551173 Fri Aug 22 13:21:50 -0700 2008 96 30 Site Talk 0 3979026 I've been a chowhounder for a few years now. I love what chowhound used to be and it has SO much potential...when it works. I have some loyalty, despite my hugely frustrating experiences with this 'improved" site. I can't imagine that a new user would stick around long. Do they tolerate the error messages? Do they have the patience to learn all of the illogical work-arounds? Do you guys have any data to show how long a new user sticks around? I'm here because I know how good you were and how good you can be, so it is with affection that I ask. kiwi Fri Aug 22 13:22:01 -0700 2008 10991 kiwi 1 3979283 Odd. Maybe most of them haven't had any problems. I haven't. I do get the error 500 message occasionally, but hitting the refresh button fixes it. Fri Aug 22 14:40:15 -0700 2008 3979026 55316 mpalmer6c 1 3979585 Compared to many CH's, I'm a fairly "new" user and I stick around thru the bugs because I'm not alone in the frustration. Daily posts on how slow, non-searchable, etc. are written. Whether we like it or not, patience and checking in as you have is all we can do. Fri Aug 22 17:02:30 -0700 2008 3979026 36312 HillJ 1 3979643 Actually, dealing with "whatever" on the site is, for me, like eating at "hole in the walls" - Sometimes all the little "issues" are part of the charm - "Hey, it's not some big, plastic corporation!" - and sometimes, the "issues" are just frustrating! Depends on my mood, I guess! Fri Aug 22 17:34:43 -0700 2008 3979026 16129 fredid 1 3979915 Not very long. Here's my concern. The bean counters in a corporation sit in a different side of the building from anyone who understands tech or actually surfs around. And at some point, the bean counters at CBS will, I assume, take a close hard look at Chowhound's traffic and ad revenue growth. And the data they see will, of course, be drastically affected by the fact that our multiple ongoing tech snafus have been driving everyone (including me) nuts for months and months. But they won't know that. That information will not appear in whatever spreadsheet they're analyzing. So my hope is that we'll 1. continue to exist, and 2. continue to exist on our current somewhat autonomous terms, rather than be reformulated to rescue any perceived anemic performance. Fri Aug 22 19:55:55 -0700 2008 3979026 10089 Jim Leff 2 3980031 Jim.. Is there anything that we as Chowhound's can do to help you? We all want Chowhound to be the best! Fri Aug 22 21:21:52 -0700 2008 3979915 97452 Beach Chick 3 3980449 Thanks, but no need to help "me"...we need to help us! Just try to stick around in spite of the problems, I guess. If you use the site less, figuring you'll return to normal levels of use when it's all fixed, that strategy might backfire for reasons above. The even more serious problem is that these tech problems are driving the mods absolutely bat$hit as they do their invaluable work (lag and errors is a pain when surfing, but much more so when moderating). And if those guys leave in frustration, I'd hate to think of what the site would become. If you've ever surfed USENET, you know what umoderated online discussion looks like (shudder). Sat Aug 23 07:43:05 -0700 2008 3980031 10089 Jim Leff 4 3981575 Hi, Jim. I do feel your pain, and my heart goes out to you! And to the mods... Point well taken. This is meant in the spirit of trying to help. Maybe it will give you some ammunition to use on the corporate level... One can only hope. Since I "left" Chow out of total frustration with my personal level of ever-increasing Chow problems, I do check back in every once in a while to see if things have improved. They have not, and that is so disappointing. I've been an internet user for... Well, basically since the web went public. I'm not positive, but I think I was still using a Windows 486 system for IRC, or it may have been early Win95. Anyway, my point is I'm not a naive kid when it comes to the web, and I do realize that the whole web can be shaky on relay legs around the country and the world. I have had emails take a month, lost all "signals" from Listserve participants in certain parts of the country or the world, suffered through IRC breaks that seperated continents, but the problems I've been having with Chow only partially seem to be even remotely related to those problems. Specifically, I have seen what appears to me to be a marked drop in participation. While that MAY be because messages from certain areas of the global internet are not getting through to Chow (or to me), it also seems highly likely that people are dropping like flies because of the constant access and page loading problems. My experience is that those are usually host-server related problems and not web problems. I do feel confident that the internet itself is partially responsible for each individuals day to day experience with Ch. I have had days of intolerable problems, only to have others enter posts to Site Talk saying their problems have disappeared. So that has to be "netquakes." I don't think Chow is likely to be able to solve that problem completely, but I do think it's possible to reduce the impact. The thing that bugs me most is that while the constant loading problems, the "page not found" messages, the error messages, and all of this kind of thing are happening, when I do eventually get a thread open, if there is thread drift and people end up wandering from talking about fried chicken to what kind of soy sauce they use, the "discussion tracking software" fills the right hand side of my screen with ads that change right along with what people are talking about. Look, Ma. soy sauce ads! So WHY can the software do something that sophisticated by never missing an opportunity to pitch products, but the basic software environment that allows Chow participants to see the damned ads can't open the thread in a reasonable length of time? Ridiculous! There is little doubt that CBS, CNet, and whoever else is in the ownership line-up since you (Jim Leff) sold your original Chowhound boards have bought because they recognize a cash cow when they see one, and promptly hooked up their milking machines. The problem is you have to feed a cow to keep getting milk. I see a lot of "America On Line" mentality on these boards now I didn't see before. Let the volunteers run it while a major profit collecting corporation cashes in? I think that is a suicidal business model because it eventually catches up. If the engineers here on Chow need better and faster servers, they should be provided them by the milking machine owners. If they need better software, they should get it. If they need a larger engineering staff, it should be provided. And volunteers should be permanently removed from that status with a pay check. What good is a milking machine when there is no more milk? The other thing I would like to touch on in addition to seeing the moderators get paid is a clear and cohesive guide set out for moderators to follow. From where I sit, it appears that there is too much personal discretion coming from individual moderators as opposed to a unified guide on how to handle things that all moderators can understand and follow. If a thread has a hundred or two hundred (or more) posts in it and people are still contributing to it in a reasonably on-topic manner, DON'T lock the thread just because moderators are bored with it. I have had posts of mine removed that I worked on very hard in an effort to provide information about a specific subject under discussion, and I made sure I included food as well as the subject at hand. I place great value in cultural literacy, and this board can provide a great opportunity for people of many ethnic, cultural, and age groups to share information that will contribute to everyone's knowledge and enjoyment of food. So why ae mods deleting posts and preventing that kind of sharing? I also feel strongly that food is not something that can easily be separated from its time, place, or mood. Yet I have had those things disregarded when my posts have been deleted, as if "taking food" is something akin to "taking a pill": something you do mindlessly and without any recognition of flavor. I have been privileged to catch glimpses of others' posts that also offered a spoonful of cultural literacy along with info about food before they were deleted. The only useful solution I can think of, if the powers-that-be share my views, is that a well thought out set of guidelines to help paid moderators is the only reasonable solution. When these frequent frustrations are combined with the constant technical frustrations, well, to put it selfishly, there's just nothing in ongoing participation that offers me anything. Jim, for you, I pray there is some way for you to communicate with the parent corporation(s) on problems that are wrecking this formerly great site. I'm in no way doubting your efforts at finding them! I just hope my worst fear that this site may have been bought to scuttle as a tax write-off is totally wrong. If that's the case, Chow is doomed. I'll keep checking from time to time to see if things have improved, otherwise "Halloween Hangman" is free on the web, and a lot less frustrating! '-) Good luck! Caroline (aka “Caroline1”) cfreisen-at-verizon-dot-net Sat Aug 23 18:22:02 -0700 2008 3980449 112096 Caroline1 5 3981988 I haven't had any server error messages or delayed "new" posts for 36+ hours, and I read every post on the SF Bay Area board and graze the rest of the boards, so that's a pretty big error-free sample. Sun Aug 24 00:14:35 -0700 2008 3981575 10039 Melanie Wong 5 3982557 Caroline, you could not have represented my view much better, had I said it myself. I have been around a while myself and though I don't claim to understand sophisticated sites like Chowhound/Chow, I have created a number of websites. I think much of the issues are related to serving the ads hogging the right side of the screen. Loading and running all of the ads takes time and/or horsepower on the server end and lots of time on our end if we have low bandwidth and/or slow computers. I have neither (slow service or slow computer), and yet Chowhound is the worst performing and least reliable site I frequent. I went on a two week vacation and now I can't get to My Chow/My Posts... I click on people's name links and it doesn't work... I've taken to saving my writing because sometimes it won't post. I too, feel sorry for the moderators. I sure hope they are not left holding the bag when it comes to these technical site issues when it may well be bean counters and financial decisions that cause problems (that we see). As a former business owner and former employee of a Fortune 500 company, there is nothing like getting all the crap dumped in your lap from the decisions made by an insular group. Hopefully these comments go to multiple levels and various positions of authority and that they take responsibility and fix this mess. For me, too, the flavor is leaving and the pill is getting a little hard to swallow. Sun Aug 24 10:00:18 -0700 2008 3981575 137946 Scargod 6 3982756 Er, some things need clearing up here. The moderators (aka Chowhound Team) don't have anything to do with ads. And they don't have anything to do with tech. They just manage the community and its discussion. So my point (back up five postings) wasn't that the moderators would be caught "holding the bag', whatever that means. It was that if traffic downslopes as a result of these tech problems, we could find Chowhound willfully dumbed-down, made-over, shut down, or otherwise violently changed in a flailing attempt to shore up a traffic/revenue problem spotted by financial people unaware (or uncomprehending) of the tech problems. So if users leave, the result would more likely be a drastic rethinking (or disappearing) of Chowhound than any effective increase of pressure on engineers to solve hard problems sooner. Sun Aug 24 11:31:47 -0700 2008 3982557 10089 Jim Leff 7 3983094 Jim, I don't think I've said anything about the moderators being responsible for anything other than moderating and as you said, "managing the discussion". I think it's obvious what I meant by "holding the bag"; I can't see where anyone other than moderators have ever responded to anyone's questions or gripes. Thus, they are fielding questions and trying to manage the discussion about things that they don't know about or things that are not under their control. Isn't that being left "holding the bag"? I have asked numerous times about criteria for adding photos, why photo sizes keep changing and why they sometimes don't load. Moderators, caught in the middle, say they don't know, and that they have to ask tech support. I've never received an answer; probably because it was not a question that techs gave priority or weight to. I've only received an occasional acknowledgement that, yes, there's a problem. If we can't get answers, and if things don't work, then we only have this forum to express ourselves. It seems, if we get any response at all, it is from the moderators. I have been frustrated for a long time and have not left, but will not stay much longer if things don't work better. Right now, I am setting up Firefox with AdBlocker Plus and NoScript to try and get the Chowhound site to work properly. This is not without its time, effort and consequences. I will probably have to use two browsers now because some financial sites do not work with Firefox. This argument reminds me somewhat about suggestions about dealing with China. We are told to play nice and put up with them, because they are big and important. This is a two-way street and contributors (of which Caroline1 is a major, excellent one), should be treated better. There are cows out there with full udders in search of a respectful milking machine. Sun Aug 24 15:07:23 -0700 2008 3982756 137946 Scargod 8 3983105 Scargod, I applaude your post and for stepping out to say what many of us don't. Thank you. Sun Aug 24 15:12:28 -0700 2008 3983094 36312 HillJ 7 3983254 Jim, sorry I wasn't more clear. I was discussing what I see as two seperate issues, both of which are problems for me: Technical issues and moderator issues. I did not mean to imply that moderators have anything to do with technical problems beyond the issue that you brought up: If slow and obstructive technical problems are daunting to casual participants they must be hair pullingly frustrtating for moderators! The ONLY way to keep users from leaving is to fix the problems, both technical issues and moderator issues. For technical issues, my approximately twenty years of dealing with personal computers tells me the ONLY answer to overload and technical issues is to troubleshoot, upgrade and/or totally replace equipment with capacities that can handle the load. As for moderators, an issue totally seperate from technical problems, I do have years of professional experience working with human nature. Volunteers NEED to feel they are doing something worthwhile and worthy of their contribution. When the moderators here are without pay and have to deal with overwhelming and needless technical problems, what's in it for them? Human nature being what it is, when people feel frustrated it is not abnormal to strike out in whatever way is socially acceptable (unless, of course, one is less normal than most). *MY* conclusion drawn from personal experience on these boards, and considering what "The Chow Team" has offered in way of explanations, is that the guidelines for moderators appears to be arbitrary and therefore occasionally becomes a condoned outlet for frustration through decisions that just aren't logical. So my conclusion is that 1. Considering the revenue Chow generates, it is inexcusable for moderators not to be financially rewarded for their services, and 2. Moderators NEED a unified guideline that can be applied in a more even handed manner. As a response to MMR's citing of a specific thread as an "explanation" of moderator's logic for doing things in that specific way, it is an extremely flawed policy simply because it ignores the hell out of human nature! Why? Because two totally opposite factions are approaching a problem from entirely different and incompatible viewpoints. Group 1: Moderators are fully (and probably boringly) familiar with every thread that comes up on these boards. Group 2: Casual participants, many of whom may be here for the first time, try to contribute, but are thwarted in their efforts by moderators who remove threads because they have been "discussed to death." Well, that viewpoint is exclusively and soleley a moderator's viewpoint and a frustrating blockade for new users. *IF* a goal of Chow is to attract new users to keep the boards active in the face of normal attrition, the new user viewpoint has to prevail because the moderator's viewpoint slams doors. NOT rocket science! So let me offer one more suggestion before I withdraw again for more satisfying pursuits (though I will likely come back to lurk from time to time to see if things have been improved). If repeat threads are a memory hogging problem on the "interactive prime server" for these boards, why not set up a non-interactive (read only) server for archives that can be accessed through these boards but will not accept new posts from readers? No contributions to the archived threads, but still a way for participants, new and old, to find out whether something has been "discussed to death." It would also solve the problem of reactivation of old threads that now keeps cropping up. Hope this helps and clarifies my first post. Good luck. I DO enjoy sharing my knowledge of food with others, but these boards just make that an extremely frustrating pursuit, so it's back to my creative writing and Halloween Hangman...! '-) Sun Aug 24 16:12:59 -0700 2008 3982756 112096 Caroline1 8 3983522 To clarify some confusion here, we don't remove topics because they have been "discussed to death". If hounds want to revisit the topic of, for example, where to find the best pizza in New York, we'll always encourage that (though we can't promise to read every word!) But some topics are, by their very nature, problematic. And we see the same problems in every discussion about them, resulting in the same flames and hard feelings. When to not tip, children in restaurants, etc. It's because we've seen those issues "discussed to death" that we know how they inevitably end. We're not removing them because they're "discussed to death", but because they are or will be another flame-filled, unpleasant discussion. They're issues that evoke strong, opposite opinions, and they end up with a few passionate people dominating an increasingly personal and nasty argument. Some topics simply don't seem to work. Depending on how the thread starts, we may remove it pre-emptively, or we may give people a chance to have their say, and only remove it when it heads off into the inevitable argument. As we said in the other thread, it's a tough thing to balance, and a set guideline is impossible to write or apply. Sun Aug 24 18:31:01 -0700 2008 3983254 2 The Chowhound Team 9 3983634 Well, the other side of that coin is that probability says the people who start the thread are innocent of knowledge on the end result of such discussions, so the "preemptive" removal is confusing to them. Why not have a master list that cannot be overlooked (the way an FAQ can) stating exactly which subjects are forbidden? However, please do be aware that handling things in this way will only make hurt feeling innevitable. This policy is simply breaking it down to WHEN feelings are hurt: at the beginning as a reward to someone trying to start what they think is a relevant discussion, or when the discussion decays to the flame wars you say are inevitable and the whole thread is wiped out? There is also a question of whether removing specific discussons as a premptive move is better than simply not tolerating abusinve responses? It seems to me that not tolerating abusive interchanges makes a lot more sense and is a lot easier a guideline to have everyone abide by than having a list of subjects participants are not allowed to discuss. Tipping, for example, is of universal interest, despite the fact it has factions who think their way is the right way. If Chow policies keep restricting what people can talk about instead of the WAY they can talk about things, you're going to end up with a web site where people are only allowed to discuss the ingredients label on canned goods. Is that the goal? (And please do not take the hyperbole specifically as it is intended as a bit of humor illustrative of undesireable consequences.) Sun Aug 24 19:28:30 -0700 2008 3983522 112096 Caroline1 10 3984238 To each his/her own, I suppose. I used to regularly participate on the Not About Food board but I can't even wade through it anymore- the posters there get so rude and snide. It seems like some posters just park themselves on that board to indulge in bitchy behavior, without participating on the boards that actually share good chow tips- which is what I think this site is really all about. The moderation on the Not About food board does seem to be more opaque and frustrating, since whole threads do seem to disappear on a regular basis for reasons that aren't immediately clear. I don't usually see that kind of moderation on my local (Boston) board. However (and I'm not talking about anyone in particular here), if the kind of poster who just wants to be a loudmouth on the Not About Food board is driven away because of that sort of moderation, well then I actually think that's a positive outcome. Heck, I put my vote in for getting rid of the Not About Food board altogether and let's just get back to sharing chow tips. Someone else can start Etiquettehound and all the people who currently use Chowhound for that sort of bitching can go bitch and moan to their hearts content about how their mother in law brings her own cupcakes to family gatherings and how waiters are underpaid and how managers should deal with loud cellphone talkers in their restaurants. Problem solved. Mon Aug 25 06:05:18 -0700 2008 3983634 10027 Chris VR 11 3984369 Mocking without participation is just as rude as participation that leads to ugly and flaming discussion. When I first began reading CH I was surprised that a Not About Food Board was included in the community choices but now that I've been reading and participating for a while I see the benefit sharing common or uncommon experiences within the fringe of food/dining discussions evoke. Flames can and do exist on every CH Board (for the most part) and say more about human nature than community Moderation. As frustrated as many of us are about user issues, the overall CH experience is top notch. Mon Aug 25 06:59:12 -0700 2008 3984238 36312 HillJ 12 3984491 Sorry if you feel I'm mocking anyone. I'm not- the examples of discussions I think would be better discussed somewhere else are all topics I've seen discussed here. No exaggeration for comic effect. Since I've participated (a lot) on that board (but not recently because of how I think the board has degraded), I think my feedback is as valid as anyone else's. Mon Aug 25 07:47:48 -0700 2008 3984369 10027 Chris VR 13 3984564 I wouldn't miss the NAF board for a nano second and would love to vote it off the island. But if we are to believe that advertising acts as a corporate life jacket in keeping CH afloat, then the rabid participation on the NAF board is undoubtedly one of the things that the advertisers like best about CH. Maybe if a few of those advertisers actually participated in a few of the uglier flame fests that periodically break out on the NAF board they would come around to your and my way of thinking? Nah! Mon Aug 25 08:11:10 -0700 2008 3984491 108169 Servorg 14 3984583 I'd much rather keep NAF around as a spillover; I'd hate for all that stuff to be on the regional boards. I don't have much time and I try to use the boards as efficiently as possible to find something delicious to eat; having all kinds of stuff not important for scoring delicious food would be a real drag and slow me down tremendously. Mon Aug 25 08:18:36 -0700 2008 3984564 10076 limster 15 3984645 If the frustrated NAF posters tried to spread their off topic posts over a wider number of local boards they would a.) be easier to "pick off" and erase from existence and b.) would be diluted over a much bigger landscape. After awhile folks would get used to the idea of keeping the local boards for local chow and the NAF board would be nothing but a bad memory as those who participated almost entirely on the NAF board drifted away to other virtual venues. Mon Aug 25 08:35:52 -0700 2008 3984583 108169 Servorg 16 3985559 What I am talking about: http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/535512#3839640 Mon Aug 25 12:32:33 -0700 2008 3984645 137946 Scargod 17 3985576 how nice of you to post my OP, Scargod. Perhaps more replies will be offered. Mon Aug 25 12:37:41 -0700 2008 3985559 36312 HillJ 14 3984603 Servorg, advertisers enjoy hot topics and buzz as much as anyone. I would be very surprised if the advertisers weren't CH's right along with us; checking & participating in the community. Chris VR, you are so right about having as valid a point as the next poster...the point being..as long as CH's respect each other no one gets hurt or insulted. As you said, topics do veer off course but again, human nature vs moderation is what's going on community-wide. What the future holds for this bright community and the Boards listed within it remains a wait & see (imho). In the meantime, it's back to work! Mon Aug 25 08:25:38 -0700 2008 3984564 36312 HillJ 14 3985005 I agree wholeheartedly that NAF adds to the site's revenue. Where else do you get 100 or 200 posts on a subject? Since I came to the acceptance that I could choose to "just not go there" I have a better attitude about NAF, (and see it as a separate entity from the area boards). I think some of the content in the "Stories" and "Blogs" created and written by the Chowhound staff fuels the rants on NAF. They encourage worst, stupidest, wrongest types of threads that can go on forever. I admit I have even participated in a few and sometimes it was just to be sarcastic. I think this dumbing-down of a site primarily about food and where to find it bleeds over into the boards. I could do without the blog/chat areas that are NAF. Mon Aug 25 10:14:15 -0700 2008 3984564 137946 Scargod 15 3985689 Have you visited the Food Media & News. Plenty of FN host bashing, media discourse and food news talk over there that goes from rich and highly informative to juvy in nano seconds. Doesn't mean the best of FM&N gets lost in the fumes. I believe it was ChrisVR who told me a long time ago to "take what you need & leave the rest." I thought it was good newbie advice then, still do. Mon Aug 25 13:09:13 -0700 2008 3985005 36312 HillJ 15 3989269 Those stories and blogs may or may not rouse rude behavior, as you believe, but they originate on the CHOW side (which, if you ever check its homepage is a magazine format and has an editorial staff). I think Chowhound only comprises the discussion boards that migrated from the original CH site when it was bought by CNET. I could be wrong, but I doubt Chowhound staff produces any of the editorial content that shows up on the right and bottom of the Chowhound pages. Tue Aug 26 16:16:56 -0700 2008 3985005 10074 Caitlin McGrath 16 3991125 Moderators have told me that they parse and vet contributions to Chowhound's regional boards differently. To Quote: "We have been lightening up on removing some of the chattier topics from our non-regional boards. We'd still really prefer people not start those types of threads, but we're testing out the effects of not removing them. We hope you'll skip over them if you're not interested. However, regardless of the nature of the thread, it's not acceptable to tell people what they should and shouldn't post or to pass judgment on whether a thread itself is okay." Now with the site as "chowhound.chow.com" it is even murkier as to any real separation. It is confusing as to where you are and what rules apply. You see NAF, FM&N and CGT right next to the regional forums in the Chowhound drop-down menu; yet they are treated differently by the moderators. I am not suggesting that the editorial staff is getting involved in the local board's content but thinking that the separation is rather thin (and perhaps especially confusing for newbies), with areas such as Stories (and particularly, Table Manners), and Blogs, all residing on the same navbar or one click away. This content seems to leans towards cheesy-sleazy, vapid, immature content occasionally, IMHO. These "Chow" area's content suggest to Chowhounders what might be an appropriate topic for discussion on NAF, FM&N or GCT (General Chowhounding Topics). These areas are all lumped together under "Chowhound". I think these three should be moved out of the Chowhound area of the navbar, so there is a clearer and distinctive difference. I wished Chow and Chowhound were really different sites so you would not go so seamlessly between the two. Wed Aug 27 09:39:03 -0700 2008 3989269 137946 Scargod 10 3984241 Those moderation policies have been around for a very long time, even before CNET. While I have nothing against theoretical debates, I prefer a practical, empirical measurement. I measure how good the board is by how often I am able to find something delicious as a result of using this board. By that measure, the chowhound boards are as good as it has ever been for me, perhaps better than in the olden pre-CNET days. Thus I disagree that the long-standing moderation policies have degraded my experience. Mon Aug 25 06:06:35 -0700 2008 3983634 10076 limster 7 4001228 I am glad I came to CH and read this thread today. I am guilty of backing away from CH (in my mind, temporarily), with the idea of picking up again when I was actually able to access my Reading List, Favorites, load pages on the first try, see new posts in real time...etc. Work got very busy and I just went with it, figuring CH would always be here to come back to when I had more time (and those pesky errors were hopefully taken care of). The threat of losing CH has shown me the error of my ways. That said, I still don't understand why these problems persist month after month. It seems as though no sooner does one issue get a little bit better than another one pops up... and then the first issue comes back, as well! To my memory, these problems didn't begin with the advent of the new site- they cropped up suddenly many months afterward. So what gives? Let's not give up. Mon Sep 01 07:49:42 -0700 2008 3982756 102095 vvvindaloo 5 3982582 Caroline - don't know if you saw this thread, but it had a cogent explanation of why at least some threads get locked or removed. http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/548991#3966114 Sun Aug 24 10:12:31 -0700 2008 3981575 10985 MMRuth 5 3988729 Well said! I too feel that these two areas must be addressed. Not being technical, I have nothing to add except the problems keep increasing and become more frustrating on a weekly basis. Moderation is an issue. Clearer guidelines would help posters and mods. The learning curb could be increased if there was a "reporting" type code the mods could use to let the poster know why the post was removed. They don't have to write a novel, just press the appropriate code button: off topic, abusive, etc to be sent to the poster with a copy of the offending post. Like Caroline1 I have seen (and on occasion had) threads that were well written, diplomatic and filled with valid information designed to educate and create bridges of understanding removed. Often a deeper understanding of a cultural, historic or geographic background to a topic helps one gain a better basis in understanding. Ex: I was recently dining with someone at a place called Carribean Cafe. Turns out the emphasis was on Dominican food, this diner was only familiar with Jamaican. This led to a discussion of the history of the colonization of the islands as related to the development of their cuisine. Knowledge of that background allows the diner to better understand what menu items to expect. But that sort of information gets deleted constantly. The policy of moderation without explanation can be very harmful. About a year ago a any mention of a specific restaurant began being removed from my area board. This is still happening, as local food blogs have continued reporting. This is not situations which are obviously shills - but mentions by longterm, established posters saying " places that have the quailities you are seeking are x, y and z" z = forbidden restaurant, and presto - the post is gone and the poster gets a note sent saying that CH has had suspicious postings, blah, blah... The result in this region is that many of the most knowledgeable, interesting and helpful posters in the area no longer participate. There have been very diplomatic, rational dialog attempted by many of them with CH, but to no avail. These people are respected members of communities - intelligent, honorable and capable of agreeing to disagree. They include reporters, lawyers, food business executives, professionals, grad students and everyday working stiffs. By CH not being willing to openly discuss the situations it is just compounded. The end result is CH has lost the respect of many in this area. And CH has become less successful in its mission by losing the contributions of those former participants. It is a shame, and it could be avoided with a clearer moderating policy and a rethinking of the "because we said so" fall back position. I am saying this from a point of concern - not from a pick it to death critical focus. I care about this community and gain much from it. I hope my attempts to participate give back in kind. The key concept to me is "community". Yes, it is a site and has been set up with specific parameters - but a site grows and takes on its fullness from its participants. Every parent has a vision of what direction their child will take. Sometimes the child grows towards an unanticipated path. A foundation of communication, respect and understanding from all sides can let the new paths be explored and the family grow stronger. I think more of this method of parenting would be of great benefit to Chowhound - this can only be achieved by more transparency in moderation. Tue Aug 26 13:15:32 -0700 2008 3981575 111267 meatn3 1 3980857 I am mystified by how buggy Chowhound is. Of all the websites I visit daily - probably over 50 - Chowhound is the only one with frequent error messages, pages that take a month to load, posts that won't post, posts that don't show up for 15, 20, 30 minutes. And I don't find these issues "charming" at all. I can't believe the advertisers aren't putting more pressure on the tech team to resolve this crap once and for all (maybe they are). Sat Aug 23 11:26:12 -0700 2008 3979026 13722 small h 1 3981216 The most annoying thing on CH and other large, commercial sites I visit are the ads: pop-over ads; ads that expand to hide the content while it is in play, and ads that hog the processor and block navigation. Even as I type this, Aida Mollenkamp is constantly intruding like a telephone huckster at dinner time. Aida, you're a royal PITA. Sat Aug 23 14:46:46 -0700 2008 3979026 55318 DockPotato 2 3981223 That's actually the Only problem I do not have! Sat Aug 23 14:50:58 -0700 2008 3981216 75332 Gio 2 3981274 DP, no luck with ad blockers? Not only do I have NO ads but I have no audio issues. With my setup, I'd have to hunt an ad down to see/hear it. Sat Aug 23 15:16:39 -0700 2008 3981216 36312 HillJ 3 3981375 Same here. Adblock plus and NoScript are wonder workers. And free. Sat Aug 23 16:09:20 -0700 2008 3981274 93805 hannaone 3 3981442 DP, if you d/l Firefox and open as your CH browser, add the free ad blocker (as hannaone describes) you might enjoy the hounding experience alot more. Sat Aug 23 16:49:13 -0700 2008 3981274 36312 HillJ 4 3981472 Yes, I use Firefox and as I said don't have any of the problems these others are having (no annoying ads, either). So I wonder if the browser makes a difference. Sat Aug 23 17:08:44 -0700 2008 3981442 55316 mpalmer6c 5 3981515 Browsers do make a difference and some load content much faster than others. It took me a bit of trial & error to figure out which browser was optimal when reading CH; Firefox is my choice (for now). Sat Aug 23 17:32:10 -0700 2008 3981472 36312 HillJ 3 3982041 I do use FF, but the Mac version in which I don't find ad blocker. Funnily enough one of the worst offenders is Apple itself which casts up a clip in the sidebar and freezes me. Then there is FF itself which when it detects a pop up does what? Right, it casts up its own window which I have to close. As to the other problems cited, i have very few since installin FF which was suggested to me here. Sun Aug 24 03:13:57 -0700 2008 3981274 55318 DockPotato 4 3982311 I use Camino for Mac http://caminobrowser.org/ and it's been the best browser for Chowhound I've found. I don't seem to have the browser-specific errors as often, and the ad setting are pretty easy to manage. The only down side is RSS is not supported. Sun Aug 24 08:19:34 -0700 2008 3982041 10027 Chris VR 4 4003077 Yesterday I downloaded the browser Opera. It comes in WIN & MAC. Downloads in about 3 mins and has been ripping thru CH w/out a problem for me ever since. Tue Sep 02 08:00:51 -0700 2008 3982041 36312 HillJ 1 3981604 Am I the only person who never really has a problem? There was once a whole day where nothing would load and it was really killing me (I'm on here at least once an hour during the day) but other than that it's been pretty much fine. Certainly no loading issues. The only problem was the whole day of error messages. I use Firefox. Also, what ads are you guys talking about? Sat Aug 23 18:39:41 -0700 2008 3979026 113604 JFores 1 3982202 for the past several months I've experienced frustrating delays in post loading and, er, embarrasingly *edit* as that's where I do my proofreading. I just can't seem to see typing errors in the draft, so I always have to clean up in edit. Edit takes forever. Most times now I just drift away after waiting a few minutes. Often I can check 'my chow' to see if my post has registered. Then I can go on about my business elsewhere and not have to hang around waiting....and waiting. I don't often get error messages. But have LOTS of trouble with getting Places to work. That has been particularly dissapointing, as a good Places would save so much shoe leather, both figurativley here, and on the literal street. Sun Aug 24 07:08:17 -0700 2008 3979026 11234 toodie jane 1 3983148 I've had an ungodly amount of application errors here lately. I can't even access my home page. Perhaps they're all on my end. Don't even get me started on the load times... Sun Aug 24 15:26:32 -0700 2008 3979026 92744 invinotheresverde 2 3983458 I haven't been able to get past page two of "my chow" for a week. Which wouldn't be that big a deal except (as I've carped about in another thread) new responses appear according to the date of the original post, rather than the date of the new response. It's a bug, which is being worked on. As of June 5th. A very steadfast and unresolvable bug, apparently, 'cause here we are at the end of August. Sun Aug 24 17:59:50 -0700 2008 3983148 13722 small h 3 3984236 At least you can get to My Chow at all! Mon Aug 25 06:04:56 -0700 2008 3983458 92744 invinotheresverde 4 3984550 Yes, that's a blessing, I guess. Also, the site displays in English, a language I read! I'd still like it to do what it's supposed to do. Mon Aug 25 08:08:35 -0700 2008 3984236 13722 small h 4 3996062 invino..maybe it's a providence or (m*#@r f*&kers) COX problem? sounds like my daily annoyance... Fri Aug 29 05:24:42 -0700 2008 3984236 179076 sarabean 5 4005543 Could've been, but I moved out of state recently, and it still persists with Charter (which is worse than Cox, if you can believe that!). Wed Sep 03 08:29:26 -0700 2008 3996062 92744 invinotheresverde 3 3984873 If it was your thread that pointed out that bug to me, thank you! I too had no idea. Unfortunately, I can not click on your name to see if it was in fact you who posted it, as I get the same error message that I get when attempting to look at most things: There's been a slight problem... Sorry, something's not working with this page. The CHOW team has been notified and will check it out. You can go to the CHOW home, or go back to the previous page. Mon Aug 25 09:43:19 -0700 2008 3983458 10991 kiwi 3 4034373 OMG! (That's "Oh my God!" for you abbreviation haters, aka "omigod!"). A new response just appeared at the top of My Chow -- according to the date of the response, not the date of the original post! Is it fixed? Is it fixed? Is it fixed? I am daring to dream. Sun Sep 14 13:53:00 -0700 2008 3983458 13722 small h 4 4043193 And...my dreams are dashed once again. It is not fixed. Or it is no longer fixed. Whatever, it's broken. Wed Sep 17 17:51:51 -0700 2008 4034373 13722 small h 1 3983592 People are leaving. Fix the software. The ongoing software problems are totally unacceptable in the professional world. Fire who needs to get fired. Do what needs to get done. Don't pay them until they fix it. Sun Aug 24 19:03:37 -0700 2008 3979026 17562 FoodFuser 2 3996156 CNET: Problems upon posting continue. Fri Aug 29 06:37:23 -0700 2008 3983592 17562 FoodFuser 2 4006514 "connection reset".... and "problem" errors, and the hourglass continue. Paraphrasing Chucky D: "It was the best of sites. It was (becoming) the worst of sites." CNET, please fix your software. If an experienced user is beginning to enter the site with trepidations over whatever random time delays may be here, then you have a problem. Wed Sep 03 14:09:14 -0700 2008 3983592 17562 FoodFuser 2 4007422 Attempt: "My Chow" at 11:22 CST. Hourglass. Wed Sep 03 21:27:06 -0700 2008 3983592 17562 FoodFuser 3 4018806 POSITIVE RESULTS. For about 4 days now, I have experienced few, if indeed any, navigation problems. No bad hourglasses either. I hope that this indicates a proactive fix, and that it is maintained, and if so, Thanks to the engineers. Mon Sep 08 17:21:17 -0700 2008 4007422 17562 FoodFuser 4 4049645 Well, we had a week or so that things worked, but now the problems have been back for a week. Hourglass, server errors. Sat Sep 20 11:30:23 -0700 2008 4018806 17562 FoodFuser 1 3983658 I don't think chow particularly cares about the user's experience (not enough to fix the big problems, anyway), but I'm surprised that advertisers aren't yelling and screaming as much as we are. Do the advertisers know how flaky and unusable this site is? Don't they care? For example, tonight I see a broken text-only, very-narrow-columned version of the site - far less fancy or usable than the original chowhound. I'm not complaining, because I don't have to see any ads, Hooray! (Most graphics are broken, and the rest are way, way down at the bottom of the page). But if I were a chow advertiser, I'd be seriously p.o.'d about the ever worsening problems. Anne Sun Aug 24 19:41:50 -0700 2008 3979026 12541 AnneInMpls 2 3983858 The page view problem may be on your side. The advice given on the Technical board when someone reports it has been to throw away your cache, and that usually fixes the problem. Sun Aug 24 21:49:01 -0700 2008 3983658 10039 Melanie Wong 3 3983946 Thanks for the tips, Melanie, but they didn't work for me. I cleared my cache and killed & restarted my browser, but no change. I figured that this text-only weirdess was me-only, as no-one else has posted anything about it. And I'm not complaining about this one - I like the low graphics look. But there are so many, many problems! No other web site I frequent is this flaky. I certainly am spending less time on chowhound with each new problem. I'm still here, so I guess that means I'm willing to put up with the problems. But I still wonder what the advertisers think. Do they count server errors, too? Anne Sun Aug 24 22:58:46 -0700 2008 3983858 12541 AnneInMpls 4 3985050 Dang! The problems just fixed themselves, as I was browsing just now. Alas, the background colors and ads are back. (I think the style sheets were being ignored, and then suddenly started being used again.) Poop! I really hate those blinking ads, and didn't miss them at all yesterday. But the other problems (server errors, hangs, posting delays causing confusion, broken MyChow services, etc.) continue to plague the site. Certainly offputting to new users - and advertisers? Anne Mon Aug 25 10:24:16 -0700 2008 3983946 12541 AnneInMpls 1 3985223 What problems? I am a fairly new user, just over a year now. In that time I have had very few problems loading a page. At most it has taken a couple of tries. Now I admit, if I were in the middle of a complicated step in cooking something, and I couldn't remember what to do next it might be highly frustrating. With one exception I can't remember ever having to wait more than 5 minutes to get onto the site and to the thread I am looking for. And it doesn't seem to matter if I am doing it at 2am or 2pm, so I don't think the time zone has anything to do with it. What in the world are these horrendous problems that are supposed to be chasing off the newbies like me? Mon Aug 25 11:03:01 -0700 2008 3979026 57890 KaimukiMan 2 3985612 My 2.8 Mbps connection should load a page in less than 10 seconds. Our problems are real and I have tried several browsers and problems come and go. I (earlier today), complained about not being able to access My Chow information for days and now it is working. Everything I complained about over the last couple of days is resolved; at the moment, everything seems OK.... Things still work very slowly. Mon Aug 25 12:46:29 -0700 2008 3985223 137946 Scargod 3 3996049 Everything working didn't last long. Everything seems hit or miss with lots of errors, slowness and then this: Gateway Timeout The proxy server did not receive a timely response from the upstream server. Reference #1.2613f648.1220011598.5ce7fb6 My SO said she wondered if anyone was notifying the advertisers; did they know how poorly the site is working? Fri Aug 29 05:13:19 -0700 2008 3985612 137946 Scargod 1 3995557 This will be my last attempt tonight: I tried to post replies on 4 separate threads and only one worked. I've been a fairly dedicated user over the last couple of years; but I'm reaching the limits of my patience with server issues. Thu Aug 28 19:21:53 -0700 2008 3979026 80141 ccbweb 1 4002445 Seems like the site is getting more rickety and less reliable by the week. I noticed serious new performance problems about six months ago, and they've been getting steadily worse since. I don't know if it's a fundamental infrastructure problem (perhaps CNET made a bad choice in the underlying software when it remade the site a couple of years back), or just penny-pinching on server power or network bandwidth, but the site is getting increasingly unstable, unreliable, and unusable. I'd hate to see Chowhound fade away -- I think it's got a better user community than its competitors -- but if it doesn't get its act together from a technology perspective, it will utterly fail at attracting the new users that are its future. Look at Yelp, guys: that's your competition; they don't exhibit any of these problems. Make the site stable, reliable, and responsive, or give it up. You can't win at this game with an inferior technology foundation. Mon Sep 01 19:50:39 -0700 2008 3979026 10143 MC Slim JB 1 4005477 Today, and since I've started using Google's new Chrome browser, I have not had any problems on Chowhound. All features work and things are loading faster. Since things are up and down and flaky, at best on Chowhound, I don't know if this is because of Chrome or not. I'm crossing my fingers that Chrome and Chowhound are simpatico. OK, so I added an edit to this post and it showed up and then it disappeared... What I said (in my first edit), was I really like the expandable window for entering your post. Cool! It answers one of my bigger objections of having to scroll and not being able to see the whole post so you can easily proof it. Thanks! BTW, so far I like Chrome a lot. Wed Sep 03 07:56:11 -0700 2008 3979026 137946 Scargod 2 4005596 Scargod: I just read the comic book and I'm tempted to download Chrome. I now use IE7.....Is Chrome as good as "they" say it is? Is it easy to adapt to? I'll do anything to have a better, less frustrating Chowhound experience. Wed Sep 03 08:52:27 -0700 2008 4005477 75332 Gio 3 4071333 It is perhaps on the spartan side (which I like). I still use the "classic" windows theme. In this respect it's on the other side of Firefox from IE. I suspect it is more stripped-down and responsive in comparison to IE. I really like the tabs on top and the bookmark bar. I found it easy to adapt to and once you get the hang of the bookmarks bar it is quite useful and fast. I sometimes wished I could hide it like the F11 function in IE. With a new tab you get a screen shot of the most visited sites, which I find very useful, if I don't already have them on my bookmarks bar. The history gives more, better info and can easily be searched. Remember, it is in BETA! I found one retail site that would not work properly. As I recall, I could not get to my account.. With Firefox I cannot do online banking... Mon Sep 29 21:20:12 -0700 2008 4005596 137946 Scargod 2 4005690 Afraid I'm not having the same good experience on Chowhound with Chrome that you are. Just got one of those "There's been a slight problem..." messages while trying to access a page on My Chow. And, if not slower, it certainly isn't any speedier. Wed Sep 03 09:25:36 -0700 2008 4005477 11407 JoanN 2 4013233 For me, Chrome does seem to make CH load faster, and with fewer [although far from zero] errors. Chrome is a little too spartan for my tastes overall (Firefox is about the sweet spot for me), but it has improved my user experience for this site. Sat Sep 06 10:20:06 -0700 2008 4005477 11344 finlero 1 4005632 You'd think that when some substantial subset of users (or is it all of us?) gets a 500 error every single time they click their username in the upper right corner of a page, it would be a priority to fix it, especially because it's probably just one freaking line in the routes.rb file that needs to be fixed in the wake of the domain name switch of a few weeks ago. Good grief, do they have any full-time developers on this anymore? Even one? Does anyone look at the error logs? Or at least at the top 5 recurring error messages? I've pretty much stopped visiting, frankly, not because of some fit of pique or a sense of betrayal over the switch to a "chow.com" domain for the boards, but because whenever I try to go to my own "hot posts" page or click between boards I get a freaking 500 error. Don't the developers run any of the thousands of tests that were written into the code anymore? Wed Sep 03 09:03:31 -0700 2008 3979026 10465 hatless 2 4006635 They're aware of the errors -- there's a high priority problem ticket open on them. Wed Sep 03 14:49:00 -0700 2008 4005632 10021 Jacquilynne 3 4018323 How long has it been open? A month? Mon Sep 08 14:21:52 -0700 2008 4006635 29811 Buckethead 4 4018548 Are you still experiencing this issue? Mon Sep 08 15:43:11 -0700 2008 4018323 10021 Jacquilynne 5 4018848 J - things are really good (knock on wood). No lag in seeing replying posts - no 500 errors - site loads quickly - I can see anyone's posting history without seeing "there's been a small problem" Thanks to the Engineers and to you for running interference. Mon Sep 08 17:40:22 -0700 2008 4018548 108169 Servorg 6 4019060 I am having fewer problems also, especially with regard to posts not showing up right away (which was, to me, the most irritating glitch). I hope I haven't angered the internet gods by noting this. Don't punish me, internet gods! Mon Sep 08 19:05:10 -0700 2008 4018848 13722 small h 1 4020446 I thought I was the only one who got error messages all the time! Glad to know I'm not...what gives? Tue Sep 09 09:47:08 -0700 2008 3979026 112406 Chew on That 2 4021455 Lots of posts on the Tech Help board about them, though it's been much better lately for me. Tue Sep 09 14:43:30 -0700 2008 4020446 10985 MMRuth 1 4022318 Today is Day 2 for me and my newfound Error-Free CH. I can access My Chow on the first attempt, my posts show up right away, threads are appropriately collapsed/uncollapsed and none of those "Oops" and "500" errors... and I haven't changed browsers or anything at all. Thanks and kudos to whomever is working on it! Tue Sep 09 20:53:25 -0700 2008 3979026 102095 vvvindaloo 2 4023621 I too have noticed dramatic improvements in stability, rapid appearance of new posts, ability to edit existing posts, and reduction in failed operations with cryptic error codes. It seems pretty much back to the stability and performance level I'd gotten accustomed to under CNET. You all had me worried for a while there. Thanks, and keep up the great work! Wed Sep 10 10:33:50 -0700 2008 4022318 10143 MC Slim JB 3 4024077 Ditto. Thanks, kids! Wed Sep 10 12:43:56 -0700 2008 4023621 92744 invinotheresverde 1 4048013 I'm surprised to read the more recent "the site's working great!" posts. CH is still unbelievable slow from page to page, and I still get errors, too (though not quite as often). Still very slow! Fri Sep 19 14:05:22 -0700 2008 3979026 11148 Alcachofa 2 4048418 Last couple days for me have been worse than ever. Waiting forever for reply windows to appear, etc. Not complaining, just offering a data point. Well, maybe complaining just a little bit.... Fri Sep 19 17:25:27 -0700 2008 4048013 10089 Jim Leff 3 4052772 This entire weekend was bad, and today, the entire site was down. No way, no how could you get in for about 4 hours. I'm really REALLY concerned at the traffic/usage plunge on this site since August: http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details/chowhound.com It's literally dropped to nothing with a HUGE stock market-like plunge in early August. These problems have got to be driving people away. Somehow, before they revamp the site, they have to make the current one usable by the long-time regulars. Keep the core base happy, the rest will come. But not if the site can't even be used! Mon Sep 22 13:02:27 -0700 2008 4048418 10532 LindaWhit 4 4052787 Linda - I think some of that may be because of the switch to the chowhound.chow.com URL. Take a look at this: http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details/chow.com Still a bit worrisome though. Mon Sep 22 13:05:57 -0700 2008 4052772 10985 MMRuth 5 4052813 OK - that's a good bit better. :-) Everything is bundled under Chow.com now...had forgotten that. But yes - the lack of usability of the site is definitely still an issue. Mon Sep 22 13:13:06 -0700 2008 4052787 10532 LindaWhit 1 4050012 I'm wondering why it takes soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo long for a board to loooooooooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaddddddddddddddddddddd Sat Sep 20 17:31:01 -0700 2008 3979026 10285 Candy 1 4054254 Please note the date on this post! For the last couple of days the site has been remarkably stable, and today I even got back all of the "New" markers on threads, quick loads, no spinning wheels, and with the exception of two hours today/yesterday (Monday morning) during which both Internet Explorer and Google Chrome browsers told me the site was down, things seem to be "fixed." And come to think of it, it was not until after the two hours (or so) that Chow was unavailable that all of the "New" icons reappeared. I hadn't seen those since several weeks prior to the time I left Chow because I couldn't communicate. In the interim, I have been checking the site to see whether things were improving. They absolutely were not. When the "new look" was annoiunced, when I checked it out I noticed the little drop-down menu in the lower right hand corner of many pages that has links to "Other CBS Interactive Sites". Out of curiosity, I checked several of them out. Maybe as many as half. I just wanted to see if any other CBS interactives shared Chow's technical problems. They did not! And when I went to the Chow site through that interactive link, the problems were still there, but they were curiously reduced. So, based on two days of improved performance, and today's reappearance of the "New" markers and such after the two hour hiatus, I'm blindly leaping to the conclusion that in addition to the "new look" CBS is bestowing on Chow, they appear to have arm wrestled and won against the technical problems. Now I'll go cross my fingers and light a few candles that the cyber-gods don't strike my computer dumb for such hubris! Tue Sep 23 02:18:50 -0700 2008 3979026 112096 Caroline1 2 4054343 Maybe the past two days worked for you - it was utterly useless and a waste of time for me all day yesterday - as it is more and more frequently - such a shame for such a rich site to lose users and contributors over technical glitches - I'm still barely hanging in there hoping someone cares about their investment in chowhound, but I probably will move when and if I find a stable substitute - very, very sad situation (why is this so hard for CNET to figure out???) Tue Sep 23 04:47:57 -0700 2008 4054254 10399 rlh 3 4054938 Not that people should have to change what works for them on all other sites in order to get better access to this one, but... Have you tried Google's new "Chrome" browser? For me, the browser itself has a few unsurmountable personal shortfalls, lke it will not do internet shortcuts, but it does do a better job of accessing Chow for me than IE does. But it is not a cure-all for some of the problems I was experiencing with chow. Another thing that may or may not have helped is that after logging on to Chow, I went to the drop down menu at the bottom of the page and went to Chow again through the CBS Interactive Sites menu, and it SEEMED to work a bit better that way. God, I hope this isn't a passing illusion for me and that I'm not about to be slam dunked back into cyber-pergatory! Here's hoping things get better for EVERYONE...! Tue Sep 23 08:55:53 -0700 2008 4054343 112096 Caroline1 2 4054475 welcome back caroline. i missed you! Tue Sep 23 06:12:06 -0700 2008 4054254 105717 alkapal 3 4054960 Thank you! I missed you too, but I stubbornly refused to spend literally hours trying to find recent posts to respond to, then having to wait way way too long for them to upload. Good to have things in working order again (long may it last!). '-) Tue Sep 23 09:02:24 -0700 2008 4054475 112096 Caroline1