537312 Thu Jul 10 07:33:23 -0700 2008 92 33 Food Media and News 0 3855757 Interesting blog post by the San Francisco Chronicle reviewer Michael Bauer about an email he received from a Berkeley restaurant chef/owner: "Customers have begun threatening to 'Yelp' the restaurant if their ... comps were demanded with the threat that a harsh review would follow on the Yelp website if we didn't comply. ... People do follow through on their threats ..." http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=26&entry_id=28020 That email doesn't really put things in an adequate context. Did these customers make the threats as simple blackmail, or did the threats arise during a discussion regarding a complaint regarding bad food or service? Thu Jul 10 07:33:25 -0700 2008 11369 Robert Lauriston 1 3855848 On Chowhound at least, it's pretty easy to spot someone who is just posting negative nonsense about a restaurant because they have something against the place. If the place is actually good, usually other people who have been there will pipe up and defend it. I agree that the restaurants can probably stop 90% of these dopes in their tracks simply by not being intimidated and asking for a business card or some other form of ID. Thu Jul 10 08:02:09 -0700 2008 3855757 29811 Buckethead 1 3855939 I have issues if people demanded comps in order for them not to post negative review on Yelp. If they just threatened to post a negative review during a discussion without any expectation of comps, I find that okay. The prior is extortion. The latter is just a heated argument. If a person did receive a comp and decided to post about his or her experience, I would expect that the person to disclose that info. While I will post negative reviews regarding food, I generally think twice before posting something negative that happened to me specifically that's non-food related. I don't want one employee's issues/problems to reflect upon the entire establishment. I recently had an issue with a cashier not giving me the correct change on purpose (I'm pretty sure it wasn't a mistake). I dealt with the situation directly with the owner and did not post my experience on this board. As this place has two locations and is probably more of an isolated employee incident, I thought it would be unfair to the entire establishment for me to rant and rave on this board. Thu Jul 10 08:27:46 -0700 2008 3855757 10763 Miss Needle 2 3856247 Yeah, I generally don't post about one-time problems. I had a ridiculous argument at one of my favorite restaurants over a wine mixup. I posted about it on the Wine board because it was such a bizarre story, but didn't identify the restaurant as I figured the novice who made the mistake would most likely either learn fast or they'd get someone else to handle the list. http://www.chowhound.com/topics/442124#2988316 eBay recently changed its feedback policy to reduce the opportunities for abuse. Thu Jul 10 09:52:13 -0700 2008 3855939 11369 Robert Lauriston 1 3856092 One of the nice things about Yelp is that they have a ratings aggregator. You see the average rating based on all reviews expressed on a 5-star scale. So, if the restaurant is good they would likely have enough positive reviews to render one or two malicious ratings meaningless. I also like to click on a poster's name to see what else they posted on other restaurants, this tells you a lot about how seriously to take their point of view. Thu Jul 10 09:02:14 -0700 2008 3855757 130031 Shane Greenwood 2 3856618 Of course the flip side of this is the fake positive reviews posted in order to increase the aggregate rating. Often it is the owners/employees doing this, but there are "professional" services who will post positive reviews on an establishment they've never actually been to under multiple handles on multiple blogs for a fee. I was looking up restaurants on another site and noticed that almost all of the positive reviews on a particular establishment were all written in the same style (multiple exclaimation points, lots of caps etc...) by users who all joind on the same day and had only written reviews on that particular place. I stayed clear of that place during the time I was visiting the CITY i had SEARCHed. Thu Jul 10 11:21:08 -0700 2008 3856092 73013 LabRat 3 3857436 The key on sites that have that sort of rating is to scan through the reviews themselves and see who is giving what * rating. Yeah sure, it doesn't give you a nice pretty average score but you get a pretty good idea quickly of who the shills are and what the "real" average score is going to be. Thu Jul 10 14:48:36 -0700 2008 3856618 111910 jgg13 3 3858755 I wish wish wish Yelp had an "ignore this user" button, which you could click when a user is either phony (as you mention) or just has tastes you don't agree with.... Then all other review averages would not include those users, and the reviews would appear greyed out. Fri Jul 11 02:51:28 -0700 2008 3856618 65275 eeblet 3 3859043 Yes, and quite often we see those style of reviews here on CH, almost always by, you guessed it, new users making their very first post. Sometimes they're deleted, other times, only the posts calling them out as shills get deleted. C'est la vie. Fri Jul 11 06:26:23 -0700 2008 3856618 152667 Ralphie_in_Boston 4 3861815 Hiya- Just wanted to let you know, we are a very small team here in the "back room", and we don't always see everything that is posted. If you feel that a given posting is suspicious, just click on the Report link and give us a heads-up and we will take a look at it. It is never a good idea to accuse another poster on the board of being a shill, just "ping" us and let us look in to it. Fri Jul 11 22:39:24 -0700 2008 3859043 2 The Chowhound Team 5 3862341 I regularly report apparent spam posts. In most cases the posts are removed by the moderators within a couple of minutes. Sat Jul 12 08:45:12 -0700 2008 3861815 11369 Robert Lauriston 6 3866660 Agreed. I regularly report them and have the same experience, in most cases they are removed right away by the mods, who are doing a great job. Mon Jul 14 07:33:38 -0700 2008 3862341 152667 Ralphie_in_Boston 6 3933776 Ah, so THAT'S why none of my posts have been appearing! Tue Aug 05 23:49:41 -0700 2008 3862341 10245 oakjoan 5 3864194 jfood has also reported these as well and the TEAM does a great job in pulling the shills. Sun Jul 13 07:02:00 -0700 2008 3861815 11290 jfood 2 3858430 How does Yelp treat advertisers in this aggredator. I'l bet you big time they trhow out the negativer reviews. Thu Jul 10 20:58:49 -0700 2008 3856092 10264 rworange 3 3858452 I believe they generally leave up anything/everything but a review can get flagged for breach of TOS. Thu Jul 10 21:11:04 -0700 2008 3858430 111910 jgg13 4 3858811 That seems to be the case. The...um...editorial policies at Yelp are pretty lax when it comes to reviews. I know I've flagged reviews for places that have yet to open (i.e., an actual violation of the TOS), only to come back weeks later to see those reviews still up, and as near as I can recall, these weren't all businesses that I would expect to be major sources of ad revenue over at Yelp. There are aspects of how Yelp works that I find kind of lame and/or unsettling, but I do think that right now they are allowing the ratings to speak for themselves. Fri Jul 11 04:40:18 -0700 2008 3858452 86822 hohokam 5 3858856 In general I prefer the laxer moderation than the tighter policies here at CH, but I've said before that I'm more of a "live and let die" type when it comes to moderation. Plus, like I said, it isn't hard to mentally filter out the ones you don't like - I'd never go just on the aggregate rating anyways but rather would want to know how that was influenced. The bit about pre-reviewing is usually so people can pump up their "first to review" numbers, which I think is pretty silly ... I'm not a huge fan for the encouragement towards status (# of reviews, first to review, elite, etc) Fri Jul 11 05:09:00 -0700 2008 3858811 111910 jgg13 6 3858958 I've yet to see a perfect moderation scheme, but I suppose that's a topic for another board. ;-) When I attend to the reviews on Yelp, which is about 1/2 the time, I too read individual reviews and then do "meta-reviews" of the posters who provide something other than vacuous 2-line reviews. I've noticed that once the bandwagon starts rolling, it's hard to slow down. So, we end up with a lot of mediocre-to-good (but not great or excellent) places getting 4.5- to 5-star average ratings. And due to demographic differences, a lot of worthy places that might appeal to the over-35 crowd are ignored and languish in ratings obscurity. C'est la Yelp, I say. The "encouragement awards" you mention are some of the lame aspects I was referring to. I have a whole rant about how Yelp is exploiting narcissism for commercial gain, which I'm sure will someday appear in my Curmudgeon's Manifesto. ;-) Fri Jul 11 06:00:27 -0700 2008 3858856 86822 hohokam 7 3859899 Yeah, I wasn't trying to start a moderation tangent - both sites do things the way they do things ... was just saying that I tend to prefer things a bit more "wild west", but obviously I still like this site the way it is or I wouldn't be here :) On the bandwagon though, the same thing happens on both sites ... how many times do you see some poor sod get piled on by the regulars of a locale's board for daring to knock one of the board darlings? I think it is just the nature of the beast. You raise a good point about the demographic - I've got one foot in each of what I consider to be the target demographics which is probably why I like both so much ;) I've seen some Yelpers deny that they swing to a more younger/hipper (for lack of a better word)/raucous group but others embrace it saying that they don't want to know what the old fogies drinking prune juice have to say about anything. *shrug* Again, it is what it is. My personal experience is that I'm a bit too old/stodgy to really enjoy the review style that a lot of the "into it" people do but I do tend to like the sorts of places they'd review (and remember, it ain't just food!) that wouldn't really get coverage here. As for curmudgeon's manifesto ... i've been that old guy shaking his fist at "those damned kids" since I was about 15 ;) Fri Jul 11 10:21:05 -0700 2008 3858958 111910 jgg13 6 4186185 I agree--I think the Yelp reviews are pretty transparent to anyone with a bit of common sense. So much gets censored here that I'm finding I'm relying on CH less and less. Wed Nov 19 10:23:57 -0800 2008 3858856 100412 newhavener07 7 4186870 I take exception to your remark. I usually take quite a bit of time with the reviews I write on Yelp, albiet with a sense of humor. Of course I'm one of those old fogies........... Wed Nov 19 13:49:28 -0800 2008 4186185 90359 PattiCakes 1 3857424 There have been a few threads on Yelp Boston that have touched on this sort of thing. It seemed like a lot of people were semi-joking but it really left a bad taste in my mouth if they were being serious ... in these cases they weren't threatening a bad review so much as hoping to angle in on free stuff to sweeten the review: http://www.yelp.com/topic/allston-gifts-bribes-from-local-businesses#V5M2SRXFN-QcvoY_X7BH2Q to a lesser extent: http://www.yelp.com/topic/jamaica-plain-yelp-matters#5KudSmKWqEWunVycS0rMpg Thu Jul 10 14:45:45 -0700 2008 3855757 111910 jgg13 2 3857804 That's really gross—& immature, which goes to show the potential median age difference btwn. Yelp/CH that has been discussed before. So much (yet again) for the revolutionary power of the internet. Thu Jul 10 17:02:23 -0700 2008 3857424 11106 tatamagouche 1 3857874 As a business owner , my employees and myself have been threatened with being yelped , a few times ! What we do is when the threat is made, we make the complainer give us a written account of everything that went wrong and what we should do to fix the problems. In almost 99% of the cases, they walk away with a threat but no written account. Since all of the complainers who threaten yelping are in the 20-35 age grp., writing down something with a pen on paper intimidates them and they just give up. I believe every business owner wants to provide the best service , afterall he/she has money, time and reputation invested in the business. Thu Jul 10 17:25:41 -0700 2008 3855757 141107 JiyoHappy 1 3859049 This entire thread is a very good example of why I'm glad there is no star or points rating system on CH! Fri Jul 11 06:28:07 -0700 2008 3855757 152667 Ralphie_in_Boston 1 3859073 i find yelp to be a good site overall, and have known of yelpers threatened by business owners for bad reviews - as if the reviewer, and not the place is the problem. the way to not get bad reviews is to give good service. some people have a real bee in the bonnet about yelp that i find mostly unfounded Fri Jul 11 06:35:41 -0700 2008 3855757 135229 thew 2 3859920 There was a girl on Boston Yelp who came in to complain about a certain business - she claimed that she and her friends were banned from the establishment for their reviews, and had an initial groundswell of support on the talk thread. Well, something was fishy about the story ...... Turns out, they had talked in the reviews about how they stole a beer glass (this place is meticulous about matching the proper beer glassware to the beers, theft is at times an issue). So wow, golly gee, someone admits to committing a crime is confused as to why it might be that the establishment they committed said crime in doesn't want them to return? But I was surprised that after that came out that half the folks still didn't see why they were banned. Fri Jul 11 10:26:39 -0700 2008 3859073 111910 jgg13 3 3860069 It's the mentality of a lot of people these days. I attribute it to a society-wide trend towards non-responsibility for one's own actions. These are the same people who check out of a hotel room and walk off with everything in it that wasn't bolted down. Fri Jul 11 11:12:22 -0700 2008 3859920 152667 Ralphie_in_Boston 1 3859488 This in some ways reminds of me of the Hotels.com commerical seen everywhere where the guy says just because I got this from hotels.com doesn't mean I'm going to give you a good review ... and then the bellhop, shoe shine boy, pool guy, whatever does something extra. Maybe it gave the Yelpers the blackmail idea. Who knows, maybe it's the Yelpers gave some one the idea for the commerical. Either way, this thread sure reminds me of that. As for Yelp itself and this new "social media cyberbullying" or "social media blackmail". Gee, another wonderful new thing the Net has added to the human experience! An electronic Lord of the Flies mentality that permeates and reaks. Fri Jul 11 08:32:22 -0700 2008 3855757 183904 HarryK 2 3859927 I like Yelp a lot, but I think this all goes back to the "real people, real reviews" thing. I *like* being anonymous for a variety of reasons (and really it wouldn't be *too* hard to break the anonymity if someone really cared for some reason), but one is that I think that reviews should be anonymous for just this reason. An establishment can't hold negative reviews against you and they also can't pander to you. Fri Jul 11 10:28:23 -0700 2008 3859488 111910 jgg13 3 3860340 ^^That's why I don't post on yelp. Fri Jul 11 12:23:59 -0700 2008 3859927 19518 rockandroller1 4 3860463 You don't *have* to be a "real person", they just won't make you "elite". I do use my real first name and my real last initial but that's not a whole lot to go on ... I use the same pic from my CH avatar over there. Like I said, if someone really wanted they could track me down (heck, I got 10 tons of info, including addresses & phone numbers in about 45 mins about a couple based solely off of knowing her first name and a few details about the hobbies they were interested in, purely due to whim ... what can I say, I'm a loser like that) but most people wouldn't want to bother. Fri Jul 11 12:54:21 -0700 2008 3860340 111910 jgg13 1 3859955 thats pretty bad, however gauging from the amateur, and childish restaurant reviews I have read on Yelp it does not surprise me. Fri Jul 11 10:36:50 -0700 2008 3855757 26725 swsidejim 1 3860254 there's a flip side ther are some anti yelp sites out there started by business owners demanding people be held liable for giving bad reviews lie ihateyelp.com people do not understand free speech Fri Jul 11 12:04:08 -0700 2008 3855757 135229 thew 2 3860398 But doesn't free speech imply that we should also allow these business owners to express those demands? Fri Jul 11 12:37:17 -0700 2008 3860254 10076 limster 2 3860476 "free speech" as it is used in the US only applies to the government/private citizen relationship. There is no such thing to a right to free speech when you're talking about private entities. Fri Jul 11 12:58:02 -0700 2008 3860254 111910 jgg13 3 3860497 Also, false, slanderous statements are not covered under free speech. Fri Jul 11 13:05:29 -0700 2008 3860476 29811 Buckethead 4 3862179 you all know what i meant. people will get bad reviews. this is the same as that thread on the boston board, i think, where chefs complained about Chow. you can ignore bad reviews, you can try to improve based on bad reviews. but you cannot stop people from writing bad reviews, nor does it make a site bad because it has bad reviews. what good would be a site that only posted glowing reviews (that's what citysearch is for) owners can express whatever they want - that is a far cry from saying people should be liable for saying bad things about a place they didn't enjoy. if i have a bad meal in a restaurant, and i say so, that is not false slander, that is my experience Sat Jul 12 07:12:56 -0700 2008 3860497 135229 thew 5 3862199 I agree completely, the reason I mentioned false statements is because the thread is about Yelpers whose review is dependent on whether they get comped or not, regardless of their actual dining experience. I don't want to stop people from writing bad reviews, just false bad reviews. Or false good reviews, for that matter. Sat Jul 12 07:24:41 -0700 2008 3862179 29811 Buckethead 6 3862299 Slander is difficult to prove. It has to be proved that the person said something false with the intent to do harm. If you think about this, threatening to get comped is the internet version of "waiter, there's a bug in my salad" where someone puts some foreign matter intentionly to get a meal comped. Or even worse the finger in the fast food meal. A restaurant would have to prove the person brought in the bug. To prove slander for a bad review the restaurant would have to prove the person actually did like the food and trashed the place with the intent of getting free eats ... or some other intent of doing harm to the business. A bad review is just what it is. Someone hated the meal. The rest is just ego talking ... there is a sense of entitlement or self-importance. Sat Jul 12 08:23:10 -0700 2008 3862199 10264 rworange 7 3863359 Oh, I think we have gone way beyond the "self" administered bug in the salad trick: Diner: "Waiter, what's this finger doing in my chili!" Waiter: "Let me give you a hand with that, sir" Sat Jul 12 17:49:24 -0700 2008 3862299 108169 Servorg 8 3870512 Wait, shouldn't this be on the 'upselling' thread? Tue Jul 15 10:40:30 -0700 2008 3863359 16734 Lizard 7 3863669 The rest is just ego talking ... there is a sense of entitlement or self-importance. This is so completely true. I don't yelp at all but the managers routinely look to see what people are yelping about our restaurant. In one recent review ..a woman who was a regular under prior ownership had come with her husband to have a drink. They were coming from across the street where they just had dinner. In her own words she states that she KNEW we were closed but went in anyway. Long story short..she trashed the place because she was turned away from the bar because we were closed & made it seem that the bartender & manager were "rude" to them. Because they were regular customers & therefore they are entitled to walk in after closing & demand that the bar reopen just for them! She also mentioned how she was good friends w/ the owner of a local magazine in which we advertise. Puh-Leeze! Now we have this nasty negative one sided stupid review on Yelp that you know some dimwit will consider before going there. Maybe if her husband hadn't called the bartender a c**ks****r things would've turned out differently for them because he's a guy that goes out of his way to be nice to everyone.. she forgot to mention that in her "review". Most yelpers seem to have this sense of entitlement to them & that's what I hate the most. Sat Jul 12 20:29:34 -0700 2008 3862299 15755 sugarbuzz 8 3866668 That's crazy for any customer to do that..any owner of a liquor license can have it taken away for serving after hours. Mon Jul 14 07:36:09 -0700 2008 3863669 152667 Ralphie_in_Boston 8 3936238 Guess who just got a comped meal for her "troubles" !! My chef is a great guy but he got suckered into that one. Wed Aug 06 16:55:17 -0700 2008 3863669 15755 sugarbuzz 9 3936641 Would Yelp allow you to post a response to her Yelp and state what you said above as a member of the staff/witness to what happened? That would at least rebut what she said and might make others realize she was just trashing you. Wed Aug 06 19:50:39 -0700 2008 3936238 10532 LindaWhit 10 3936863 her original nasty review was taken off Yelp..I think because her "friend" at the local magazine is also a friend of the chef's & a compromise was made. This is what she posts"Having restaurant owners and sommeliers within our circle of friends, this is generally the appropriate courtesy in such situations," So..you have an elite list of friends including restaurant owners & that entitles you to treat restaurant workers like crap,call the person who won't serve you after hours a c***s****r, lie about it to make yourself look like the victim & get a free meal worth about $125. Yes..I hate yelpers Wed Aug 06 21:27:38 -0700 2008 3936641 15755 sugarbuzz 11 3937686 to demean a site of thousands of people, because a tiny % are a-holes is ridiculous. a tiny % of people here are a-holes too. and everywhere else too. i'm a yelper and a chowhound. i love both sites, for different reasons, and use them differently. Thu Aug 07 08:36:09 -0700 2008 3936863 135229 thew 11 3937712 This is what she posts"Having restaurant owners and sommeliers within our circle of friends, this is generally the appropriate courtesy in such situations," ~~~~~~~~~ Well - she just looks like a butthead to those in the know about the restaurant biz. And the response can easily be as someone said above - there's a legal liability serving to outside customers (not staff - that happens all the time) after hours, and "generally" doesn't mean "always." Thu Aug 07 08:41:04 -0700 2008 3936863 10532 LindaWhit 6 3862965 I just want unbiased reviews from honest people that have no conflict of interest (actual or perceived). Sat Jul 12 14:38:15 -0700 2008 3862199 10076 limster 7 3863151 i have to say that that is mostly what i find on yelp, at least the NYC yelp. yelp and here are my 2 most used webites these days Sat Jul 12 15:59:51 -0700 2008 3862965 135229 thew 1 3864202 The Yelpers in jfood's town are pathetic. The most recent review gives 4-stars to the worst resto (term used lightly) in town and then goes on to say why he liked it. To paraphrase, he drank so much that he puked in the bathroom and then passed out in the men's room, only to awaken the next morning sleeping next to the toilet. Yup that sounds like a 4-star place to jfood. Sun Jul 13 07:09:16 -0700 2008 3855757 11290 jfood 2 3865102 To be fair ... as I mentioned above it should always be remembered that Yelp isn't just focused on "the chow" but really everything. For someone looking for a raucous bar, that could be just the thing to make it a 4 star affair even if one wouldn't want to eat there! Sun Jul 13 14:50:19 -0700 2008 3864202 111910 jgg13 1 3876134 This "yelpers making threats" doesn't surprise me. I have looked at yelp off & on for a number of cities I've traveled to. Most of what I've read seems to be largely posturing with out much real useful (for my purposes) information. Perhaps I'm just older than most of the posters, who seem to be more interested in the atmosphere surrounding the place rather than the food itself. And the impression of self entitlement can be strong on a lot of the yelp posts. I rarely look at it any more. There are other sources, such as this, which deliver plenty of usable info without having to wade through so much silliness. Wed Jul 16 23:53:10 -0700 2008 3855757 111267 meatn3 2 3876571 I've noticed the same thing in my very limited experience in browsing posts on Yelp. Don't they also have a status thing with their usernames too--you know, how many "Friends" they have and how many reviews they've posted? That sort of thing is bad news IMO. People become obsessed with being popular and posting as many reviews as possible---becomes a big popularity contest instead of a true opinion-based message board. Thu Jul 17 06:51:21 -0700 2008 3876134 152667 Ralphie_in_Boston 3 3878219 while that may be true on the talk boards, that attitude does not spill over into the reviews. the reviews have pretty much been solidly right on in my experience Thu Jul 17 14:02:48 -0700 2008 3876571 135229 thew 4 3878342 It spills over into the reviews, but not in ways that actually would matter to anyone. You see a lot of people reviewing stupid stuff and even made up stuff as a joke/means to pump up review count/etc. But that's not the same as someone reviewing a real institution that someone might actually care to read a review Thu Jul 17 14:33:11 -0700 2008 3878219 111910 jgg13 5 3882738 It spills over in some useful ways too - Yelpers vie for the first-to-review tag on their posts, so they uncover new places with astonishing regularity. Sat Jul 19 03:18:24 -0700 2008 3878342 10702 condiment 6 3882773 Uncovering new places is a great thing. Places that can afford to hire PR or do PR on their own will have sufficient media push ensure that they are covered in all the usual media (newspapers, blogs etc...) But it's only through combing through neighbourhoods on one's own that allows people to uncover places that would otherwise never be mentioned in any media source, and that is a major value of grassroots efforts. Not specifically referring to yelp, but it's easy to read about imminent openings of places that are media savvy on various local papers, blog etc. It takes someone a bit more hungry to pound the pavement or drive to neighbourhoods in search of something new. The flip side is that often reports on places may not cover everything. It's not only important to be first, but also go deep. And by that I don't mean merely eating everything on the menu multiple times. (I'd rather not escalate the CH vs yelp etc sentiment here, so I'm using the following just as an example of going deep, not of one being superior to another.) I remember the SF chowhounds discovering that a very well trained Sichuan chef was cooking at a certain restaurant. Instead of merely stopping after eating the brilliantly executed sichuan dishes on the menu, they went further, asking if the chef would do serious high-end banquets. The result was dishes that would otherwise have never been available. I would say that personally, I prefer the people who report on places to be hungry for delicious food, not for first place, because it's easy to do a superficial first review on any website or blog. It's slightly harder to do an in-depth report (first or 100th) that goes beyond what the average person would accomplish, and that requires a serious hunger, not trophy-seeking. Sat Jul 19 04:05:41 -0700 2008 3882738 10076 limster 6 3882925 My experience has been that anything worthy of a "first to review" (read: not something silly or useless that someone puts in) is already pretty well known to be opening on the talk boards, here on ch, etc. Sat Jul 19 06:30:08 -0700 2008 3882738 111910 jgg13 4 3879809 I find the reviews on Yelp to be useless, lacking in maturity, and usable, relevent content. Fri Jul 18 05:23:15 -0700 2008 3878219 26725 swsidejim 5 3879872 i generally find here is a good place to find places i didn't know about, and yelp to then check out the details. of course i did find some great places through yelp as well (kuma inn being the last) Fri Jul 18 05:53:41 -0700 2008 3879809 135229 thew 6 3880794 That's exactly how I use these two sites, by and large. Fri Jul 18 10:39:00 -0700 2008 3879872 111910 jgg13 5 3883293 I really only spend a significant amount of time on Yelp's Boston board, so my observations are limited to that. Yelp's reviewers on average seem to be a lot younger. The raw number of participants appears larger than Chowhound's, so -- as in almost any crowd -- there's a larger number of not-so-sophisticated participants. But like Chowhound, it is possible to find posters who are adventurous, open-minded, dedicated to uncovering great chow, and good writers. Some even have some special or regional expertise that is very useful to tap. As on Chowhound, it takes some dedicated reading over a period of time to identify them, but Yelp seems to have a lot more dross to sift through. My biggest problem is the number of Yelpers who appear to think that making themselves the center of the review is a fun and cool thing to do. They end up devoting an annoyingly small proportion of their restaurant reviews and Talk board discussions to the food itself. Sat Jul 19 09:38:54 -0700 2008 3879809 10143 MC Slim JB 6 3883363 chow is a food site with a social component yelp is a more social site, mostly based around food Sat Jul 19 10:13:04 -0700 2008 3883293 135229 thew 7 3884049 On the SF Bay Yelp site, it seems to be a "scene" site with a social component. Food is a tiny part of it - the few interesting food threads are farrrr less popular than "Where the hot women at" or "why is FroYo so awesome" or "Guess where I woke up in a pool of my vomit last night". Sat Jul 19 16:40:01 -0700 2008 3883363 65275 eeblet 8 3884099 the talk threads are not the review section of the site Sat Jul 19 17:09:38 -0700 2008 3884049 135229 thew 9 3884863 I think too many people forget that point. As MC said, there's a habit among some folks (who often are also heavy users of the talk side, although by no means does that imply the other direction is often true) to do, well, what he said on reviews but by and large I don't think you can gauge the quality of the reviews from reading the talk threads. Sun Jul 20 06:26:03 -0700 2008 3884099 111910 jgg13 10 3909994 I'm well aware that the talk section is separate from the reviews, but over the last two years, it seems that the reviews have slid more and more in the direction of the talk boards: self-absorbed idle chatter that is totally un-food-related! It's the culture that Yelp is encouraging with their UFCs and eleet status. Mon Jul 28 20:18:59 -0700 2008 3884863 65275 eeblet 6 3910620 It was Boston Yelp that brought me to a single conclusion about Yelp in general—that it was populated by a bunch of immature foodies, not serious hounds. And I still don't like that the format is monologic rather than dialogic. But just in the last few weeks, really, I've begun to come around w/r/t Denver Yelp; it's so much more active, hence so much more diverse, than I remember Boston's being. My loyalties will always lie with CH and the bulk of my time spent here. But I used to always say of the Boston CH board that it was like being on a squad with hundreds of really smart, engaged chow detectives, all of us helping each other uncover clues. Here, it's Yelp that...I won't quite say fulfills that function but at least compensates somewhat for its lack of fulfillment. In short, I suppose there's a push-pull between the two sites that varies in intensity from city to city. Tue Jul 29 06:27:18 -0700 2008 3883293 11106 tatamagouche 1 3882836 The following musings are an expression of my surprise, not criticism. And, as others have mentioned I don't know the context. I enjoy participating in the discussions on Chowhound and a few others and have received good advice. However, I have to wonder whether the commentary on any sites really have any influence? Especially the unmoderated commentary on some. Do they reach a wide enought audience that posters feel they can make such demands? The death of politesse aside, I have trouble understanding how a poster to an open forum feels entitled to demand special consideration by virtue of their participation in that forum. Perhaps I am hopelessly shackled by my upbringing but nobody in our family ever really complains, especially is such an aggressive manner, in a restaurant. Asking that they correct an error or, once or twice politely asking whether they can replace a dish that really doesn't appeal. We just don't go back and, when asked, say that we tried a few dishes that we didn't love and move on to greener pastures. Sat Jul 19 05:22:02 -0700 2008 3855757 136117 vonwotan 1 3910135 I know someone that opened a food joint that is doing well and he credits Yelp with being a big influence in the success. I also have friends who use Yelp to look for new places to try out, so assuming they're not the only ones that do that I'm sure Yelp has some bearing on bringing in or deterring business, "Virtual Word Of Mouth" so to speak. That being said this isn't the first time I've heard of Yelpers doing this "I'm a Yelper!" to try and get special treatment. That's bush league and reeks of a spoiled child trying to name drop to get what they want, equivalant to walking up to a nightclub and telling the doorman "I know the owner" to avoid the line to get in. Whether it's Yelp or Chowhound (or any other site), the armchair amateur reviewers/bloggers should take the experience as it is and then write about it honestly. Mon Jul 28 21:38:36 -0700 2008 3855757 109044 Bunson 1 3910182 A restaurateur emailing Michael Bauer and then MB placing it on his blog. Not sure what to make of that. Certainly what he mentions is newsworthy, weird and disturbing but it happened twice out of how many meals? I'm not saying it's okay because it's not and I'm not defending the perps because it's wrong but the mass review/social site is a new phenomenon and that brings weirdness and new behavior. Restaurants need to roll with the times and or use common sense. They should have just refused. As mentioned, Yelp is an aggregate score and if the place is popular, things will even out. MB makes a great point about getting a business card. I'd go further and have them fill out a complain form with contact info. I think that will call most people's bluff and I'm guessing it's 98% bluff. Not only is this a very small minority 1/10th of percents. I'm also guessing it might have been students given the location (Berkeley). Call it a form of "dine and dash" or students/young people trying to sponge. It's nothing new, just a new form/shape. Mon Jul 28 22:06:17 -0700 2008 3855757 27275 ML8000 1 3930631 http://cbs5.com/wrapper_consumer/seenon/Yelp.Internet.ratings.2.787400.html Just watched this Mon Aug 04 22:48:36 -0700 2008 3855757 141107 JiyoHappy 2 3930906 Wow! Some article! So instead of Yelp becoming an unbiased site where people post reviews, it's turning into another Citysearch. A few years ago, I posted a terrible review of a hair salon on Citysearch. Generally, I don't make a stink about smaller things. But it was bad -- really bad. Worst service I've ever received in my life. As that salon was a sponsored listing, they had my review removed, which pissed me off to no end. And I wouldn't be surprised if Yelp had people on their payroll writing negative reviews of places themselves to extort money from businesses (as Citysearch hires people to click on ads). Tue Aug 05 05:44:20 -0700 2008 3930631 10763 Miss Needle 3 3930931 And *what* a surprise that Yelp removes negative postings about themselves! Tue Aug 05 06:02:47 -0700 2008 3930906 10532 LindaWhit 4 3930967 this is hardly a forum that doesn't edit opinion, here Tue Aug 05 06:25:09 -0700 2008 3930931 135229 thew 5 3934112 Indeed, much like my take on CH's moderation policy: "Their site, their rules" Wed Aug 06 06:43:32 -0700 2008 3930967 111910 jgg13 4 3931183 Honestly, I don't see any problem with this. Yelp isn't required to provide a space for its users to bitch about its site. Tue Aug 05 07:49:54 -0700 2008 3930931 10027 Chris VR 5 3931242 I'm not disagreeing - but if they open it up to all comments, why not? CH doesn't *always* delete negative posts that comment on its site. But obviously Yelp does. Tue Aug 05 08:06:57 -0700 2008 3931183 10532 LindaWhit 6 3931280 Yelp's pulling a "Robert Irvine." Tue Aug 05 08:18:18 -0700 2008 3931242 10763 Miss Needle 7 3931292 Exactly. Only the good comments are allowed. Even tho plenty of blogs and articles will have more realistic information on them. They're like an ostrich burying its head in the sand....what they can't see won't hurt them. Tue Aug 05 08:22:34 -0700 2008 3931280 10532 LindaWhit 6 3940479 not true. there have been several threads, at least oin the NY talk board complaining about yelp practices and policies, that were not taken dpwn Fri Aug 08 07:22:32 -0700 2008 3931242 135229 thew 5 3934455 Ok. In defense of Yelp, I found that this short conversation hasn't been deleted by them since yesterday: http://www.yelp.com/topic/new-york-yelp-makes-the-news?category=9 Wed Aug 06 08:26:04 -0700 2008 3931183 10763 Miss Needle 1 3937670 I had never seen this Yelp site - just checked it out and found it completely crass, self-absorbed, and immature. What a bunch of whining narcissists! Glad that the overall attitude, maturity, and level of taste seems much higher here. Thu Aug 07 08:29:59 -0700 2008 3855757 144272 Rhody Dave 1 4157482 AAAHHHH Yelp The gift that keeps on giving http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/7_on_your_side&id=6495030 Fri Nov 07 21:12:52 -0800 2008 3855757 141107 JiyoHappy 2 4161406 http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/05/dining/05yelp.html?_r=1&ref=dining&oref=slogin Mon Nov 10 07:23:27 -0800 2008 4157482 135229 thew 3 4163924 Humorous commentary here: http://www.marriedtothesea.com/111108/le-consumeriste.gif Tue Nov 11 05:04:18 -0800 2008 4161406 10143 MC Slim JB 4 4180702 I am a sometimes poster on the Philly Yelp site, and have not found it to be as bad as some have described other city's Yelp sites to be. I try to put genuine thought into my reviews, albeit with some humor, and have found others to do the same most of the time. There IS a general slant towards the younger crowd (I am in my early 60s), but I have discovered a number of places on Yelp to try that I might not have tried otherwise. Although I have been invited to join Yelp events, I don't think I would feel comfortable due to the age difference. Another downside of Yelp is the tendency some people have to churn out "reviews" as though there were some contest for the most reviews ever posted. They will review virtually anything in order to keep their numbers up, but do not put much meat into the review itself. On the other hand, I find Yelp useful because it contains reviews of places other than restaurants. As a matter of fact, I found a plumber who was recommended by another Yelpie. It sounds to me as though the way Yelp functions is different from city to city. I can't ever imagine using the threat of a negative posting on CH or Yelp (or any other board for that matter) to get better/special treatment. I have, on occassion, sent the owner of an establishment a link to a set of postings if I feel it's something that owner needs to see -- I've done it for both positive AND negative reviews, and with both CH and Yelp threads. Mon Nov 17 12:46:56 -0800 2008 4163924 90359 PattiCakes 5 4183423 "Another downside of Yelp is the tendency some people have to churn out "reviews" as though there were some contest for the most reviews ever posted." To some extent, there is. A lot of users misguidedly use the # of reviews posted as an measure of rank. Tue Nov 18 11:28:41 -0800 2008 4180702 111910 jgg13 6 4183554 but that ranking only effects the social chat side, and not the weight of the reviews themselves Tue Nov 18 12:05:29 -0800 2008 4183423 135229 thew 7 4183633 True, and while I (and I suspect most normal users of Yelp) will completely ignore the "elite" tags, those same folks tend to dominate the chat side, and they constantly chatter about ignoring people w/o 'elite' or N number of reviews. Tue Nov 18 12:25:12 -0800 2008 4183554 111910 jgg13