53076 Fri Feb 07 10:47:18 -0800 2003 59 2 Los Angeles Area 0 271935 Hello L.A. Foodies. I'm flying in Sat, Feb. 15th and I'm desperately seeking an extraordinary Mexican destination for that evening. West side preferred, as I'm staying in the Westchester area. Any inside up-to-the-minute recommendations? Fri Feb 07 10:47:18 -0800 2003 0 Gastro-Gnome 1 271936 La Serenata di Garibaldi in Santa Monica (on 4th street) works for me. I'm also partial to Gilbert's El Indio at 2526 Pico Boulevard in Santa Monica. It's classic, no-frills mexican. Fri Feb 07 11:02:34 -0800 2003 271935 0 lynnz 2 271938 I was a Gilbert's regular for years, but tried Lare's recently, and Lare's is much better, for food, drinks (no watery margaritas), ambiance. Just no comparison. That said, I'm not sure that Lare's is an "extraordinary Mexican destination" either. Fri Feb 07 11:17:50 -0800 2003 271936 0 Peter 3 272175 I love both places, too. Gilberts is great for their incredible breakfast/brunch specials, and Lares has the great chipotle chicken. Make sure to sit upstairs at Lares! Mon Feb 10 18:16:53 -0800 2003 271938 0 bluemonster 2 271949 Forget La Serenata--The MOST overrated Mexican mini-chain in L.A.!! Speaking of Irene-- She is the one who put them on the map. Read Michelle Huneven's review a few years ago in the LA Weekly & you read the truth about this place!!! Fri Feb 07 12:39:35 -0800 2003 271936 0 yo-yo 3 271952 Thanks, all...a hazy picture is starting to form here. Peter, I'm not a decor freak, but I AM a food and libation freak. A room with an open kitchen and a "buzz" is always fun...the noise, the culinary aromas, the table chatter...it's all good. Having said that, I don't think that East L.A. is an option for me this trip. Accordingly, take your best shot. Thanks, all! Fri Feb 07 12:44:56 -0800 2003 271949 0 Gastro-Gnome 4 272044 La Serenata is fine, probably just what you are looking for. Sat Feb 08 01:42:38 -0800 2003 271952 0 gj 5 272045 Don't waste your money & time on La Serenata!!!! There are better Mexican restaurants in LA!!! Sat Feb 08 02:01:20 -0800 2003 272044 0 homebe 6 272053 The question wasn't whether there were better Mexican restaurants in LA, it was where to find 'real' Mexican on the Westside. Personally, I don't understand all the flack that La Serenata gets on these boards. I think the food there is delicious, at least in the Santa Monica and East LA branches. I've never had a disappointing meal there, and have often been very impressed by the authenticity of the flavors and sauces. It may be priced higher than comparable restaurants East of the 5 freeway, perhaps it was a tad better before they remodeled the E. LA branch and expanded to the westside, and they may have gotten just a little too impressed with their success. However, for somebody who wants to eat delicious, more authentic mexican food than that offered at El Cholo, Gilbert's, Tia Juana, La Talpa, etc., wants to stay on the west side of LA, and doesn't want to go to a taco truck or stand, I think the Santa Monica branch of La Serenata is a great option. Sat Feb 08 10:44:30 -0800 2003 272045 0 DanaB 7 272063 Here is 2 quotes-- from Michelle Huneven LA Weekly "While some of the fishmight factually be fresh, there is no way of discerning that through taste or texture. The salmon, an oddly perfect rectangle, is pale and muddy, witha side of gaminess. The giant shrimp could bounce." "The newly remodeled and reopen La Serenata is prettier and fancier, but not tastier, which raises a question: Just how long can a restaurant glide on reputation alone?" For more negative review -- read the whole article!!! Sat Feb 08 13:38:06 -0800 2003 272053 0 yo-yo 8 272081 I'm going to have to agree with yo-yo on this one. La Serenata is awful. I gave it two chances. No more. Sat Feb 08 19:35:56 -0800 2003 272063 0 Pea 8 272085 Who really cares what M.H. or S.I.V. think about a mexican place, especially once someone's been to it themselves. I think La Serenata is acceptable but not great. They do have some creative seafood dishes. For the westside I like Monte Alban, La Tlapazola, Lares, Gilberts. I don't really care about East L.A. being better. Is it really worth a 45 minute drive if one happens to live west? Proximity matters most of the time. Sat Feb 08 21:12:03 -0800 2003 272063 0 john gonzales 9 272122 I value Michelle's opinion as much as anybody elses. She has reviewed La Serenata, since they opened in the 80,s. Long before this board was even established!! Matter of fact, Michelle was probably the only one who went against here peers at the Times, stating here total negative experience at all 3 plus the re-modeled East LA restaurant!!! Sun Feb 09 23:29:24 -0800 2003 272085 0 yo-yo 10 272124 how about your own opinion? since when does a critic's opinion override anyone's direct personal experience? seems kind of weak to dis a place based on what you've read...when there are others on this board who have gone and had a good experience. Mon Feb 10 02:00:52 -0800 2003 272122 0 lynnz 11 272129 READ MY LIPS!!!---Been There--Done That--OVERRATED--And there are a lot of people on this board & NOT on this board--who have had VERY negative experiences!!! Mon Feb 10 09:34:08 -0800 2003 272124 0 yo-yo 12 272130 Just there, your right! Mon Feb 10 10:28:49 -0800 2003 272129 0 russkar 12 272174 Totally agree. I've tried to like the boyle heights & pico locations, but I've always found them to be overpriced & the food ranged from underwhelming to awful. Mon Feb 10 18:09:12 -0800 2003 272129 0 bluemonster 10 272134 I can agree with that. Her opinion is just like everyone elses. One opinion. Perhaps one Good opinion, as I do believe she's experienced and genuine. My point was that once you, I, or anyone else actually goes to a place a few times; anyone else's opinion/review becomes a lot less significant. Especially with a cuisine that most people are very familiar with and have very frequently. Mon Feb 10 11:45:43 -0800 2003 272122 0 john gonzales 8 272086 To each their own. I've eaten at La Serenata in Santa Monica about six times over the years, and about a dozen times at the original location in East LA (both before and after the renovation). I like it. I've had very delicious meals in both locations. I agree it was better before they renovated East LA and expanded, as I think I said in my first post. It was divine in it's day. That said, I still think it's a great example of innovative mexican food, and well worth the visit. I get the sense from some people's attitudes here that it's one of those restaurants that people love to hate. That's cool, but I'm not going to base my decision of a restaurant from a bad review if my own experience tells me otherwise. Sat Feb 08 22:16:39 -0800 2003 272063 0 DanaB 8 272087 We live close to La Serenata Gourmet on Pico and frequent it; and we find they very consistently turn out terrific food, at relatively reasonable prices. The fish in spinach sauce is one of my very favorite LA restaurant dishes. Also consistently excellent are the unusual quesadillas. And one time, my wife was craving a scallop burrito and we didn't want to drive all the way to Senor Fish, and they whipped up one at L.S.Gourmet (where is not a menu item) that was just superb. Maybe some of the criticism of the more "upscale" places in the chain is because some feel the higher prices aren't justified; but down at our more humble end of the spectrum they are doing just fine. Sat Feb 08 22:53:34 -0800 2003 272063 0 PayOrPlay 9 272091 I used to work close to the one on pico. The service was always bad. The food (especially the fish) never tasted fresh. Then somebody took me to one in East LA.--SAME bad experience--just twice the price!!! Sun Feb 09 00:20:37 -0800 2003 272087 0 skidder 10 272141 authenticity aside, the problem with Serenata is that it's overrpriced. i have had some good food there but felt like i was paying for fresa atmosphere and nice plates that were somehow supposed to make me feel good about the small portions contained therein. true, smaller portions are often the rule outside of these overstuffed borders but so are low prices. Mon Feb 10 12:57:57 -0800 2003 272091 0 estnyboer 1 271937 El Cholo Cafe on the Northwest corner of Wilshire Blvd. and 11th St. in Santa Monica. Also for family style Mexican we like Tia Juana on Olympic Blvd. just a half a block West of Barrington on the North side of the street in West Los Angeles, (I like the soft tacos de barbacoa and my wife swears by their hard shelled beef tacos). Also Lares Restaurant - 2909 Pico Boulevard, Santa Monica Fri Feb 07 11:10:05 -0800 2003 271935 0 WLA 1 271939 It might help if you clarified what you mean by extraordinary. If you mean authentic, you'll do better in East L.A. If you mean upscale decor, other choices come to mind. If you mean hip-this-minute, it's another set of recommendations. Fri Feb 07 11:20:23 -0800 2003 271935 0 Peter 2 271954 Sorry, Peter...meant to post this to you. Thanks, all...a hazy picture is starting to form here. Peter, I'm not a decor freak, but I AM a food and libation freak. A room with an open kitchen and a "buzz" is always fun...the noise, the culinary aromas, the table chatter...it's all good. Having said that, I don't think that East L.A. is an option for me this trip. Accordingly, take your best shot. Thanks again, all! Fri Feb 07 13:00:14 -0800 2003 271939 0 Gastro-Gnome 1 271943 Dear Gastro-Gnome, I had an excellent meal at the board favourite Guelaguetza, which serves autentico comida oaxaqueno (as my fractured Spanish would have it). Montealban on Santa Monica Blvd. has similar stuff. Peter is right about East L.A. If you're feeling venturesome, try Tacos Baja Ensenada out on Whittier for fish tacos that will make you never wish to eat Rubio's again - unfortunate if one works at UCLA where it's the best option on campus... Happy eating, Low End Theory Guelaguetza 11127 Palms Blvd. Monte Alban 11927 Santa Monica Boulevard Tacos Baja Ensenada 5385 Whittier Boulevard Fri Feb 07 12:09:36 -0800 2003 271935 0 Low End Theory 1 271951 I am a regular at Talpa, on Pico, between Barrington and Bundy. It's certainly real, and fresh and delicious. Also, last week we went to La Abanejo, on Inglewood, just below Washington--recommended on this board. It seemed very authentic, large selection, and maybe "realer" than Talpa. It had a terrific little store attached with a large selection of Mexican brandies, over the counter medications, and other things that suggested this is a place frequented by people who know "real" Mexican food. Fri Feb 07 12:44:41 -0800 2003 271935 0 juny1cat 1 271960 Sorry, but you will not find REAL Mexican on the west side. The real places are found in the blue collar neighborhoods of East LA, i.e., Gallo's Grill, Mi India Bonita, Taco Village, Ciro's, La Parilla, etc. Fri Feb 07 13:31:59 -0800 2003 271935 0 Ernie 2 271969 Finally the truth!! I was gonna post the exact response but did'nt want to offend anyone...... Don't forget La Mascota on 3rd. , the truck on the corner of Cesar Chavez & Evergreen and Linda Marisco's on Olympic!!!!! Fri Feb 07 14:46:03 -0800 2003 271960 0 slowrider 3 271975 Just as there is good Japanese food outside of Little Tokyo and good Korean food outside of K Town there is certainly good Mexican food outside of East LA. It's not the location, it's the people and the their background with and love of the cuisine that they are preparing and serving. Conversely there are bad examples of any type of food you want to name in locations both inside and outside any geographic area that one would care to choose. Fri Feb 07 15:34:51 -0800 2003 271969 0 WLA 4 271976 Somehow eating Mexican food on the Westside does not feel right or taste right........... Fri Feb 07 15:48:51 -0800 2003 271975 0 slowrider 5 271981 Well the poster said "real" Mexican on the Westide, and is analgous to trying to find "real" Puerto Rican food in the Upper East Side of NYC. It just ain't there. Fri Feb 07 16:02:29 -0800 2003 271976 0 Ernie 6 271986 Never and always don't fit the human experience in food, love or art. Fri Feb 07 16:33:43 -0800 2003 271981 0 WLA 7 271988 OK, so where's the real Mexican on the west side? Any specific recommendations? I'd like to try it and see for myself. Fri Feb 07 16:41:22 -0800 2003 271986 0 Ernie 8 271990 On second thought, don't bother if you think El Cholo and places with hard shell tacos are "real." Fri Feb 07 16:44:29 -0800 2003 271988 0 Ernie 9 271992 Have you been to Lares? Fri Feb 07 16:59:59 -0800 2003 271990 0 WLA 10 271993 Never heard of Lares. Do they use a lot of yellow cheese and have chimichangas or fajitas on the menu? Do they make cocido, pozole, or menudo with non-canned hominy? Fri Feb 07 17:05:52 -0800 2003 271992 0 Ernie 11 271997 Try Lula on Main Street in Santa Monica. Try El Tejate on Pico near 4th, also in Santa Monica. Try being a bit less dogmatic while you are at it. Fri Feb 07 17:39:59 -0800 2003 271993 0 david good 12 271999 OK, what's best to order at Lula and El Tejate? Fri Feb 07 18:19:34 -0800 2003 271997 0 Ernie 12 272000 dear regionalist(s), though the westside often lives up to its stereotypes, if you don't know that there are tons of people from Mexico, Central America and South America living west of the 405, you aren't getting out of the house enough. if you're just trash talking for the hell of it, well, someone's got to liven things up a bit, so i can't blame you. anyway... 1) Tacos D.F., Sawtelle and Washington 2) El Abajeno, Inglewood, south of Culver 3) Guelaguetza (Palms & Sepulveda Blvds.) Juquilla (Santa Monica & Bundy-ish) - or does Oaxaca not count as Mexico? Now THAT's some authentic regionalism! 4) Fidel's, Venice, a little west of Overland (see recent posting), completely managed/run by Fidel, a Oaxacan, who makes everything fresh, and that's not Baja Fresh. 5)w/end taco stand at El Camaguey on Venice just east of Sepulveda... wait... that's actually a Cuban market... 5a)w/end taco stand at the market on Motor and Tabor in Palms got to run... the vegetable truck is about to leave and i need some onions... love, blondy Fri Feb 07 18:20:26 -0800 2003 271997 0 estnyboer 13 272001 Thanks for all the great suggestions! Finally! Fri Feb 07 18:22:35 -0800 2003 272000 0 Ernie 14 272005 And none of them in ELA. ;-D Fri Feb 07 19:09:43 -0800 2003 272001 0 WLA 13 272003 Good list. I'd also add Monte Alban on Santa Monica near Barrington for Oaxacan (although I like Juquila's the best of the three), and La Playita on Lincoln and Ozone in Santa Monica/Venice has excellent tacos and burritos. And yes, Ernie, I know that burritos are not authentic Mexican. But I would assert that having been invented by Mexicans from Mexico, and originally having been meant for other Mexicans from Mexico, who happened to live in the Mission district of San Francisco, they are an authentic creation of Aztlan. In any case, their tacos are perfectly legitimate. Tacos Por Favor, on Olympic at about 14th in Santa Monica, is pretty good too, although not better than La Playita. I like their chorizo tacos and chicken sopes, though. Fri Feb 07 19:01:45 -0800 2003 272000 0 David Boyk 14 272011 There certainly seems to be a few Oaxacan on the west, although I understand Guelaguetza near K-Town is best, and that's hardly west side. But beyond moles and the more Central American flavors of Oaxacan, where are the decent Zacatecas, Michoacan, Sinaloa-style places on the west side? There are literally countless of these tiny cafes, (sometimes nameless) trucks, in every East LA neighborhood, some run out of people's homes. Sorry, I'm just a 4th-generation Angeleno purist and the original poster spelled REAL in all caps. That's enough to get my attention. Have also been very disappointed by the small SF Mission district. Those SF-style burritos you mention are particularly nasty. Fri Feb 07 19:41:13 -0800 2003 272003 0 Ernie 15 272071 Mi Ranchito, in Marina Del Rey, is a very good Veracruzana place. I've never actually had the Veracruzana dishes, because I've been warned away from the seafood, but it's a good place for Mexican standards, prepared fairly authentically. More to the point, the original poster has emphasized that he wants Westside places. Just because he really wants to be in East LA doesn't mean that it's impossible to find decent eats anywhere else. And how about some East LA suggestions? What are your favorites? If you were disppointed by the Mission, you went to the wrong places. Look on the SF board next time. You won't get attacked by anyone saying, "The Mission is worthless. You need to be in Bodega Bay or Fruitvale." Sat Feb 08 14:55:50 -0800 2003 272011 0 David Boyk 16 272074 I've listed many places thus far on this thread, but maybe some more are in order? Cafe Mi Michoacan, Nena's Kitchen, Azteca, Siete Mares, Taco Ready, Lupita's, Taco Room, etc., etc. On my last visit tried 3 places in the Mission/SF area, but nothing memorable. The SF style seems too bland for my tastes. Sat Feb 08 17:28:24 -0800 2003 272071 0 Ernie 13 272093 I second the rec for Tacos Don Felix. Just a little taco joint, nothing fancy, but the carnitas tacos are quite "real" and quite good, and the burrito mojado w/ red sauce -- tho' few would call it REAL Mexican -- is the most addictive thing I've had in years. The wife, who can't take heat, craves the spicy red sauce fortnightly. Me, I get one whiff of the stuff and turn into Pavlov's dog. Great stuff. For Westside taco shops, there's also Taqueria Sanchez at Inglewood & Culver right next to El Abajeno (also at 4541 Centinela, but I prefer the Inglewood location) -- great pastor tacos. If your idea of real Mexican is standing on the sidewalk scoffing up tacos, then this one's for you. Still, if you want REAL, head to the Alameda Swap meet on the weekend (Alameda Avenue at 45th Street). No, it's not Westside, but it's as real and as fun as you can get -- vendors selling every different kind of great stuff to the crush of Mexican families who show up every weekend. Sun Feb 09 04:38:42 -0800 2003 272000 0 bjensen 14 272189 another vote for taqueria sanchez on inglewood(i think their meat market is next door/behind). i like the lomo & al pastor tacos. Mon Feb 10 19:10:34 -0800 2003 272093 0 petradish 1 272004 There is ONE place on the west side that serves REAL Mexican Food. It's Loteria Grill at Farmers Market at 3rd & Fairfax. This is like eating in the best places in Mexico, not the so-called mexican fare that we get at the typical El Cholo-types. If you've been to Mexico and loved the food, then go straight to Loteria. I've been with my SO several times and have been blown away with how delicious the food is! Try the tacos on hand-made tortillas; the mole is outstanding, and they have great breakfast. Try the chilaquiles. They have 3 (red, Green and Mole). My favorites are the green. Fri Feb 07 19:09:26 -0800 2003 271935 0 Patricia 2 272012 That sounds great, especially great Mexican breakfasts. I can't wait to try it! Thanks! :) Fri Feb 07 19:53:45 -0800 2003 272004 0 Ernie 3 272518 What part Canadian. Mexican is good, but do you miss Smoked Meat sandwiches? If you are from Montreal you do. Restaurant in Westwood imports directly from a deli in Outremont. The smoked meat may be a reason to give the place a try, but the rest of the menu, plus the atmosphere and staff will keep you coming back. Reasonable prices also. Just trying to help out. Enjoy. Link: http://soleilwestwood.com/ Thu Feb 13 15:22:04 -0800 2003 272012 0 GlennL 1 272055 Nothing up to the minute about it, but you'll be pretty close to La Cabana at Lincoln & Rose (on Rose) in Venice. If you want to stay on the Westside, go there or Serenata. Sat Feb 08 11:40:52 -0800 2003 271935 0 mc michael 2 272070 What? La Cabana is *terrible*. Much worse than, say, The Talpa, which is already pretty gringoized (Talpa had its day, but that was a few years ago) and unexciting. La Cabana does have good margaritas, though. Sat Feb 08 14:43:35 -0800 2003 272055 0 David Boyk 3 272072 Actual mileage may vary. I find it nice, homey, good margs and I like the freshly made tortillas. Sat Feb 08 15:03:36 -0800 2003 272070 0 mc michael 3 272111 I have been going to Talpa at least once a week for years and years (and years!) I have not noticed any change at all except for the fact that when Serenata went in they added some sea food entrees to their menus. The same women are in the kitchen during the daytime; the owners and servers are mainly the same family. I am interested in what you think has changed. Sun Feb 09 19:58:44 -0800 2003 272070 0 juny1cat 1 272200 While this thread is almost dead, I just wanted to way in with two thoughts. I also had no idea what a "canadian" wanted when asking for REAL mexican. Great antojitos - DF style, Michoacan style, great tex-mex, great mariscos and seafood cocktails, great oaxacan, great yucatecan, veracruzan seafood, Baja california style Spiny lobster, pollo placero like in Morelia, Mexican breakfast of sweet rolls and coffee, homemade tamarindo drinks, ate made from quince or prickly pear or other fruit, paletas, fantastic homemade tortillas available on the table, cafe de olla, pozole, menudo etc. Is there anyplace that has all of this? Can't imagine (where can I get tacos with carp eggs like at Tlaquepaque, if I remember right). Mexican cuisine is so varied both regionally and with ways of eating. Frankly, Mexican coca-cola made with cane sugar is also available and also authentic. As is a place with a fantastic selections of fresh pressed juices. The inflight magazine of one of the mexican airlines is online and is fascinating with its range of food and drink covered, some of it little known outside small 'microclimates' of cuisine (there's a mexican sweet made out of "cabello de angel", a different plant than the pumpkin like Spanish "cabello de angel", just like Mexican horchata is nothing like Spanish horchata de chufas). As well, there has been a large Mexican population in southern California esp. since the 1910 revolution (sorry folks, most of the old Californios assimilated, most of the non-coastal indigenous were never hispanicized, and the economy wasn't rich enough to attract much Latin immigration until after the turn of the century, check out Starr's histories of California). And this Mexican population has made food here out of local ingredients and for local markets which while different than those found in Mexico proper have a history of well over eight decades in places like el Cholo and are a part of the local scene. Are factory made tortillas less authentic than those hand-patted comal-heated fluffy things that are so enticing? Anyway, REAL mexican? sure. Howreal? Where can I get good cafe de olla? Where is there a decent coctel vuelve a la vida? c'mon folks. Mon Feb 10 20:27:33 -0800 2003 271935 0 Jerome 2 272240 Well written and interesting take on the thread. I just figured that almost any Mexican food in Southern California was going to be "authentic and delicious" to a Canadian, eh? Immigration has continued unabated via the back roads and irrigation ditches of the California, Arizona and Texas borders. This keeps the "cooking" authentic, (whatever the hell that means) to a great degree, and not only from the Mexican food perspective, but from the other Central American countries too. As to your hunt for a "Volvo Cocktail", (is that a Swedish/Mexican dish?), I found a link for a restaurant in OC that looks like a place to give it a try, (scroll to the bottom of the home page and then click on the seafood link). Link: http://www.menusunlimited.com/eltapatio/default.htm Tue Feb 11 10:04:14 -0800 2003 272200 0 WLA 3 272300 THANKS. This looks great, not only because of the seafood but because of the range. You can get your "autentico" mariscos, menudo, cocido, pozole AND your "gringista" friends can get margaritas and combination plates. Something for everyone and possibly good mariachi band. I like to go down to Orange County for the Bowers Museum (good restaurant there, or used to be) and this looks like another reason to get to Santa Ana. Tue Feb 11 16:50:48 -0800 2003 272240 0 Jerome 4 274239 I'm located a mile from El Tapatio (in the South-West corner of Santa Ana which borders Costa Mesa and Fountain Valley, near the Harbor exit of the 405). Other than genrally being simple, "real" Mex is hard to define; Staples vary from region to region. Mexico has 31 provinces spanning two oceans, desert, mountains, rainforest and latitudes from Texas almost to the Equator. Nevertheless, the concentration of first-generation Mexican nationals in Santa Ana assures that most any exotic ingredient from, say, Michoacan or Jalisco can be had at some local mercado. Food at any of the hundreds of mom-n-pop taco stands in Santa Ana could legitimately be called "authentic" Mex. I had been interested in checking out El Tapatio Grill ever since they took over the Cherry Blossom Japanese restaurant that had been at Harbor & Warner for many years. Since my first visit there I have been somewhat of a regular, though I don't think it will be the dining experience our Canadian friend is looking for. El Tapatio is operated by a local Chicano/European family who have recurited a pair of talented chefs from the Southern coastal tourist areas of Veracruz (Atlantic) and Acapulco (Pacific). As one would expect, they are quite conversant in seafood and upscale tourist faves, as well as the less glamorous regional native styles and ingredients such as tripe, iguana and insects. Unfortunately, the restaurant has been struggling and is not able to stock a large variety of good fish and meat. The bar stocks maybe six mediocre brands of tequila. Their house margarita to be about the worst I have had anywhere. The decor is dark and shabby --the restrooms darker and shabbier. Why am I a regular, then? For all its lack of glamour, the El Tapatio kitchen is able to do wonderful things with everyday ingredients and things like dime-sized shrimp. They will improvise and bend over backwards to deliver something authentic at a modest price. The lunch buffet and Sunday brunch are terrific values. Not a place to take a date 40 miles out of your way, but for good, basic chow using authentic staple ingredients at very reasonable prices, it's worth a stop if you happen to be in the area. For a more upscale, romantic atmosphere and very home-grown Sonoran cuisine, I would recommend any of the family-owned El Cholo restaurants in the Los Angeles and Orange County area. Wed Feb 09 00:00:27 -0800 2005 272300 0 Mrphph 2 272245 Jerome, Yes, an excellent take. Almost overwhelming, really. Realistically? ANYTHING is light-years better than the crap that they try to pass off as "Mexican" where I'm from. I've read carefully through all posts in this thread , and I realize now what a complex culinary topic it really is. At any rate, I will use my solid, experienced gastro-instincts and intuition to guide me along the path to Mexican gastronomic enlightenment. At worst, I should be able to avoid watery margaritas. Thank you to you and to all for a lively discussion. Aclamaciones! Tue Feb 11 11:41:35 -0800 2003 272200 0 Gastro-Gnome