53056 Wed Feb 05 14:00:50 -0800 2003 37 2 Los Angeles Area 0 271769 and this is the lst time she reviewed a restaurant where you can get out of there for about 10 bucks (except for jr's bbq a couple years ago which if i'm not mistaken she gave 1 and 1/2 stars to). (although clementine isn't exactly cheap for a sandwich shop). i can agree with her assessment of the place. i've been there numerous times for lunch, great turkey sandwiches and egg salad sandwiches and banana cream pie and the rich butterscotch pudding (i don't know if they offer this pudding anymore, probably just have the chocolate one). i like to think of it as a mcdonald's for grown-ups. give it a try if you haven't already. you can trust her on this one. usu. it seems like for the places she reviews, the more expensive the place, the higher the star rating (see Ginza sushiko review and aubergine reviews). Wed Feb 05 14:00:50 -0800 2003 0 kevin 1 271779 do you think she gives all expensive restaurants good grades? or do you think maybe it's more that the best restaurants are usually more expensive? Wed Feb 05 14:46:03 -0800 2003 271769 0 FED 2 271782 I think she tries really hard to like her friend's restaurants (read: Tim and Liza Goodel and others). At the very least she mentions their restaurants repeatedly in her weekly Q&A. She is just too chummy with some restauranteurs and chefs to be unbiased, and she even goes to the restaurants test dinners and private dinners. How can she possibly write about the ordinary diner's experience when she obviously makes no attempt to not be recognized or receive special treatment? Wed Feb 05 15:41:54 -0800 2003 271779 0 doe 3 271783 S. Irene also seems to think the best food in Los Angeles lies only between The city of Santa Monica and La Cienega, so I find her articles mildly entertaining if not woefully myopic. Wed Feb 05 16:06:12 -0800 2003 271782 0 Ernie 4 271787 That's ok - you can always read LA Weekly, whose Michelle Huneven lately seems to believe that the best food in LA only exists in an area roughly bordered by Los Feliz, Silverlake and Atwater Village. Wed Feb 05 16:42:37 -0800 2003 271783 0 brian h 5 271791 Funny how they call it LA Weekly. More appropriate names would be West LA Weekly and the West Los Angeles/East Coast Transplant Times. Wed Feb 05 16:55:54 -0800 2003 271787 0 Ernie 6 271798 And just think how those of us behind the Orange Curtain feel!!!! Wed Feb 05 18:09:28 -0800 2003 271791 0 LBQT 7 271812 You have OC Weekly! Wed Feb 05 19:16:10 -0800 2003 271798 0 brian h 3 271799 one shouldn't write accusatoins that one doesn't know for sure. do you actually know that she is friends with the goodells? or any other chef? maybe she just likes his cooking. could happen. Wed Feb 05 18:19:56 -0800 2003 271782 0 FED 4 271816 FED, I didn't make any "accusatoins" and I'm not accusing S. Irene Virbila of anything. What I did say is that because she is human, I think her relationship with them inevitably affects her reviews of their restaurants, that's not to say she doesn't write that some aspects of their restaurants need improvement, but I do get the impression she tries very hard to like their restaurants. IMO restaurant critics should always do everything in their power to remain anonymous (wigs, glasses, dining with different people, using a different name every time to reserve a table, NOT going to private dinners offered by the restaurant before they open to the public etc.) BTW, are you a "friend" of the Goodells? I noticed I had mispelled their last name in my original post but you didn't. Wed Feb 05 19:34:32 -0800 2003 271799 0 doe 5 271821 probably a misunderstanding. for a professional restaurant critic, giving preferential treatment to people they know is a serious accusation. worth firing over. anonymity is very important. while wigs and funny glasses are pretty much good only for press releases, most responsible critics will make reservations under different names, pay with credit cards under different names and vary their dining partners. they absolutely should not go to preview dinners and i'm assuming you were not saying that SIrene did that. or were you? i'm certainly not a friend of the goodells, i guess i'm just more careful with my spelling. Wed Feb 05 20:07:08 -0800 2003 271816 0 FED 6 271827 What is with you? Why so angry? Whatever you're getting from this can't possibly be worth the stress you're causing yourself. RELAX. Really I don't have time to continue this nor the inclination. I was just stating my opinion. You know, that's what we do here in this forum. And no, you're not more careful with your spelling ("accusatoins" remember?) Please do a little homework before you continue to stick your misinformed foot in your mouth. No one said anything about "funny" glasses either. You're giving off a very strong odor of angry displacement, do you realize how obvious it is? You're taking this WAY TOO PERSONALLY. Relax. Your accusatory tone is unwarranted. Bet you beat your dog too. Wed Feb 05 20:47:25 -0800 2003 271821 0 doe 7 271832 you're probably right. I'm probably just overreacting. For you, this is probably just idle chatter. But you ought to understand that you are stating as facts things that are not true and that are injurious to another person's reputation. you have claimed, either directly or by inference, that Sirene a) has friends who are restauranteurs; b)gives those friends preferential treatment; and c) does not protect her anonymity the way a professional should (reservations under different names, etc). anyone reading those accusations would have reason to believe them, since someone obviously wouldn't write something like that without the facts, right? and then why should they believe anything Sirene writes in the future? all a critic has is their credibility. undercutting it, even when it's just idle gossip, is a serious thing. and my dogs are fine. Wed Feb 05 22:21:28 -0800 2003 271827 0 FED 8 271850 I'm very offended by your condescending tone. What is not true is that Aubergine is a 3 star restaurant. Virbila injured her own reputation by awarding so many undeserving stars to that restaurant. It is no secret that Vibila likes to be known. You have a very romanticized and naive notion of this reviewer. I suspect you don't really believe what you write. It would be so nice if Virbila could only be so unbiased, so anonymous, so unpreferential, but she's not. Just read her reviews and you'll understand where so much skepticism is born. Thu Feb 06 02:50:01 -0800 2003 271832 0 hmmmm. 8 271857 Until now I have only lurked (for years) but this topic bothers me so much I have to say something. FED, you keep making statements about what a good reviewer's habits and standards are and you keep assuming that S. Virbila adheres to these standards. She does not. That is precisely the problem. You can't back up anything you have written anymore than you claim the other poster can not. I waited on S.V. when I worked as a server several years ago. Although we didn't know she was coming, she made no attempt to disguise herself when in the restaurant nor was she even nice. It is so hard to serve a food critic like her because she EXPECTS to be given special treatment. The owners are called, the chef comes out. She is given extra tidbits. The other patrons can almost always sense it. Blame it on the owners if you want but they are not stupid, they understand the rules of the game. I have to go to work. Thu Feb 06 11:13:56 -0800 2003 271832 0 Samatha G. 6 271843 When Aubergine reopened 2-3yrs ago , We were there and told by a server I.S.V. was just there a week ago, next thing I know it's receiving 3 stars, yea right. HORRIBLE MEAL $350- for 2 for what? Reheated tasting menu, never again! Thu Feb 06 01:29:22 -0800 2003 271821 0 russkar 7 271845 I didn't want to get into this but Russkar is right, the food stinks at Aubergine. When I read Irene Virbila's review of it I knew something was up because there is NO WAY that place deserved 3 stars. Thu Feb 06 01:51:45 -0800 2003 271843 0 Jano 7 272027 I have never eaten at Aubergine but my wife and I ate at Troquet a few years ago and it was superb, the best meal I've ever eaten in Orange County. And we are neither food critics nor friends of the chef/owners. Fri Feb 07 22:21:49 -0800 2003 271843 0 Jeff Falls 8 272100 So what?! Nobody said you have to be a food critic or friend of the chef/owner to have a good meal at Troquet. Sun Feb 09 15:54:48 -0800 2003 272027 0 nibbler 5 271823 I have to agree with Doe here. There are quite a few things I pick up that make me question the kind of relationship the reviewer has with the restaurant. An old article I remember, she mentions that Georg Riedel (of Riedel Crystal, the uber-expensive stemware) "happens" to turn around from his table, and offers her to drink some wine from his line of wineglasses. Now, given that I am a nobody, I really don't think Georg Riedel will ever turn around during his dinner and say, "Would you like to try some '83 Margaux, from my new Vinum Extreme?" Not unless I'm somebody in the the "industry", and even some guy from Austria knows it. A few reviewers like Merrill Schindler and Elmer Dills don't hide the fact that they do not visit restaurants anonymously, (or even that they are paid to promote some restaurants in Schindler's case). And some restaurant reviewers write a disclaimer that they reserver under a pseudonym, and pay for their own meal. Too bad Virbila dosen't offer her methodology. Because of the obvious biases, I've stopped reading Virbila's reviews for the last few months. Wed Feb 05 20:18:53 -0800 2003 271816 0 Panoz 6 271829 I also have stopped reading her reviews. My bestfriend actually sat next to her at one of the restaurants she reviewed last year. ( I don't know if she was actually reviewing the restaurant that night.) But the staff definitely know her because my friend asked her waitress why they were fawning over her (Virbila's) table, thinking the people at the table must be famous. The waitress told her it was Irene Virbila, the restaurant critic for the LA Times. Wed Feb 05 21:11:53 -0800 2003 271823 0 Bizou 7 271835 do you know her age or what she looks like some i can make a beeline for the door if i happen to see her at a restaurant that i might patronize. Wed Feb 05 22:31:36 -0800 2003 271829 0 kevin 7 271858 Hi Bizou, I implore you to NOT describe her physical appearance here on this board or in any public forum as she is already given so much special treatment. Those of us who have served her already know what she looks like but why be a part of making paying patrons look for her, she likes to be recognized. Thu Feb 06 11:32:16 -0800 2003 271829 0 Samantha G. 5 271830 doe, are you referring to Bastide? Because I can tell you for a fact that she went to at least three preview dinners there. Everybody there knew who she was. Wed Feb 05 21:23:51 -0800 2003 271816 0 In the Know 4 271842 Aurbugine is not good, enough said! Thu Feb 06 01:23:22 -0800 2003 271799 0 russkar 1 271796 I agree with the review as well. Clementine is excellent and makes my quality of work life much much higher. But please don't go. Parking is bad enough as it is. Wed Feb 05 17:27:38 -0800 2003 271769 0 JudiAU 1 271839 Clementine is a treasure. Nice to see it get exposure. My advice is to early to avoid the crowds. Thu Feb 06 00:19:08 -0800 2003 271769 0 Marco Polo 1 271846 I'm addressing all participants, Kevin, not just you! This site's devoted to finding the ample delicious treasure lurking all over the place. It's a forum and clubhouse for passionate eaters to share the fruits of their intrepid discoveries in every genre of chowfulness. Over the years, we've shown that the cumulative wisdom of the chowhound network is a gazillion times more savvy and current than any authority (including me, the Mikhail Gorbachev of restaurant critics). This network is an unbeatable source of info for anyone seeking heightened deliciousness. And I built this clubhouse because we never had anywhere to hang out and compare notes, thus bringing the network together. And what are we doing? Posting 26 heated messages analyzing and debating the minutiae of some famous food writer! I'm not saying you can't/shouldn't use this forum for this. But geez Louise, guys, who CARES? Ms. Verbila is one person, one writer, with one mouth and one opinion, who holds a large amount of sway over non-hounds who like their food info filtered through a branded palate. Why get all caught up with it? There's deliciousness out there to track, wonderful people cooking wonderful things outside the limelight. There are secret menus to be found and decoded...and this forum, which could be (and has at times been) a sensational war room for that sacred hunt, is increasingly devolving into mindless foodie chat. Again, I'm not asking for the discussion to end (though if it turns nastier, the moderators will excise), but can I ask that all participants ALSO try a new taqueria on the way home today and report back? Track a missing sushi master, seek a better slice of pie? Find an off-menu thing to order at Spago? Run through the various consulates in town to find the ones with lunchrooms? Ask coworkers where to find superior marble cake? Scrutinize bagel shops to find hand-rolled? Above all, drive to a nabe you've never been and EXPLORE...and report back? God, doesn't all this sound worlds more interesting and useful than nattering on about some critic?? Sorry for the mini-tantrum. ciao Thu Feb 06 01:55:58 -0800 2003 271769 0 jimleff@chowhound.com 2 271847 Hey Jim, I see your point and it is still fun to read the rants about our local reviewers. By the way, you made my trip to NY last October a better thing with your comments on the NY board about il Laboratorio del Gelato. I paid a visit there and loved it. Thanks, dude. Thu Feb 06 02:22:53 -0800 2003 271846 0 Marco Polo 2 271868 I'd like to remind you not to change the subject headings. It makes it difficult for other users to finsd the post. I'd just thought I would let you know before the "Chowhound Team" jumps on your back. Thanks Jim. Thu Feb 06 13:46:46 -0800 2003 271846 0 belgepunk 3 271875 Ah, but the Alpha Dog didn't change it, he coloned it, which is fine when the thread response is changing. Normally I hyphenate it, but then again I don't want trouble with my colon. ;-D Thu Feb 06 14:45:59 -0800 2003 271868 0 WLA 3 271883 Ha! FYI, amending subject titles is permitted and even desireable. Everyone reading along via hotposts is able to track the thread because I've left the title intact, just tacking on a suffix. This is a good way to define sub-branches of threads. FYI, the chowhound team actually DOES moderate my posts. I get deleted once every few months or so. I love it that they care enough about the site to do so (btw, each time they've been absolutely correct)! ciao Thu Feb 06 15:43:28 -0800 2003 271868 0 Jim Leff 2 271870 >>". . . can I ask that all participants ALSO try a new taqueria on the way home today and report back? Track a missing sushi master, seek a better slice of pie? Find an off-menu thing to order at Spago? Run through the various consulates in town to find the ones with lunchrooms? Ask coworkers where to find superior marble cake? Scrutinize bagel shops to find hand-rolled? Above all, drive to a nabe you've never been and EXPLORE...and report back? God, doesn't all this sound worlds more interesting and useful than nattering on about some critic??" My feelings exactly - thanks Jim! New discoveries are the true and unique benefits of this board. If I want to find out about foodie hangouts like Josie or Spago, I'll go to Zagat or read the Times. Please Chowhounds, take Jim's above words to heart, memorize them, make them your mantra, and go out and explore. And thanks Kevin for discovering Cafe Hiro in Cypress. I'm going to post my full report soon - a wonderful find! Thu Feb 06 14:15:47 -0800 2003 271846 0 Chris G. 3 271871 You're right, and to answer one of the posters who said, "...or do you think maybe it's more that the best restaurants are usually more expensive?", I'll have to answer no. Cheap hole-in-the-walls probably won't top with foie gra, shave Perigord truffles, and garnish beluga caviar on everything, but it still can be damn good and flavorful. Price is hardly proportional to how good a restaurant is. I'm done with this thread. On to the chow! Thu Feb 06 14:23:55 -0800 2003 271870 0 Panoz 4 271882 I've drunk 1929 Chateau Lafite, and I've drunk an astonishingly great banana milkshake. Both made me glad to be alive and expressed deep things. Neither felt like a consolation prize for the other. Different pleasures come at different prices, and the categories are horizontal, not vertical. The entire spectrum of hyperdeliciousness deserves respect and appreciation, and both snobs and reverse snobs miss out on greatness. A real chowhound never shuns greatness in any realm...so the same is hopefully true for this site! ciao Link: http://www.chowhound.com/writing/editorial.html Thu Feb 06 15:39:31 -0800 2003 271871 0 Jim Leff 5 271913 Jim- I applaud your eloquence. My only response after following this complete thread is "Say Goodnight, Gracie". Thu Feb 06 20:27:22 -0800 2003 271882 0 Local 3 271881 "If I want to find out about foodie hangouts like Josie or Spago, I'll go to Zagat or read the Times" To clarify, we DEFINITELY do high end here. Chowhounds are omnivores, appreciating all realms. Deliciousness is deliciousness, let's not pass over any of its many manifestations! The chowhound focus, though, is on genuine quality, not the smarmy smoke and mirrors. I.e. drawing one's own irreverent conclusions, unaffected by hype and conventional wisdom. Thu Feb 06 15:34:30 -0800 2003 271870 0 Jim Leff 4 271886 I have no problem with high-end, just with hype (and it doesn't matter whether it's in the Times, in Los Angeles magazine, or here on Chowhound). I come here to find info that I don't know and can't get elsewhere - you don't exactly need to be John Charles Fremont to figure out that Spago, Josie or any other L.A. restaurant with a full-time publicist is any good. But if you do know of an off-menu item or a special menu at these places, I want to hear about it. Thu Feb 06 16:11:03 -0800 2003 271881 0 Chris G.