546268 Wed Aug 06 18:01:41 -0700 2008 24 34 Wine 0 3936376 After doing a little research (i.e. surfing) I've found that brettanomyces or simply "brett" (i.e. a common spoilage organism in winemaking[1]) is used in some wines. But there naturally is some controversy surrounding its use in the wine community. From what I've read some agree that its use below the threshold of perception can be useful in adding complexity. While fewer believe that using levels of "brett" in wine at or above the threshold of perception can also be positive. I think that it would be interesting to have a few wines out there that are the equivalent to beers such as Flanders Red Ale (which I enjoy) in terms of obvious "brett" character. On the other hand I read (and agree) that because wine (unlike beer) is often about expressing place (terroir) pronounced "brett" would obscure the terroir quality in wines. Thoughts? [1] - http://www.wineanorak.com/brettanomyces.htm Wed Aug 06 18:01:43 -0700 2008 26180 Chinon00 1 3936472 I've never heard of a winery adding brett, though I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I've never heard of anyone using "brett" as anything but a negative in describing a wine. I hate brett. It smells and tastes like a horse's ass. Wed Aug 06 18:35:41 -0700 2008 3936376 50041 whiner 2 3938559 This may be more of a philosophical question but is the reason that “brett” is found utterly attractive in some beers (e.g. Flanders Red Ale) just perception? Or is there something about beer which allows it to “work” there and not in wine in your opinion? Thanks, Dave Thu Aug 07 12:27:58 -0700 2008 3936472 26180 Chinon00 1 3936566 Brett + Wine = Crap. IMO, it's a flaw. All brett should be eradicated. I think some things are attributed to brett that actually aren't brett at all -- particularly in the aroma deparment. In that case, and accurate descriptor would be the actuall aroma itself or the use of the term "brett-like." Include band-aids as one descriptor that is undersirable. In the palate affect department, brett is far more unattractive. In my experience, it imparts a metallic quality to the wine -- similar to the reaction tomato sauce has cooked in an aluminum skillet. Nasty. Wed Aug 06 19:19:38 -0700 2008 3936376 196217 Brad Ballinger 2 3936680 You're such a good poster, Brad...a couple of questions about the above: "I think some things are attributed to brett that actually aren't brett at all -- particularly in the aroma deparment." Which ones do you think are attributed to Brett that aren't really caused by Brett? "Include band-aids as one descriptor that is undersirable." That's Brett. Another aspect, another strain of Brett, but still Brett. Wed Aug 06 20:01:48 -0700 2008 3936566 18222 maria lorraine 3 3937388 Band-aids/adhesive tape is a descipter for an entirely different flaw,a virus that is systemic from soil to fruit. Brett is ubiquitous in nature,how much it gets around is a sanitation issue. There is a lot of TCA/TCB/BRETT info out there,no one wants any of these cooties around the winery etc.The virus is much tougher to overcome,ask the South Africans. great posts whiner & Brad Thu Aug 07 07:14:09 -0700 2008 3936680 203919 lcool 4 3938439 "Band-aids/adhesive tape is a descipter for an entirely different flaw,a virus that is systemic ffrom soil to fruit." A specific strain of Brett in the 4-Ethyl phenol group causes the Band-Aid smell. Specifically, it's a conversion of *vinyl*-phenol into ethyl-phenol that creates the plastic, burnt plastic and Band-Aid smell of Brett. Brett smells like many things, and this plastic/Band-Aid group of smells is just one of many that includes the barnyard group, the metallic group, and the sweet-smoky group The virus you mention may also cause a Band-Aid smell. Which virus is it? Thu Aug 07 11:53:29 -0700 2008 3937388 18222 maria lorraine 3 3939555 "Which ones do you think are attributed to Brett that aren't really caused by Brett?" I think some barnyard-type aromas aren't all necessarily brett. Earthy, funky, poopy, etc, can be just the way it is. Thu Aug 07 18:32:16 -0700 2008 3936680 196217 Brad Ballinger 2 3937470 One of the rare times I disagree with Brad . . . Brett IS a flaw, BUT . . . Kenneth Fugelsang ( http://cati.csufresno.edu/verc/pers/stories/k-fugelsang.html ) has done a lot of research with Brett at CSU Fresno and with researchers at Cornell. As with yeast, there are many different strains. In controlled experiments with California Pinot Noir deliberately infected with various single isolates of Brett, SOME wines were considerably improved with the addition of a specific strain of Brett, while others were completely destroyed by it . . . In the tasting in which I participated, we were served six wines -- the control wine, and five samples of the same wine, but each sample was infected with a different strain of Brett. The tasters ranked the control fourth. Three strains were preferred over the control sample; two were not. The tasters were are in the wine trade in one way or another -- winemakers, retailers, sommeliers, wine writers, etc. This certainly goes a long way -- in my mind, at least -- to explain why SOME people will say that they do not mind/actually like SOME Brett in their wines SOME of the time, but at other wines, any Brett at all is completely and utterly deadly to a wine's perceived quality . . . That said, I know of NO winery that is deliberately infecting any wine with Brett . . . nor should they. Cheers, Jason Thu Aug 07 07:38:47 -0700 2008 3936566 28122 zin1953 3 3937716 Thanks for the response. Question, when you say that no winery should deliberately infect their wine it can't be for taste exclusively; due to what was gleened from your tasting. Therefore are you saying that it is it more a concern of cross contamination and the deliterious effects upon wines that wouldn't benefit from brett, the inability to control the brett in wine where it may benefit in small quantities . . . Thu Aug 07 08:42:30 -0700 2008 3937470 26180 Chinon00 4 3938880 I wouldn't dare presume to speak for Jason, but I will chime in here about whether or not Brett can ever add something to a wine. Basic Brett Stuff: Lots of strains of Brett. Each creates different aromas and has different effects on the wine. Most will make wine taste lousy, but one in particular can add something. The strains of Brett in Europe are less offensive than the US strains. Sounds crazy, but it's true, and this idea shows up with some consistency in the overviews of Brett sensory impact around the world. How much Brett are we talking about? While a low level might not interfere with the enjoyment of a wine, a higher level may taste awful. It’s a matter of degree. Brett usually robs a wine of fruit flavor and aroma. It's like "cork" taint (TCA/TBA) in that way -- it actually diminishes the taste of the fruit and its aromas. So, the question with this is: how much fruit has been taken away and is there still enough fruit remaining in the wine so it's enjoyable? Some types of wines are better with Brett than others. Whites, not so much. Some reds, but not all. --- In terms of whether or not Brett can ever add something to a wine, the answer is yes, but only under very specific circumstances. A category of Brett is ethyl guaiacol, or what I call the sweet-smoky group. This Brett group smells/tastes a bit like smokiness with a touch of bitter, saccharine-like sweetness. If you know the chemistry of oak wine aging, guaiacol is one of things oak contributes to wine – the flavor of oak-derived smokiness, savoriness, vanilla, toastiness and tar are all guaiacol-based. Now, even though the Brett guaiacol has an ethyl, it can still add some similar contributory effects to wine if it’s at a low level. For example, the grape Syrah. Inherently, the wine made from Syrah has a subtle meatiness to it, a sausage-like or pepperoni quality to it. When that nice sweet-smoky Brett is at a low level in Syrah – like it is often in the Rhone region – it goes well with the Syrah meatiness. Bear in mind that the European strains of Brett are different. Brett even contributes part of the overall flavor of a wine known as the “house style” for a few wineries in the Rhone and Burgundy. If the wine didn’t have that savory/sweet-smokiness, you wouldn’t think it to be the same wine. Obviously, in this case, not too much fruit has been robbed from the wine by the Brett. This is what I think Chris is attempting at Cain Winery, like SteveG writes about below. White wines in the past weren’t so infected with Brett because their acid levels were higher than those of red wines. Brett doesn’t like acid. But now, Brett is showing up in more white wines, especially as they’re picked at later stages of ripeness and their acids drop (pH goes up). I rarely enjoy Brett in Pinot, in fact in the past, if it’s been detected at competition, we’ve disqualified the wine, but I can see that it’s at a very small level – and if it is the “nice” strain of Brett, it might be OK. --- But playing around with Brett is like playing around with plutonium. It’s dangerous. If the winemaker thinks he can use a little Brett (it’s a tertiary fermentation) for its flavor-enhancing qualities, that can easily blow up in his face. Brett is hardy, aggressive, and difficult to keep sequestered. Unless your winery has a scrupulous and very active cleaning program that uses ozone, Brett is probably going to go places in your winery you don’t want it to go. It is very, very difficult to get rid of. It infects barrels (it loves barrels), hoses, pumps, every single piece of winemaking equipment you have. Simple rinsing, even with power hoses, won’t remove it. It’s tough stuff. Once it starts growing, that small amount of contributory Brett can turn into an ugly amount of Brett that ruins your wines. Oh, but it gets worse. Brett can interact with other common spoilage organisms -- they get together and have a spoilage party -- and the two organisms together can create some of the nastiest smells you can ever smell in wine. One example: Ever smell mouse taint or mousecage in wine? It’s not due to Brett alone – it’s Brett holding hands with the lactobacillus hilgardi. Wretched. OK, to sum up...What kind of Brett, at what level, on what continent, used on what kind of grape, and who else it is partying with? Most important: the winery that had a nice, small amount of Brett in its wines a year or earlier may have an ungodly amount of it in their wines now. Hope this helped. Apologies for the ridiculously long post... Maria Thu Aug 07 13:41:01 -0700 2008 3937716 18222 maria lorraine 5 3939239 Long? You call that long? Heck, I write longer posts about the taco truck down my block. That ain't long! Actually, it's filled with good information, that should benefit this thread. That said, I find the flavors (that I attribute to Brett) in many PN's to be enjoyable. For me, its the slight "burnt sugar," notes. Not caramel, but more like the base of a flan that might have stood on the heat a tad too long - some bitterness, some sweetness, but with a burnt, or near-burnt aspect. WA and OR PN's seem to exhibit a bit more of this, than many other PN's, in my experience. Thanks for the post, Hunt Thu Aug 07 15:32:28 -0700 2008 3938880 11329 Bill Hunt 3 3939561 "One of the rare times I disagree with Brad . . . " Not that much of a disagreement, but that was an interesting read about the taste test and different strains. Since I wasn't there, I can probably say I wouldn't like any of them. For me, the biggest issue is the way brett shows up on the palate, as I decribed above. Thu Aug 07 18:34:28 -0700 2008 3937470 196217 Brad Ballinger 4 3940487 The amazing thing, Bad, was the number of UC Davis-trained winemakers who ***definitely*** preferred one or two of the Brett-infected samples of CA PN to the control sample. And . . . Danger! Danger! Warning, Will Robinson! Broad Generalization Approaching! . . . UC Davis grads tend to be absolute purists (as opposed to those of us who grew up drinking European wines). One bit of anything in a wine that might be considered as a flaw, and the wine is slammed! (Admittedly, this tendency may be tempered by experience -- the longer one is OUT of UC Davis, the more open one tends to become -- but I'm not sure it ever goes away.) But here were a dozen or perhaps two UC Davis winemakers all agreeing that some of the Brett-infected samples were better . . . . This was among 48 of us -- all "professional judges," attending the tasting as a part of a "continuing education" seminar. But keep in mind I am NOT a UC Davis Enology graduate, and I would clearly bow to maria lorraine and her informative post above for anything to do with the scientific aspects . . . or contact Ken Fugelsang at CSU Fresno. Cheers, Jason Fri Aug 08 07:24:57 -0700 2008 3939561 28122 zin1953 5 3940869 Re: the "absolute purists" generalization... Then the findings surprise me even more. I'm probably misguided here, but such purists tend to narrow in on terms like "varietally correct." Hard for me to reconcile that term with a definite preference to the presence of brett in some instances. I'm just sayin'. Fri Aug 08 09:34:03 -0700 2008 3940487 196217 Brad Ballinger 6 3941155 This thread brings to mind one of Kermit Lynch's wonderful newsletter essays titled "Attack of the Brett Nerds". A pefect reminder that we should avoid absolute statements where wine is concerned. Fri Aug 08 10:51:29 -0700 2008 3940869 13690 Sam B 7 3941675 Conversation between a UC Davis-trained winemaker and a UC Santa Cruz-trained winemaker: UCD: God, this smells like Brett! It's flawed! UCSC: Shut up and drink it. It's La Tache. Fri Aug 08 13:36:36 -0700 2008 3941155 28122 zin1953 8 3941919 Retailer, Producer, Importer, and Sales Rep in a conversation at the store where your winemakers bought the bottle... Retailer: (smells the wine) "I think you have a brett problem with this wine" Producer: "zeez iz the unique terroir " Importer : "It's perfumed by the herbs that grow wild all over the Cote D'Or" Sales Rep: " It got 95 on Burghound, your allocation is 6 Bottles" Fri Aug 08 14:49:52 -0700 2008 3941675 13690 Sam B 7 3941696 Purists miss out on a lot. There's another generalization. In a competition, varietal correctness becomes important, and it's a bit tricky these days as Pinot inches towards Syrah in style, and Syrah towards Cabernet. In the case of Brett robbing Pinot of its Pinot-ness, the wineanorak guy wrote a nice little paragraph on the degree of erosion of varietal character as Brett progresses: Progression of effects in Pinot Noir • Loss of primary fruit, particularly lifted violet and sweet cherry characters. Loss of new oak characters. • Hints of smoke and spice appear (4-ethylguaiacol) • The wine begins to smell and taste medicinal (4-ethylphenol) • Any silky characters disappear as the wines lose flesh • The bones of the wine are exposed, leaving acidity and rustic, drying tannins • Aromas of horse and bandaid appear (4-ethylphenol) http://ajevonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/54/4/294 --- BTW, the Fugelsang Brett Pinot experiment Jason mentions is at http://ajevonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/54/4/294 Fri Aug 08 13:42:02 -0700 2008 3941155 18222 maria lorraine 8 3941971 Thanks for the link, Maria. Just for the record, I was NOT part of the experiment itself. Rather, I attended a lecture and tasting that Ken presented to a group of wine judges as a part of a mandatory continuing education program for judges as a part of the California State Fair's Commercial Wine Competition. Cheers, Jason Fri Aug 08 15:08:46 -0700 2008 3941696 28122 zin1953 8 3943284 Maria, you're fantastic! Wow, this really explains the mystery case of burgundy that I had ; yum, spicy ! Ick, medicinal ! Yum, spicy ! ... etc ... I think about 1/3 of the bottles had this flavor that would have been welcome in an amaro, but not in a glass of red wine. I had no idea that was related to the bandaid/horse phenomenon. Sat Aug 09 10:49:58 -0700 2008 3941696 177724 tmso 9 3943464 I'm a sensualist, mainly, but I admit to getting a little geeky about this stuff. That all stems from a desire to understand flavor and its chemical underpinnings (whether food or wine), and where in the winegrowing or winemaking process a particular flavor develops. Is it from the grape itself, growing or viticultural practices, fermentations, chemical corrections or over-corrections, infections or oak aging or what? I've learned an enormous amount from tasting with winemakers with a chemistry bent or wine scientists who know a lot more than I do. I'm still always in school! Sat Aug 09 12:47:14 -0700 2008 3943284 18222 maria lorraine 6 3941667 Brad, this is simply because you can't get the idea of "Bret = Band-Aid" (or other "off" aromatic note) out of your head. Understandable, given the the preconceived notion that: >>> Brett + Wine = Crap. IMO, it's a flaw. All brett should be eradicated. <<< But the simple fact is (or rather, was) that at this tasting there were three samples of Pinot Noir that were BETTER than the control sample (a nicer bouquet, enhanced aromatics, etc., etc.), and two samples that were WORSE ("ultra" funky, equine feces, Band-Aid, etc., etc.). The fact that the aromatics were "better" pleased the "ultra-purists." This tasting tossed the idea of "Brett + Wine = Crap" -- not only for me, but several others (including winemakers) -- right out the window! ;^) Fri Aug 08 13:35:04 -0700 2008 3940869 28122 zin1953 1 3938626 After tasting at Cain Winery on Spring Mountain recently, I can report confidently that the tour guide/tasting administrator told us specifically that they cultivate a Brett-contaminated barrel with a specific strain that they like to add to their "flagship" Cain 5 blend. Compared to the other Spring Mountain blend on the table, it was noticeably leathery and barnyardy. I like the barest hint of the above flavor profiles in certain Pinots, but I found their attempt to use this on purpose to add new dimensions to the flavor went a bit too far and was out of balance. That said, I don't know if the tour guide was talking out of his derrière or not, because he said a few things about their corks, that they only have one supplier that they've used for years, which I personally know to be false. Maria, you've mentioned their head wine maker by first name before--can you confirm? Thu Aug 07 12:41:53 -0700 2008 3936376 17221 SteveG 2 3939271 I will say this about Chris -- he has been almost an obsessive experimenter. I think he creates 30 or so blends of wine to determine the final flagship wine, so I have no doubt that he has "a Brett-contaminated barrel." He is European and so has undoubtedly tasted contributory Brett. However, one single barrel can easily turn into all your barrels being contaminated with Brett, so I don't quite buy that. Calling Cain and confirming with your tour guide about the single Brett barrel would be best. I would only ask Chris about what he's doing with Brett if we were tasting his wines and we had already had been having a conversation about his wine-making in general. If I were to ask him out of the blue, he may feel I was challenging him or questioning his winemaking, and I don't want to give that impression. We do run into each other every so often, though. Thu Aug 07 15:56:50 -0700 2008 3938626 18222 maria lorraine