53669 Tue Apr 01 20:18:39 -0800 2003 24 2 Los Angeles Area 0 275865 In light of the copper river salmon posting, any place that the brain trust can recommend for Fresh (not farm) Salmon in Southern California? Tue Apr 01 20:18:39 -0800 2003 0 Willi Rossli 1 275866 I was back at the Water Grill over the weekend. They are serving Wild Alaskan King Salmon. Tue Apr 01 20:52:29 -0800 2003 275865 0 CBurns 2 276132 Last year around this time we had a long thread about Wild Pacific Salmon, I did a taste test of different wild salmon available here in Santa Monica, and Russkar explained in wonderful detail the differences between King, Chinook etc. King is the fattiest and most expensive. Just saw some for $23 bucks a pound at Santa Monica Seafood. If money is no object (and you don't have time to drive downtown where Russkar sources his for less) try some of this amazing fish. As for Farmed vs Wild....read the LA Times Article from last Dec. FISH FARMS BECOME THE FEEDLOTS OF THE SEA, (as in cattle feedlots. ) Salmon farms have damaged the environment, the farms in British Columbia are owned by Scandinavian companies who can no longer get away with their practices at home. The farms spread disease, pollution, and you are not 'saving' the ocean, because the shrimp and fish used to make salmon food is gathered from the ocean in the most destructive way. Buying wild salmon supports a reasonably sustainable fishing industry. Also look at the Monterey Aquarium Website for more info about seafood and which fish we should avoid as consumers. Fri Apr 04 18:53:12 -0800 2003 275866 0 Ciaolette 3 276154 Are you telling me that you believe objective journalism is the cornerstone for the LA Times? I wouldn't take their advice on where to eat, what car to drive, police practices in our city, the opinion of Iraq, gang shootings or expressway shortcuts. Eco-consciousness is always based on emotion, never on facts. Has any salmon consumer questioned agendas or are they so wrapped up in self-congratulatory do-gooding that they believe every pamphlet that is handed to them at the grocery store? You say things for which you have no actual knowledge: Salmon farms have damaged the environment. How? Farms are owned by Scandavian companies. Who? Farms spread disease. Such as? Pollution. Where? Shrimp and fish are destructively gathered for feed. By whom and how? Here's what I know now, thanks to the LA Times: Biggie killed Tupac. I know it's true, because I read it. Fri Apr 04 20:56:48 -0800 2003 276132 0 mahifish 4 276156 About a year ago I saw a story about Ian Anderson from the group Jethro Tull. He is a very sucessful business man and his money was made from farming fish. I think it was salmon. Fri Apr 04 22:01:48 -0800 2003 276154 0 Just Larry 4 276160 "Eco-consciousness is always based on emotion, never on facts." Um, not really. My eco-consciousness is based on my upbringing. My father is a scientist, he holds a doctorate in zoology from Cambridge University, and a 50 year career which involves ocean research. Of course eat whatever salmon you want...my chowhound point is I think the Wild King tastes the best. Sat Apr 05 00:31:54 -0800 2003 276154 0 Ciaolette 1 275870 Best fish markets at which to purchase fresh salmon are Santa Monica Seafood and Fish King (Glendale). Tue Apr 01 21:22:41 -0800 2003 275865 0 Tomko 1 275887 As "beingreen" mentioned in the copper river post, Bristol Farms has fresh Columbia River salmon from Alaska (at least they did last Monday). I tried it grilled on a cedar plank and it was delicious, far, far better (read much higher oil content and more pronounced flavor) than farm raised Atlantic salmon. Still, IMO Copper River is as far above Columbia as Columbia is above Atlantic. IMO. Wed Apr 02 12:18:50 -0800 2003 275865 0 TomSwift 2 275933 COPPER RIVER SALMON 101 is there are TWO TYPES , Sockeye and KING which is twice the price around 22- a lb. The season is around the middle of MAY and lasts 2-3 weeks , it varies. Wholesale price 11-lb. but you must buy the whole fish its sometimes available at LA FISH. Wild Salmon is normally very good year around but twice the price of farmed, but worth it. Wed Apr 02 18:56:09 -0800 2003 275887 0 russkar 3 276580 Get in touch. Michael Sat Apr 12 13:58:01 -0700 2003 275933 0 Michael 2 275952 There's a Columbia River in Alaska? Last time I looked, it was Oregon/Washington. Or is it a different Columbia River? When most people talk of Columbia River salmon, they mean Oregon/Washington. Wed Apr 02 20:33:24 -0800 2003 275887 0 Bob Libkind 3 276096 I'm no geography student, but I think you're right. I said Alaska only because the sign in the Bristol fish case said so. Fri Apr 04 12:48:17 -0800 2003 275952 0 TomSwift 1 276036 What is the aversion to "farmed" salmon? Thu Apr 03 18:56:05 -0800 2003 275865 0 mahifish 2 276040 Weaker flavor, fewer healthy Omega 3s, fed an artificial diet, fed food coloring to dye flesh pink (farmed salmon is otherwise gray), more damaging to the environment than wild salmon. It's definitely cheaper, though. Thu Apr 03 19:06:48 -0800 2003 276036 0 Xavier 3 276063 The real concern with Wild fish nowadays is pollution. You are eating whatever the fish ate. Since we seem to find it OK to use our oceans as garbage dumps, you can get Mercury poisoning or any number of other maladays. Oysters are a much bigger risk than Salmon. People have actually died from a bad oyster. Thu Apr 03 22:14:08 -0800 2003 276040 0 Just Larry 4 276068 Farmed salmon are grown in the ocean, and they're fed food that's from the ocean. (Salmon, unlike most farmed fish, can't be fattened on grain.) Thu Apr 03 23:22:14 -0800 2003 276063 0 Xavier 5 276076 What other "farmed" fish do you have knowledge of? What "farmed" fish eats grains? Oh, and why can't "farmed" salmon be fattened on grains? Fri Apr 04 02:34:44 -0800 2003 276068 0 mahifish 6 276083 Trout are farmed Fri Apr 04 09:26:13 -0800 2003 276076 0 Just Larry 6 276089 Here's a great (if technical) paper showing what virtually every species of farmed fish needs to be fed...it's an eye-opener. Read it carefully (especially the detailed charts with required nutrient sources per species) before attacking again. Link: http://www.fao.org/docrep/field/003/AB467E/AB467E02.htm Fri Apr 04 11:15:40 -0800 2003 276076 0 Xavier 7 276095 Noted, thanks. Salmon food, just like dog or cat food, comes from a variety of companies offering a variety of diet ingredient composition. And, among the farmed varieties, each species eats different diet requirements. Companies like ours choose feed very similar to the way you might choose IAMS or Purina for your pet. I still don't see how the farmed species results in an inferior product, even with broad technical knowledge of diet guidelines. How does this feed knowledge lead you to believe that farmed salmon is inferior in all aspects? Why do you believe that this diet understanding is worse (or better) than a salmons diet considerations in the wild? I'm glad this discussion is not about tuna or swordfish, people would cringe to know their diet considerations in the wild. Fri Apr 04 12:38:56 -0800 2003 276089 0 mahifish 8 276099 I'm not in the business. I just tried to learn about what fish I should be eating to improve/safeguard my health. Like a lot of people recently, I've moved to increase my protein consumption and radically reduce my intake of sugar and processed grains. But while I want to eat more protein, I want it to be healthful protein, and to me, despite the cost, that means more fish, especially high Omega-3 fish. By a huge margin, the best and cheapest source of Omega-3s are small fish like sardines, anchovies, and herring, but they're ruled out for me as I find them distasteful. Moving up the food chain, at a corresponding increase in cost, are salmon. Salmon are a good source of Omega-3's, though from my research, wild salmon seem to be significantly better than farmed. And in answer to another question you asked, salmon can't be fed grains because they're carnivorous. Omnivorous species will thrive on diets high in grain, so that's what they get when farmed, since corn and wheat are so cheap. (Re your reference to dog and cat food, it's not solely the choice of pet food company that results in different formulations; far more determining is the fact that dogs are omnivores and cats are carnivores.) Not that the diet of farmed salmon is that inspiring -- from the document linked below, a significant portion of its diet is feathermeal - ground chicken feathers. Anyway, please stop asking me how I can think these things about farmed salmon when I've given you the citations for the source material. Read the documents, and if you know they're wrong please tell me why. Most of all, if you can recommend the best place to buy high-quality fish in Los Angeles, I'm all ears. Link: http://www.fao.org/docrep/field/003/AB467E/AB467E02.htm Fri Apr 04 13:41:22 -0800 2003 276095 0 Xavier 3 276074 I only replied to this posting because I have never seen on this board the farmed vs wild debate. I enjoy the board for subjective dictation. However, I need to point out concerns for misunderstandings of farmed salmon or misinterpretations of the aquaculture industry. I have worked in the seafood industry for 20 years, wild and farmed, and I still do today. My clarifications to your post are strictly educational, not an attack of your knowledge (real or actual). 1. Weaker flavor - Untrue. Actually quite the opposite. Flavor in salmon comes from fat. The fattier the fish, the more flavor it has. It is thought that farmed salmon don't exercise as much as wild, have a higher fat profile, therefore, they would be the better choice for flavor. This rule is applicable to all species. You might notice this if you eat sashimi or sushi, chefs use the bellys of salmon and tuna for the most flavorful profile. 2. Less Omega 3's - Untrue. Never has Omega 3 consumption been measured greater or weaker in farmed or wild salmon. Fat of salmon is thought to be the best source for Omega 3's, therefore farmed would be considered the better choice. Again, I stress there is no scientific proof of this. Salmon, farmed or wild, is an excellent source of Omega 3, regardless. If you are really concerned about getting more Omega 3's in your diet, eat larger portions of salmon! 3. Artificial Diet- Untrue. Salmon diet (food) replicates everything salmon eat in the wild. Salmon, farmed or wild, get color in their meat from Cartinoids, naturally occuring pigments when they consume other fish and crustaceans. They also use wheat, krill, sardines, herring and smelt in a farmed salmons diet. Never have I heard of food coloring in salmon feed. 4. I think I answered the artificial coloring item above. 5. More environment damage- Untrue. More highly regulated that commercial fishing. Are you concerned for Rockfish in California? Commercial charters have crushed wild stocks to depletion. Until this year, they were unchecked. That is only one of nearly 2000 commercial fishing interests. Salmon farming has never had emperical or scientific evidence of "harm" to any enviroment in the perimeter of a farm. I understand everyone's concern for making thoughtful choices, but emotions sometimes cloud them. Fri Apr 04 02:27:14 -0800 2003 276040 0 mahifish 4 276088 I'm no expert, but in trying to eat better I've been reading a fair amount on the subject. There is a lot of info on the web indicating that farmed salmon is inferior to wild in most ways but cost. Here are just a few links...are they all wrong? (And can you recommend a more economical way to buy wild salmon in Los Angeles?) ____________________________________________ Artificial coloring: "European Commission...finds levels of dye in farmed salmon far exceed safety standards": http://www.savefish.com/sm0219.htm Anchorage Daily News: EU pressures Norwegian fish farmers to switch to less-toxic coloring agent (Chilean farmers won't; EU has no jurisdiction): http://www.adn.com/business/story/2551984p-2603199c.html Scottish scientists find farmed salmon infect wild fish: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2294535.stm Farmed salmon, higher levels of toxic chemicals: http://www.mindfully.org/Farm/Farmed-Salmon-PCBfeb02.htm Farmed salmon, 10x higher in PCBs: http://www.eurocbc.org/page470.html Farmed salmon, inferior taste: http://fyi.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/06/22/salmon.enn/ Farmed salmon, two to three times fewer omega-3's than wild: http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2002-10-06-oplede_x.htm USDA Nutritional Database, finfish/shellfish (via U-Mich.): http://www.ardilla.umn.edu/nutritiontools/USDA/ More on wild vs. farmed debate: http://www.ems.org/salmon/wild_vs_farmed.html Fri Apr 04 11:01:57 -0800 2003 276074 0 Xavier 5 276098 This is my last response. We don't need to have the "think before you read" discussion, but we must. Sites I visited included two recreational fishing, an abstract pilot study, Anchorage daily news (heart of commercial salmon harvesting), Op Ed page of USA Today, eco agendas and the last site has valid observations, but sites "according to some" as their references. Can I prove to you the contention that blacks are genetically inferior to whites by citing abstract studies, pro agenda diatribe and opinion editorials? I feel the First Amendment discussion brewing as well. Here is the truth about salmon feed: Salmon color is the result of pigmentation by carotenoids, such as astaxanthin. In nature, carotenoids are produced by certain microorganisms and plant life. Wild salmon obtain carotenoids from thier food chain - microscopic algae - a marine source of cartenoids. Algae is eaten by crustaceans, which in turn are eaten by small fish. Most salmon consume crustaceans or small fish. Ninety percent of the cartenoid in salmon is astaxanthin. Besides color, salmon need astaxanthin for Vitamin A, an essential nutrient in reproduction, growth and immunity. Farmed salmon do not have access to naturally occuring sources of astaxanthin, it is therefore added to their diet. Your last request about buying wild salmon? 1. Buy Fresh Salmon, wild or farmed. This is true: Fresh salmon at Ralphs is just as good as salmon at Bristol Farms or Santa Monica Seafood. 2. Save your money (you know the cost),buy farmed. 3. If you absolutely have to have wild salmon, go to Santa Monica Seafood, Bristol Farms or trek to the fish district east of downtown and visit LA Fish. Fri Apr 04 13:31:35 -0800 2003 276088 0 Mahi fish 6 276100 You are smearing (and misrepresenting) the sources without actually commenting on the data. Did you read it? And your comment on racial genetic inferiority is simply an inflammatory smokescreen. But it's useful to know that the farmed salmon at Ralph's is the same as the farmed salmon at Bristol Farms. Fri Apr 04 13:46:51 -0800 2003 276098 0 Xavier