535770 Sat Jul 05 17:03:17 -0700 2008 29 29 Not About Food 0 3841209 I know that many ethnic foods use alcohol such as sake as one of the key ingredients for food. Some cook the alcohol and let the alcohol evaporate but some are left with fresh uncooked alcohol left in their food. Although it maybe such a small amount of alcohol in your food, I was wondering if restaurants can legally serve such food with alcohol in it without discriminating against minor customers. Does anybody know what FDA has any rules regarding such practice? Sat Jul 05 17:03:18 -0700 2008 181080 pjp 1 3841221 the amounts are so miniscule as not to matter Sat Jul 05 17:07:54 -0700 2008 3841209 135229 thew 2 3845729 Right. There's probably a legal minimum -- I know some liqueur-filled chocolates can't be sold to minors, but those products usually are labeled as containing 4+ percent alcohol (and I can't imagine eating enough candy at 4 percent to get buzzed on something other than the sugar!). But most dishes where alcohol is used as a flavoring there isn't enough to make a difference. After all, vanilla extract contains a fairly high percentage of alcohol (I looked it up -- the FDA requires a minimum of 35 percent, which is 70 proof, to qualify as vanilla "extract") and is sometimes used in uncooked foods (whipped cream, for example). Mon Jul 07 12:31:47 -0700 2008 3841221 10159 Ruth Lafler 3 3855136 OMG, total flashback to Utah when I was 20 trying to buy some nice truffles for my mom. Going to school in New Orleans, I found that to be a new low, even by Salt Lake standards. Diabetes would have been a more accurate concern than me getting wasted on $20 worth of champagne truffles. Wed Jul 09 22:54:58 -0700 2008 3845729 20717 sailormouth 1 3841633 I've always thought alcohol laws were up to the states. Sat Jul 05 20:45:50 -0700 2008 3841209 55316 mpalmer6c 1 3841966 Alcohol laws are state mandated, but jfood believes the Federal government has told the states if they do not enforce a 21 yo drinking age they will not receive federal road funding. The FDA will mandate whether something can or can not be sold (among other things). In jfood town the police have now come up with an ineresting interpretation. They are arresting <21 yo for "possession" of alcohol if it is in their system (breatherlizer confirmed) even if there is no bottle or can in sight. This is not a position agreed to by any other town in CT. Jfood guesses a good lawyer will now come up wih the Coq au Vin defense. Sun Jul 06 04:46:56 -0700 2008 3841209 11290 jfood 2 3842371 Sounds like since David Letterman's stalker was packed away, the New Canaan police have a lot of time on their hands....:) Sun Jul 06 09:25:31 -0700 2008 3841966 57170 Veggo 3 3845858 I second that emotion, Veggo. I will be visiting there next week, and I know they really had it out for me when I lived there growing up. I still can't speed down Weed Street without thinking of Letterman and the fact that he and I got tickets from the same cop (many years apart). Mon Jul 07 13:03:31 -0700 2008 3842371 102895 Cheflambo 2 3845598 That seems an odd approach. Even if the test does not prove possession in the traditional sense, it certainly proves consumption, which is probably also part of the statute. Not sure how well the Coq au Vin defense would work, considering that they'd have to show the defendant consumed something like 48,271 plates of it within the previous four hours for there to be enough alcohol to show up on a breathalyzer test. Mon Jul 07 11:58:04 -0700 2008 3841966 14386 BobB 3 3845740 believe it or not the statute does not contain consumed and jfood's town is solo in this theory. An jfood assumes your 48k plates assumes a .08 type level on the breathalyzer. they are arresting the kids with 0.01 and 0.02 which is significantly less coqs. Mon Jul 07 12:35:18 -0700 2008 3845598 11290 jfood 4 3845955 Actually, my estimate of the number of plates required was based less on scientific accuracy than on its humor quotient - 48,271 plates of Coq au Vin being an inherently funnier concept than "dozens." But you knew that ;-) Mon Jul 07 13:21:26 -0700 2008 3845740 14386 BobB 5 3846189 jfood calculated 48,272 but figured you and he just rounded differently. :-)) Mon Jul 07 14:15:22 -0700 2008 3845955 11290 jfood 1 3842258 I would say most cuisines incorporate alcohol in certain dishes. Red wine in red sauce. Champagne vinaigrette. Bourbon marinated steak. Not to mention cooking wines and sherries, vanilla or almond extracts, etc. I'd venture that most restaurants have something on the dinner menu prepared with alcohol. These cooked meals have so little alcohol remaining that it is not illegal to serve underage folks in most parts of the country. I do know some restaurants that do not allow young'uns to have certain desserts, however, where the alcohol isn't cooked out and is a major part of the flavoring. Sun Jul 06 08:24:50 -0700 2008 3841209 76025 mojoeater 2 3842307 This is probably a dumb question, but do wine vinegars actually have any alcohol left in them? Sun Jul 06 08:52:04 -0700 2008 3842258 10985 MMRuth 3 3843122 No. All of the alcohol has been converted to acetic acid. Sun Jul 06 15:51:10 -0700 2008 3842307 67436 stilton 4 3843240 Thanks - I suspected there was no alcohol left, but didn't know the 'technical' term. Sun Jul 06 16:45:29 -0700 2008 3843122 10985 MMRuth 1 3845770 You may be interested in this article where they performed breathalizer tests on people after consuming foods with alcohol, including those liqueur-filled chocolates (36 of them, to be exact). Everybody clocked in at 0.0. http://health.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=148118 That said, I was once having dinner with somebody who was a former alcoholic who asked me if I wanted his flan/custard as he said it tasted too much of alcohol. Mon Jul 07 12:41:38 -0700 2008 3841209 10763 Miss Needle 2 3852998 But from what I know about alcoholics, with alcohol in food it's not the amount of alcohol they're worried about, but that the taste/perception of alcohol will trigger alcoholic cravings. Wed Jul 09 12:04:23 -0700 2008 3845770 10159 Ruth Lafler 3 3854314 Yes, you're correct. I didn't mean to imply that the former alcoholic was getting drunk from his dessert. Just meant to say that there was enough alcohol in that dish for him to stop. He hasn't with other dishes like tiramisu. With some desserts, alcohol is very noticeable. With others you may not feel a thing. When I first started drinking alcohol in my teens (when I wasn't as used to the taste of it), I got totally drunk off of a creamsicle made with ice cream because I couldn't taste the booze. Wed Jul 09 17:23:48 -0700 2008 3852998 10763 Miss Needle 4 3876064 My understanding of the risk is different, after reading a handful of scientific articles. It's not that the alcoholic will taste alcohol, because sometimes the alcohol level is below the level of taste perception, but that the body will recognize the molecule alcohol, and the addiction cycle/craving will kick in as a result from that. Wed Jul 16 22:47:53 -0700 2008 3854314 18222 maria lorraine 1 3846095 I knew I had recently read something on this topic - in New York, there's a bill to specifically allow wine/liquor in ice cream without requiring a liquor license. It does prohibit sale to anyone under 21. I know that at Ciao Bella, they label the flavors that contain alcohol. This was the first article I found on the topic -http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newyork/ny-bc-ny--wineicecream0614jun14,0,316455.story Mon Jul 07 13:52:36 -0700 2008 3841209 17827 cyberroo 2 3853663 Gov. Paterson signed it into law yesterday (as reported in today's Times). I thought they could sell it before -- I've purchased the wine sorbets at Vintage NY (and they're terrific). Wed Jul 09 14:20:04 -0700 2008 3846095 104084 LNG212 1 3855287 What about flaming desserts like Cherries Jubilee? I would think the alcohol is burned off and on occasion have ordered it and shared when children were younger. Thu Jul 10 01:35:05 -0700 2008 3841209 44946 foodseek 1 3855318 On a tour of the C.I.A. in Hyde park NY they have a special dispensation for the students to be able to drink and cook with alcohol as part of their culinary training. Must be fun to study for the practical in wine. Thu Jul 10 03:03:46 -0700 2008 3841209 28638 phantomdoc 1 3872829 Where I work, we have a couple dishes that are made with alcohol (like marsala wine or bailey's in the desserts), but the amount of alcohol in an actual serving ends up being minescule once the dish is portioned out, and we have no rules against serving it to minors. I can't imagine that anyone has ever gotten drunk off chicken marsala. Tue Jul 15 23:29:56 -0700 2008 3841209 179924 Al_Pal 1 3899983 Alcohol evaporates somewhere between 170-180°f. What is left is the flavour and depending on how long your dish has been cooking, the ability for the wine/booze to bring out the other flavours in your sauce/dish. That is also the same temp that is considered simmering. So depending on how long you simmer most if not all the alcohol will be gone. If brought to a boil, well then the alcohol is long gone. Regarding desserts, well your sponge cake will hold alcohol within the cell structure, but to a point. Too much and the cake will turn to mush and fall apart, and in most bakeries they use a concentrated forum of the liquor, which is more flavour than alcohol. If you’re to bake or make a dessert with alcohol in it, you can only place so much alcohol in the dessert. You will dilute your recipe and the final product will not have the same consistency, or even be able to stand. Baking/desserts is part science and part art and the art part may want more booze but the science part will not allow this to happen. Also, liquors are not cheap, so not to add to the food cost, some places will try to limit the amount of liquor in a dish. At Christmas I make trifle and instead of using jam, I take 1.5 liters of sherry and reduce it to the point that it is the consistency of jam. I try to take my time in reducing the sherry; I was taught that a slow reduction is better than a quick reduction. Anyway what I’m left with is about 300ml of thick sweet sherry, not unlike jam. Needless to say there is no alcohol left. But the flavour is out of this world. Fri Jul 25 01:47:56 -0700 2008 3841209 193247 Pastryrocks 2 3900324 P jfood learned something over the last years from these boards and research on the web. Like you, jfood thought all the alcohol evaporated. but it appears that is not the case and there is still a trace amount left even after cooking or flambeeing. A couple of articles got very detailed. Give it a go on google. close to all evaporated but not all. Ciao Fri Jul 25 06:54:12 -0700 2008 3899983 11290 jfood 2 3901548 << If brought to a boil, well then the alcohol is long gone.>> Sorry, Pastryrocks, this is incorrect. Jfood is correct. This is an important issue -- accuracy is important here.. Foods containing alcohol contain far more residual alcohol even after cooking than previously thought. Alcohol remains in a dish chemically, even when its taste in undetectable – a very important consideration for someone in sobriety or for those cooking for someone in sobriety. Or for those taking medication. Or children. Which means, Don't serve food made with alcohol ever to someone in sobriety. Don't serve food made with alcohol to children, within reason. The thread here on Chowhound was titled: Truth or Fiction: Does alcohol burn off in food? http://www.chowhound.com/topics/438128 Perhaps most interesting, 75% of the alcohol remains after flambe-ing. 35% of alcohol remains even after a dish has been simmered 30 minutes. USDA Table of Nutrient Retention Factors, Release 5 (2003) http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp... This is the info from the Table from USDA Showing Percent of Alcohol Retained After Cooking Preparation Method Percent of Alcohol Retained alcohol added to boiling liquid & removed from heat -- 85% Percent of Alcohol Retained alcohol flamed -- 75% Percent of Alcohol Retained no heat, stored overnight -- 70% Percent of Alcohol Retained baked, 25 minutes, alcohol not stirred into mixture -- 45% Percent of Alcohol Retained When baked/simmered, alcohol stirred into mixture: 15 minutes -- 40% Percent of Alcohol Retained 30 minutes -- 35% Percent of Alcohol Retained 1 hour -- 25% Percent of Alcohol Retained 1.5 hours -- 20% Percent of Alcohol Retained 2 hours -- 10% Percent of Alcohol Retained 2.5 hours -- 5% Percent of Alcohol Retained Fri Jul 25 12:27:42 -0700 2008 3899983 18222 maria lorraine 3 3902125 Thanks to maria lorraine for all the info and links. Very interesting subject, I was taught in cooking school a number of years ago that alcohol evaporates at somewhere around 175°f. It would appear from the links above that this is not necessarily the case. If indeed this is the case, that there is somewhat of a large percentage of alcohol remaining in the dish, then this is problematic for those who are sensitive to alcohol. I always assumed that depending on how the booze was heated up that there could be some alcohol residual. My work experience is in pastry, but I’ve been on line more than a few times. The few places that I was on line we always reduced the wine/liquor by more than half. This is done in a 6-8 inch pan with maybe 3-4 tbs. of wine/liquor that is placed into a very hot pan, which just came out of a 400-500°f oven. The reduction would start right away, the wine would bubble up and spatter all about the pan. The meat is sitting on a plate resting while the pan sauce is made. The booze is added to pick up any fond that is in the bottom of the pan. This very hot pan is place over high flame and since the wine/liquor is boiling down very, very quickly, I ‘assume’ that there would be less alcohol left over if any, than from simmering. Since simmering is about 40°f cooling than boiling, and since most restaurants that make a pan sauce with wine/liquor, stock, some flavoring, and hopefully some butter in a small pan that the meat was cooked in. Under these conditions I wonder how much alcohol is left behind, if any. In the pastry kitchen, when I worked wholesale we used many different concentrated types of liquor to flavour simple syrup, which taste just horrible on their own. If you drank a bottle of this stuff you’ll more than likely go blind (I can think of better ways to go blind!). So I would assume that based on the above links and info that with the more expensive patisserie’s, that there would be some alcohol reside in the booze flavored simple syrup that would moisten the sponge. When I worked in restaurants doing pastry I just used the booze from the bar, which is not concentrated. Now depending on the type of vanilla extract, you would often have to add more if the product was to be baked. The general consensus was that the vanilla extract would evaporate due to the alcohol when baking; now I’m unsure of this. What I am sure of is that when you taste the batter before baking there is enough vanilla flavour, but after baking the vanilla flavour is less. Please don’t say anything about Nelson Massy, been there done that, it works the same. Unsure how this would affect people who are sensitive to alcohol? However, I’ve been very fortunate to work in places that the food cost could afford the use of vanilla bean instead of vanilla extract (how do you make any type of custard without vanilla bean!?). There is no comparison between vanilla extract and vanilla bean. But there are times when vanilla extract is easier or better than vanilla bean. Here is a link to an alcohol burn off chart http://homecooking.about.com/library/archive/blalcohol12.htm I’ve yet to find a study that measured the remaining amount alcohol in a pan sauce described the way I mentioned above, but I’m looking! Fri Jul 25 15:18:58 -0700 2008 3901548 193247 Pastryrocks 4 3902310 Thanks for your response. I had to research this issue about 8 years ago, and remember seeing sources about boiling also. You'll be able to find them too, if you look long enough. Perhaps this source, cited in the other thread, can point you to some other info. By the way, it's rather easy to write the author of a study and request more info -- go to the college or university website, click on staff directory, find your person and email them. The articles I found years ago were all scientific studies. Also go to IFIC. From the Journal of the American Dietetic Association, April, 2002, by Eleese Cunningham: "The extent of loss depends on the severity of the heat application, or any other factor favoring evaporation. Cooking time had the greatest impact on alcohol retention. Flaming a dish results in much smaller losses of alcohol than cooking. Uncooked and briefly cooked dishes had the highest alcohol retention. Alcohol retention during cooking was also greatly affected by the size of the cooking vessel used. The smaller the cooking utensil the greater the amount alcohol retained. This was likely due to the smaller surface area for evaporation." Fri Jul 25 16:34:20 -0700 2008 3902125 18222 maria lorraine