishes to the menu. I loved it because it was the only local place in Oakland that served fish cakes. Haven't been there in at least 3 years now. They actually had a dish called Five Spice Chicken. I can't believe that all the Vietnamese restaurants I ate in over a period of several years were bad. Maybe, as I said in another post, it was because we just got tired of the flavorings because we ate at Vietnamese restaurants so frequently. Thanks for all the info you guys. I'll have to try some of the recipes. Thu Sep 18 20:55:00 -0700 2008 4045628 10245 oakjoan 5 4073289 how about Le Cheval in Oakland? TRY the salt and pepper squid or crab, and the watercress salad with tofu . . . (I miss Le Cheval all the time.) Tue Sep 30 18:38:39 -0700 2008 4046138 11989 pitu 1 4001274 My fish sauce journey (in response to MMRuth's request here: http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/553820#4001222 ) I had some fish sauce in the fridge that I'd been using for I don't know how long. It was very thick and kinda grayish. I used it to make Nguyen's Simple Dipping Sauce before I read her copy on just what fish sauce ought to look like. Mine most definitely was not the amber red liquid she described. I was too lazy to go to Chinatown that day, so I checked to see what they had in Fairway and found Roland brand fish sauce, which looked about right. I don't know what it was I'd been using, but this really made a huge difference in the flavor of the dipping sauce. Not as overwhelmingly salty, far more complex in flavor, a different--and more pleasing--texture entirely, and a lot prettier to look at. Nguyen says that she developed and tested all her recipes using Viet Huong's Three Crabs brand fish sauce and a few days later I did go to (Manhattan's) Chinatown and found it at Asia Market on Mulberry between Bayard and Canal. I did a taste test comparing the Roland and the Three Crabs and must say I didn't notice a great deal of difference between the two. The Roland is a bit paler and the Three Crabs a bit saltier and with a stronger aroma--but only a bit. The other brand Nguyen recommends is Flying Lion's Phu Quoc. I don't have Pham's book. What does she recommend? Mon Sep 01 08:21:58 -0700 2008 4001040 11407 JoanN 2 4001588 She recommends for dipping sauces (these are made in Thailand): Viet Huong Flying Lion Phu Quoc Golden Boy And she says that "the more pungent products such as Squid, Tiparos and Saigon are better for cooking". She explains that "nuoc mam thuong" is "regular fish sauce" and nuoc mam kho is "cooking fish sauce". Edit: She also mentioned nuoc mam nhi which she explained is the "first extraction" of fish sauce, with 35 to 38% protein, and which is much more expensive. She added that in the U.S., it's hard to tell which kind is which due to lack of labeling standards, but that higher priced bottles with lighter colored sauce are usually better. Mon Sep 01 11:14:41 -0700 2008 4001274 10985 MMRuth 3 4001614 Thanks. That is interesting. Nguyen makes no distinction between "cooking" and "dipping" fish sauces. Mon Sep 01 11:28:28 -0700 2008 4001588 11407 JoanN 4 4002774 Pham also says that fish sauce made on the island of Phu Quoc is the best. My local Asian supermarket stocks a Vietnamese brand (can't remember the name) whic is manufactured in Phu Quoc so I bought that to use for dipping sauces. I also have a Thai one which I use for cooking. Tue Sep 02 02:06:40 -0700 2008 4001614 110146 greedygirl 3 4003669 Great! I bought a new fish sauce the last time I stocked up. I just checked and it turns out to be the Flying Lion Brand from Phu Quoc. Here's a picture of the label: Tue Sep 02 11:52:51 -0700 2008 4001588 10271 Rubee 4 4004078 I just checked and my Vietnamese fish sauce is Hung Thanh. The Thai one is called Ca Com, but bizarrely it also says Nuoc Mam Thuong Hang on the label, which I believe is Vietnamese for "high quality fish sauce". The Thai one is much darker than the Vietnamese one, which is more amber in colour. http://www.hungthanhfishsauce.com.vn/E-Home.htm (I really wanted to go to Phu Quoc island when we went to Vietnam in the Spring but just couldn't make it work with our itinerary. I regret not going now, not least because of the fish sauce!) Tue Sep 02 14:36:43 -0700 2008 4003669 110146 greedygirl 2 4004108 We use Three Crabs brand and Tiparos. I do follow her suggestions sometimes about using the stronger fish sauce in cooking, or I use more of the weaker to make up the difference. The deal with fish sauce is it should really be used to taste. There is a lot of leeway there. One thing to note: it never really tastes that fishy when mixed with other ingredients, so don't fear it! Tue Sep 02 14:47:50 -0700 2008 4001274 40489 P. Punko 3 4005132 I think Tiparos was the recommended brand when I did a Thai cooking course in Ko Lanta a couple of years ago. Wed Sep 03 03:51:35 -0700 2008 4004108 110146 greedygirl 2 4561733 JoanN, crosslinking a new thread about fish sauce recs, with this old thread: http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/598509 thanks again! Thu Apr 02 12:52:27 -0700 2009 4001274 12656 bigjeff 1 4001522 Here's a link to Pham's Ginger Chicken that LulusMom raved about: http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20010926&slug=ginger26 Mon Sep 01 10:37:59 -0700 2008 4001040 11407 JoanN 2 4008393 Sorry, guys. I led you astray here. After making the recipe according to this link and rereading LulusMom’s original post, I realized something wasn’t quite right. A kind COTMer who has the Pham book checked this Seattle Times version against the original and discovered there are sufficient differences in both technique and quantities of ingredients to alter the outcome of the dish. To make amends, I’m paraphrasing the original here: 1 2-inch piece fresh ginger 2/3 pound skinless, boneless chicken thighs or breasts cut into bite-sized strips 2 tablespoons vegetable oil 2 teaspoons minced garlic ¼ yellow onion, thinly sliced lengthwise 1 teaspoon chopped red chilies (or dried chili flakes) 1½ tablespoons fish sauce 2 teaspoons granulated sugar ¼ teaspoon salt ½ cup reduced-sodium chicken broth ½ tablespoon Caramel Sauce or 1 tablespoon light brown sugar 2 scallions, cut on the diagonal into 2-inch lengths 6 sprigs cilantro, cut into 1-inch pieces 1. Cut peeled ginger into 1/8-inch slices and mince enough slices to make 1 tablespoon. Marinate minced ginger and chicken for 30 minutes. 2. Heat oil. Add garlic, onion, and chilies and stir 10 seconds. Add chicken, reserved ginger slices, fish sauce, sugar, and salt and stir-fry for 2 to 3 minutes. 3. Add chicken stock and Caramel Sauce. Reduce heat to a simmer, cover, and cook 5 minutes. Uncover and cook until sauce has thickened slightly, about another 5 minutes. Stir in scallions and garnish with cilantro. Thu Sep 04 10:24:48 -0700 2008 4001522 11407 JoanN 1 4001604 Recipes from Pham's "Pleasures of the Vietnamese Table" on Epicurious: Vietnamese pho rice noodle soup with beef Vietnamese rice cakes in banana leaves Vietnamese dipping sauce (nuoc cham) Soy-lime dipping sauce (nuoc tuong pha) Chicken curry with sweet potatoes Grilled five-spice chicken Spicy Lemongrass Tofu http://www.epicurious.com/tools/searchresults?search=pleasures%20of%20the%20vietnamese%20table From Food and Wine: Chicken Soup with Jasmine Rice and Ginger Clay Pot Ginger Chicken Coconut-Curry Noodle Soup Pad See Yew Salmon Rice Bowl with Ginger-Lime Sauce Salt and Pepper Crab http://www.foodandwine.com/chefs/?chefid=D7F1605E-A55C-11D6-82B90002B3309983 Mon Sep 01 11:24:37 -0700 2008 4001040 10271 Rubee 2 4003832 Oops - sorry for the redundancy MMRuth (just noticed you already had listed these links). Tue Sep 02 13:01:26 -0700 2008 4001604 10271 Rubee 1 4005282 Darn! I am waiting for my copy of Pham's book to arrive... soon I hope. Wed Sep 03 06:19:24 -0700 2008 4001040 89969 moh 1 4007627 I had a serendipitous meeting last night in my local Asian supermarket with a really nice woman of Vietnamese origin. I was perusing the herb section, and wondering what the various bunches of greenery were as they aren't labelled. I asked one of the shop assistants, but they are Chinese, with poor English skills. Another customer heard me say the words "rau ram", and helpfully pointed out which herb I needed. We then had quite a lengthy discussion about Vietnamese food, as it turns out she has a stall selling Viet food at a London farmer's market. Anyway, to cut a long story short she was very interested in our project and might join the boards so she can follow our progress! She also offered to do a demonstration for us, before I explained that we're actually all over the place, and mainly not in the UK. It was very helpful to have someone explain what all the different herbs are - turns out I can get most of them here, which surprised me. Thu Sep 04 04:26:54 -0700 2008 4001040 110146 greedygirl 2 4007653 Great story, gg. Thanks for sharing. I wonder. Might it be possible to video her? CHOW has plenty of how-to videos on the site. Perhaps we COTMers could petition for a Vietnamese herb presentation. I think I get more flummoxed by greenery than anything else. Thu Sep 04 05:02:34 -0700 2008 4007627 11407 JoanN 3 4007694 That's a great idea! She has my e-mail address and hopefully will get in touch. i get very confused by all the herbs too. There were two different types of Asian basil at the market, for example. Thu Sep 04 05:37:28 -0700 2008 4007653 110146 greedygirl 2 4007665 Isn't it wonderful to meet really friendly and knowledgeable people at the market? How lucky you were. Thankfully at our local Asian market everything is labeled, both in English and several Asian languages. However, most of the clerks and workers have no English skills. If a video is not possible perhaps photos and descriprtions of the herbs and other vegetables and fruit could be posted in a sticky thread???? Thu Sep 04 05:13:26 -0700 2008 4007627 75332 Gio 2 4008539 I'm very lucky in that one of Lulu's little friends in playgroup is half Vietnamese, and I've become friends with his mother, who has offered to help with ingredients if I need it. She's also very excited by how much I'm loving the food so far (but not as excited as I am!). Thu Sep 04 11:02:04 -0700 2008 4007627 56762 LulusMom 2 4016766 I see that greedygirl has embraced (perhaps unknowingly, but, successfully nevertheless) Andrea Nguyen's shopping strategy #4 from page 336 ITKK "Ask fellow shoppers or the store staff for help. Be reluctant to chat and you will stay in the dark." Brava! ~TDQ Mon Sep 08 05:36:25 -0700 2008 4007627 12005 The Dairy Queen 1 4010218 Re: ingredients, here's a helpful link to the rice noodle brands that Andrea Nguyen recommends: http://www.vietworldkitchen.com/features/ricenoodle_brand.htm I took pics of some of the ingredients/labels I picked up, including a couple fresh herbs. The herbs are Vietnamese coriander "rau raum" on the left and on the right red perilla/shiso "rau tia tom"; Rooster ground chili paste (tuong ot toi) and La Bo De bean sauce (tuong hot); rice paper (banh trang). Fri Sep 05 00:18:14 -0700 2008 4001040 10271 Rubee 2 4010373 Such great photos Rubee! I'd love to know, for those of you who have seen both books, is one better than the other for reviewing the names of various fresh herbs and ingredients, with photos? Fri Sep 05 05:19:22 -0700 2008 4010218 89969 moh 3 4010396 Pham has several pages with drawings of the various herbs as well as a paragraph or two discussing each, offering a substitution at the end. I thought her discussion of the pantry ingredients was helpful and she offers brand suggestions as well. Few photos though. Can't wait to get home and start cooking. Fri Sep 05 05:37:41 -0700 2008 4010373 10985 MMRuth 3 4010529 Nguyen has a full-pages four-color photo of the herbs, but not of ingredients (except for noodles). Her discussion of the herbs is very thorough, divided into easy and hard to find, giving alternate names, explaining how to store. The four-color photo showing various kinds of noodles also has detailed descriptions and includes brand recommendations. Lots of good info on her Web site, too. More detail; more photos. http://www.vietworldkitchen.com/essentials.htm Fri Sep 05 06:39:18 -0700 2008 4010373 11407 JoanN 4 4010781 Andrea also has a guide on how to pronounce many of the ingredients which I have found helpful. Fri Sep 05 08:18:17 -0700 2008 4010529 10285 Candy 4 4011859 Thank you MMRuth and JoanN and Candy! I am anxiously awaiting the arrival of the Pham book. I really like Nguyen's website! Fri Sep 05 14:48:08 -0700 2008 4010529 89969 moh 1 4016814 Just catching up here. I hit up my farmers market yesterday and picked up some lemongrass, japanese eggplant, Thai chile, etc. I'm very excited about September COTM and can't wait to jump in. Tonight I'm planning on making Pham's catfish in a clay pot, which calls for 2 TBSP of sugar combined with a bit of water, which you cook 5-6 mins until it starts to brown. After a couple months of half-heartedly following my diet plan, I'm recommitting, which means, no sugar, only Splenda. I've checked through the sauces thread and seafood thread but haven't found any mentions of substituting Splenda for sugar. Any advice for me on this matter? (Perhaps someone has posted about it and I missed it in my hurried attempt to catch up?) I'm assuming Splenda won't carmelize? By the way, I was disappointed that neither Pham nor Nguyen has a recipe that calls for bitter melon, with which my farmers market was overflowing. Pham does discuss it in the ingredient section, at least. I found a recipe by Pham for "stuffed bitter melon" in this old article in the SF Chronicle about Asian vegetables that I plan to try later in the week. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/1998/10/14/FD11363.DTL&hw=&sn=089&sc=798 Are there bitter melon recipes in either book that I've missed? Is it not genuinely a Vietnamese vegetable or did the authors just exclude it because they didn't think it would appeal to Western tastes or be readily available? ~TDQ Mon Sep 08 06:03:34 -0700 2008 4001040 12005 The Dairy Queen 2 4016849 You are correct that Splenda will not carmelize. I think Pham recommends substituting brown sugar for the caramel sauce, which will of course give it a deeper flavor than Splenda, but I'd just go ahead and use a little Splenda if I were you. Mon Sep 08 06:21:43 -0700 2008 4016814 10985 MMRuth 3 4017067 I think Splenda is making a brown sugar now. Mon Sep 08 07:57:24 -0700 2008 4016849 10285 Candy 4 4017206 The Splenda brown sugar substitute is half sucralose, half brown sugar, so ½ teaspoon is 10 calories and 2 grams of carbs. Sweet'N Low makes a brown sugar substitute that has 2 calories per teaspoon. I know a lot of people object to Sweet'N Low for many different reasons, including taste. But I use Sweet'N Low Brown on my oatmeal, although not for baking, and have no problem with it. Mon Sep 08 08:44:32 -0700 2008 4017067 11407 JoanN 5 4017549 Thank you, everyone, for your (always helpful) comments! JoanN, thank you for the tip on Sweet N'Low brown sugar substitute. According to the Weight Watchers website, there is a product they list as "Sweet N Low Brown Zero Calories Sweetener" that is indeed, core! I will see if I can hunt that down. Unfortunately, the Splenda brown sugar substitute is not "core" (and therefore not a perfect fit for my diet plan) because, as JoanN says, it is half sugar. If I'm going to use artificial sweetener, I figure I might as well use the one that actually fits my diet plan, assuming, of course, it tastes ok. So, I will give the Sweet'N Low Brown a chance and see what I think. I hope I can find it at my local grocery store! ~TDQ Mon Sep 08 10:31:50 -0700 2008 4017206 12005 The Dairy Queen 6 4017602 Only once did I ever find Sweet'N Low Brown at a grocery store. Now I mail order it, two boxes at a time. I keep it in a small, air tight plastic container and it keeps forever--at least from one oatmeal season to the next. Mon Sep 08 10:44:58 -0700 2008 4017549 11407 JoanN 7 4017623 Ooohh...good to know. I just got off the phone from my grocer and he doesn't have it. (He only has the Splenda brown sugar). It's too late for tonight's catfish, I think, but I see that Amazon carries it (in packs of 12!) so, I think I'll go ahead and order that so I have it handy for the rest of the month. While I'm willing to drive all over town for authentic Vietnamese ingredients because I think that's fun, I'm not as willing to do it for artificial sweetener... So, Amazon it is! ~TDQ Mon Sep 08 10:54:22 -0700 2008 4017602 12005 The Dairy Queen 2 4079480 When you caramelize sugar, you are altering the molecular structure, and the resulting substance has fewer calories -- the fewer the more burnt it gets. The purpose of the caramelized sugar is to add a depth of flavor, not sweetness. How much caramelization you allow will determine the level of sweetness. Splenda and brown sugar miss the whole point. Much of vietnamese cuisine is adapted from french, where the browning of meat and vegetables was to add that caramelized flavor to the food (not to "keep the juices in" which is a myth). But browning food before cooking is not an extant practice in much of asia, so the vietnamese get that flavor by slightly burning the sugar instead. Interesting approach. Fri Oct 03 10:01:55 -0700 2008 4016814 55915 MartinDC 3 4079652 You know, if I didn't know better, I'd say you were pulling my leg! That is fascinating, especially about the fewer calories the more burnt it gets! Thank you for sharing that. However, Pham herself did recommend brown sugar as an acceptable alternative to the caramel sauce, so I'm going to hang my hat on that. At least for now. :) ~TDQ Fri Oct 03 11:05:51 -0700 2008 4079480 12005 The Dairy Queen 4 4306550 Basically the useful energy of the sugar (the sugar molecules) is gone when it gets turned into just plain carbon (burning). I imagine a lump of charcoal wouldn't have many calories because your body likely wouldn't do anything with it. And caramel sauce is so good! :) Thu Jan 08 01:37:19 -0800 2009 4079652 40489 P. Punko 1 4049792 Found a great website about Vietnamese herbs. Helpful pictures too: http://www.vietherbs.com/Viet_Herbs.html Sat Sep 20 12:52:08 -0700 2008 4001040 10271 Rubee 2 4050650 Rubee: At first glance that site did look terrific, but it froze my computer. I had to shut down & reboot. (>.<) Sun Sep 21 05:22:14 -0700 2008 4049792 75332 Gio 3 4050993 Oh, I'm sorry about that Gio! I didn't have a problem. Sun Sep 21 09:15:36 -0700 2008 4050650 10271 Rubee 4 4055051 That's OK.. no harm done. Tue Sep 23 09:35:51 -0700 2008 4050993 75332 Gio 1 4054922 Im wondering, can we have an assessment at the end of which book people preferred, by those who used both? Tue Sep 23 08:52:50 -0700 2008 4001040 11130 jen kalb 2 4054945 Sure - let's do a round up at the end of the month on this thread, so that we don't have too many going at once. Good idea. Tue Sep 23 08:58:03 -0700 2008 4054922 10985 MMRuth 3 4055052 I like this idea.... I find I'm using one more than the other.... I'll wait till the review. Tue Sep 23 09:36:39 -0700 2008 4054945 75332 Gio 1 4057507 I just want to say thanks to everyone for picking Vietnamese cuisine, even though I got started late and have only made a few recipes. I have the Pham book and I may get the Nguyen book eventually. In the meantime I can cook from her Web site. But without COTM I wouldn't have realized how accessible a cuisine this really is. Everything I've made has been delicious and not at all difficult. Now I'll have to go to some of the Vietnamese restaurants in the area to see how authentic my versions are! Wed Sep 24 07:24:34 -0700 2008 4001040 126235 NYCkaren 2 4061002 NYCKaren, I"m sure my feelings are already glaringly obvious, but I too want to thank everyone (especially whoever initially had the idea to cook with these books) for picking them for CotM. We've totally enjoyed almost everything we've made, and it just blows me away how simple the prep is. I bought the Pham book (and may end up buying the Nguyen too) and I know I'll be cooking from it long after the month is done. Thu Sep 25 09:43:36 -0700 2008 4057507 56762 LulusMom 3 4061440 Another good Vietnamese cookbook is The Foods of Vietnam by Nicole Routhier. The three I have (Pham, Nguyen and Routhier) complement each other nicely. Thu Sep 25 12:40:16 -0700 2008 4061002 10231 mirage 3 4062905 I've noticed that with COTM, a book is normally suggested for several months running before it gets chosen. It's like people take a few months to mull over the options. That definitely happened with Vietnamese (I suggested it when I first joined, having recently returned from a trip to Vietnam), and it's also been the case with Batali, Flexitarian and Glorious Foods of Greece. Based on my extensive research, it's only a matter of time before we get to Cradle of Flavour! Fri Sep 26 03:23:41 -0700 2008 4061002 110146 greedygirl 1 4067618 FYI, Andrea Nguyen is heading up the Asian Food Beyond Borders culinary forum in San Francisco from October 10-12. Here's the link: http://www.asianculinaryforum.org/ACF/Asian_Culinary_Forum_-_Home.html Sun Sep 28 10:11:05 -0700 2008 4001040 12307 dimsumgirl 1 4072434 Since we're at the end of the month, I'm taking up Jen Kalb's suggestion, asking folks to do a post mortem, and, if you've used both books, to discuss which one you preferred. Will try to keep this 'stickied' for a couple of days. Tue Sep 30 11:21:40 -0700 2008 4001040 10985 MMRuth 2 4073702 MMR--where do you want us to do the post-mortem--here in this thread or in another thread elsewhere? (can't find it) Thanks, ~TDQ Wed Oct 01 01:44:46 -0700 2008 4072434 12005 The Dairy Queen 3 4073738 Here, thanks. Wed Oct 01 03:10:32 -0700 2008 4073702 10985 MMRuth 2 4074024 I have both books and love them both, but I do find there's a lot of overlap between the two books with very similar recipes with minor adjustments here and there and am not sure I actually need them both. I am slightly partial to Pham, perhaps because I acquired it first. I give the edge to: Pham: better writing/better stories. I like the context it provides Nguyen: better photos (vs. Pham's b&w)--just stunning, really Pham: has a recipe for pho, which I really wanted and really intend to try (soon!) Nguyen: has that fabulous charcuterie section, which seems fabulous, but which I will likely never use Pham--I felt like I had better luck with her pantry/ingredient descriptions Nguyen--the beef stewed with lemongrass etc. was described by my husband as "the best thing I've ever made him", so, hard to compete with that. Hard to say, really, but if I had to choose one book to keep and one book to cull, I'd personally probably keep Pham. ~TDQ Wed Oct 01 07:18:01 -0700 2008 4072434 12005 The Dairy Queen 3 4074444 I have really loved this month, and so has my famly. I got both books from the library, but have already bought myself a copy of the Pham book. I agree with TDQ - the photos in the Nguyen book are amazing - just gorgeous. And I think it is a great book, but there is a simplicity to the Pham recipes that has worked really well for me. When we were first voting on what book/s to have for CotM, I remember someone describing these two books and saying the Pham book was sort of more Vietnamese home cooking while the Nguyen was somewhat fancier and more French. I assumed based on this that I'd prefer the Nguyen, but that isn't what happened. Don't get me wrong - I really think both are fabulous books, but my edge goes to Pham. Wed Oct 01 09:45:38 -0700 2008 4074024 56762 LulusMom 3 4081475 I continue to love the Pham book (and give it frequently as a present, with a bin of ingredients). I bought the Nguyen book, but got too busy this month to cook much . . . but I appreciate everyone's feedback that might drive me deeper into both of these books. deeeelighted that this month worked out so well for everyone! Sat Oct 04 10:06:19 -0700 2008 4074024 11989 pitu 2 4075116 Ironically enough, I've never really cooked a lot of Vietnamese food, most relying on mom and my aunt for my requests. What I really enjoyed and learned this month: With the layering of flavors, once the sauces and condiments are made, a lot of the recipes are really quite simple. I love the flavor profile of fish sauce with sugar and lime in just about everything. Meals come together quick because main ingredients are usually just a small amount of protein but a lot of herbs and raw vegetables. Lastly, Vietnamese is really a budget-friendly cuisine, especially picking everything up at the Asian store. Most pantry items last a long time and are inexpensive (for example, rice noodles/wrappers, fish sauce) and the majority of ingredients can be found fresh in the produce section. I love it, and mom has been really enjoying following along with this topic - she got a big kick out of the CH in Dubai who made the pho. Wed Oct 01 14:09:17 -0700 2008 4072434 10271 Rubee 3 4075138 And did you have a favorite book? I'm still debating internally! I plan to start keeping ground pork, chicken breasts and shrimp in my freezer, so that I can quickly whip up some of these dishes without going to the store. Wed Oct 01 14:18:29 -0700 2008 4075116 10985 MMRuth 4 4075146 I only have Mai Pham's book, but have decided that after reading all the enthusiastic reports, I'm going to buy Nguyen's "Into the Vietnamese Kitchen" too.... Wed Oct 01 14:22:11 -0700 2008 4075138 10271 Rubee 4 4076049 Why battle w/ yourself when you can get both books? :-) I know that two Viet books is an investment, but I bet that many people have several Italian, French, Californian, vegetarian cuisine books, etc. Somehow when it comes to more "exotic" food, people limit themselves. I personally am proud that both of these books showcase overlapping and different facets of my native cuisine...a culinary language that I'm just getting to know myself partly due to this COTM project. I own Nguyen's book and have Pham's from the library, but I'm seriusly considering buying Pham's after cooking several recipes from it with success. Both have their merits. I see Nguyen's book as having more detail on technique and straying away from some of the Viet dishes seen in US restaurants. If one likes elaboration on technique, then this book will resonate. For those who find such details "fussy" and overly complicated, maybe not so much. Nguyen's book, in my mind, has a more scholarly depth and approach than Pham's. Pham's book is written more concisely and personally w/ many practical recipes. Her recipes work and are easy enough to tweak to better match one's tastes. I like her book too and enjoy creating a meal that incorporates both of their ideas. Just tonight I made Nguyen's beef w/ Chinese celery and Pham's fried rice. Rounding it out w/ Nguyen's salmon soup left over from the previous night, we couldn't be happier at the dinner table. I have two other Viet books (Authentic Vietnamese Cooking by Corinne Trang & Vietnamese Home Cooking by Didier Corlou). If I continue to cook from all four of these, I might be able to achieve the level of comfort and competence I feel in cooking other cuisines. Viet home cooking is vibrant, relatively simple, and generally pretty healthful. I'm so glad that others were opened up to the "pleasures of the Vietnamese table" as well! Thanks for another great cooking month, all! Wed Oct 01 22:35:13 -0700 2008 4075138 10371 Carb Lover 5 4076506 Great analysis. I do have both, but was trying to figure out which I would recommend to someone only buying one, and I think I come down on the side of Nguyen, if only because of the beautiful and inspiring photos, as well as the photos of the ingredients - herbs, noodles, etc. Thu Oct 02 07:13:29 -0700 2008 4076049 10985 MMRuth 6 4076548 Yes, the photos in Nguyen's book are beautiful, and the recipes are painstakingly tested. Andrea is a meticulous person who provides details and insights to engage the user and ensure that her recipes work. Of course, someone may not like a result due to taste differences. When local Dungeness crab season starts here, I plan on making Nguyen's crab w/ cellophane noodles and Pham's wok-stirred crab again. They are both great recipes to showcase crab! Thu Oct 02 07:28:54 -0700 2008 4076506 10371 Carb Lover 2 4076461 I have both books as well as an additional book by Pham and one by Corinne Trang. I find myself using the Andrea Nguyen one the most. I love the beautiful pictures and her precision in executing the recipes. I love her salad ideas and have made them as well as inspired me to develop new salads of my own. Definitely glad that I bought this book and do use the others as back-up references. Thu Oct 02 06:50:32 -0700 2008 4072434 12307 dimsumgirl