530835 Thu Jun 19 21:25:13 -0700 2008 61 49 France 0 3796424 After 3 days of searching here, it appears that every request for inexpensive food in Paris is met with responses about restaurants in the $50+ (30 Euros) per person range. Is that because there is no way to eat in Paris for less, or because the view of inexpensive on this particular part of Chowhound is so expensive? In my book, inexpensive is around $8-$10 a person for breakfast, $10-$15 a person for lunch and $20-$30 a person for dinner. Anything above that is mid-range, and once you're getting into the 30 Euros per person range, you are getting up toward expensive. I remember that the last time I was in Paris, it seemed to me that the only way to eat reasonably while there was to go to the bars for coffee and croissants or pastries for breakfast, bakeries and sandwich shops, and perhaps neighborhood eateries of which I did not know, for lunch or dinner, and to make heavy use of crepe stands/Tunisian Sandwich stands, as well. Is that about right, or are there truly inexpensive and good places to eat in Paris? Thu Jun 19 21:25:17 -0700 2008 72814 Hoc 1 3796572 i'm on a limited budget (and am paid in usd, no less) and i still manage to eat extremely well for not much money. there are plenty of good places with 20 euro prix fixe menus for dinner or a la carte options for less - in the past few weeks i've eaten at autour d'un verre (a wine based resto with an 18 euro menu), l'encrier (3 courses, 19 euro), cafe des musees (3 courses, i think it's 22), breizh (where a crepe will run 4 - 15 euro)... a lot of these are listed in other threads (I think you may be having a problem with your search function since in another thread you mentioned not finding any inexpensive paris threads for the past several years, but there have been 5 or 6 this year alone) Thu Jun 19 23:11:09 -0700 2008 3796424 33727 patz 1 3796590 You need to remember that expensive in Paris is €300 ($450) a head for dinner so €30+ a head is pretty inexpensive in comparison. Your strategy of a bar for breakfast with a coffee and croissant is good (and is what I do), I would try and eat lunch around the business districts (or main local shopping areas) as you will find a lot of the restaurants will do lunch menus that are priced to line up with the luncheon vouchers issued by companies (I believe legally French companies either need to have a on-site restaurant or give workers vouchers). The vouchers were valued at €7 so set three course lunches are often around €14 or €21. If you are around a tourist area you will pay more, as you do in any city. I think dinner at €30+ is very good value, especially for the standard of cooking and ingredients you get. Maybe that is because I am a European and so am used to a different cost of living - you should be thankful you don't need to pay for petrol over here - nearly $12 a gallon. It is also good to remember that the board is about finding good food, not just cheap food. So when we are recomending inexpensive food there is always an underpinning of quality. I would guess there is a economic price point were the rents/labour costs in Paris mean you can't do good/quality meals for less than a certain amount (apart from fast food like crepes/falafal). Also remember the prices are inclusive of service so you shouldn't need to tip on top of the bill, a Euro or two as a token of appreciation is all that is expected (although an American accent can alter this). Thu Jun 19 23:28:33 -0700 2008 3796424 64584 PhilD 2 3796620 "I think dinner at €30+ is very good value, especially for the standard of cooking and ingredients you get." But good and inexpensive does not mean good value and expensive. So, at €30+ each, it had better be an awfully good meal, because you can get spectacular meals over here at that price. And, even if it is spectacular, it's just good value, not inexpensive. "you should be thankful you don't need to pay for petrol over here - nearly $12 a gallon." Yet. It's $5 a gallon here, and I just paid $85 to fill my tank today, which I have to do once a week just to commute to work and back (no decent public transport where I live). "It is also good to remember that the board is about finding good food, not just cheap food." Actually, the board is about finding good food cheap. I remember that from when I originally found it. At least, when I first came here a few years ago, the mission of the board distinguished between a Chowhound and a Foodie. A Foodie is about trendiness, while a Chowhound finds the best hole-in-the-wall restaurants, that, while not trendy, are inexpensive and have great food. The mission might have changed over the past few years, but I don't think so. The one other thing is that, when someone requests advice on inexpensive restaurants, the responses should give advice on inexpensive restaurants that have good food, not on expensive restaurants just because they have good food. Fri Jun 20 00:15:20 -0700 2008 3796590 72814 Hoc 3 3796754 Hoc - "inexpensive" is a relative term. Around €30 in Paris is quite inexpensive if you are getting a well cooked meal in one of the good bistro's like Chez L'ami Jean, Le Regalade, or Les Coccottes. You need to remember mid range in Paris is in the €60/70pp range (and these are prices without wine), and the top is €200 to €300pp. Patz has listed some of the very good places were you can get good food at a lower price, Cafe des Musees has a inexpensive dinner and even lower priced lunch, although there ALC is higher. The wine bars like Autour d'un Verre, Les Pappilles, or Cave de l'Os a Moelle are also inexpensive. At lunchtime it is perfectly easy to find good food that is inexpensive especially if you head for the salads in the popular cafe's. I am not sure where you got the "...Actually, the board is about finding good food cheap" idea from. Yes it is all about good food, but the cost of it is inmaterial. I understood the board to be simply about finding good food, and looking for the best food. It can be inexpensive food, or it can be top of the range, eye wateringly expensive, Michelin starred food....as long as it is good (and no expensive does not always mean good or better). Check the Manifesto to see why I say that. I used the petrol price to simply try an illustrate the relative costs of things in Europe compared to the US. My car cost about €125 ($190) to fill so £30 for a good meal is inexpensive.. Fri Jun 20 04:51:32 -0700 2008 3796620 64584 PhilD 3 4194206 $5/gallon?? where do you live? Sat Nov 22 10:56:07 -0800 2008 3796620 242456 brooklyndan 4 4195335 He's got a big tank. Sun Nov 23 00:44:39 -0800 2008 4194206 96547 souphie 1 3796627 I am American and recently returned from a trip to France. What I tried to keep reminding myself is that the price of things wasnt inordinantly expensive. Its just that the dollar is so weak. If our dollar was not so weak 30 Euro wouldnt seem materially more expensive that in some of our larger cities here in the states. You cant really expect them to lower their prices because the US dollar is weak. 30 Euro is not mid-range. IMO I think it will be hard for you to eat in the $8 - $10 range. Perhaps 8 - 10 Euro.....but not dollars. I did not encounter any place with prices like that although they MAY exist. Fri Jun 20 00:35:09 -0700 2008 3796424 160304 Brunella 2 3796634 The dollar/Euro ratio is not that much different from when I was there in 2004. Then, it was about $1.49 to the Euro. Now, it's about $1.55. So, on a 30-Euro meal, that's only about $1.80 difference. So, the weak dollar really doesn't have much to do with it. Fri Jun 20 00:51:20 -0700 2008 3796627 72814 Hoc 3 3796651 actually, right now the dollar/euro ratio is close to the highest it's ever been. when we were in paris in sept 2004, it was close to $1.25 to 1 euro. it was close to $1.30 to 1 euro when we were there 2 years later. see the following link: http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/data/EXUSEU.txt Fri Jun 20 01:39:20 -0700 2008 3796634 155914 beantowntitletown 4 4195066 No point making the conversion. It is what it is, regardless of conversion. I just compare on par, always. Sat Nov 22 19:10:40 -0800 2008 3796651 162977 sarah galvin 2 3796639 " If our dollar was not so weak 30 Euro wouldnt seem materially more expensive that in some of our larger cities here in the states." I don't think that many people, even in big cities in the U.S. consider a $45 per person lunch to be cheap. I have paid $200 a head for some very nice dinners in the U.S., and I know that there are places that charge more. But they are not cheap, and there are cheap but amazing options. Even New York City (one of the more expensive cities) has Gray's Papaya, where you get 2 hot dogs and a drink for $2.50, or some spectacular pizza or deli spots or ethnic restaurants where you can get a nice lunch for about $15. In fact, go into Katz's and share a pastrami sandwich and pickles, and you have one of the all-time great food experiences with amazing quality, and will leave unable to eat dinner, all at about $9 per person. So, most places where there is expensive food still have some amazing, inexpensive dining experiences. Even London -- one of the world meccas of high priced food -- has some great Pakistani or Indian restaurants with 15-pound dinners that are very nice. Fri Jun 20 01:00:42 -0700 2008 3796627 72814 Hoc 1 3796729 Remember that the cost of living in the US is AMAZINGLY cheap compared to most of Europe - not just in terms of eating out, but in terms of rents/property prices, shopping in supermarkets and everything. Paris is more expensive than the rest of France, and so things here aren't cheap. And they're getting more expensive very quickly, too, with the cost of basics increasing so much. I'm British and the idea of being able to get a dinner for $20-30 (£10-15, €12-18) is pretty miraculous if you want to get more than one course and something to drink. A sandwich and a coffee to takeaway in the UK will come to about £6/$12! Fri Jun 20 04:21:16 -0700 2008 3796424 150920 chochotte 2 3796767 Oh and remember that you don't need to tip in French restaurants. So when your bill arrives for €30 that's it. No additional 15-20%. Another little tip: don't get café crèmes (a white coffee) or a cup of tea in any café you take a break in. A 'café' or a noisette - both espresso-sized coffees - will cost you between €1-€2.50 depending on neighbourhood, whereas a café crème or a tea will cost something nearer €4! Fri Jun 20 05:01:11 -0700 2008 3796729 150920 chochotte 2 3802422 Not terribly on-topic, but FWIW: as an American who's lived in Europe since before the Euro, and has returned regularly to visit, I'll just say that this is no longer true WRT grocery store prices: last month in Atlanta grocery store prices were more expensive than what I pay here in Amsterdam (not an especially cheap European city). Sun Jun 22 11:14:11 -0700 2008 3796729 25410 markemorse 1 3796740 There is plenty of good, affordable food in Paris. This little corner of Chowhound is waaaay more "foodie" than the rest -- that's one aspect of it. You don't see a lot of discussions about the best kebab here, alas, unlike the endless taco discussions on the SF board. The other is that Euro-denominated countries just suck for you Americans right now. You could get a nice lunch (entrée+plat or plat+dessert, sometimes a glass of wine) for 10-ish € back a few years ago and you can now. Back then that would have translated into $12, now it's $16. That change means that what used to be at the bottom of your price ranges is now at the top -- and things towards the top are hors du budget. And then there's the fact that we're talking Paris here, and it *is* and expensive city. It's a bit like NYC that way -- if you stick to mid-town, your funeral if you're not rolling in it. But if you branch out to Harlem and Brooklyn you can find real gems. Same goes for the quartiers populaires and the banlieus. Much to my horror one of my favorite places in my neighborhood was just mentioned here in another thread, which has a great lunch special for 9 or 10 € or so -- I never remember, just that it's a ticket restau plus a bit. Ask specific questions if you want better answers. As for your approach, you get off to the right start. Breakfast for me usually means yoghurt and coffee at home, but if you're going out, a croissant a noisette sounds good. For lunch, either seek out interesting lunch specials or hit up the markets. You never have to go too far to find one -- the little map-booklets by arrondissement usually list them. Of course you won't be buying a horse roast or dried beans or a pumpkin, but there are always seasonal fruits and veggies, fresh breads, cheese, wine, pâté, charcuterie, etc. Go for lighter/less fancy meals for dinner, because things are more expensive then. That said, you ought to be able to find a great tagine, a bottle of acceptable wine, and really good desert in your price range. There's no reason to suffer a grec-frites or a crummy crepe. Fri Jun 20 04:34:44 -0700 2008 3796424 177724 tmso 1 3797880 "Is that because there is no way to eat in Paris for less, or because the view of inexpensive on this particular part of Chowhound is so expensive?" So, it seems like it's a little of both. It apparently is very difficult to eat in Paris for less, and this particular part of Chowhound is a bit more "foodie" than "Chowhound." Generally, when in Europe, I always make lunch my big meal, not in particular to save money, but because that is usually how the Europeans do it, and I like having my big meal in the middle of the day, when I still have time to walk it off. I have arranged it with my hotel that I will have a mini-fridge and a coffee maker in my room, so that I can shop at some of the open markets and make my own for a couple of meals. My guess is that I will do coffee and croissants for breakfast a lot, and maybe some yogurt. One or two big lunches, and then a couple of lunches from the markets, and then mostly light dinners or no dinners. Fri Jun 20 10:55:01 -0700 2008 3796424 72814 Hoc 2 3798282 if you plan on making lunch your main meal, it's very easy to eat for under 15 or 20 euro pp. people here do it everyday. i think part of the problem is that it's not very clear (to me at least) what exactly you are looking for and how much you want to spend - clarifying that would lead to a more fruitful discussion than just saying things are expensive. renting an apartment instead of a hotel is also a good option for travelers (that way you can have breakfast at the apt, do shopping at the market; etc) Fri Jun 20 12:33:57 -0700 2008 3797880 33727 patz 3 3798498 Yes, lunch for about €12 is a good budget price to be aiming for. Most cafés/bistros will do a good lunch 'formule' for that: plat du jour, 1 other course (entrée ou dessert) and café/verre de vin, something along those lines, for around €12. In the evening this sort of thing is much more expensive so eating more at lunch is definitely a good plan. Fri Jun 20 13:29:52 -0700 2008 3798282 150920 chochotte 3 3798641 " i think part of the problem is that it's not very clear (to me at least) what exactly you are looking for and how much you want to spend - clarifying that would lead to a more fruitful discussion than just saying things are expensive." Good food of any kind at €6 to €8 for breakfast, €10-€15 for lunch, and €18-€22 for dinner. Fri Jun 20 14:07:58 -0700 2008 3798282 72814 Hoc 4 3798722 You'll be able to get breakfast nearly on-budget: a breakfast 'formule' of a croissant, coffee and orange juice will cost about €5/$10. But you can of course buy pastries and bring them back to your hotel room and make your own coffee and that'll only cost you about €1 per person! Fri Jun 20 14:35:29 -0700 2008 3798641 150920 chochotte 5 3798842 Also, I remember that some of the bars and coffee places were OK with you bringing in your own pastries, as long as you bought at least one croissant or pastry plus some coffee from them. That gives you the benefit of the sidewalk cafe/people watching without overspending on it. Fri Jun 20 15:14:21 -0700 2008 3798722 72814 Hoc 6 3802402 I wouldn't recomend bringing your own food into any cafe/bar in Paris. OK you may have found some places that let you but I am pretty certain 99% will not let you. Sun Jun 22 11:02:02 -0700 2008 3798842 64584 PhilD 7 3802619 It's pretty common to take a pastry to a café and order a coffee, then eat the pastry there. In fact, I even know people who do this with takeaway sandwiches. It's more acceptable in cafés that don't serve food OR at times of day when they're not serving food. But then you won't usually be able to take a table for a drink alone while food is being served anyway, if they have limited serving times: they'd rather keep the tables for people wanting to eat. Sun Jun 22 12:46:36 -0700 2008 3802402 150920 chochotte 8 3803989 I will bow to your experience. But I must say that in my years of living and working in Paris I never saw this happen. I am pretty certain that most of the cafes I went to did have food avaliable, even if it was simply a basket of croissants on the bar, so maybe I didn't go to ones were this happened. Mon Jun 23 00:59:01 -0700 2008 3802619 64584 PhilD 5 3901707 I am a huge proponent of this idea -- and if your hotel room has a minibar, you need never eat breakfast out. I always travel with Grape Nuts or granola, and I buy yogurt and milk and fruit sometimes cheese at local shops. If my hotel room comes with breakfast, I have as big a breakfast as I ever eat at home, and even if it doesn't, I can stretch a continental breakfast into breakfast and a snack (by saving the rolls/pastries for a snack later on.) As far as the "30 Euro is cheap for lunch" debate, the issue is what you expect for your 30 Euro, which is now the equivalent of about $45. When I was in Paris last week, we paid 72 Euros for steak frites, salad, one dessert, and a carafe of red wine for two people. That's more than 30 Euro each, but it was worth it. Fri Jul 25 13:15:23 -0700 2008 3798722 83766 brendastarlet 6 3950284 In my experience, minibars in hotel rooms can be ( and probably is) a lot more expensive than going out for a snack. Tue Aug 12 09:49:56 -0700 2008 3901707 11828 Maximilien 4 3825674 Apartment rental definitely the way to go - if too late for Hoc, then for others. Croissants from best patisseries for breakfast. Lunch out - I have a list of 20 starred by Lebey Guide restaurants, and 68 not starred that have a two course lunch for under 20 euros. A few even include a glass of wine and coffee. For supper eat ethnic, or one dish, or delicious cheeses, or your own market buys at home and wander the streets or stay at home and recover with a great book (too depressing to spend an evening in a hotel but not in an apartment). Mon Jun 30 05:37:28 -0700 2008 3798641 27147 Fuffy 5 3827615 My room at the Hotel Napoleon cost me $500 for the week -- roughly 47 Euros a day. My guess is that an apartment rental near the Arc de Triomphe would have been much higher. That list sounds interesting -- any way to post it here? Meanwhile, I've already decided on doing a couple of evening picnics -- one at Luxembourg Gardens and one along the Seine. Perhaps a nice lunch or two, and mostly croissants, pastries, yogurt and coffee for breakfast, which is pretty close to what I eat at home, anyway. Maybe skip lunch or dinner on a day or two and plan on filling up on crepes and other things off the street stands, at least one Croque Monsieur from a bakery for lunch one day, all of which is certainly right up there with my everyday fare, anyway. We rarely eat three meals a day, even on vacation, so this should be interesting. I think we're going to the Bastille Market for lunch one day and will probably get some veggies/cheeses/charcuterie from the stalls, and bring them to the room for some al fresco dining over the week. Anyone have a recommendation on a quality wine store? Mon Jun 30 14:50:41 -0700 2008 3825674 72814 Hoc 6 3828048 Interesting discussion on what "expensive" and "moderate" mean in Paris, and how to order coffee. But I'll bet you'd just as soon hear about specific restaurants that have good food and are within your price limits. Alas, I haven't been to Paris for 5 years, so all my tips are out of date. But it wasn't all that hard, back then, to find a nice dinner for small amounts of money. It takes research, but it can be done! Sure, it's not to-die-for ultimate-gourmet food, but there are good, inexpensive places to be found. But most are in out-of-the-way non-tourist areas, so travel time can be a issue. For great tips, look for a copy of "Le Guide du Routard - Paris Restos & Bistros" - it was a good resource for inexpensive meals when I was last there. I also had good luck with Le Petit Fute - though I'm not sure if the restaurant guide is still as good. They have a web site with Paris addresses: http://www.petitfute.com/tourisme_en_france2/paris/paris/index.php Not everything listed there is cheap, but I saw an entry for a place that has a 17 € menu at dinner (Le Petit Bougnat in the 17th arr.). Caution: I've never been there, so I can't vouch for the quality of the food. http://www.petitfute.com/tourisme_en_france2/paris/paris/paris-17/le-petit-bougnat-etablissement_DP075_1745_2479.html And check out this 2005 article from L'Express article on the best bistros with meals under 30 €. It's possible that - even three years later - some are still good and still inexpensive. http://www.lexpress.fr/styles/saveurs/restaurant/paris_486886.html Bonne chance! Anne Mon Jun 30 17:33:55 -0700 2008 3827615 12541 AnneInMpls 6 3828777 Remember the Bastille market is only held on Thursday and Sunday mornings. Here is a good link for market tims and days: http://www.v1.paris.fr/EN/Living/markets/markets.asp Mon Jun 30 22:55:58 -0700 2008 3827615 64584 PhilD 6 3828843 Gosh that is cheap (though I myself would prefer the upper Marais or other districts to Arc de Triomphe). But I think an apartment is infinitely nicer for lounging between excursions, and good for shopping and eating - I prefer patisserie from best places to practically all restaurant deserts. You don't need to read french to use the Lebey guide as "formules" 2 dishes and "menus" 3 are clearly signalled at the end of the write ups. Here are a few Lebey starred places with under 20 euro lunches during the week. Arrive before one to get in: Le Dome du Marais, Le Pre Verre, Bistrot Paul Bert, La Gazzetta (14e I think and near Aligre market) Avant Gout, Au Bascou, Repair de La Cartouche, Cafe Panique, Afaria, Beurre Noisette, L'os a Moelle, Stephan Martin, La Boulangerie. I haven't been to all of them so check prices. Also Mon Vielle Ami has a lunch plat de jour for about 15 every day they are open. We had their (Sunday?) braised lamb the other week and it was copious and delicious. We couldn't eat more but Berthillon ice creams and a good patisserie are nearby for those than can. I, too, would like some wine shop recommendations. I seem to remember that there was an enthusiastic recommendation for a wine shop in the Marais a few years ago. Tue Jul 01 00:43:38 -0700 2008 3827615 27147 Fuffy 7 3828873 i don't know if this is the wine shop in the Marais you heard about, but there's one in the upper marais that I really like - Julien Caviste, 50 rue Charlot in the 3rd. The owner is really friendly and helpful and carries a great selection of wines (I've also heard him speak english). the only catch is trying to show up when he's open - he closes for several hours in the afternoons (12 - around 3), and sometimes the store will be closed during their normal hours. Hoc, if you're going to the market at the Bastille, there are a lot of wine producers and sellers (they're only there on sunday, not thursday) - in my experience, most of them are really friendly and sell great wine for a good price. Tue Jul 01 01:58:23 -0700 2008 3828843 33727 patz 8 3829532 Thank you so much. I'll try him. Tue Jul 01 08:21:21 -0700 2008 3828873 27147 Fuffy 9 3901715 Try Le Dernier Goutte in the 6th, a block or so in from Boulevard St. Germain -- 6 Bourbon Le Chateau (look for the bright yellow walls.)The owner, Juan Sanchez, is a Cuban-American, and most of his wines are 25 Euro or less (he does not believe you need to spend more than 20 for a good wine.) Fri Jul 25 13:18:10 -0700 2008 3829532 83766 brendastarlet 8 3837859 Thanks. We will arrive from London on the afternoon of July 19, so my plan was to go to the market the next morning. So, perhaps we'll pick up some nice wine there, too. Thu Jul 03 19:20:13 -0700 2008 3828873 72814 Hoc 9 3838328 Leave a message on my blog if you'd like to get in touch. Fri Jul 04 00:42:05 -0700 2008 3837859 96547 souphie 8 3901697 We got a really nice Brouilly Beaujlais there. Also some nice olives and marinated peppers. Chicken smelled really good, and we wanted to eat it, but there appeared to be no tables anywhere nearby. Fri Jul 25 13:12:20 -0700 2008 3828873 72814 Hoc 7 3837867 Thanks. My French is not great, but I'm pretty good with Spanish, so reading French is not impossible (both languages have latin roots, so many of the words are similar on paper). I do remember the time at a bistro in Vincennes (where nobody spoke any English) when I thought I had ordered Scallops crusted and seared with Foie Gras and served with a Caramel sauce, and instead got Seared Scallops OF Fois Gras and Caramel Sauce. Thu Jul 03 19:24:22 -0700 2008 3828843 72814 Hoc 5 3893921 can you post or email your list? thanks Wed Jul 23 07:39:57 -0700 2008 3825674 184149 Lisamay 3 3798649 "renting an apartment instead of a hotel is also a good option for travelers (that way you can have breakfast at the apt, do shopping at the market; etc)" We are at the Hotel Napoleon, near the Arc de Triomphe. No kitchen, But I have arranged with the concierge to clean out the minibar, so we can use the refrigerator, and to have a tray for making hot water and coffee in the room. So, that will take care of a lot of breakfasts, snacks and some sandwiches. Fri Jun 20 14:10:28 -0700 2008 3798282 72814 Hoc 4 3799522 If I were you, I would spend more on lunch than on dinner, and for dinner I would eat cheese, bread and wine. Even high-end cheese isn't all that expensive. You'll get more for your money in most restos at lunch than at dinner. As for eating ethnic, go to the 10th or the 11th, for starters. Even then, I think you'll have trouble at dinner. The Katz's of the world (personally, I much prefer Lahore or Nicky's Vietnamese sandwich shop, but the idea is the same) do not serve three course meals. The only thought I have along those lines is a Libyan takeout shop near Park Monceau that serves quite good sandwiches, including chicken liver, for five euros. Oh, and Kunitoraya on 47, Rue St. Anne, which serves damn good udon for, relatively, not a lot of money. Even there, though, lunch is a better deal and the duck curry udon is maybe 14 euro. (And worth every penny, I might add.) Fri Jun 20 20:23:49 -0700 2008 3798649 39012 zizouz 2 3802385 "Is that because there is no way to eat in Paris for less, or because the view of inexpensive on this particular part of Chowhound is so expensive?" Not certain I agree with the replies to this question. Yes, you can eat for less in Paris, but the problem is about finding good food for less. There are quite a lot of cheap/inexpensive restaurants in Paris but as you drop down the price scale the quality drops off very quickly. There are exceptions (like the ones Patz mentions) but you have to be quite careful because Paris has its fair share of poor restaurants. Is the French board more foodie than elsewhere? Not from what I have observed, the opinions and recommendations are broadly based and the restaurants/shops recommended are reliable sources of very good food. I don't see the recommendations as being out of kilter with the what is available in Paris. Lots of traditional, established places as well as a few new finds, but refreshingly few trendy or hyped places. In my experience the price point of the restaurants you see on the French board is very representative of the costs of eating out well in Paris. I don't believe we are ignoring the inexpensive sub section of the market, it is a simple fact that inexpensive is €30 for dinner. "Generally, when in Europe, I always make lunch my big meal, not in particular to save money, but because that is usually how the Europeans do it" Do we? I think not. The reason a lot of restaurants have good lunch deals is that it is often a lighter meal than the equivalent meal in the same restaurant in the evening. The lunch specials are pared back to offer a simple (yes inexpensive) meal, rather than a longer more involved meal. I do agree lunches are good value and a great tactic for eating well when on a budget as you will be able to eat in better restaurants for less. Sun Jun 22 10:55:19 -0700 2008 3797880 64584 PhilD 2 3802389 "Breakfast....if you're going out, a croissant a noisette sounds good." Wouldn't you order "un creme" for breakfast rather than a noisette? Noisettes (and espresso with a shot of milk) are usually drunk later in the day or after a meal. Sun Jun 22 10:57:59 -0700 2008 3797880 64584 PhilD 3 3802533 I think that they were saying that Noisettes are a comparatively better value than a creme, because you are paying exponentially more for the milk in the creme. But yes, I definitely need some kind of milk or cream in my morning coffee (and particularly like Cafe Au Laits at breakfast) Sun Jun 22 12:14:30 -0700 2008 3802389 72814 Hoc 4 3803985 I wonder if this is a tourist thing. In my experience an express, noisette, or creme were all quite inexpensive. However, a Cafe au lait was usually (as you say) expodentially more expensive. My observation (from living and working in Paris) was that a Cafe au Lait was generally ordered by toursists whilst the locals would go for a express, creme, or noisette...and thus they were priced much more competatively. Mon Jun 23 00:55:32 -0700 2008 3802533 64584 PhilD 5 3804004 No, even in totally non-touristy parts of France the pricing works this way - sadly! In most places a café crème is exactly the same thing as a café au lait. Sometimes a café au lait, in the morning, will come in a bowl and be bigger, but usually they're the same thing. I speak French-French and my friend speaks Belgian-French so she says café au lait while I say café-crème. We each ordered our own way, recently, and the waitress said - "That's the same thing, you do know that?" before going to fetch us our identical coffees. She just wanted to check we knew what was going on! Mon Jun 23 02:03:17 -0700 2008 3803985 150920 chochotte 6 3804044 Interestingly I had different experiences to you. I generally found a cafe au lait was a lot larger, and more milky than a creme. However, as I tend not to like a lot of milk, I usually ordered a un cafe creme, and more often than not got the right balance between milk and coffee. I sometimes had a cafe au lait at breakfast when staying in hotels and got the larger more milky drink that was perfect for dunking a croiisant into. One obvious problem with coffee, the world over, is that it has very variable naming standards i.e. there is no "International Coffee Naming Standards Authority". So it is always good to understand the variations that are possible and be ready to adjust the order accordingly....! Mon Jun 23 03:55:56 -0700 2008 3804004 64584 PhilD 7 3805115 And other than the fact that one is French, one Italian and one Spanish, outside of the countries themselves I have never found any difference in taste between a cafe au lait, caffe latte or cafe con leche. Since they are all coffee with milk, all have pretty strong coffee components, all have about the same ratio of coffee to milk, and the milk seems to be steamed but not particularly frothy in all of them. Mon Jun 23 10:18:25 -0700 2008 3804044 72814 Hoc 7 3808697 Chochotte is right - there is no difference between a café au lait and a café creme. Tue Jun 24 09:02:01 -0700 2008 3804044 110146 greedygirl 8 3808845 I think we are all correct. What I was trying to say in my last post was that there is no absolute 100% definition of coffee. In some places a cafe creme and a cafe au lait will be identical, in others the cafe au lait will be served in a larger cup/bowl with a higher ratio of milk to the cafe creme served in the same place. I usually used the term cafe creme because I consistently received what I wanted. To further confuse matters I was told by my French tutor that a Parisian (which she was) would generally use cafe au lait at home over the breakfast table, whilst they would use cafe creme whilst out in a cafe or bar. And of course noisette is really only a term used in Paris, you can get strange looks if you ask for a noisette elsewhere. Tue Jun 24 09:42:23 -0700 2008 3808697 64584 PhilD 9 3818820 There are two types of "café crème": The "petit crème" , and the "grand crème." For me the half pint size, and more expensive grand crème is too much. The petit crème is a little bit bigger than an Italian (not Starbucks) cappuccino, only costs about 20 cents more than an "express" (normal coffee), and hits the spot. The trouble is, in chicer establishments, places where they're after tourist trade, and places that are up their own arses, they often don't serve the humble petit crème. Infact, I find one test of the "genuineness" of an establishment is whether they do petit crèmes, or not. If your strapped for cash, bistro sandwiches are often a good deal - i like paté and cornichons. If this isn't enough, you can supplement it by asking the barman for a hard boiled egg on the side - very Parisian, and cheap. Great meal with a panaché - beer mixed with lemonade. If you get peckish in the afternoon, I find a "lait-fraise", cold milk with strawberry syrup, hits the spot. And remember, drink and eat at the bar : leaves more time for museums, and its much cheaper. Infact, certain restaurants, some of them very good, do a really good lunch-specials that you eat standing at the bar for between 8 and 10 euros. Good luck. Fri Jun 27 07:42:58 -0700 2008 3808845 163537 vielleanglaise 10 5170471 You are totally right about the bar. After a few months in Paris, I finally realized that the coffee (noisette, Petit creme, etc.) was costing me *double* if I sat down at a table. Get your express or noisette at standing the bar for 1.20 euro (more or less). Tue Nov 10 11:21:22 -0800 2009 3818820 1114645 chickenluv 8 3901720 Yes, there is. A cafe au lait is half milk and half coffee. A cafe creme is like a macciato -- it's espresso with milk stirred in. Fri Jul 25 13:20:12 -0700 2008 3808697 83766 brendastarlet 9 3978198 Just to continue this debate... I have never had a cafe creme which is like a macchiato. A macchiato is the same as a noisette (and, by the way, I have asked for a noisette in many parts of the Languedoc in southern France, including in very small villages, and everyone seems to know what it is). Cafe cremes are often between a noisette and a cafe au lait - but in some places a cafe creme is the same as a cafe au lait. I like the idea of asking for a petit creme, because I hate all the milk you get in a full-on cafe au lait - so I'll try that next time I'm there. Thanks for the tip. Fri Aug 22 09:05:44 -0700 2008 3901720 12573 Theresa 6 4932272 And let's not forget that in Geneva, it's a renversé. If you ask for a creme, people don't know what you are talking about... Mon Aug 10 03:16:40 -0700 2009 3804004 16007 Busk 3 3811567 If you want all that milk for breakfast, yeah you would. Given that it's summer, you won't find me ordering any cremes for a while, though. Wed Jun 25 02:18:04 -0700 2008 3802389 177724 tmso 1 3805712 a couple of responses, some of which repeat earlier information. -one thing to keep in mind is that a restaurant is responsible for the prices it sets, but not for the exchange rate. i found myself asking, 'would this be worth it in dollars?' and if yes, i just went for it and made sacrifices elsewhere. having lived in paris in 2001, this is my comeuppance, i guess. -i found that when i lived there, things balanced out and my life was around as expensive as living in philadelphia. (Not NYC, which was much more expensive). this was a happy discovery. some things were far cheaper (rent, notably); food out, and drinks out, were much more expensive. when you're visiting, this doesn't work. -the key to eating great food in paris for cheap is not eating it in restaurants. bread from bakeries, cheese from cheese shops, wine from wine shops, and maybe one of those roast chickens that you always smell as you're walking through the markets. mmmm... get some of that and sit out along the canal st martin or the seine and you get an experience that, for me, beats all but the best restaurants. -that said, there are some less expensive restaurants that i really do like. since i just got back, and am even looking at my receipts, i'm seeing 16E per person (sans vin) at Le Souk, which was awesome. Au Petit Cahoua, similar prices. a nice dinner for two with some wine at a place in the 6th called au pere louis, across the street from polidor which has similar prices and was just as good last time i went there. -some keys: leave the more common/upscale/touristy areas. look at restaurants and ask: if this place was horrible, would it still do good business because of its location? if the answer is yes, go elsewhere. just some thoughts... -charles Mon Jun 23 12:11:03 -0700 2008 3796424 100357 Bob Loblaw 1 3806346 The 7th has the greatest number of good price/quality restaurants. But if you are averse to doing research, just don't eat in the 1st through 8th arr.. Remember, most cafes have a tiered pricing system; in the touristy areas there may be three tiers. The highest price will be at a tablecloth section, and the cheapest at the bar. They are required to post these prices somewhere. Good luck finding it! Mon Jun 23 14:35:29 -0700 2008 3796424 19129 Oakglen 1 3977725 I had one of the best lunches of my life at the Cafe Didot on the outskirts near a flea market (can't remember the name now). I ordered a salad, and it came with a duck leg and pieces of duck, plus a huge slab of foie gras. The rest of the salad was delicious too. It was a considerably more substantial meal than I expected when i ordered a salad- so you might try doing that instead of the formule. As I remember, it was 10 euros. That was last January. The dollar has gone down and then up a bit since then. Also, don't forget about couscous. Fri Aug 22 06:25:50 -0700 2008 3796424 105882 Gypsyfish 1 4932391 I guess I find this post slightly off the mark for many of the reasons listed below. Firstly taking exchange rate and cost of living into account 30 euros should really be considered 30 dollars and you can get plenty of good though, not exceptional, meals Paris at the 20-30 euro mark. Secondly tax and tip are included so by you calculation about 30 dollars before tax and tip is a minimum of around 24 dollars, bot much for a full dinner. Then you need to factor in drinks, are you expecting wine? I there are just too many variables but I feel like for the lunch and dinner prices you would need to up things by 5 to 10 dollars. Mon Aug 10 05:34:13 -0700 2009 3796424 138372 spacesasha 1 4978983 I agree with you. I lived in Paris on a student budget for a long time so I understand the predicament! I presume you are staying in a hotel? If so, then breakfast is best bought from a bakery, not eaten in a cafe (often a huge mark up on croissants which are only a euro or two from the bakery). For lunch, remember this is the French main meal of the day. That's why prix fixe menus are usually for lunch, rather than dinner. My first advice for eating in Paris is to get off the tourist trail. Even if you are in the Notre Dame area, it is only a few metro stops to get out of the tourist area and eat somewhere decent. In my view, best Parisian areas for food and life in general are those which are never seen by tourists - the area around Bellville (in the 20th) has great bistros where food is cheap, and the area around Fauborg St Denis has a huge Indian and African community. As a result, Passage Brady on this street is full of Indian restaurants that offer cheapest lunches around (Sometimes 10 euoros for 3 courses). In this area, I loved the Passage to Pondicherry restaurant, which has some of the best southern Indian food I ever tasted. My husband who lived in India agrees with this. Whilst Indian food in Paris is not something you'd expect to have, don't forget that Paris is a mix of different cultures who have settled there and are now as much a part of Paris as the French. Most Parisian students live in tiny flats with no kitchen, so most I knew didn't bother to cook. Wed Aug 26 07:49:42 -0700 2009 3796424 1104597 Lost Traveller