547421 Sun Aug 10 18:33:40 -0700 2008 83 29 Not About Food 0 3945796 I was out last night at a restro with my family, and the table next to us was a large family of 12. The service they had was horrid. Missing sides, a missing entree, they waited , and waited and waited over an hour between the appys and the entrees, drinks left unfilled... etc etc.. They constantly were asking our server to get thier server. When the bill came the patriarch was furious the server added 20% for service to his final tab, he deleted it and paid in cash, sans tip... the server and the manager tried to stop him at the door, the manager said he was going to call the police. Needless to say the patriarch said GO RIGHT AHEAD.. you ROBBED me of service!! I honestly sided with him on this one... his service was atrocious and not worth what they demanded from him. We left before we could see what happened in the end.. but now my curiosity is piqued. Is it illegal to not tip? Sun Aug 10 18:33:42 -0700 2008 54116 gryphonskeeper 1 3946172 Not per se for all tips, however: it is highly likely that on the menu it said something to the effect that all parties larger than 6 will have an automatic 20% tip added to the bill. If that is in fact the case at this place, then yes, if someone refused to pay they could be breaking the law just as surely as if they tried to leave without paying for food. On the other hand, the customer could argue that no service was provided so 20% is not indicated no matter what the menu says, just as if I am not delivered the food I ordered and they refuse to make it right then I'm not paying for the food. That being said, any decent restaurant would not hold the diner to this were the service truly that bad. One time my party of 10 had unconsciounably horrid service and there was an auto-18% tip included. I had words with the manager and it was reduced by half. They didn't have to do this. It was the right customer-service goodwill common sense move. Sun Aug 10 22:22:20 -0700 2008 3945796 13853 Leonardo 2 3946897 "On the other hand, the customer could argue that no service was provided" One could argue this if one wanted to be a liar and a cheat. Seated and served dinner - no service was provided? Mon Aug 11 08:55:13 -0700 2008 3946172 26666 FrankJBN 3 4107634 the seat, the food, the heat/AC, lights, muzak,etc...are in the price of the food. "service" as it is commonly used, is the hospitality your waiter has(not)provided. Wed Oct 15 21:48:55 -0700 2008 3946897 39457 nkeane 1 3946791 IANAL, but I'm pretty sure that the automatic gratuity added to a check for large parties is nothing more than a convenience for the customer so they don't have to calculate the tip. It's not illegal to not tip, especially when the restaurant is obviously, as in this case, using the auto-grat as an excuse to provide crappy service. Mon Aug 11 08:22:10 -0700 2008 3945796 29811 Buckethead 2 3946890 "I'm pretty sure that the automatic gratuity added to a check for large parties is nothing more than a convenience for the customer" You don't really believe this, do you? If you do, I'm selling a car that doesn't run. It's not a rip-off, it's a safety feature I provide to my customers so they won't have to avoid accidents. Mon Aug 11 08:52:31 -0700 2008 3946791 26666 FrankJBN 3 3946921 I'm not sure what your analogy is meant to imply. What I meant was that I don't think the auto-gratuity has any legal standing, that just because a restaurant prints that on the menu doesn't mean you are legally obligated to pay it. If I'm mistaken, then tell me. If the OP's account of the meal in question is accurate (missing dishes, hour-long waits between courses, etc.), then I don't see how the restaurant can expect 20% gratuity, no matter what their menu says. Mon Aug 11 09:00:50 -0700 2008 3946890 29811 Buckethead 4 3946974 I don't know whether or not the auto-grat has legal standing. But the reason why a lot of restaurants tack on 17-20% for larger parties is that larger parties involve a lot more work than dealing with a 2 or 4 top. Turnover is also a lot slower with larger parties. If the waiter is stiffed on a larger party (for whatever reason), it can be very frustrating. Now, in the scenario that the OP posts, I probably also would have disputed the 20% charge. Maybe not 0% (as they did do some work), but it would leave a bad taste in my mouth to leave 20. Mon Aug 11 09:15:44 -0700 2008 3946921 10763 Miss Needle 2 4137985 >>>...I'm pretty sure that the automatic gratuity added to a check for large parties is nothing more than a convenience for the customer so they don't have to calculate the tip.<<< Actually it is the other way around. It is not uncomon for a large party to run up a bill in he hundreds of dollars, even at a moderately priced establishment. (A part of 10, average of $25 each is not hard to hit with entrée, beverage, & dessert.) Then the $300 check comes and the one paying the check figures out a 20% tip will be (GASP!) $60, s/he quietly slips a 20 on the table and slinks away, and the server, who had to work extra hard to keep everyone happy, gets stiffed. This happens more often than not. That is why you see a "mandatory tip" charged for large parties. People don't seem to mind 20% on a modest lunch tab, but once the price approaches 3 figures sticker shock sets in, even if the service was great. That being said, a tip is also *earned*. Having worked in the industry and was taught by the chef/owner what kind of service is expected, I am anal about service. If the service is below par, (or worse) I would definitely deduct the mandatory tip and pay what I thought *was* earned. I would also ask to speak with the manager privately to explain my actions with examples of the poor service. If s/he makes excuses for the server, than I would withdraw the entire gratuity. Thu Oct 30 01:13:54 -0700 2008 3946791 226942 al b. darned 1 3946851 Interesting question...i'm not sure, but i did find this online http://www.mentalfloss.com/trivia/facts/?p=1337 Mon Aug 11 08:40:58 -0700 2008 3945796 157030 iluvtennis 2 3947916 From that link: "As for the legality of the practice, at one time, it was generally considered that a diner entered into a “contract” with the restaurant by virtue of ordering food, and was obligated to pay according to the terms of the contract, including any added gratuity (as long as the policy was stated in writing on the menu). However, in 2004, a New York restaurant owner sued a man for not paying the mandatory gratuity. In a surprising decision, the judge ultimately decided that “gratuity” by definition means “discretion,” and therefore payment could not be forced. As a result, don’t be surprised if that disclaimer printed on menus now says “service charge” instead of “gratuity.” " Mon Aug 11 13:44:52 -0700 2008 3946851 157030 iluvtennis 1 3946910 There is no law requiring you to tip. A tip is not an entitlement, it needs to be earned. Contrary to alot of 'Hounders here, I never tip on poor service. I don't want to hear how hard servers work, blah, blah, blah. I work hard to earn a living too. Kudos to the patriarch for having the cajones to stand up against this kind of nonsense. Mon Aug 11 08:58:42 -0700 2008 3945796 178131 BiscuitBoy 2 3946929 "I work hard to earn a living too" And when you make a mistake of any kind, does your pay get docked? If not, do you refund it to your employer? Mon Aug 11 09:02:26 -0700 2008 3946910 26666 FrankJBN 3 3947077 Any kind of mistake? Of course not. However, missing dishes, hour long waits, etc. is pretty major. Let's not make servers into unsung heroes. Tipping on poor performance is ridiculous, and will only perpetuate the problem....Kinda like welfare Mon Aug 11 09:51:36 -0700 2008 3946929 178131 BiscuitBoy 3 3947430 "And when you make a mistake of any kind, does your pay get docked? If not, do you refund it to your employer?" This is comparing apples and oranges. The server is judged by each and every table - not one consistent employer - and that table contributes by way of tips to the server's salary. At a regular job, if one makes a mistake they are not docked that one time. However, if the mistakes keep piling on they'll be passed over for a raise or promotion or get fired whereas the server can make up their 'mistake' at the next table they serve. | Permalink | Report | Reply Mon Aug 11 11:33:31 -0700 2008 3946929 112360 Beau711 2 3947086 "I work hard to earn a living too" Do you make half of minimum wage and then only get a bonus if your performance is above the standards of the fickle customer? As to the original post, I doubt that the police could do anything, but I'm sure it would be an interesting/entertaining situation none the less (assuming you are observing and not involved). I would have tried to stick around to see how it was resolved! Mon Aug 11 09:55:14 -0700 2008 3946910 135452 pollymerase 3 3947245 I'll go out of my way to please "fickle" client of mine, to make a sale. That's the difference, that makes some people driven, and some people deadwood. And yes, my pay decreases with poor performance...Doesn't yours? Fickle is one thing, outright neglect is another. Mon Aug 11 10:39:51 -0700 2008 3947086 178131 BiscuitBoy 4 3948949 I love how some people pretend that servers are the only people in the world that depend on the "fickle" nature of their customers for a paycheck. The vast majority of companies are sustained by a sales force that caters to their customers and make or break the bank based on what their customer does. If a real estate agent "sells" a house and does all of the work up to the point of obtaining the mortgage and the customer has bad credit, guess what, the realtor doesn't get paid! Please quit acting like servers are the only people dependent on their customers and therefore should always be tipped well! Mon Aug 11 19:41:48 -0700 2008 3947245 15507 Rick 5 3949039 Well said Rick, I watched my hard working Mom give 37 years to fine jewelry buying for a major chain only to be told her Christmas sales receipts for the sixteen stores she covered had to be X amt. of dollars if she expected a raise or year end bonus. The entire holiday season sales ruled her annual sales totals. So if diamonds didn't sell, or the gold was not as popular with customers that year-her income reflected it. Try guessing what customers will buy for 37 years without a tip! I know servers and restaurants don't have it easy. I applaud those of you who take pride in your work & business, but every profession has it perks and pitfalls. Mon Aug 11 20:17:09 -0700 2008 3948949 36312 HillJ 6 3949484 But this is a food related board. Of course there are similar professions where the cheap customers stiff hard working people in the service business. That said, servers have to deal with the public in all its glory and still face getting stiffed. Tue Aug 12 04:33:54 -0700 2008 3949039 11104 dolores 7 3949663 of course dolores. We agree, similar points can be made across the service industry. It was the folks working in service who might/do feel they are the "only ones" getting stiffed that I was referring to. I see the irony. Servers are also customers..and depending on what side (or both) of the irony discussed the "who" is getting stiffed changes. Tue Aug 12 06:19:05 -0700 2008 3949484 36312 HillJ 3 3949285 Objecting to poor service is hardly "fickle." If a waiter is clearly drunk, can't remember which table ordered which dishes, and spills clam juice on the table, is it "fickle" to regard that as poor service? Mon Aug 11 22:41:12 -0700 2008 3947086 55316 mpalmer6c 4 3949907 the things you mention are objective. However, if you read this board, you'll find people who think it's bad service if they are asked for a drink order within a minute or two of being seated and people who think it's bad service if they are not immediately asked for a drink order. You will hear from people who expect servers to clear their plates as soon as they are finished, and others who think it bad service when the servers do not wait until everyone at the table is finished. You will find people who complain that servers did not offer separate checks and others who complain that they were kept waiting when servers figure separate checks for others. There have been debates over dozens of service issues where one side claims that one action is bad service and the other side insists on the opposite. So while it may not be fickle to object to bad service, there is no clear consensus on many service issues (or their is a consensus but there is a vocal minority who argues against that consensus), which ultimately results in the same thing. Tue Aug 12 07:44:41 -0700 2008 3949285 15562 nc213 5 4109074 It goes both ways. You also have people who figure that the server deserves a 25% tip (post-tax) just for showing up to face another day of the hardest job in the world. Personally, not much bugs me when it comes to servers doing things. I think that people who complain about the things you mention are pretty petty. OTOH I expect servers to *really* give me good service if they expect a good tip. If they're just average, they should be paid "just average". Thu Oct 16 13:14:20 -0700 2008 3949907 111910 jgg13 1 3947172 This is a good reason to bring enough cash to pay for dinner on the remote chance of something like this happening. This was resolved the correct way - as a business rather than legal matter. Resorting to the law here would have been the depth of silliness. Mon Aug 11 10:17:37 -0700 2008 3945796 13819 Karl S 2 3947281 >>This is a good reason to bring enough cash to pay for dinner on the remote chance of something like this happening. Good point, Karl S. gryphonskeeper, the head of the party of 12 did exactly what I would do in such a situation. Kudos to him. Mon Aug 11 10:49:09 -0700 2008 3947172 11104 dolores 1 3947556 If the menu provides that a 20% SC will be added, then it is a breach of contract to leave without paying, the same as decicing that you didn't like the fish and leaving without paying. If the state has a theft of services statute, then it could be criminal as well. When there are issues such as missing entrees and sides, that is the time to bring up those problems with the manager. not when the check comes. A good manager should have addressed those issues and done some adjusting. However, those matters may not be problems that the server was responsible for. Kitchens are quite able to screw up an order, especially when it's for a large group. Punishing the server isn't fair when this is the reason. It also doesn't send the message to the responsible person. The server isn't paid minimum wage because tips are presumed. when they get stiffed because of something that may be beyond their control, it isn't performance-based pay it's just getting screwed. Mon Aug 11 12:13:55 -0700 2008 3945796 106255 chazzerking 2 3947949 Nothing more interesting than watching non lawyers argue the law! First: there is no one law. Each state and province will have their own rules although there will some common elements. The notice given and wording used will be the most important element.There is a difference between a tip and a service charge. A tip is voluntary and, at worst, the preset tip is nothing more than a suggested amount. A service charge is, indeed, part of the offer that a menu represents. The menu offers to sell you a product for a price (with a service charge if noted clearly). When you order, you accept the offer and, voila, a contract is born. The service charge must be obvious from the menu or the diner could argue it is not part of the contract. Once the contract is formed there are many ways to challenge part or all of the charge. If the service is less than reasonably expected (which varies from place to place with a certain range...McD cannot be expected to have the same level of service as Bouchon) then the contract is breached by the restaurant and damages flow. Same thing if the meal itself is not prepared accoring to objective standards. If the chicken is raw or the steak is the wrong cut or overdone, I would argue that the meal did not deliver the contract specs. None of this is an exact science and it goes beyond "I liked it" or not There is no criminal element to any of this because, unless the diner INTENDS to leave without paying for product and service provided, there is no criminal intent (which we in Canada still call mens rea). The illegal act (if that is what it is) is not enough. I am sure there is a legal exam quesiton in all of this, but the reality is no self respecting cop is going to care about any of this. Except for the actual attempt to avoid payment as opposed to disputing the value given, this is a civil contract dispute not a criminal matter. In my view, the patriach leaving without paying the service charge (assuming that was not a tip - in which case he was merely exercising discretion) was assigning damages to his poor service. It was below the contracted for standard and he offset his losses against their contractual right to payment. I would have done exactly that. Mon Aug 11 13:53:27 -0700 2008 3947556 74367 foodiesnorth 3 3948737 Sorry Foodiesnorth, I've only been practicing law for 30 years, 20 of that as an elected District Attorney. but when there is a notice posted, then the intent can be presumed and it then becomes a jury question. I didn't realize that the discussion of this question would involve an appellate brief. While I understand that a particular officer in a particular jusisdiction may have different ideas, but that does not make the conduct legal. the OP asked if this was legal or illegal and I replied that under certain circumstances in some states it may be a crime. Mon Aug 11 18:11:43 -0700 2008 3947949 106255 chazzerking 4 3949897 No disrespect intended and I do forget that the US uses juries for everything! We save them here for the most serious offenses....and we don't elect our justice officials :-) Of course, with juries anything is possible. As a litigator with 20 years behind me (first criminal defense and then civil), I would not want lay persons reading this post to think they are in any real jeopardy if they refuse to tip bad food/service. One might say (as the wife did) that my analysis may have been a bit pendantic, obtuse and even, gulp, lengthy, but the intent was simply that. Tip or don't tip, you won't be charged and you won't go to jail....in any sane system. But, as you correctly point out, anything is possible...but very little of what is possible is probable. 'nuf said...back to the regularily scheduled broadcast. Tue Aug 12 07:41:52 -0700 2008 3948737 74367 foodiesnorth 5 3951103 You bet. I still think that a tip has been turned into something more than an appreciation for good service by the restaurant business. Posters above talk about other jobs where pay is performance based. I would say to them that in none of those cases is that performance pay determined by the customer. Either we need to go to a european system where the service is included in the price of the meal, or diners are going to have to understand that their evaluation of what are server contolled issues needs to be reframed when they go to figure the tip. I've worked both in the front of the haouse and mostly in the kitchen. I definitely prefer the kitchen. it's ironic that the diners who seem to expect the most service in exchange for their paltry tips are also the rudest and hardest to deal with. Anyway, that's what I think. Tue Aug 12 14:12:30 -0700 2008 3949897 106255 chazzerking 6 3951129 chaz, the (non food) example I gave is directed by customer purchase and satisfaction. The customers most certainly played a large role in performance & sales results. Just saying. Tue Aug 12 14:22:38 -0700 2008 3951103 36312 HillJ 6 3951131 I will regale you with one somewhat relevant story from a Vegas trip last year. We were at the Wynn and ate at SW Steakhouse...it was a disaster that actually provoked a long letter co written by the wife and I. We left no tip as there was a combination of bad food and bad service. I did write my comments on the visa slip that evening. We then had a fabulous dinner at Isla the next night. We took the unearned tip from SW (I think it would have been about $150) and paid it the staff at Isla...which resulted in the tip being marginally more than the whole bill. Even for Vegas, I am guessing that is a rare situation. It is never my intent to keep tips to save money. I do like the idea of having a way to express pleasure or displeaure in a rather time honoured fashion. Tue Aug 12 14:22:53 -0700 2008 3951103 74367 foodiesnorth 7 3951459 Your action is a rare one. I agree that the server and the management needs to be made aware of problems or there's no chance that they will be corrected. My point is that in many instances, the lowest paid and sometimes least responsible party is the one punished. Tue Aug 12 16:16:33 -0700 2008 3951131 106255 chazzerking 8 3951577 "My point is that in many instances, the lowest paid and sometimes least responsible party is the one punished." If that was your point, than I agree with you 110% percent! Tue Aug 12 17:07:06 -0700 2008 3951459 36312 HillJ 8 3952089 in this instance the manager was involved, in fact he help serve the VERY late (and missing) entrees ....He knew, yet ignored it.,, better yet CONDONED it by making no gesture to the patriarch. Tue Aug 12 20:28:38 -0700 2008 3951459 54116 gryphonskeeper 9 4145122 If you weren't in the party and actually sitting at the table, how do know exactly what was done and said and what wasn't? Did you see the bill and verify that nothing was deducted from it? Sun Nov 02 18:22:11 -0800 2008 3952089 16488 BigAppetite 4 3952229 Gah! Chazzerking, you really think Average Joe 1) notices the fine print at the bottom of the menu and 2) a meeting of the minds actually occurs? I seem to remind that law school contracts case about the tiny print forum selection clause on the back of the cruise line ticket. What are we really holding average folks to? I think "service charge" needs to be in BIG letters somewhere. Gratuity still means gratuity in my book. I don't think there's a contract. Of course, I'm just a young pup. Tue Aug 12 21:35:58 -0700 2008 3948737 64882 Vetter 2 3947982 But what is the definition of "service" for the SC to be calculated? Is it take the order and then nothing else and the customer needs to go to the kitchen to pick up the meal or is it white glove, soup to nuts. When one looks at the menu and reads "chicken marsala" the customer assumes that s/he will receive the chicken marsala s/he has received elsewhere. but three chicken fingers arrive and the customer says, "hey this is not chicken marsala" and the response is "my wife's name is Marsala and this is the chicken she made." The point is there is a point of reference standard that is expected when one orders chicken, steak, coke, or service. And if there is a disagreement about what is delivered then arguments and lawsuit follow. So the breach may not always fall on the customer's side if the restaurant does not deliver "service". Mon Aug 11 14:03:39 -0700 2008 3947556 11290 jfood 3 3948007 I would argue thought that "service" in service charge has long ago lost a separate meaning. The reality is that it a charge unrelated to service except as an overall charge for the meal. It is no different than the multitude of pre noted charges attached to more and more things in life. This is no different than "shipping and handling"...I don't think anyone still believes that it is really for "handling"! If someone does...I think Frank JBN above may have a car to sell them! Mon Aug 11 14:11:17 -0700 2008 3947982 74367 foodiesnorth 4 3948033 Sorry F but jfood can not agree in the least. Service today should be at least, if not better than service five years ago and if the restaurants have now determined that a separate charge follows, they sure as shooting better have a reasonableness standard. Likewise jfood argues strongly that there is absolutely "handling". The time and aggravation of shipping items absolutely leads to a cost to the business and the handling means more than two hands pulling off the rack and placing in a box. Mon Aug 11 14:20:06 -0700 2008 3948007 11290 jfood 5 3948125 I appreciate (and agree with) your view that service should be better, but that is not relevant to the legal issue posed by this post. You have no more choice when confronted by a service charge than you do with any surcharge, fee, assessment or other amount of which you have prior knowldge when entering into the contract. My only point is that as a term of art, "service charge" is merely a charge by another name, added to the bill. It is not a voluntary or variable rate. It is not related to service. It is not a tip or gratuity (which of course finds its origin in the French word "gratis" or free!). It is part of the cost of eating at such an establishment. Your only choice is to stay or not. If they come through with food and service to an objectively reasonable standard you are stuck. If the service is absent, you can value the loss and offset it against the charges of the meal. It would be naive (and no disrespect is intended) to think the charge is value based. FYI: It is not realistic to suggest that the handling charge in my example is factly connected to handling...of course it helps offsets the returns of rejected product so that the buyer never does get it "risk free". It also ensures a higher profit margin confined to the small print. Mon Aug 11 14:42:55 -0700 2008 3948033 74367 foodiesnorth 6 3948209 "Nothing more interesting than watching non lawyers argue the law!" except stating a binary conclusion followed by qualifiers to that conclusion!! Jfood, the non-lawyer, is interested in how thes two statements align: 1 - "You have no more choice when confronted by a service charge than you do with any surcharge, fee, assessment or other amount of which you have prior knowldge when entering into the contract" versus 2 - "If they come through with food and service to an objectively reasonable standard you are stuck" Number 1 is very binary and number 2 has the reasonableness standard. Likewise jfood would agree that " the charge is value based." Mon Aug 11 15:01:02 -0700 2008 3948125 11290 jfood 7 3948333 It is linear, not binary ( I prefer the phrase "two step") process. First, do you have a choice as to whether or not to pay the surcharge? In other words, is it like a true tip or is it an integral part of the contract. In my view the answer is: it is a contracted surcharge based on the food price. If you decide it is not a surcharge, but is merely a tip, the linear analysis ends. You may or may not pay, reasonably or not. The second step (if you agree it is a contract) is to determine whether the contract is honoured by the restaurant or not. If it is, you must pay the contract price. If no, then the customer can set off or "charge back" its loss against the contract price. The set off is not related to the service charge which itself is not related to actual service. Although a tip (a true measure of service when effected reasonably) can be expressed as a percent, it can also be calculated empirically without reference to the food price. The reasonableness standard is related to the second step and is not relevant to the first step. Understood in that fashipn, the two statements align and, I hope, make sense. Like many legal issues, this is a linear solution (which has internal binary steps...the but/for test in tort law is a good example). I make much more sense when I am at my desk and not sitting on my couch with my laptop concurrently watching the Olympics. I hope this makes sense. In the end, as mentioned above, this is a merely cerebral exercise, as the business solution trumps any legal analysis. I am merely answering the original post. Cheers Mon Aug 11 15:47:29 -0700 2008 3948209 74367 foodiesnorth 3 3951469 Disputes of this nature are always fact and situation specific, and there can't be a hard and fast rule. I have on many occasions reduced the amount of the tip when I have received lousy service. I have also always told the server or manager why I reduced the tip. If you receive an item that is not what you ordered, that is the time to address the failure, not at the end of the meal. send it back and get what you want or leave. but don't accept the wrong or bad item and then stiff the waiter who didn't cook the wrong thing. Tue Aug 12 16:20:55 -0700 2008 3947982 106255 chazzerking 4 3951660 Yup agree 100%. Jfood does not want a gotcha at the end of the meal by harboring these issues. If something arrives incorrectly , point it out immediately and if unresolved, move up the chain of command, but nicely and without making a scene. A quiet conversation is better than steve martin and the escargot scene from The Jerk. Tue Aug 12 17:38:37 -0700 2008 3951469 11290 jfood 2 3948123 This is a business matter, not a legal matter. Good sense is what's needed here, not legal analysis (any good lawyer will tell you that anything that can be disposed of business grounds should be so done rather than resorting to legal grounds). No court would entertain this very long. Mon Aug 11 14:42:24 -0700 2008 3947556 13819 Karl S 2 3948228 Not MY contract, chazzerking. My contract stipulates that I get good to very good food, the seat I want within reason, pleasant and timely service, and for that I will pay the price the restaurant asks (without any surprises not agreed to on the menu). IF the restaurant deviates from the contract, I have the right, nay the responsibility, to leave 0% tip, inform the server and manager and owner why I am leaving the 0% tip, IF they are interested, to never return, and to talk about my negative experience wherever I can for the rest of my life. Sound reasonable to you? It does to me. Mon Aug 11 15:09:24 -0700 2008 3947556 11104 dolores 3 3948288 Very interesting. 1 - If you do not "get good to very good food" you believe you should leave zero tip 2 - If you do get "seat I want within reason" you believe it is your "responsibility" to leave zero tip 3 - If the server is not "pleasant" you believe it is your "responsibility" to leave zero tip 4 - If you do not receive "timely service" you believe it is your "responsibility" to leave zero tip "Sound reasonable to you?" To jfood is sounds like the exact opposite, totally unreasonable since 1, 2 and 4 are probably outside the control of the server and 3 is purely subjective. Mon Aug 11 15:30:29 -0700 2008 3948228 11290 jfood 4 3948305 jfood, jfood misunderstood my post. The tenets of my contract are not individual, they are a group. I expect ALL of the expectations of my contract to be met, and if they are not, the tip is degraded accordingly. If the service, as described in the OP's post, is non-existent, then the contract is null and void, and the server gets 0% tip, absolutely. I'm happy that jfood rewards for zero service. dolores does not. Dining is both subjective, personal choice, and measurable. Tough work, is it not? My contract is 100% reasonable. Mon Aug 11 15:37:15 -0700 2008 3948288 11104 dolores 5 3948323 But the bad food is due to the fault of the kitchen staff, not the servers. With exceptions of certain places like sushi restaurants, the tip is split just with the servers. Dolores, if you were happy with #2-#4, but were not happy with #1, would you reduce the tip? Mon Aug 11 15:44:16 -0700 2008 3948305 10763 Miss Needle 5 3948400 fair enough but jfood still disagrees. He NEVER dings the tip for the food or table location. There may be a ding if the timing lapse was the server's fault (almost impossible to ascertain so that probably is also VERY rare) and jfood is not there to make friends with the server, so pleasant is not as important as efficient. Unpleasant is a different issue. Jfood never stated he tips for zero service, but he also believes in cause and effect and these examples do not justify taking it out on the server. But as you have always said, your money your choice. Mon Aug 11 16:03:15 -0700 2008 3948305 11290 jfood 6 3948561 jfood, this server had to be hunted down with hounddogs.. seriously, it was almost comical. That table sat with empty drinks, empty plates, and empty stomachs for a while and the ONLY time the waitress was even there, was when she was hunted down and forced to come over and get drinks, etc.. and when sides were missing, and an entree never shows at all? That is beyond poor service. Her excuse was that she was new, but I can tell you she reeked of cigarettes every time she walked by... so my guess is she was spening more time in the alley smoking, than in the galley getting food/drinks. Mon Aug 11 17:03:06 -0700 2008 3948400 54116 gryphonskeeper 7 3948727 nt sure why this is directed at jfood, but jfood agrees with a zero tip for the dinner described. it sounds just horrid. Mon Aug 11 18:09:32 -0700 2008 3948561 11290 jfood 8 3949100 I know...that is why I said it...I am with you 100 percent Mon Aug 11 20:47:30 -0700 2008 3948727 54116 gryphonskeeper 4 4106033 Except it actually works out reasonably when you count in tip-pooling, which is a mainstay of the industry. Often 30% of a waiter's nightly tips are taken from him and pooled to hostesses, busboys, runners, kitchen staff. So, what if the waiter is very pleasant, busts his tail to do everything he can for you, and the service is still bad because the hostess is clueless and the kitchen staff aren't efficient or cook bad food? If you say the waiter's not to blame, and therefore give him a full tip, you are also rewarding the hostess and kitchen staff in spite of their failings because he has to give part of that tip to them. That's not fair to you, to the waiter, and doesn't incentivize the others to improve their service. The practice of tip-pooling acknowledges that restaurant service is a TEAM effort, and as in most teams, if the team fails, everyone fails. PS, jfood - the illeism (refering to yourself in the third person) makes you sound like Elmo from Sesame Street. Wed Oct 15 10:03:58 -0700 2008 3948288 232819 Reefmonkey 5 4107314 One should not tip on the lowest common denominator. That strikes jfood as looking for a gotcha. And jfood couldn't care less about inside baseball with a restaurant. But the post that jfood responded to states that if she does not "get good to very good food, the seat I want within reason, pleasant and timely service" then she will leave a zero tip. That is just wrong. Wed Oct 15 18:32:23 -0700 2008 4106033 11290 jfood 6 4120009 A "gotcha" is when someone is looking for a reason not to do something, they stand up and yell "Gotcha!!!" Then they feel justified in their action, in this case not leaving a tip because the hostess did not give them their entitled table. "Inside Baseball" refers to things that occur behind the scenes. For example, how a restaurant decides internally how tips are pooled and split are of no concern to the customer. BTW - jfood believes if one does not know the answer to a question, all one needs to do is ask politely.. Tue Oct 21 18:54:19 -0700 2008 4119821 11290 jfood 7 4123882 Okay...can you do me a favor and confer with jfood (and any other personalities or voices that might be rattling around up there) and ask him how he reconciles his comment that "inside baseball" - the behind the scenes operation of the restaurant- is of no concern to the customer, with his comment to dolores that acknowledges that seating and the quality of the food and timeliness of service might be beyond the control of the waiter? Certainly the latter perspective MUST assume some understanding of the restaurant business, while the former perspective feigns a complete ignorance of the restaurant business. Basically, you have submitted that providing a fair tip requires the patron to separate the waiter's quality of service from the quality of service of the rest of the staff. If doing so were just a matter of acknowledging that the waiter did not seat you, nor that he did not cook the food, it would be simple. It doesn't work that way, however. Did your salad and entree come out at the same time because the cooks and runners screwed up, or because your server forgot to make the correct entry in the positouch to have the salad come out first? Did your food take an hour to come out to you because the kitchen is backed up, or because your waiter forgot to put your order in until just 15 minutes ago, or just forgot to go check if it was ready, so it languished in the kitchen for 45 minutes? Most customers do not have enough information to decide. They also do not have the ability to selectively reward one employee that performed well while penalizing another who did not. Your method (sorry, jfood's method), of absolving the waiter of all service problems that may have been out of his control (but some also may have been in his control per above) is problematic in several ways. First, it requires simultaneously acknowledging the way a restaurant functions (division of responsibility) and ignoring the way a restaurant functions. In situations where the service was bad but you decide it was not the waiter's fault, it wrongly overtips the cooks, etc, for doing a bad job since they get part of his tips. In situations where you decide the waiter was at fault (even if the rest of the house performed impeccably) and thus reduce his tip, then you are wrongly reducing the tips of all the cooks, busboys, hostesses who performed their job correctly. That's what happens when you feign ignorance of tip pooling, which is as bad as not tipping because you refuse to accept the reality that we, the customers, directly pay the restaurant's employees. The only fair and even-handed way to deal with this is to acknowledge both that the service and food you get at a restaurant is a team effort, and that the tips you give the waiter are shared by the team. Thus you are not tipping the waiter, you are tipping the team, and it is perfectly acceptable to reflect your satisfaction with the performance of the team as a whole in the amount of tip you leave. Another thing, dolores gives four criteria for tipping - 1 - Quality of food 2 - seating location 3 - Pleasantness of the server 4 - Timely server It seems like a comprehensive list to me. Now jfood says that 1,2,and 4 may be out of the server's control and therefore, it seems, he should not be held accountable when tip is decided. I will agree that 1 and 2 are almost always out of the server's control, but 4 may or may not be hard to determine. That leaves 3, the server's attitude, which is the only thing we undoubtedly is in his control. Now jfood says that this is purely subjective. Could you ask jfood if this means that the waiter should never be penalized for the customer's "purely subjective" opinion of the waiter's attitude? So, if one can't tip on seating, quality of food, attitude of the server, or timeliness of the service, what does that leave the customer to base his tipping decision on? So where does that leave us? It means you have to always tip the same percentage, which apparently is now up to 20% according to most waiters (not the most disinterested party).. That makes the entire concept of gratuity in restaurants a farce. It is no longer an extra for service well-done, it is an entitlement. When some people suggest that the US system of restaurants paying their waiters less than minimum wage and passing the payroll responsibility on to the customers through tips should be abolished, and tips only being a small amount for outstanding service, others decry that suggestion, saying without tipping, American waiters lose incentive and service suffers. The logical conclusion of jfood's argument does the same thing - if the customer is not entrusted to make his own assessment of the waiter's performance and base his tip upon that, and instead is expected to tip the same percentage every time, then that tip becomes an entitlement and there is no incentive to give better service for better tips. Thu Oct 23 09:24:57 -0700 2008 4120009 232819 Reefmonkey 8 4128055 R What you described is a perfectly reasonable approach if that is what you feel comfortable with. But jfood never feigns ignorance when coming to a conclusion. He understands tip-outs and how a restaurant works. He also understands that things go wrong in a multi-variable equation in which numerous unconnected independent variables can lead to different conclusions. Yet he may not go all the way to believing that the Butterfly Theory effects the steak coming out well done when ordered medium-rare. And again you are correct to cite four criteria that another poster placed on this thread that are some of the independent variables in the equatio. But you failed to cite the totally unreasonable conclusion to this poster arrived at, namely "IF the restaurant deviates from the contract, I have the right, nay the responsibility, to leave 0% tip". The responsibility to leave zero tip if any of these tenets were missed. Read again ZERO!!! In fact even that poster came back seven minutes, yes 7 minutes after jfood mentioned that unreasonable position and changed it to "The tenets of my contract are not individual, they are a group. I expect ALL of the expectations of my contract to be met, and if they are not, the tip is degraded accordingly." Now it went from zero to degraded. If a customer has a problem with the table, tell the hostess when she gives it to them. Has a problem with the food, tell the waiter when he comes over and asks how everything is. If a customer waits in the weeds and then crashes the tip, then this is a sign of entitltement and cowardess on the part of the customer and is the epitome of "gotcha". There should not be entitlement on either the customer nor the server's side. Jfood totally agrees with you on the biased inputs on these threads for the 20% tip being standard. It ain't. For jfood to leave the 20, not only do those four criteria need pretty close to perfect, but there are others as well, but not for this thread. Ciao RM Sat Oct 25 06:37:38 -0700 2008 4123882 11290 jfood 9 4131301 I see, and your response is reasonable. You and I were looking at the issue from two different angles. I was focusing on the issue of overall service, including the hostess and the quality of the food being reasonable criteria for tipping when you take into account tip pooling. I pretty much ignored the idea of tipping zero percent if any one of those criteria isn't acceptable, because I consider it a ludicrous idea. You were mostly focusing on the idea of tipping nothing if the overall dining experience is not, in essence, perfect. On that issue, you and I are in complete agreement. It is an extremely rare situation that justifies leaving no tip, and in such a situation, the manager should be called over to the table. Mon Oct 27 06:38:16 -0700 2008 4128055 232819 Reefmonkey 10 4137722 Re - your last clause. Absolutely agree. Anyone who leaves zero tip and fails to have a chat with the MOD on the way out is about as self-absorbed and entitled a response as possible. By that time of the night (i.e. if the tip gets to zero) so much would have had to go wrong that a MOD would have been at the table prior to this. Wed Oct 29 19:41:50 -0700 2008 4131301 11290 jfood 5 4231821 I have left, money under my plate for the busboy, when I reduced my tip due to poor food and/or service. You do have a little control of where the money goes. Tue Dec 09 06:13:35 -0800 2008 4106033 137946 Scargod 1 3948426 For what it is worth, I will use the visa slip to note my concerns in the hope that someone higher up will see them. More immediate than a letter, which while often intended to be written, almost as often is not! A zero tip and a note that cannot be destroyed can make a stement to the server or the chef. A good server with a bad chef can still get a tip while my notes will be directed the the chef. Mon Aug 11 16:11:24 -0700 2008 3945796 74367 foodiesnorth 2 3949221 That is a great idea - it covers it on every level! Mon Aug 11 21:56:49 -0700 2008 3948426 111267 meatn3 2 3949490 Wow, foodiesnorth, what a GREAT idea! Now there is something no server or manager will throw out. Excellent, thank you. Tue Aug 12 04:38:23 -0700 2008 3948426 11104 dolores 1 3950005 A decent restaurant manager/owner would agree with the guest and apologize for their awful experience and not only waive the gratutuity, but adjust the bill as well ! Afterwards, if it is determined that the server was not at fault, the restaurant could provide compensation for the lost tip. Does this happen ? Probably not as often as it should but that is exactly how I would handle the situation as a manager/owner. I mean let's assume the bill for the party of 12 was $500. 20% is $100. Is it really worth the headache to call the police for $100 ? Suck it up and learn form the experience. It sounds like this place (name and location please grphonskeeper !) has no clue. Where was the manager/owner during this whole debacle ? Probably hiding from the difficult situation and allowing a server to take the heat and then, like a coward, using the threat of poliice intervention as a solution. That, my fellow Hounds, is disgusting. Tue Aug 12 08:17:43 -0700 2008 3945796 50082 TonyO 2 3950526 True, TonyO. And let's hope they go out of business, really soon. Tue Aug 12 10:55:27 -0700 2008 3950005 11104 dolores 2 3950530 Never have I worked at a restaurant which provided compensation for a lost tip, for any reason. Some still require the server to tip out the bus boy, etc. based on the bill total even if there was no tip left. Once in a while, if you are working with a good crew who watches each others back, the other servers might all chip in a little to help ease the pain of a bad night. Same as how servers will often contribute when someone is unable to work for a while. When you work in a situation without benefits you often become each others insurance. Tue Aug 12 10:57:19 -0700 2008 3950005 111267 meatn3 3 3951009 It is rare but here is a night that I did compensate for a large lost tip; We had large group (15 or so) in for a holiday dinner. The night started off ugly and just got worse. They ordered 12 bottles of wine when they sat down (6 red/6 white all the same brand, kind of high end). We did not have the 12 bottles as ordered but offered similar wines. UNACCEPTABLE ! was their response. OK, we got past that hurdle. Next came the food. Ticket time approached 1 hour (250 + seats filled to capacity and an hour wait). I was pulled aside by the host of this party and had his index finger planted in my chest repeatedly until I had enough and asked him to return to his seat so I could work with the kitchen staff to expedite their meals. The food arrived, and round three started. Again, I was waved over and told, I quote" My f----- steak looks like a pe--- (male anatomy)." He then stated that he wasn't paying the bill (about $2,700). As I was new to the restaurant and area, I inquired about this individual who was with a locally based company and had been in before (sometimes with incident). I said, if that will end this ordeal, then leave and this will be handled at a later date. It was decided to reduce their bill by about $250 and reduce gratuity to 10%. As a manager, I decided to pay the difference in gratuity to the staff for suffering through this evening. I never saw that individual again but I had the respect of a very professional staff. Tue Aug 12 13:15:58 -0700 2008 3950530 50082 TonyO 4 3951215 You deserved the respect of your staff! Your action and management style is unfortunately a rarity in the restaurant world. Thats part of the reason I stopped doing that work, the managerial variable was just too crazy. There is much I love and miss about waiting tables, but that aspect made me finally move back into other areas. Tue Aug 12 14:47:35 -0700 2008 3951009 111267 meatn3 2 3950593 BRAVO !! The only time we were firm about service and tip involved worse than the original post and 3 tipped,spilled by the staff stems of expensive wine.Replacement of wine was denied,half of a $200.00 bottle.Dry cleaning bill or full cost to replace any clothes the wine stained permanently,also denied.Our host thought to call the credit card co.,they intervened.The poop of a manager was all for waiters position,until we showed him PICTURES,then very reluctantly compromised.It was an ugly evening. Tue Aug 12 11:16:23 -0700 2008 3950005 203919 lcool 3 3950622 Sounds like an interesting break away thread. Who is responsible for the cost of spilled beverages? Tue Aug 12 11:28:17 -0700 2008 3950593 14495 viperlush 4 3950912 I won't say who I think is.When expensive wine is lost,lands in food and on people.IMO the customer isn't out of pocket if the waiter was 100% at fault.This was a "fine dining" establishment,big money investment,lasted 7 or 8 months. I would love to hear other thoughts on this.I am trade (consulting) and feel REASONABLE things should always be made good with,for the patron,client.Most people only ask for half of what you are willing to give,if you offer them the chance to be part of the solution. OK meatn3,question,how long should co-workers and staff support an employee that clearly is a liability,not just a rare effup day?Bonus and tip pools need to be a level field. Tue Aug 12 12:50:18 -0700 2008 3950622 203919 lcool 5 3951169 The playing field gets leveled out pretty fast. Generally a tight team is formed if all the servers have a similar work ethic/style. You tend to bond with the ones who work like you do - when you see a person who you know pulls their weight in the weeds, you do what you can to help them. The favor is repaid. Every one has an occasional difficult night where things outside of their control happen and they get stiffed in a bad way. If the team is strong they often help each other out in this circumstance. If someone is new, there is a period of assistance most servers will offer by way of stepping in to help with side work, difficult orders or a table which is out of the norm. Financial help is not offered or expected - people realize a training period = lesser take home. If someone just sucks at waiting tables, the help (non-financial) from their co-workers will dry up extremely fast. They need to find something else to do. Their ineptitude makes everyones job harder and does not reflect well on the entire restaurant. I know of one situation where a co-worker was injured quite badly - was carrying a coffee pot when an unattended toddler ran in front of her. She slipped and fell while trying to avoid the kid, got hurt and has never been able to work full time since then. Her situation is one of those where the individual slips through the cracks in our social service system. Many of her co-workers from the time (7 years ago) still pass on physical help or financial help as they can. She was a hard worker and was always there for her team - one of those situations where you realize it could have easily been you. Regarding your question - it's not really a "should". It is more an attitude of comradeship which often develops between coworkers who respect each other and have formed a tight, well run team. When you have that type of group you don't need to even say a word - just a glance can relay volumes and each member is very aware of what is going on with the rest of the floor, so things get covered quickly and efficiently. That is really one of the biggest pluses of restaurant work, the closeness and cooperation that a good group can achieve. Tue Aug 12 14:35:42 -0700 2008 3950912 111267 meatn3 6 3953579 GREAT,I do agree with you.Well written,my thinking is you are fine manager. My example was not iffy,the waiter was ?high,stoned?and the manager could not pass 20 minutes w/o a smoke.(missing) Wed Aug 13 10:31:13 -0700 2008 3951169 203919 lcool 4 3951155 technically, it's the server, although sometimes (independents not chains) the house will cover it, if the server isn't regularly a horrible clutz. if there were circumstances like a collision with a drunk customer or an uncontrolled toddler (both of which i've seen) it can get dicey as to responsibility. in the latter case the house ate about $65 worth of drinks because they didn't want to get into it with the parents, who paid no attention to their kid until they heard breaking glass. ime the establishment will pay cleaning bills but not replacement costs for clothing. Tue Aug 12 14:32:45 -0700 2008 3950622 46030 soupkitten 2 3952113 Weathervane Seafood Restaurant, Bedford NH. Tue Aug 12 20:41:34 -0700 2008 3950005 54116 gryphonskeeper 3 3954351 Thanks. I have limited experience with that chain (mostly in upstate NY). Wed Aug 13 13:34:50 -0700 2008 3952113 50082 TonyO 1 4105964 I totally sympathize with the patriarch, I'd be pretty steamed about a 20% service charge being tacked on when he got horrible service, but he could have handled this in a different way that would have worked much more to his advantage. When he got the check and saw that 20% had been tacked on, instead of not paying the service charge and getting up and leaving, he should have called the manager over, complained about the poor service, and then demanded that the charge be removed. A smart manager would do that, and on top of that give them anything from coupons for free entrees all the way up to comping the whole meal. If the manager refused to take off the charge, I would persist, first by reminding him that lots of people read Citysearch member reviews and if he is not satisfied he would post a bad review, and if that didn't work, raising your voice and making a scene is appropriate - the last thing the manager wants is all the other diners seeing an ugly scene with an unhappy customer, so he may just say "fine" just to get you out the door. If none of that works, the customer has two options - either begrudgingly pay the service charge and then write to the owners of the restaurant about his terrible experience, or do what the patriarch did in this case - pay cash less the service charge and walk out. As to whether or not doing what this patriarch did constitutes theft of services and could get him in legal hot water, I can't say for sure. I doubt that the police would care to get involved. It would be a low-priority call for them in any case, and the family could walk out before the police arrived. If the manager tried to hold them there he would be opening himself up to a charge of unlawful detention. If the guy had tried to leave without paying for anything, it might be worth the risk, but not for a tip. The manager's only real option would be to sue the guy in court (tough to do if he had no identification to tell him who to sue since the guy paid cash), but that would involve more time and money than a tip is worth, even if he won. As a response to those who say that the diner, by ordering, enters a contract with the restaurant, accepting the terms on the menu including service charge, I will mention that a contract works both ways, and so that would also make the restaurant contractually obligated to provide adequate service. If they did not, the contract is breached, and thus null and void. Wed Oct 15 09:44:18 -0700 2008 3945796 232819 Reefmonkey 2 4145163 The guy paid cash and the manager had no ID. However, there was probably a reservation made, and if caller ID was available, the phone number may have been logged as well. Also, I doubt that the family walked to the restaurant, so at least one license plate would have been gotten. As for the call being a low priority for the police, this is not necessarily true. In smaller towns where the police are not running from call to call, a call from a restaurant that a party is leaving without paying would most certainly bring a quick police response. Sun Nov 02 18:40:37 -0800 2008 4105964 16488 BigAppetite 1 4107766 If the statement regarding the service charge or gratuity was printed on the menu (boilerplate language), does that constitute a contract of adhesion? Do the diners have equal bargaining power with the restaurant? If the service charge is a term of the contract, and the service provided falls below the standard for that type of establishment in that community, has the restaurant not breached that term of the contract? If the aggrieved party seeks legal redress, is the contract construed against the drafting party (here, the restaurant)? Thu Oct 16 00:43:32 -0700 2008 3945796 196419 Kate is always hungry 1 4137994 Even if the menu stated a "mandatory gratuity" if the service was not up to par, as in the case outlined by the OP, I agree that no tip was earned and should not be paid. As I have stated in other posts here and in other threads, I am ANAL about service, but my expectations are scaled to the class of the restaurant. DW & I are going to a nice place on Friday night and I will expect a higher level of service than we got the other day at Chili's. I also do not punish the server for the sins of the kitchen...provided the server tried to remedy the situation in some way. (My fish is over-done. When the server asks if the meal is ok, and I tell him/her of the problem, I would expect the fish to be replaced with another portion. Points added. If the server fails to ask in the first place, it's points off.) Contrary to what is put out at every training class for people dealing with the public, the customer is NOT always right. Sometimes we can be real a**h*les. While there are people who are just waiting for an excuse not to tip (or "gottcha" as another poster put it), I am not one of them. It sounds as if the patriarch was not one of those either. A good server works hard and is on their feet most of the evening and deserves to be properly compensated. But it works both ways. If a server is to be given 20% they better provide commensurate service. As noted by other posters, whether not tipping when the menu says it is a requirement is legal or not depends on where you live. Apparently here in NY state a tip is still earned. Thu Oct 30 02:03:19 -0700 2008 3945796 226942 al b. darned 2 4148076 Just a follow-up to my last post. Dinner last Friday evening was everything it was promoted as. The food was great and the service was as good as expected, despite a full house. The final check was (quite a bit) over $100 and the tip was 25%. After dinner I shared similar comments with the chef/owner. This place will get a repeat visit. Mon Nov 03 21:55:45 -0800 2008 4137994 226942 al b. darned