53540 Tue Mar 18 20:47:57 -0800 2003 21 2 Los Angeles Area 0 275094 April WS is focused on LA. Best Wine list as follows: Patina and Valentino are Grand Award Winners: Hotel Bel Air; Water Grill; Spago; L'Orangerie and Michaels received the Best Award of Excellence. Tue Mar 18 20:47:57 -0800 2003 0 Elmo 1 275099 It's interesting that this could also serve as the highest markup winelist list in LA (with the exception that L'Orangerie is placed too low). I suppose it costs a lot to maintain an extensive list and that good sommeliers cost a lot, too. You probably get what you pay for here. Tue Mar 18 23:26:04 -0800 2003 275094 0 Griller141 2 275119 That's a bold statement. Tell us what you know of those restaurants listed cost/profit ratios on wine. Try and be specific. Wed Mar 19 13:16:19 -0800 2003 275099 0 elmo 3 275173 Michaels: It's been so long that I don't have specifics, but my notes indicate 2.5-3x wholesale l'Orangerie: Rochioli 1999 Chard $85; retail $36 (2.3x retail) Opus One 1999 Cab $310;retail $129 (klwines.com,for instance)(2.4x retail) Spago: Krug Grand Cuvee $198; retail $100 (2x retail) I'll let others speak via their posts lest I seem biased. Valentino's- "3x wholesale" http://www.chowhound.com/california/boards/losangeles7/messages/29498.html Water Grill -"3x wholesale" http://www.chowhound.com/california/boards/losangeles/messages/34810.html Do you have any specifics about great wine cellars with competent sommeliers that are bargains? Wed Mar 19 22:01:54 -0800 2003 275119 0 Griller141 4 275178 Bargins? If I want a bargin I'll cook at home and buy my wine retail. Nobody forces anybody to eat in those restaurants. More importantly your research does not prove your theory that it is a list of highest mark - ups. The mark - ups you listed a 2.3x's and 2x's mark up...well within industry standards..the rest you just guess at...and what restaurants are you comparing these too?..do these nameless restaurants invest up to 1 million in wine inventory, spend thousands of dollars building temp controlled cellers. Invest product and time training crew? And yes, a certified sommelier does not come cheap. Wed Mar 19 22:56:49 -0800 2003 275173 0 elmo 5 275180 I see the light. My 'research' does not prove that 2+ times retail (3x wholesale) is expensive. You're right. I'm wrong. Although my posts state that these markups are reasonable for what you get, I appreciate the feedback. Wed Mar 19 23:22:23 -0800 2003 275178 0 Griller141 6 275198 Who said good wine is not expensive? Buy retail, pay corkage, that's an option. As important, there is great cost associated with maintaining and financing wine list as ambitious as those listed. Your post alleged that those restaurants on WS top list practiced using the highest wine marks ups, yes or no? I was curious and asked you for specifics that would prove your allegation. Thu Mar 20 12:10:21 -0800 2003 275180 0 elmo 7 275214 My .02C on winelists is that value matters more than being able to look at a list with 1000 wines. Personally, I can usually find plenty on a list of a couple hundred. Another point, restaurants where the price of an aged wine is more than the price of the current vintage of the same wine, thus yield a much higher mark-up based on original cost. As an example, current vintage 99 cab $60 (say $30 retail, or double retail). Same wine 1994 vintage $80 (at purchase in 97 $20 retail, mark-up is actually quadruple original retail). So while a cellar costs a lot of money to start, pricing older wines above the ever-increasing current vintage prices; provides a built-in return on the inital investment. In SOME cases (depending upon the cost and availability of money) the older wines can be a sweet profit base. By the way, Peppone, has a nice list with some of the best prices on older wines to be found anywhere. PDC has a very deep list, with more value than some of the other big lists in town. L'Orangerie's has gotten very expensive. Thu Mar 20 16:14:35 -0800 2003 275198 0 john gonzales 4 275189 Les Freres Taix (I geuss it's just Taix now) on Sunset in Echo Park use to be an amazing bargin for wine. Many 2nd/3rd/4th5th growth bords at insane prices. I remember a Clerc Milon 90' for $50. They also had a great selection of Cal cab at very reasonable prices. Many of the wines were mature. Only downside was mediocre food and horrible stemware. I haven't been back in several years. Anyone know if the wine list is still within reason? The link doesn't say. Link: http://www.taixfrench.com/index1.htm Thu Mar 20 10:01:22 -0800 2003 275173 0 Grog 4 275321 Your selections for comparison are suspiciously similar to the benchmarks I use as part of my proprietary database for an accounting firm that advises the wine industry (one of the many things we follow to assess the current market is the restaurant markups on current releases). I agree that the Wine Spectator Winelist awards usually go to restaurants with the highest markups, and your assessment of the listed awardees is right on. I also agree with you that these markups are not necessarily unfair. Don't take any grief from the chronically irritated. Sat Mar 22 01:02:05 -0800 2003 275173 0 tony-k 1 275100 The WS is a relatively meaningless publication for true wine geeks and chowhounds. It's more a "lifestyle" mag than anything else. The restaurants mentioned are your typical list of "expense account" places. As for the wine awards, any list dosn't include Pacific Dining Car isn't worth a damn. Oh...and restaurants have to pay to be included on the WS lists. Jon Tue Mar 18 23:26:13 -0800 2003 275094 0 Jon Leventhal 2 275103 Restaurants are paying to be a part of the WS lists? Do tell? What do you know of the selection/submission process? From what I understand, restaurants and hotels submit lists for the WS to rate. Each establishment is rated based on the merit of the list submitted. Wed Mar 19 01:20:23 -0800 2003 275100 0 MC 3 275367 There is a $150 entry fee to submit your list. Everyone pays the same. The good lists get an award, the not so good ones don't. You can see which restaurants in a given locale have awards using the Restaurant Search page on the WS website: Home > Dining > Restaurant Awards Search Mon Mar 24 10:52:53 -0800 2003 275103 0 Paul H 2 275108 The Pacific Dining Car was awarded the Award of Excellence. They paid the same list submission fee, no more, no less, as the Grand and Best of Excellence winners. There goes the WS conspiracy theory. Wed Mar 19 09:33:18 -0800 2003 275100 0 Suvorov 3 275117 I can't find it on the website or in the most recent issue. Help me out here. Jon Wed Mar 19 12:19:27 -0800 2003 275108 0 Jon Leventhal 2 275131 A few years ago we went to Tan Dinh in Paris based on a Wine Spectator rec. "fine wine" "fine Vietnamese food" We weren't allowed to order from the *mimeographed* creased, stained and ancient wine list. The latest vintage listed was 1982. They just kept saying no. We were then bullied into buying the worst white wine I have ever tasted. It was served straight from a *freezer* and placed in a bucket of ice. It was from their "special vineyard." This wine made $3 swill from TJs look like a fine Sancerre. We were then treated to an indifferent meal from an English menu. "There was no French menu." I can't imagine how or why they got an award, if the restaurant had since declined or fallen on hard times, or how it remains on that list. But don't trust the list... Wed Mar 19 14:28:52 -0800 2003 275100 0 JudiAU 3 275144 Wine Spectator does not have a "fine wine" award. They have three awards. Grand; Best of Excellence; Excellence. Wed Mar 19 17:31:00 -0800 2003 275131 0 viktor 4 275154 I didn't mean to imply that "fine wine" was their award. In fact, they had and still have a "grand wine" award...but they serve swill. Wed Mar 19 19:13:12 -0800 2003 275144 0 JudiAU 5 275170 What were you trying to imply with your comment? It seems you have a service problem. The wine list at Tan Dinh is one of best Paris has to offer. Wed Mar 19 20:33:39 -0800 2003 275154 0 viktor 6 275206 Have to agree with Viktor here. The list at Tan Dinh is nice, perhaps you saw a different list than I. It has quite a few nice bordeauxs, with the strong suit being the Pomerols. It is not incredibly long, but has plenty of very nice wines on it. I will agree that most of them, while being of fair price, are toward the aged, high end. I really liked the restaurant. The food was not fantastic, but I thought it was very good; and obviously a nice change for the city. FWIW, we had great service and had a nice time chatting with both the elder (I think founder) of the restaurant; and his son who apparently runs it now. Thu Mar 20 14:13:32 -0800 2003 275170 0 john gonzales 1 275105 You can't compare Valentino's wine list to Patina's(no offence to Patina) but the're not even close. Let's see if a 200 thousand dollar list even comes close to the Valentino list of multi millions(3-5) (I've been in the Cellar several times and it's unbelievable, if not the best in the USA for a Restaurant) I believe that BELAGIO spends at least 45 million on Wine per year but it's not the same, we're talking aged fine wines not Young Generic stuff, Valentinos get's my vote for Best of the Best. Wed Mar 19 02:07:41 -0800 2003 275094 0 russkar 1 275116 As a former wine buyer for a restaurant here in Los Angeles, I can tell you that when a restaurant submits their wine list to WS, they are also required by WS to submit $150. Wed Mar 19 12:05:03 -0800 2003 275094 0 MissWendy