543128 Mon Jul 28 09:25:00 -0700 2008 100 29 Not About Food 0 3907895 Hi, I'd like to tap into any knowledge from Chowhound parents who have taught their Chowpups how to eat and generally behave in public places like restaurants. I have a one year old and shy away from taking him to eateries other than the local Indian and Turkish holes in the wall, where, till date, he has been pretty well-behaved, but now that he is getting more mobile, I can see that unless we start some serious restaurant-training, we won't be able to eat out anywhere nice for years. I have noticed that French and Italian kids seem to be remarkably well-adjusted to restaurant atmosphere, sitting nicely at the table and eating with the grown-ups. British kids less so. I would dearly appreciate any tips from parents on how to train a future Chowhound! Mon Jul 28 09:25:07 -0700 2008 74453 medgirl 1 3907930 Hi: Please help us keep the discussion here on topic, pleasant and constructive. General discussions about whether or not children 'belong' in restaurants are off-topic. Thank you. Mon Jul 28 09:31:12 -0700 2008 3907895 2 The Chowhound Team 2 4520924 No, thank YOU. I for one appreciate this recommendation. Thu Mar 19 18:44:40 -0700 2009 3907930 105625 EWSflash 1 3907939 I believe the key is to teach good manners at home and at the family dinner table. If it becomes their normal, then it's easier for them to adapt elsewhere. In my experience too many parents lower the expectations at home and then are surprised when the kids are unruly when they are out. Mon Jul 28 09:33:58 -0700 2008 3907895 11990 Janet from Richmond 2 3907970 Agreed. I was taught good manners, and though I did my best to irk my mother at other times, I was always respectful and well-behaved in public. Of course, I was reared in meanderthal times, before it became de rigueur to address one's teachers and other adults and people in positions of authority by their first names ... but I digress ... Also it helped that I was at an early age exposed to a variety of foodstuffs. This was in part due to my mother's eclectic palate and superb skill in the kitchen and the fact that I grew up in an immgrant neighbourhood where informal "day care" occurred between families of different cultures because a majority of families had both parents working. Mon Jul 28 09:40:05 -0700 2008 3907939 42449 mrbozo 3 3908046 I agree with Janet - it starts at home. Back in the last century, when I was growing up with 4 siblings, we knew (because we were constantly reminded) what constituted good manners. Approaching a restaurant as a group, we were reminded again that only our BEST behaviour would be tolerated. Anything less would result in "THE LOOK" and then, if it persisted. we would all be leaving, whether or not the food had been served. It only had to happen once for the lot of us to get the message. My parents felt that the best place for us to learn how to act in public was IN PUBLIC, so we were regularly taken, individually and as a group, to eat in progressively nicer places as we got older. My siblings have carried on this tradition, and I must say that my nieces and nephews, from the youngest to the oldest, are a pleasure to take to any restaurant. The youngest nephew, at almost 7 years of age, likes to point out the rowdy and rude children in restaurants and say "I never act like THAT!" Re: the OP's one-year-old .... yes, there will be a time when you really cant take him anywhere ... but once he learns to control some of his impulses, and the consequences therein, you'll be able to take him to better places. Just respect his tiredness factor and short attention span, and choose restaurants accordingly, In another thread someone mentioned that they often take their small children to Chinese buffet places, where they dont have to choose from a menu, the food comes almost immediately, and the child gets a chance to sample lots of different things, and/or have as much or as little of something that he/she likes. Mon Jul 28 10:01:13 -0700 2008 3907970 102895 Cheflambo 4 3908075 Ha - I just posted about "the look", having not seen your post! Mon Jul 28 10:09:44 -0700 2008 3908046 10985 MMRuth 5 3908212 "THE LOOK" - often given over the edge of the reading glasses of either Mom or Dad - was usually enough to quiet any of the three of us. I can recall perhaps only once when one of us was forcibly removed from the restaurant, had a good talking to outside, and was then allowed to return to the restaurant's table thoroughly chastened. Usually THE LOOK took care of it. :-) Mon Jul 28 10:43:39 -0700 2008 3908075 10532 LindaWhit 6 3908751 JUST got back from the grocery store w/ my two kids in tow. They got "the look" and quickly shut it and straightened up. It's a classic. I, too, agree w/ Janet. Expect them to behave at home as well as out. And, if they are unruly, by all means take them and leave as quickly as possible so as not to disturb other diners. At home, send them to their room. Next time you try to dine out, remind them of what happened last time and how they ended up in their room. Mon Jul 28 12:58:17 -0700 2008 3908212 71241 lynnlato 7 3910788 I agree, too! there is no difference between eating at home and in a restaurant. We eat all our meals sitting together at the dining table, none of this eating on the fly, in the car, leaning against the counter, etc. I brought up three boys, who always had dinner at the dining room table, just like I did when I was growing up, learning table manners largely by example, but also learning conversation, love of food, the sanctity (!) of sitting together... even if it meant me breast feeding at the table if I had to. French and Italian children are brought up doing this, and in fact probably eat out more often with their families than US children. Not that they were always perfect: one (4) bit the lip off a crystal wine goblet, another (2) escaped and ran out into the place in Arras. Tue Jul 29 07:34:34 -0700 2008 3908751 120073 cassis 8 3911028 Amen, cassis. We are a sit at the table together kind of family too. It's important to me and I enjoy it and think we're better as a family b/c of it. That crystal wine goblet episode sounds like it was scary - yikes! Tue Jul 29 08:44:16 -0700 2008 3910788 71241 lynnlato 2 3908043 I absolutely agree with Janet - my first thought was if they act properly at home, then they will be more inclined to do so when out at a restaurant. Just as my parents would send me to bed without supper if I or my siblings acted up, we also knew the entire family would leave if one of us acted up in a restaurant setting. Having said that - it's helpful if the parents bring a small coloring book and perhaps Cheerios (depending on the age of the child) to keep them busy while the restaurant is preparing the family's meal. For a very young child, being seated at the table means "food will be put in front of me right now" (at home), whereas in a restaurant, that can't always happen as quickly as the young child might expect. Setting those expectations at an early age that, when in a restaurant, they're making the food right then and there for the family and it's not ready to be served yet, will be helpful to all. Mon Jul 28 09:59:27 -0700 2008 3907939 10532 LindaWhit 2 4521098 Janet, That is the perfect place to begin. If taught well, and if the demonstrations by parents and siblings are good, the child will not feel ill at ease in a restaurant. I was lucky, in that I got plenty of "instruction" at home, and also from my governess. When I "graduated" to restaurants, it was a big deal. Yes, there were times that the lessons were forgotten, but I was always reminded of them, and knew to behave. Hunt Thu Mar 19 19:54:01 -0700 2009 3907939 11329 Bill Hunt 1 3907974 I think exposing a child to a restaurant when they are little is important. But like alot of behavioral issues it starts at home with how the parents interact with their child. We go out to eat alot with our almost 2 year old daughter, from hole in the wall spots, to chains, to the occasional $300+ meal at a top steakhouse in CHicago. Having your child have a wide palate, and to enjoy the food you are eating is a great start. Start sharing food off your plate as early as possible to accomplish this(our daughter eats crab, shrimp, lobster, caju food, middle eastern food, bbq, and pretty much everything we enjoy). Also diversions(books coloring books, etc) are a good tool, as well as both parents being ready to get up from the table with an antsy toddler to burn off some energy/boredom. Good luck, patience, and understanding is the key I think. Mon Jul 28 09:40:50 -0700 2008 3907895 26725 swsidejim 2 3908354 "Also diversions(books coloring books, etc) are a good tool, as well as both parents being ready to get up from the table with an antsy toddler to burn off some energy/boredom." being ready to get up from the table is key. Also, understanding that there are time when nothing's going to work and you just have to bail. There is a time (usually between 2 and 3 years old) where it just may be hard to go to a really nice place with your kid. It is not possible to reason with a toddler that doesn't want to be there. However, you may be as lucky as Swsidejim and have a 2 year old that is very well-behaved, and never have to worry! ( I agree it isn't just luck, behavior starts at home. But there are also some kids that are easier to deal with than others by nature) We have many good friends with children of varying ages, and we spend a lot of time eating out with them. For the most part, these outings have been very pleasant and fun. But it is very important to be aware of how your child is doing, and be realistic about their limits. To quote the sage Kenny Rogers: You gotta know when to hold 'em Know when to fold 'em, Know when to walk away, Know when to run... Mon Jul 28 11:22:37 -0700 2008 3907974 89969 moh 3 3908491 she has her moments as all children that age do..., :-) like you said you have to be quick on your feet, and know whose turn it is to adjourn from the table until it is safe to come back. We are very conscious of the other customers, and do not want to be rude by doing nothing. Mon Jul 28 11:55:50 -0700 2008 3908354 26725 swsidejim 4 3908623 "We are very conscious of the other customers, and do not want to be rude by doing nothing." Swsidejim, this is also key! As it has been said, good behavior starts at home. Kids learn their behaviors from their parents, and if parents set a good example by being considerate of others, the kids pick it up. I am always grateful to see this kind of consideration. Meltdowns happen, and that is fine, kids will be kids, and we love them for it. But it is gratifying to see parents deal with meltdowns in an appropriate manner. I take back my statement about you being lucky to have a well-behaved 2 year old! You are also clearly doing something right :) I am a little embarrassed about my memories of my behaviors as a child in restaurants. I was a hyper child, a bit precocious, and a little outgoing. And my parents had their hands full. Now, I ate very well, and would eat whatever was there! But I was very active and probably a little loud. I'd like to think it turned out ok... although now that I think about it, perhaps nothing has changed??? So Medgirl, take heart. The fact that you are even trying to train your chowpup is a good start. There will always be loud-mouth schnooks like me to make your chowpup look like an angel... Mon Jul 28 12:27:52 -0700 2008 3908491 89969 moh 3 3908758 Agreed on all comments regarding training at home, exposing a child early to restaurants, and being ready to bail. Maybe I was lucky, but the small number of times that I actually picked up my daughter and walked out to the parking lot while telling her that we needed to go home was enough to stop any crying or carrying on by the time she was three. She was so horrified that we were going to leave, that she cried more in order to get back into the restaurant, promising to be good. Before she was able to communicate this, we just got out of there quickly so that we didn't ruin the atmosphere for everyone else in the restaurant. So, we ate off-hours at family places, and ate quickly. A couple of observations: If you need to distract your child with games and toys in order to eat a basic meal, you may be staying in the restaurant too long. They can deal with it for 30 minutes at most. Pick the restaurant accordingly. Nothing was worse than driving a long way to meet family at a restaurant for Mother's Day etc., removing my child from her car seat after a long drive, and then strapping her into a booster seat (bring your own, but that is another topic) for a long meal. Little kids just can't sit still that long. It is pure torture, and you can't blame them for acting up. Between the car ride and the meal, they need to get some energy out of them. My friends and I would have all rather eaten at someone's home than a restaurant for a celebration during those years. When she was about three, we starting letting her dress up for the special occasion with junky jewelry and fancier clothes. That also seemed to inspire good behavior. We also always ate as a family, and that seemed to help prep for the experience. I see lots of Moms who feed their children "kid food" before Dad gets home, and they never eat together. Those kids don't seem to know the experience of sitting at the big table and behaving accordingly, especially if they were allowed to run amok while gobbling chicken nuggets. Note that traditionally, Italian and French families eat together with their children, so this may be a clue about how to train them at home. In the end, though, it may just be that some kids are naturally better at this than others. Mon Jul 28 13:00:56 -0700 2008 3908354 87837 RGC1982 4 3909479 We also always ate as a family, and that seemed to help prep for the experience. I see lots of Moms who feed their children "kid food" before Dad gets home, and they never eat together. Those kids don't seem to know the experience of sitting at the big table and behaving accordingly ~~~~~~~~~~~ YES, RGC! When we were old enough, we always ate together as a family (unless Dad was traveling for business, of course). Only if he were going to be home after 8pm did Mom feed us earlier (and often, she ate with us and then sat with Dad while he ate when he got home). Very important to eat together - find out what went on during everyone's day, discuss "problems of the day" and just be a family together. Hard to do nowadays with everyone going sixty-leven different ways with soccer, ballet, theater, etc., but it should be done as often as possible. Mon Jul 28 16:38:16 -0700 2008 3908758 10532 LindaWhit 4 4520983 When I was growing up we "ate as a family" and I still have horrible memories about that. God- my parents were both drunk y then and wanted to teach us both a lesson, with corporal punishment generously applied for every realor imagined transgression. I resolved to make things easier on my son. We had a little house that was laid out weird, so we ate in the living room, often together, but DH was a forest service firefighter in southern AZ and was gone a lot during the summer. What I taught was respect and learning to appreciate good food, and whatever family (nuclear or extended) happeed to be present. We lucked out, Young Son has always loved restaurants (to the point of being almost too excited to eat at times), and don't think I don't count that as a huge blessing. If your child is a hooniac (cross between a hooligan and a maniac)- and you know who you are-, please take pity on your fellow diners and take them to restaurants that are noisy anyway. They'll mature eventually, and you can then expand their repertoire. But you're STILL obligated to not let them spin out of control even when you're at a noisy place. Thu Mar 19 19:07:11 -0700 2009 3908758 105625 EWSflash 5 4527321 That is an extremely good suggestion - noise level can work in your favor if the general din of happy, slightly buzzed adults talking and laughing covers the occasional yelp from your young diner. Sun Mar 22 09:53:30 -0700 2009 4520983 42513 Mawrter 1 3908025 OK not having children but having been a child who was taken to restaurants at a young age, I think it all starts at home. We were taught to try a little of everything on our plate and not make a big deal of something if we didn't like it. That being said we ate pretty much everything. At restaurants my sibs and I always surprised servers by ordering the "grown-up" food, and making the server glance at my parents to make sure this was ok. I gotta say, who wants a burger with no toppings, a la "kids menu"? Also remember that you can "modify" some meals as well, ie "can you put the au poivre sauce on the side of my daughters' steak?" Just in case it's too spicy, also kids love to dip stuff :) Colouring books and things that don't make noise are good ideas too, as sometimes the wait for 5 entrees can be a bit long to a kid of 4 or 5. Mon Jul 28 09:55:14 -0700 2008 3907895 69079 starlady 1 3908067 Lots of great advice, I think. I don't have children, and so will just comment as one who was brought to restaurants from an early age (mostly in Europe, as a child) and dines with friends with children. There was "the look" from my mother (also meted out in church), that meant that if you don't shape up, there will be consequences. That seemed to work, though I'm guessing a child has to be of a certain age for it to be effective. I don't recall, particularly in upscale restaurants, my parents bringing us things to entertain ourselves with, but I think it's a good idea - though, presumably, there is an age level at which children should be able to participate in conversation ,etc. such that it is no longer needed. When I eat out and there are children nearby, I always appreciate it when parents are willing to take the children outside if they start to disturb the dining of others. (As an aside, a favorite story of mine that I read somewhere, was a young child at a nice restaurant, behaving well, who got up and went to a table of loud men and asked them to please use their "inside" voices!) Mon Jul 28 10:07:24 -0700 2008 3907895 10985 MMRuth 2 4520986 OMG- I LOVE it! Thu Mar 19 19:09:05 -0700 2009 3908067 105625 EWSflash 1 3908076 Our pups are 6 now, and can eat anywhere. Make sure your home behavior is in line with what you expect at a resto. If you child is allowed to leave the table when finished for example, they will expect the same when they are out. If they eat with their hands at home, expect the same while dining out. Unless they are extremely picky, a kid can find something they will eat almost anywhere. Let them choose their own dinner. They will select something they like, and will also feel like they chose it, so will not fuss and reject. You have started well, ramp upm to nicer places. Make sure that just because they see other kids at a family place running around, doesn't mean it is acceptable for them. Be ready and willing to leave the table if the behavior isn't acceptable. When behavior has become acceptable, then return. A second strike and you leave the restaurant for that attempt. We never actually had to do this, just the threat of being carried from the table was enough to convince them that good behavior was what they wanted to have that night. Mon Jul 28 10:10:12 -0700 2008 3907895 65531 lgphil 2 3916973 Clearly, if "just the threat of being carried from the table was enough to convince them that good behavior was what they wanted to have that night" you already had important things firmly in place: NEVER make a threat to a kid that you are not 100% prepared to carry out. Wed Jul 30 18:50:11 -0700 2008 3908076 43399 atheorist 3 3917943 When my niece and nephew were small I stated that if I had a nickel for every time I heard their mother promise she was going to leave a restaurant right now - and not once follow up - I could retire by age 35. Needless to say, they ignored her completely. When my child was born I swore that I would not fall into the same trap. It only takes once or twice making good on a threat to have the child know you mean it. Thu Jul 31 06:55:34 -0700 2008 3916973 25244 rockycat 1 3908096 I will dissent with some of the others, with the disclaimer up front that I am not a parent (we can't have children) but good manners in a restaurant was something that was ingrained in me and my sister from the time we were small. The dissention comes from the fact that at home, while we certainly weren't behaved like wild animals, going to a restaurant required EXTRA special good behavior. At home, we had basic and simple etiquette such as asking to be excused and keeping generally good table manners but going to a restaurant was a Big Deal, and if you couldn't behave, we would leave until you could come back and act like a person, not a monkey. Because going out was seen as such a treat, the threat of the visit being cut short due to bad behavior was generally enough to quell further bad behavior, and the few times we actually had to pack up the food to go and leave because someone refused to behave (usually me) were very few. I suggest the approach be taken the same way it is in other etiquette. At home, you can relax things to a certain extent in your personal behaviors as long as you're not gross or impolite, but when around others, you should be on your best behavior. I think this allows children to feel a little more free and to enjoy their time when at home, but also discern the important difference of how to behave when in other people's company. Just my 2 cents. Mon Jul 28 10:15:57 -0700 2008 3907895 19518 rockandroller1 2 3914278 Yes... we eat dinner as a family and have certain expectations (very minimal at this point.. she's 2!). But when she starts acting up at a restaurant, I tell her "this is a nice restaurant and these are all nice people who don't want to hear you screaming'. And I give a stronger reaction to other bad behaviour too. Emphasis on, this is a RESTAURANT and the expectations are higher here. I don't expect this message to be effective at this age, but I want to start setting the tone. And last night, when we went to a local hambuger chain, she said as we went in the door "no screaming in here". I love the dress up idea... my parents also always let me order Shirley Temples. I am bookmarking this thread for future reference. It's gratifying to see other parents agree that 2 to 3 is not a great restaurant age. It's just really hard for her to wait for food (especially when she can smell it) or sit in her chair once she's finished. That's a 10-minute window. Wed Jul 30 06:32:06 -0700 2008 3908096 12120 julesrules 1 3908180 We have never had to leave a restaurant due to poor behavior from our son. My suggestions: Always have some amusements on hand. I kept a couple small cars just for restaurants so my son wasn't used to playing with them. They were like "new" toys and held his interests. I also had some crayons and paper and a small sticker book. Before heading out to a restaurant, make sure your child has had their nap (if age appropriate) or at least make sure you aren't eating too late when the child is tired and cranky. Don't let your child get too hungry. They just can't wait very well. Put a small serving of cheerios or whatever in a baggie to tide little appetites over. We didn't attend fine dining establishments but we didn't eat in dives either. Pick a family-freindly place to eat. BBQ places were a favorite as were ethnic restaurants. Chinatown is a great choice. Certainly good table manners at home were insisted upon. There was also the threat (little used but very effective) of going to sit in the car with me while the others finished their meal. "And believe me, you don't want to do that!" Take the child or children for a little walk if they are getting restless and flirting with getting in trouble. When we dined out with other families, the kids who were the most troublesome were typically not well-behaved anywhere, including home. They had no respect for their parents and did not take their threats seriously because mom or dad didn't follow up on any of them. My son knew if he got the "look" that he was flirting with disaster and settled down quickly. Mon Jul 28 10:34:00 -0700 2008 3907895 15131 three of us 2 3908236 three of us, I completely agree with your post, especially the part about EXTRA special behavior, and imo, the behavior at a find dining establishment should be EXTRA EXTRA special. I'll never forget the couple who, while waiting on line to get into a restaurant (I can't remember why I agreed to wait on a line but that's neither here nor there), decided to change their kid's diaper. On the line. On the sidewalk. In front of the restaurant. I knew then that the dining world as I knew and loved it was coming to an end. I wasn't far from wrong. Oh well. Mon Jul 28 10:47:45 -0700 2008 3908180 11104 dolores 3 3908693 Yes, it's sometimes it's not the kid that is at fault but the parents. A few weeks ago, I was at the restroom of a restaurant washing my hands when I just couldn't help but notice the woman next to me holding her kid over the sink while he was urinating. The urine was also not coming out in a clean stream, but was getting all over the sink, the faucet handles and the counter. Why couldn't she do this over a freakin' toilet?!?!?! Some parents just have no clue. A lot of great and thoughtful responses in this thread. I hope some of the more clueless parents out there reading will pick up some tips.. Mon Jul 28 12:43:11 -0700 2008 3908236 10763 Miss Needle 4 3908724 OMG that is disgusting! Mon Jul 28 12:52:12 -0700 2008 3908693 19518 rockandroller1 3 3908721 Oh my. That's (almost) unbelievable. And the child they're raising is supposed to have manners? Ummmm, I doubt it very highly. Mon Jul 28 12:51:32 -0700 2008 3908236 143696 Catskillgirl 3 3915009 Admittedly, I was at the zoo in their cafe, but a couple 4 tables away changed their daughter's diaper AT THE TABLE. Wed Jul 30 09:31:18 -0700 2008 3908236 15250 sebetti 4 3915071 OK, there's got to be a health code violation here. I cannot believe no one from the cafe asked them to not do so. Wed Jul 30 09:41:54 -0700 2008 3915009 10532 LindaWhit 5 3915340 i would have a heart attack and die if i saw anyone do that. bet they change the kid on the kitchen counter or eating table at home, too. where was the mgmt of the cafe? Wed Jul 30 10:46:28 -0700 2008 3915071 46030 soupkitten 6 3916313 Come on you guys! She said they were OUTSIDE the restaurant standing in line (actually "on line", meaning she's probably from New York? <g>), and they laid the baby on the SIDEWALK to change it! My prime concern was whether it was a hot day and they ended up with fried baby! Wed Jul 30 14:58:34 -0700 2008 3915340 112096 Caroline1 7 3916345 we're responding to Sebetti's post, C-- not Dolores.' << a couple 4 tables away changed their daughter's diaper AT THE TABLE. >> Wed Jul 30 15:08:01 -0700 2008 3916313 46030 soupkitten 8 3916614 Oooops! Sorry. :-) Wed Jul 30 16:42:19 -0700 2008 3916345 112096 Caroline1 4 3916338 I'm nauseous. Ugh. Someone should've escorted them to the gorilla cage so they could dine there where that behavior would be welcomed. Wed Jul 30 15:06:42 -0700 2008 3915009 71241 lynnlato 4 3916449 It happens a lot. Wed Jul 30 15:45:43 -0700 2008 3915009 15562 nc213 1 3908214 Just let the little one bring along his/her gameboy. That will keep them occupied. Mon Jul 28 10:44:01 -0700 2008 3907895 208638 The_Whistler 2 3908253 Thinking about this more, I do think that adults also have a responsibility, once children reach a certain age, to make sure the children are engaged in the conversation. We went out on the Fourth of July to a BBQ at my husband's tennis club to watch the fireworks, with a friend and his two children (12 & 15). Because of traffic/access issues we had to be at the location three hours before the fireworks started. That's a long time to have for kids to have to "hang out" with three adults, but my husband and I made a big effort to make sure at least one of us was engaging them in (hopefully interesting to them - we try!) conversation. I do think it's a bit sad sometimes when I see older children in their own world with their game boys or whatever, rather than a part of the conversation (understanding that teens can be sullen, withdrawn, etc.!). Mon Jul 28 10:52:27 -0700 2008 3908214 10985 MMRuth 3 3908292 I agree, MMRuth. I think one of the reasons my 7 y/o nephew is not a problem in restaurants is because he is usually engrossed in his Gameboy, to the point where you have to take it away from him to get his attention. Oh well, at least he's quiet. And he stops playing when the food comes. At 12 and 15 I would hope the young adults would be more socially involved, but I also know that doesnt always happen either (depending on the situation). Mon Jul 28 11:04:50 -0700 2008 3908253 102895 Cheflambo 4 3908400 I don't object to a Gameboy or other handheld game, but please make sure the sound is turned down. It really grates on my nerves to be next to a table with all the weird electronic noise spewing forth. Same thing goes for the toddlers that have the noisy toys that the child bangs on the table or rattles incessantly. Medgirl, you can gauge how your child will behave, by how they do at home. If they are food flingers, and at some point they all are ;-), then you may want to wait until they get past that stage. Our first born was fine at home, but for some odd reason it totally unnerved her to be in a restaurant. I don't know if it was the people, the noise or what. I took snacks, books, quiet toys, but as soon as our food was set down she would break into sobbing tears. She wasn't that loud, but it distressed us to the point that we would pack up the food and go home. For awhile we only ate at cafeterias. She was too young to scold, and the "LOOK" didn't work yet, so we just had to do our best. We kept after it, to a certain extent, and after about 6 months she got over it and was fine. It was just a stage. Every 6 months you have a whole new child, so keep that in mind! Good luck. Mon Jul 28 11:36:28 -0700 2008 3908292 80937 danhole 5 3908422 danhole, I've never seen it again, but at a Christmas eve dinner out a number of years ago, a family at the next table had set up in front of a child, possibly 5 or 6, a DVD player, and he watched a movie the entire duration of the dinner. He was dressed in an smart little suit, and I am not sure if his dinner was placed behind or alongside the DVD player. Incredible. Mon Jul 28 11:41:12 -0700 2008 3908400 11104 dolores 6 3908747 As far as table manners go, there should be new rules for this century. No electronics at the dinner table. No ipod, gameboy, handheld games, DVD players, CD players, etc. The art of conversation should be more encouraged. I have some delightful conversations with my 6 yr old grandson while waiting for a meal. So far he thinks his "Gigi" is pretty entertaining. Let's hope that lasts for a few more years! Mon Jul 28 12:57:27 -0700 2008 3908422 80937 danhole 3 3915300 Extremely perceptive. Talking to children and including them in the evening is one of the best ways to insure good behavior in older children. My own kids had some spectacular meltdowns in restaurants when they were young. The stuff of family legends. We learned to build-up the event ahead of time, to give the pep talk and "the look" as we entered and to select their dinners first. Now my grand-daughters started ordering for themselves at the age of 5. We always get terrific service when dining with the grands because they are cute, well dressed, well behaved and articulate. Also they are well versed in please and thank you. No gameboys or toys for our kids. Just engaging family conversation that all take part in. Wed Jul 30 10:39:13 -0700 2008 3908253 60822 Pampatz 2 3910664 Geez, I hope that was supposed to be sarcastic, Whistler. There's nothing I hate more about childhood behavior than watching a little kid plugged into an electronic device, oblivious to the world around them. Besides, those things are annoying to other customers. Back to topic, we've brought our child to restaurants since she was born. We followed all the common sense advice - don't let the kid get too hungry, always have crayons or a book available, be ready to walk out on a moment's notice, etc. Two other things. I always, always checked out a menu first to be sure there would be at least one item I knew she would eat and, when we started upping the ante to include more "adult" restaurants, I would explain beforehand that we were going to a very special restaurant and even better than usual behavior was required. She's 6 yo now and never had a problem, thank goodness. At home, on the other hand, not a meal goes by when I don't have to make an issue over table manners. Some kids just know when to pull out all the good behavior and it isn't at home. Tue Jul 29 06:48:26 -0700 2008 3908214 25244 rockycat 3 3915536 What's the difference between a kid that tunes out the world by playing a Gameboy or watching a DVD (both either muted or with headphones) and a kid who tunes out by colouring with crayons or by reading a book? I thought that the goal is to keep the kid(s) from being disruptive and how ever the parents reach that goal... Not trying to be argumentative, just curious. Wed Jul 30 11:38:06 -0700 2008 3910664 14495 viperlush 4 3915555 I think most parents would rather see their child coloring, or reading a book rather than playing a game boy, or staring @ a t.v.. Wed Jul 30 11:43:11 -0700 2008 3915536 26725 swsidejim 4 3915569 In my three daughter-units' cases, they were more interactive, trying to win at the games or asking about colors. Playing a gameboy or watching a movie is pretty solo. Wed Jul 30 11:45:42 -0700 2008 3915536 11175 The Ranger 4 3915604 You don't just toss the book or coloring page at the child. You color with them or read with them, or just talk about the pictures. It's best to have an activity book, for the older ones (3 & up) so that you can do something together. If it's a younger child you can always play the "can you find the ____?" in the illustrations of the book. The children I see that get so out of control are the ones where the mom & dad order their drinks, toss something at the child and expect the child to entertain themselves. And the child does so by causing a ruckus, just to get a little attention. Wed Jul 30 11:54:40 -0700 2008 3915536 80937 danhole 5 3915627 you are 100% correct. I dont want my daughter to tune out the world, I like to interact with her and her coloring, and reading. Wed Jul 30 12:00:34 -0700 2008 3915604 26725 swsidejim 6 3915801 It's like a prop to help faciliate conversation and engagement, because young children don't really "make conversation". Wed Jul 30 12:46:20 -0700 2008 3915627 12120 julesrules 7 3915895 I guess it depends on the child and what age they are at. My daughters conversed from a young age, and my grandson did also. Now My granddaughter is 2 1/2 and she is just beginning to have conversations. She will ask me "Gigi, are you happy?" and it goes from there. It is a short conversation, but it is one she initiates. The boy, though, often strikes up a conversation, and has since he was very young (about 2 years) with whomever is nearby. It's was fun to watch adults leaning over to tell him where they live and what their favorite movies are. They looked like he was some kind of alien! Wed Jul 30 13:08:50 -0700 2008 3915801 80937 danhole 5 3916161 Thanks, that makes sense. They way that I was is the parent just handing over the toy/crayons/book and just letting the kid have at it. I just assumed that the goal is to keep the kid quiet and occupied so that it doesn't disturb others. I thought of them as aids for when the kid is bored, everything else has failed and the parent is trying to hold things together (hence the "tuning out"). It didn't occur to me that the parent would be bring this stuff so that they could use it to interact with their kid. Obviously I have no kids and have never spent any time around them. But since I will soon be an aunt I am trying to learn :) Wed Jul 30 14:15:21 -0700 2008 3915604 14495 viperlush 6 3916395 viperlush, when I think crayons, I think of something to keep the kids occupied 'before' the food comes. The kid I saw had the DVD player in front of him for the entire meal. I didn't have a good view of this atrocity, so I couldn't see where the server put the meal nor how the kid managed to eat his food. On crayons, one of my most favorite restaurants in NJ has a paper tablecloth, crayons AND the most amazing food in the state. Last I was there, they put up the picture I made for them extolling their virtues. Nice to see there is a 'Y' with parents, I didn't think there were still Y's. Wed Jul 30 15:23:12 -0700 2008 3916161 11104 dolores 7 3918052 Also if the restaurant provides the crayons, I can see that even at age 2 it makes my daughter feel like "this is a place that has something to offer kids" rather than "a random place my parents dragged me to". I know a lot of people have the idea that kids should be brought up to interact with adults, etc, but I think it's a two-way street... if there's NOTHING to interest her at a restaurant why should she want to be there very long? Even just the server making nice and asking her questions makes a big difference. The crayons themselves at this age don't actually interest her all that long, I often end up using them to draw pictures of family members, letters / numbers and other things that interest her and we can chat about. Thu Jul 31 07:31:06 -0700 2008 3916395 12120 julesrules 8 3918378 Good point. Also, as soon as they are able to be understtod, let them give the order to the server. They will feel like they 'own' the dish, and be more patient/eat better. Thu Jul 31 09:01:54 -0700 2008 3918052 65531 lgphil 9 3924392 This is a great tip and so true! Thinking back, I remember that my parents did this with my little brother and I at a very young age. I can remember feeling very grown up and a respected member of the dining party. You know, I never really thought about just how great my parents were about this until I read your post. Not only could we give our own orders to the server, we could usually order whatever we wanted and my parents never said a word. (We didn't go out that often, but when we did, there were little to no restrictions.) I learned how to be an adventurous eater at a young age because of this and I can even remember ordering snails at a french restaurant when I was maybe 10 and loving them! :) Sat Aug 02 09:47:45 -0700 2008 3918378 63569 flourgirl 10 3924939 Hadn't given it much thought, but I also let the kids order their own food from the menu. I also had a "rule' that when one of them had a doctor appointment, that child got to choose the restaurant for all of us to go to afterward. When my daughter was about four or so, and we still lived in the San Diego area, she chose the Ruben E. Lee for lunch, a big "river boat" anchored in the harbor. When I read her the menu, she decided she wanted the bucket of clams, and that's what she ordered. I thought to myself, "Well, this could be interesting. Let's just see how it goes." She loved the clams! Sopped up the juices with bread like she had clams three times a week. When the waitress brought a finger bowl, I promised myself that whatever she did would be fine. If she picked up spoon and had it for soup, I would not say a word. The finger bowl was set before her, she looked over her place setting, carefully rinsed her fingers in the bowl, dried them on the extra napkin provided, and thanked the server. I was STUNNED...! We also gathered an audience of wait staff. Kids can be so amazing if you give them half a chance. :-) Sat Aug 02 14:26:13 -0700 2008 3924392 112096 Caroline1 11 3925926 "Kids can be so amazing if you give them half a chance." That's it exactly! I really believe that. And I loved your story. The part about the finger bowl is priceless. Sun Aug 03 06:09:30 -0700 2008 3924939 63569 flourgirl 1 3908322 Thanks to all who replied. 'THE LOOK', lol !!! I so admire parents who have 'THE LOOK' down to a T. It's an art. I dread not being able to achieve it. The ideas are great. We love to eat out, and hopefully with tips picked up here, can continue to do so with the pup in tow. Mon Jul 28 11:12:22 -0700 2008 3907895 74453 medgirl 2 3908360 The fact that you even asked the question means that you're attuned to the possibility of problem. Just ask yourself, "as a diner, would I enjoy being seated nearby?" and you'll know how things are going. Paying attention to your child will give you all the clues you need. Parents with good manners generally rear mannerly children. THE LOOK is powerful when used appropriately, which means not too often and likely has zero impact on a very young child. Making a game of "who can sit the stillest" or "drink their water most slowly" worked for us when we first began taking our boys out to eat. We also played Restaurant at home, with actual written menus, Dad as waiter and Mom as cook. The boys played along with the gag but learned in the process. And, yes, we chickened out by using child-friendly places as training restos before progressing to more formal environs. FYI: the downside of rearing a young CH is that they really do enjoy food and will not be fobbed off with PB&J, instead asking for artichokes, lobster and oysters. $$$$$ be damned, I'm glad I did what I did and would do it again ..... oops, have already begun with the grandchildren. Mon Jul 28 11:23:50 -0700 2008 3908322 15743 Sherri 2 3908424 One more thought about the "LOOK." Some children respond better to a hand signal, as in putting finger to mouth meaning hush, or the famous zip your lips motion, or whatever you find to distract them and let them know that you mean business. My granddaughter responds to the "LOOK" by imitating it and giving it back to me, lol! But a finger to the lips and a gentle "shush" and she settles down. Mon Jul 28 11:41:50 -0700 2008 3908322 80937 danhole 2 3908535 There is one hard fast rule about making "THE LOOK" an effective tool. I've seen too many parents threaten to discipline their children, but never follow through. They just keep repeating warnings, telling their kids to stop or else, and the "or else" part never happens...the pattern just continues ad nauseum, ad infintum, and the kids, smart critters they are, learn rapidly when the threat of discipline is hollow. For "THE LOOK" to be effective, like any other technique, has to lead to consequences as promised, or it is just idle talk. I have even told my kids "I ask nicely the first time, I tell you want I want you to do immediately the second time, and if I have to get to a third time, you will know you are in big trouble." When you start early, and they know you are serious, you may never even get to a third time. Once you get that down, you can take your kids anywhere. Mine have been going to restaurants with us since babyhood, and I can't recall them ever disturbing other patrons or causing a meal to be unpleasant. In fact, they love going to restaurants more than my wife and I do, and I love taking them with us to enjoy good food and company. Mon Jul 28 12:06:58 -0700 2008 3908322 116345 ChefBoyAreMe 3 3908613 Very good advice Chefboy! We had the "3 strikes you're out" rule and they knew what that meant! Mon Jul 28 12:25:55 -0700 2008 3908535 80937 danhole 1 3908368 some great advice here, and it does truly begin at home. i think that kids' natural desire to be "big girls/boys" can really be cashed in on, and special, memorable meals at nice places can be a great reward for kids for good report card, etc. i remember when i was very young being taught how to eat with chopsticks, and when my abilities were deemed acceptable (it seemed to take *forever,* though it was probably like a month), my mother set the table with the beautiful dishes she brought back from japan and the family had a special meal, and after that, i could go eat in chinese and japanese restaurants! i was really proud of myself and thought it was a huge milestone in my young life. i think kids respond positively to: "wow janie you were so well behaved at the buffet that i think you can go with us next week to a real chinese restaurant, where you can order whatever you like off of the menu!-- & then you can have "menu practice" with takeout menus at home. i really think that "practicing" for restaurants can be fun for kids, & if kids are prepped about how the restaurant will be, how the server will act, the elements of the meal, and, of course, how they will behave, then they know what's going on, they pay attention, they try to be good! when they are really little, the leaving restaruant/going out to sit in the car with one parent while everyone else is eating is a necessary threat. i'd add that appropriate rewards can be very motivating for small kids-- if you are good through nice dinner w grandparents, we'll stop at the playground on the way home to run around, and then after that we'll get some ice cream! then they have something to look forward to. dh and i were at an african restaurant recently and a lady was dining with her three children, two girls ages around 7-8, and a boy who was four. all of the children were well-behaved for their ages, but the boy eventually got squirrelly and the mother quietly admonished him to sit down properly in his chair and mind her, that he was four years old, and old enough to behave. his older sister who was across from him gave the boy "the look," and piped up loudly: "especially in a restaurant!" he shaped up immediately, trying to emulate his big sisters' good behavior. it was awesome. :) Mon Jul 28 11:26:08 -0700 2008 3907895 46030 soupkitten 1 3908471 I think a lot of people gave some very good advice...for older children. Your problem, right now, is that you have a child who doesn't have the capacity to understand the idea of behaving well in public...and it might be awhile before she does. A few rules I've picked up over the past year (23 month old) are: Don't go anywhere that might have too long of a wait time. I thought my son would love Ethiopian (and he did, at least the next day) but the 90 minutes that it took to get it to the table was a total deal breaker and the efforts we had to go through to amuse our child for that long in order to keep him in good humor pretty much wrecked the dinner for the rest of us…and since our child consumed so much of our back-up food, he was NOT interested in dinner once it arrived. Be flexible. Sometimes, it just doesn’t work no matter how well you try to plan it. Yes, we have left a restaurant after the apps with our entrees in to go boxes. My son just had too much energy and was too happy and just wanted to play, not sit at a table with crayons. Although he wasn’t screaming and whining, we realized that his desire to move around and explore (and invade other people’s space) just wasn’t fair to the other patrons. Understand that your child really is too young to amuse herself, you do need to interact with her the whole time. If you need some one-on-one conversation with your SO, save it for home or get a sitter. And finally, just ignore those people who visibly shudder and scowl at you when you are seated near them; when your child is older, they can be examples of how NOT to behave in public. Mon Jul 28 11:51:06 -0700 2008 3907895 15250 sebetti 2 4527487 Spot-on. There is so much wonderful advice in this thread that will not do jack for the OP for several years out. Sebetti gets it right on the nose. For a wiggly toddler, we'd generally do this: * arrive in restaurant with rested child in good mood & with well-stocked "restaurant bag". child is hungry but not ravenous. * get seated; Parent #1 consults menu & orders. * Parent #2 departs with toddler to toddle places *out*of*the*way* of the servers and other customers. If there's a fish tank, you look at it; koi pond in the parking lot, pictures on the walls; waving at people; peeking out the window, admiring the pizza oven / sushi bar / open kitchen / etc. You do this because your toddler is DRIVEN to use his/her gross motor skills. She/he will only sit for a few minutes and you want those minutes to be when your food arrives and you are all eating together. Do not plunk your kid in the high chair and then be surprised when their patience for sitting is over once the food comes. Parent #1 & Parent #2 may switch roles if the food takes awhile. * food arrives. Return to table, ensure clean hands, get the bib on, napkin on the lap, and give your chowpup something unfamiliar, but that you are reasonably sure they'll like. Ideally, this will be small pieces of food they can manage themselves. For Asian restaurants, get a starter chopstick deal like this: http://babyccinoblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/chopstick-kids.jpg or this: http://www.wildline.com/images/farmsticks.jpg * before parents are done eating, the kid will usually run out of patience with the high chair or booster seat. If you think they're still hungry, you can try having them eat in your lap, or read a story to them while they're eating, or play I Spy ("Can you find a man with glasses on?" "... someone wearing plaid?" "... a pink flower?" "... the letter M?" etc.). * If they're done eating, then you can mop up their hands and the tray/part of the table where they ate and offer them special toys that only come out in the restaurant. These toys need to be small, quiet, contained and engaging. This will only last for a short time. * Eventually, Parent #1 will need to take the toddler for a walk. Parent #2 finishes eating, then they switch. This is a lot of work. You cannot expect to go out to eat like you did without children. It's not worth it for everyone - if you don't want to do all this work, you'll have to get a sitter or skip going out for a few years. These tricks will stand you in good stead for the toddler years, and when they age out of toddlerhood you can start on restaurant tricks for bigger kids. Sun Mar 22 11:08:31 -0700 2009 3908471 42513 Mawrter 1 3908565 I have an 18 mo old that my husband and I are trying to "train" for restaurants. Here has been our strategy so far: 1. we have always allowed our daughter her leisure when eating (from day 1). you can't rush your kid at mealtime (while i realize this can be difficult in the morning, etc).. but it pays off to have a kid who enjoys a leisurely meal... the trade off is more time at a restaurant. 2. avoid taking your kid out when they are over-tired, over-stimulated or over-hungry. 3. Start with shorter meals. Right now is a difficult age for us, so we stick mostly with going out to breakfast. it is a quicker meal, food comes out sooner... and our daughter is usually at her best early in the morning. Dinner isn't impossible, but it is much more difficult (especially the closer to bed-time, etc). tired=cranky=not good at restaurants. 4. we have a strict meals eaten only at the table rule... some kids are just too busy for this, but we find even if the meal has to be shortened, it has helped her to stay put while we are at a restaurant (e.g. there is no expectation of getting down and running amok). 5. bring lots of little nibbles... we always try to order off the kids menu (if there is one)... but mostly she still eats off our plates. however, we always bring mess-free nibbles for her (cut up fruit, cheese, crackers). so that if she doesn't end up eating a whole lot of restaurant food she'll still have plenty to eat. save the messy food for at home (yogurt, items with sauces). also it can help to cut up the food in to interesting shapes, etc. I don't have the time to do this day to day, but it can help with the novelty of the whole thing when out. like other posters have said... treat it like a "special" occassion that warrants "special" behavior and privledges. 6. pre-order food... most restaurants will gladly fire your kids order early.. just ask! soemtimes this can backfire when your kid finished eating before you do, but that is one of the reasons we still favor breakfast. 7. though arguably not entirely necessary, I always try to clean up after ourselves (including the floor) and tip well... to compensate for the mess and extra napkins. 8. take a pal, we often double-date with friends with kids... the kids enjoy the social aspect of eating with other kids... (we tend to do this at dinner mostly) and you get an extra set of hands to help. 9. be prepared to leave without eating if need be... our daughter likes to be out and about and around other people... but if she isn't behaving or is fussy we leave... even at a young age, I think they get it quickly that they are rewarded more for better behavior... and lose out when they can't behave. 10. and last, totally my own personal opinion... while some quiet activities can be fine at the table (e.g. crayons)... I think it best to leave the electronics at home. (I've seen people bring a portable dvd player to dinner... lovely over-hearing "finding nemo" while you are trying to eat). anyway, IMHO, you are trying to teach children to behave in public, not just keep them occupied and distracted. nothing wrong with having to interact as a family while you are waiting for your food. Mon Jul 28 12:13:50 -0700 2008 3907895 10524 withalonge 2 3908630 Amen to #10!! Mon Jul 28 12:29:28 -0700 2008 3908565 15250 sebetti 2 3908671 "10. and last, totally my own personal opinion... while some quiet activities can be fine at the table (e.g. crayons)... I think it best to leave the electronics at home. (I've seen people bring a portable dvd player to dinner... lovely over-hearing "finding nemo" while you are trying to eat). anyway, IMHO, you are trying to teach children to behave in public, not just keep them occupied and distracted. nothing wrong with having to interact as a family while you are waiting for your food." I completely agree with this. I see too many parents relying on the gameboy as a substitute for either family conversation or educating the kids on how to politely behave and be patient in a restaurant when adults are sitting and talking. It will not kill children to not have them be constantly entertained. When they are babies I think it's a different story. But when they're old enough to know better, they should (IMO) start to learn to behave and not just tune out and play games. Mon Jul 28 12:39:20 -0700 2008 3908565 19518 rockandroller1 2 3908845 Bless you for remembering to mention to clean up! I have seen tables that look like they were tossed in a tornado after a family with kids has been there. There is often more food and garbage on the floor than on the table, I used to be really firm about mess-making, i.e., throwing things on the floor. At a certain age, it is impossible (first high chair months to about two years), but they do understand after that. Sugar packets do not belong on the floor and restaurant employees are not personal maids. When my daughter was at the messy age, I picked up and often wiped up after her. I always had baby wipes with me, and certainly did ask for extra napkins. Mon Jul 28 13:23:11 -0700 2008 3908565 87837 RGC1982 2 3909696 Withalonge, what a great list! You may want to consider writing a primer for training Chowpups. Mon Jul 28 18:11:37 -0700 2008 3908565 89969 moh 3 3911974 *blush* thanks... didn't quite think it was going to be that long when i started typing. :) I love to go out to eat... and have fond memories of fine dining as a child with my parents. I hope to enjoy the same with my kids when they are ready. Tue Jul 29 12:39:47 -0700 2008 3909696 10524 withalonge 1 3908784 Ironically, don't expose them to "family": restaraunts and fast food places (I know this is hard, maybe use the drive thru) when they are very young. These are the types of places where kids run amuck. When they see this behavior they learn that this is how you act in a restaraunt. Take them to decent places where there aren't a lot of kids running around and screaming. They will then learn that restaraunts aren't places for yelling and running around. The first time my daughter went into a McDonalds (she was about 5) she was confused. She was looking for the waitress. Mon Jul 28 13:07:16 -0700 2008 3907895 56815 pemma 2 3908863 Interesting theory. I used to bring my kid to Mickey D's for breakfast only, and playing with the balls and slides was acceptable. It didn't seem to confuse her, because MD's was strictly a place for Saturday morning playtime with her friends when it was too cold to play outside. I did chuckle when I read about your daughter waiting for the waitress! Mon Jul 28 13:27:29 -0700 2008 3908784 87837 RGC1982 1 3908830 Lots of good advice above. I'd add one thing--as the years go by, try to make the restaurant experience enjoyable for kids; they'll be much better behaved. At a year old, your child isn't much of a participant in the meal, so this isn't a real factor. For the time being, he can join you for just about anything, but be prepared for the day when he decides that he's going to express himself in ways that aren't acceptable. Hope for the best, but know that you may have to bail out if things go sideways, and do so gracefully when they do. Your fellow diners thank you. As the years go by, your son will assert himself more, and will be less willing and/or able to endure some restaurant situations. Most six year olds simply don't have the patience to sit still through a 3-hour meal, whether it's a tasting menu at a fine dining establishment or a family style dinner at a Moroccan place. A pre-teen who's used to eating at six and is famished at seven is going to have a hard time minding his manners when your party is seated at eight and the adults enjoy a round of cocktails before ordering appetizers. And a child who's decided that she isn't going to eat anything but buttered noodles this week is going to have a hard time being on best behavior at a Punjabi restaurant. Accommodating the kids' wants and needs can head off potential problems. If you're eating late, serve an afternoon snack. If the kid is fidgety, choose a restaurant where you can be in and out in an hour. If you have an impatient eater (my younger daughter's picture goes here), buffet lines and dim sum carts eliminate the "how long until the food's here?" questions. And if you're going someplace where you know your kid won't like the food or be able to tolerate the restrictions that will be imposed on his behavior, get a babysitter. This isn't to say that every meal should be planned around the kids. They need to learn to behave themselves in situations that aren't of their choosing. But positive restaurant experiences will instill a desire to eat out again soon, which in turn will provide the motivation to behave during a less-than-ideal (from the kid's perspective) meal. My daughters are now 11 and 14, but they have been eating in everything from taquerias and pho shacks to fine-dining establishments since their early elementary years. I can't count the times that complete strangers have come to our table to compliment the girls on their behavior. They love to go out to eat, and know that their ability to do so in the future is contingent on their good behavior right now. Keep the challenges manageable and the meals rewarding, and your kid will be one of those who draws compliments instead of scowls from other diners. Mon Jul 28 13:18:56 -0700 2008 3907895 58743 alanbarnes 1 3909067 I always remember my parents reminding me of others, especially in a restaurant. As in, "there are other people dining here, and you need to remain seated and quiet so you don't disturb their meals." The same went for other public places and the need for quiet when living or staying in an apartment building. I rarely hear parents say similar to their kids, but it seems that teaching children early that the world does not revolve around them would be valuable. Mon Jul 28 14:13:00 -0700 2008 3907895 15562 nc213 1 3909916 when mine were little we used to play word games at the table such as I-Spy, getting them to look at everything on the table for a few minutes then they shut their eyes and we would remove an object and they had to guess which. We would order their food and then take them to the bathroom (that took up a few minutes!). And we would try to take them to the kind of restaurant with pictures and things on the walls to keep them occupied and where it was acceptable to walk around a little and let them look. Mon Jul 28 19:41:16 -0700 2008 3907895 22559 smartie 1 3909951 My kids are now forcing me into geriatric mode, as this year my son will turn 41 and my daughter 40. But sifting through my memory (seems like they were toddlers just yesterday) "restaurant training" them just happened naturally. I think restaurants that had actual high chairs, as opposed to booster chairs, were an advantage because the high chair keeps kids captive so there is no chance to leave the table to disturb others. (That drives me nuts!) I also think taking kids to restaurants, including fine restaurants, from an early age encourages good behavior. In my experience, it's the kids whose parents wait until they're "old enough" that are usually the wild bunch. I never took anything along to entertain the kids, but if a restaurant insisted on bringing out crayons and placemats to color, I didn't object. The surprising thing was that it never gave those restaurant's any bonus points on the kids' preference list. Only the food did that. For whatever reason (and I have no idea why), both of my kids were pretty observant of others, so they would watch which fork or spoon to use, and observe how other people behaved, so that made my life really easy. And sometimes they would pull off sophisticated behaviors that made my jaw drop! When the kids were three and two, a flight was delayed couple of hours, so I took them to a restaurant. The waitress showed us to table (I was carrying the two year old), and my son gallantly pulled out my chair to seat me. The hostess was impressed, and so was I as he helped push my chair closer to the table. Then he stood there in his cute little lederhosen and peed on the carpet! <sigh> Be prepared for surprises along the way. Mon Jul 28 19:59:39 -0700 2008 3907895 112096 Caroline1 2 3910701 I think that this is a safety as well as a convenience issue for restaurants. I know that they don't want small children running around because they may run into a server with a tray, let alone annoy other diners. I was truly grateful to those restaurants that really considered the safest and best equipment. Yes, I believe that keeping children confined (especially at very young ages) is a safety issue in restaurants as well as a helper to good behavior. I alluded to "strapping her in a booster seat" in my response, above. When my daughter was little, we noticed that most restaurants offered either a high chair, or those little brown stackable "booster" seats that seemed like they would just fall over with a kid in it. Only some places had nice clean high chairs. So, we found a booster seat that had its own tray (which I could clean and sanitize) as well as straps that could be placed around the bottom of a sturdy restaurant chair. If the chairs weren't sturdy (think bentwood rattan), we just placed it in a booth or didn't eat there. The tray clamped her into place and she couldn't get up, and we could feed her on the tray. As she got a bit older, we didn't use the tray and pulled her up to the table. It was great and we never left home without it. It is nice when restaurants have real high chairs, but I suspect there are space issues and they can't have too many, and it is easier for them to use those little brown boosters. I think they might be okay to use in a booth, with the child at your side. Tue Jul 29 07:05:53 -0700 2008 3909951 87837 RGC1982 3 4527516 Right on: a cheap little booster seat that you can take anywhere is a godsend because you never know what ickiness might be on a high chair. There will be times when you do not want your toddler to have access to the full range of what's on the table - a tray is very functional then. There are times when having your little one in one of those trayless wooden restaurant high chairs so they can be right at the table with you, too. It just takes observing your child really carefully to see what they can manage then. :-) Sun Mar 22 11:23:01 -0700 2009 3910701 42513 Mawrter 1 3910268 Is it realistic to expect a two year old to sit down for 2-3 hour for a dinner? I don't think so. Personally, I knew the limits of the nephews and would take them out for a long walk so that the rest of the family could enjoy themselves, Mon Jul 28 23:28:59 -0700 2008 3907895 12471 jlawrence01 2 3911015 I'm not even interested in sitting down for a 2-3 hour dinner, who can blame a toddler if they are not. ;-) Tue Jul 29 08:41:57 -0700 2008 3910268 26725 swsidejim 1 3911257 Consistency is key to teaching proper behavior both in restaurants and at the dinner table in general. The _one_ time you break your own set of established rules, you have let the child know that those very rules you've worked so hard to establish do not apply to them. In Clan Ranger's home, if any of the girls (nieces and daughters) swatted their food or plates, threw their sippy cups or tried to form lakes and moors, clean-up was swift; they were finished eating. I don't do wear ponchos for any my Young Gallaghers. I didn't reason with any of them. I simply picked up the items with a "Looks like you're done" and the kids sat there while I finished my meal. Sure there were some learning curves involved: One niece was used to getting her way and it was a new experience this "no" thing. I don't yell (unless coaching) and have found dining out with all of them a pleasant experience. I also don't allow roaming, before, during, and after a meal. Dinner is a time to sit and talk, share, and listen; it's a gathering that rarely happens any other time during the day so spending 60 minutes together shouldn't kill anyone, even some teenangsters. Roaming in a restaurant will net nothing but trouble (and possible injury) so it's something I'm rather draconian when handling. Launching food, plates, cups, and silverware was always met with a strong, "No. Don't." I also found that my nieces didn't know about formal dining so recently we've (SWMBO and me) have taken it upon ourselves to teach them. <shrug> The girls have been amazingly attentive and receptive. Daughter-units Alpha and Beta have also been able to dine out at special occasion restaurants since they were 8 (they're teenangsters now). My two nephews, OTOH, often required a more direct, a significantly more hands-on, approach. They learned very quickly about time outs and that "no" isn't a new point for ongoing negotiations with Uncle Ranger. When I saw them becoming bored, food and platewares were removed until everyone else finished. Chirping and screaming (which they were both prone) were also handled with similar consistency. (Personally, I don't believe you can reason with anyone under five.) The one thing to remember: No child will starve. They eat until the edge is taken off their appetite. Yes, they might nosh constantly throughout the day but it's really the adults that set an amount on meals that "needs to be porked down." Let 'em eat until they stop, remove the toys, and be prepared for some cause-and-effect scenes until they understand that if they don't want to do something antisocial... (This doesn't take as long as many seem to think.) The times we dined out when Daughter-units Alpha and Beta were infants, and later Spawn, we were both fully prepared to take a daughter outside, away from the attentively craning audience; the meal for them was over. We rarely had an issue because I didn't allow them to roam if we went out. Remember to be consistent and then follow through with the cause-and-effect; if X happens, then Y follows. Tue Jul 29 09:42:16 -0700 2008 3907895 11175 The Ranger 2 3911480 Brilliant, Ranger. A set of parents with rules that the little Rangers must follow, or else there are consequences. It really is as simple as that, isn't it? It's the "consequences" part that the little ones figure out aren't going to happen unless the parents actually follow through. As you said - consistency. And the "No child will starve" is also so very true. Filling the plate with almost adult-sized portions and expecting kids to eat it all is just nuts - they will eat enough for them at that time. And little kids usually eat a lot more slowly than adults, so their stomaches signal they're full at the appropriate time, not when the children have overeaten by eating everything on their plate in record time. Tue Jul 29 10:44:19 -0700 2008 3911257 10532 LindaWhit 1 3913473 If we practice what we preach chances are good we're passing on valuable lessons about appropriate behavior. Parents who act one way (cell phone at table, loud talkers, leaving a table a horrible mess) shouldn't be surprised when their children mimic with iPods, yelling, rude manners. Practice what you preach, simply put. Tue Jul 29 20:07:59 -0700 2008 3907895 36312 HillJ 1 3919110 I have one child, so I don’t know if it’s harder with more than one or not because they can get each other riled up. She needs to be reminded about her manners when she’s with her cousins… who are older, very sweet wonderful nieces of mine, but who don’t have much opportunity to go to really nice restaurants (big difference when you have 1 vs. 3 children, moneywise). I believe it’s good to start young and not necessarily at restaurants like McDonalds or some ethnic restaurants where children are apparently allowed to act up and run around. I don’t think that’s the standard you want to set or have them see, right? It also means that the other diners need to be tolerant when they see the parents looking like they are training the child. Ever since she was an infant, we brought her to restaurants. We would bring a coloring book and crayons or some other non-noise making object to entertain her. I don’t think we did a whole lot of manner teaching at home or at the restaurant except… you had to stay in your seat, you can’t throw things on the floor and expect to get them back, and don’t make too much noise. I wasn’t big on chewing with your mouth closed, elbows off the table, etc. Since there were two of us, we could take turns keeping her engaged in conversation about things around her, talked about the food, asked about what she was coloring, asked her about her favorite things, etc. And yes, several times we had to remove her, bring her to the car, probably spanked her, and repeat. I don't remember those 4-5 year old days as much. We’ve also gone on cruises and only ate at the formal dining room, so that was extra training opportunity. I would say ever since she was about 3, I was confident in her “eating out at high class restaurant manners.” My DH had a conference at the Sheraton Palace in SF and stayed several nights, so we drove over to use the pool and decided to eat dinner there. She was about 3 ¼ at the time, and I said, “C, would you like shrimp and scallop pasta for dinner?” She replied with enthusiasm, “Mom, I LOVE shrimp and scallops!” She’s 11 now, and the only things we’re really trying to coach her on are cutting steak with a knife correctly for the proverbial interview situation and using chopsticks properly without crossing them. Thu Jul 31 12:10:49 -0700 2008 3907895 93291 boltnut55 1 3924833 Lots of sensible advice above. Exposure to lots of different items at home and away is a big deal. I find it helps if the parent is relaxed cuz the kiddles are enormously perceptive of our mood and pick up on anticipatory tension. We had some rituals depending on the formality of the restaurant. At a Denny's type of diner, there are usually crayons and a menu to color on offer. He was also allowed to have a few coffee creamers (in the little plastic cups), and it was o.k. to take the ice out of the water glass and suck on it. Cutlery was NOT to be used to tap tunes on the glassware or dishes or tabletop- so after one infraction he would have to eat with his hands. No flinging of anything or yes the low threatening word or two along with "the look". At higher end places we tried to engage the kids in checking out the cool surroundings, maybe visiting the lobster tank or strolling over to the dessert trolley. The loveliest meal out I had was when mine was 3-1/2 and his cousin was 2-1/2. I had them alone in San Francisco. We decided on ann Italian restaurant we could walk to that looked like the tables were well spaced and the crowd was low-key. After we got seated at least 2 tables took a look at one mom with 2 toddlers and no other adults, and asked to be moved. We just shrugged and proved them wrong. It was their first experience dipping bread in little plates of olive oil. They were entranced. I ordered a pasta dish with whole clams. As the meal neared a close I let them wash the clam shells neatly in their water glasses and wrap the treasures up in extra paper napkins from the server. We did gelato as dessert down the street so as not to be seated too long. The clams shells provided a hilarious amount of fantasy play in the tub that night. The patrons who quaked at the sight of us hopefully got a happy lesson in the possibility that kids did not have to equal dinner mayhem. Sat Aug 02 13:35:15 -0700 2008 3907895 17682 torty 1 3935516 Got got great advice from this thread. I plucked up the courage to book Sunday lunch, including our one year old, at a gastropub in Hay-on-Wye. Since this was Wales and not London, we were welcomed with big smiles and waitresses cooing over the baby. Baby sat in high chair and I fed him his own little meal that I had packed (he eats lunch quite early, around noon) while we looked at the menus. He was happy to look around the room (but he has an embarrassing habit of pointing at other people and babbling. He has just learned to point and it seems pointless (!) to try and teach a one year old that it is rude) and drink from his sippy cup. When our meals came he started smacking his lips, but was patient enough to wait for us to give him little bits of roast meat and veg while we ate. He wasn't really hungry, just curious. The waitresses making a bit of a fuss over him helped, he loved the attention and was in a good mood throughout. Whew! Wed Aug 06 12:52:51 -0700 2008 3907895 74453 medgirl 1 3935549 A suggestion: patronize one restaurant regularly. We did that when my two were young. It was Millie's in Richmond VA. Yes, we had sit down meals at home, but at Millie's, we were known, and that's where the children learned about restaurants. Millie's appreciated our regular patronage, and in a sense allowed, our instruction to take place. Not just about proper behavior, but who the players were. What a menu was, who did what, why. The children knew the chef, all the wait staff, the bus boys. It was like theatre to them. We always ate early, but the kids loved it, and now in their twenties (with Excellent Manners! and Great Food Sense!) they fondly remember our dinners at Millie's. Wed Aug 06 13:00:59 -0700 2008 3907895 154091 pickypicky 2 3937120 I'm a Millie's regular and there are often kids in there and I've always been impressed with the parents and the staff at taking a place that on the surface may not seem child friendly and adapt it to the situation and not at the expense of the other patrons. Thu Aug 07 05:09:10 -0700 2008 3935549 11990 Janet from Richmond 3 3939353 Janet! You made my day! I haven't eaten at Millie's for 13 years -- since a divorce and cross country move to San Diego. I've forgotten the owners' names-- Sosie and ? An Englishman? Our daughter drew a picture they used in their annual calendar. And my ex-husband's company supplied their wine. Very very happy memories. . . Thu Aug 07 16:46:19 -0700 2008 3937120 154091 pickypicky 4 3940200 Paul and Lisa Keevil (he reminds me of Sting <g>) are the owners. They are divorced but still have the business together and get along well by all indications. It's still a "must go" place in Richmond...for both dinner and brunch. Fri Aug 08 04:53:02 -0700 2008 3939353 11990 Janet from Richmond 5 3941064 Yes, Paul! I may not have met Lisa. Paul started Millie's with his lover, the chef, Sosie. Yes, very Sting he is. We lived on Church Hill and would walk to and from dinner. Next time you're there, a sip for Alex in San Diego, and her children Juliet and Augustus-- and even former husband Kip who I've forgiven for losing his wine business, The Country Vintner. (That's how Paul would remember us. Kip embezzled money and lost the wine company he had created. The CV lives on.) I am marrying a sous chef in the fall, and for years I've told him that Millie's is the perfect restaurant. We must make a trip there. . . Fri Aug 08 10:28:23 -0700 2008 3940200 154091 pickypicky 6 3941107 I will do that Alex :-) We may have brunch there tomorrow! Where was The Country Vintner located in the city? Fri Aug 08 10:37:44 -0700 2008 3941064 11990 Janet from Richmond 7 3941947 It's a wholesale company-- maybe now supplying as many as four states. It was originally located in Shockoe Bottom in an old warehouse, but I believe, the new owners moved it outside town. It was a pioneering concept when my X conceived it: a statewide company devoted to fine wine. Back in the day, beer companies were the wine wholesalers. The CV is very well-respected, and even here in CA I meet people who have heard of it. We started it together, when I was pregnant with our first child. Fri Aug 08 15:01:10 -0700 2008 3941107 154091 pickypicky