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broiling with oven door open

a
allieinbklyn Jun 1, 2008 06:26 PM

can someone explain what the deal is with this? my mom has a great DCS stove that she inherited with a new house and we can't get the broiler to work correctly!

  1. r
    retiredappltech Sep 5, 2009 06:24 PM

    hi. if you have the book, or can find the site online, the help desk of the manufacturer can help you determine if you need service. use only the manufacturers recommended authorized service for any repairs, and if its just something you didn't know, please be prepared to pay at least the minimum charge graciously. look at the serial plate to have the model and serial number ready, and there may be a phone number, too.

    1. c
      clsseattle Jun 7, 2009 07:44 PM

      Does anyone know of a new wall oven that allows you to broil with the door open? I'm desperate! Thanks!

      1. c
        clsseattle Jun 7, 2009 07:42 PM

        I recently bought a GE wall oven. The instructions say to broil with the door closed. The GE tech said that is because the electronic controls above the door will melt if the door is open. Great! With the door closed, the broiling element turns off, and the meat bakes, but it DOES NOT BROIL!!!! The GE tech told me this is a design flaw. I hate this! In addition, the oven itself overheats! The tech is coming (again) tomorrow, and is supposed to call GE tech support about the broiler. If in fact I can't broil with the door closed, I am going to return this piece of junk.

        1. d
          Docsknotinn Jun 1, 2008 08:01 PM

          I don't understand your question. Do you mean the broiler won't run when the door is open?

          39 Replies
          1. re: Docsknotinn
            aztami Jun 2, 2008 05:26 AM

            OK, here;s the deal with the open door......

            Any newer oven has a safety feature which will turn off the the upper heating element off and on to control the high temperature you achieve when broiling something. When that happens, you are essentialy "baking" your food because the heating elementis isn't lit up and "broiling". If you leave the door cracked the interior oven doesn't get so hot and the upper element stays lit up the whole time.

            1. re: aztami
              a
              allieinbklyn Jun 2, 2008 06:21 AM

              Sorry that I wasn't clear.

              Thanks aztami for the explanation.

              The problem is that I can't get the broiler to come on, and I thought that was probably because I wasn't keeping the door open correctly (which I was told I had to do). But maybe that isn't the problem..

              1. re: allieinbklyn
                d
                Docsknotinn Jun 2, 2008 06:32 AM

                Why would you have to have the door open for the broiler to come on? That sounds like there is a problem. Does it come on when the door is closed? If not then you need service.

                1. re: Docsknotinn
                  m
                  masha Jun 3, 2008 09:33 PM

                  The doors on electric ovens must be left open for the broiler element to come on. Not so for gas ovens. I assume that the OP's oven is electric and that Docsknotinn uses gas.

                  1. re: masha
                    southernitalian Jun 4, 2008 11:14 AM

                    I've got an electric oven and the broiler works just fine with the door closed.

                    1. re: southernitalian
                      Soop Jun 8, 2009 02:05 AM

                      Mine goes out if you close the door.

                      *edit* it's gas too.

              2. re: aztami
                d
                Docsknotinn Jun 4, 2008 04:50 AM

                Leaving the oven door open to broil imo is a not a wise idea or something that should at least be done with extreme caution. While a broiler does cycle on and off it runs at the highest heat setting for your oven. Typically 500-550 degrees.
                If you leave the door open you have high temp air rising up the front of the face of your oven, with grease. You can damage the knobs and even the gas valves this way. Some pull the drip pan out if they have one as a heat deflector. This can warp the drip pan, discolor it, damage the top of the oven door, possibly damage the oven door seals and worse yet if you have any grease on your drip pan you could start a fire. While the fire is an extreme example if you do this frequently over time you can expect to damage your range.
                With the door closed and the broiler on you are not baking. The broiler is an exposed element so you have a direct heat Vs most baking elements that are under the oven floor pan resulting in more of an indirect even heat. People become concearned because in the case of infrared units they notice the color of the broiler is dim. If the unit is functioning properly then it has reached the units temperature setting. I can not imagine what one would be broiling to require temps beyond 550. Steaks placed on the top rack in most ovens char rather quickly at 500 degrees but clearly this all depends on the brand and type of range you have.

                1. re: Docsknotinn
                  j
                  janniecooks Jun 4, 2008 08:55 AM

                  Just checked the owner's manual of my newish Whirlpool range (2003). For broiling, the manual says to "close the door to the broil stop position" which is actually having the oven door ajar, or open to 5 1/2 inches (that's where the broiler stop position is, and yes, I measured it).

                  It is an electric oven. This topic had come up earlier in the year, so I experimented with broiling with the oven door fully closed, despite what the manual instructed, and guess what? The broiler failed to work. Maybe there was heat coming from the bottom element, but nothing from the top element, and the definition of broiling is the applying direct heat from above, not below.

                  So it would seem to depend on the type of oven, or even the manufacturer.

                  1. re: janniecooks
                    d
                    Docsknotinn Jun 4, 2008 11:10 AM

                    Yes I believe this must be a manufacturer specific issue. My comments about excess heat/damage are geared towards the commercial style ranges with a higher BTU broilers.
                    So you have to have the door open to light the broiler and keep it open for the broiler to work? I would be pretty unhappy with that. If the bottom element is functioning in any way when the oven is on broil then ultimatly you are baking and broiling.

                    1. re: Docsknotinn
                      a
                      allieinbklyn Jun 4, 2008 06:01 PM

                      I'm pretty sure mine doesn't work with the door closed. I will call the manufacturer...

                      1. re: allieinbklyn
                        jfood Jun 4, 2008 06:18 PM

                        most of the residential ovens have a stop-gap devise which shuts the element off when the internal temperature exceeds a given number. by keeping the door ajar it allows the element to stay on and keep the stuff broiling. If it is closed then the internal temp gets too high, the element shuts off and the stuff bakes versus broils.

                      2. re: Docsknotinn
                        c
                        CrazyOne Jun 4, 2008 09:30 PM

                        Heh, I learned even 20-odd years ago you do that with an electric oven. I doubt it had any kind of door interlock then, though it could have at least had an overheating sensor even back then. That electric range in the house I grew up in was avocado, if that gives you a sense of anything ;-) (circa 1973). The one in my house now (here when I bought it, purchased new by previous owners circa 2000), even does such things as electrically locking the door for the clean cycle, and it's just a cheapie (Frigidaire). I don't actually know if the element works with the door shut, but the bit about broiling with the door cracked open to the special notch was pretty well ingrained.

                        Note that on a standard free-standing electric range, the controls are usually still on the backsplash, so there are no controls there at the front to be damaged by the heat coming out of the partially open oven door. I have seen some drop in/slide in type electric units that have front controls though, and I'm not sure how broiling in those would affect the controls. One would think this is well-tested, but one never knows with this stuff these days....

                        1. re: Docsknotinn
                          applehome Jun 6, 2008 01:12 PM

                          Ever used a salamander? It's wide open.

                          Over 30 years of cooking with gas & electric, both top and bottom style broilers, I've always had the door open - never, ever closed it whether the range would let me or not. In most home ranges, the broiler is small and concentrated, and you have to keep moving your item around to get an even broil.

                          You're emulating grilling - do you close your weber? (If so, you're roasting, not grilling.)

                          1. re: applehome
                            d
                            Docsknotinn Jun 6, 2008 03:56 PM

                            A salamander does not have the option of closing and is mounted over the top of a range. A charcoal grill is used out doors and does not have plastic control panels, motherboards or gas valves. I just don't see any comparison.
                            As I already mentioned my reference was to commercial style ranges with high BTU broilers. I would not want to leave the oven door open to broil. I prefer the smoke grease etc goes straight up into the exhaust vent, not my kitchen. ( I really hate to paint ;)
                            One would hope that an oven or range designed to operate this way would work well but to me it does seem rather odd considering we now have anti tip clips so a child can not pull the oven over and/or get burned but they design ranges with doors that must be open to broil?

                            1. re: Docsknotinn
                              m
                              masha Jun 6, 2008 11:01 PM

                              As Jfood indicated, the "opening" of the door involves leaving it slightly ajar, with about a 1 inch gap at the top. In our house, its a wall oven, so the opening is about 5 feet off the ground -- not within the area that a child could reach.

                              1. re: masha
                                d
                                Docsknotinn Jun 7, 2008 04:19 AM

                                Others have indicated some ovens must be left open as much as 5.5" to operate. Nearly all ranges would have the door with in reach of a child which is why every manufacturer in the USA now includes anti tip clips. I also think Jfood is opting by choice to open the door for the reasons he stated. Others apparantly with some brands and products have to open the door for the broiler to function.

                                1. re: Docsknotinn
                                  applehome Jun 7, 2008 06:25 PM

                                  Broiling and grilling are cooking with direct infra-red radiant heat, not with convection. Cooking with convection, where moving hot air surrounds the meat, is roasting or baking. If you shut the door, you are creating a convection cooking system - high heat, no doubt - but convection nevertheless. The air is caught around the object and moves through convection, passing heat as the hot air touches the meat. Direct radiation is heat being produced by a source within inches of the meat, directly heating the meat.

                                  Broiling is just like grilling, but upside down. With the heat source within inches of the meat, you have to move the meat around - so keeping the door shut makes no sense. If you shut the door, and you're not moving the meat around, you're not broiling, you're just using an element intended for broiling to generate heat to heat the air that surrounds the meat - roasting.

                                  I refer you to Harold McGee's On Food and Cooking, 2nd edition, page 782, Basic Methods of Heating Foods.

                                  You are SUPPOSED to keep the door open. You shouldn't be broiling for long periods of time (as you would roasting) and you should not be broiling unattended. There should certainly not be any small children around as you broil.

                                  1. re: applehome
                                    d
                                    Docsknotinn Jun 8, 2008 06:01 PM

                                    "Broiling and grilling are cooking with direct infra-red radiant heat, not with convection"
                                    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                                    You are not cooking with infrared in any way shape or form unless you are using an infrared heat source. Not all gas grills are infrared nor is charcoal. Many electric ovens such as the topic of this thread will not have infrared broilers.

                                    "Cooking with convection, where moving hot air surrounds the meat, is roasting or baking"
                                    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                                    You do not have to use a convection oven to be roasting or baking. Conventional ovens roast and bake as well. Convection is created by moving the air with a fan. If you could creat a convection oven just by closing the door as per your previous post all ovens would be convection. Clearly that is not the case.

                                    "If you shut the door, and you're not moving the meat around, you're not broiling, you're just using an element intended for broiling to generate heat to heat the air that surrounds the meat - roasting"

                                    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

                                    You are indeed broiling if you shut the door as long as the broiler element continues to produce radiant heat. The notion that you must keep the door open to move your food is silly. Just open the door and move it! If the broiler on your unit shuts down from excess heat then indeed you would be roasting at 500+ degrees. The distinction there for practical purposes is probably moot in most cases because of the high temp of the residual heat. If you are cooking a thick steak roasting from the residual heat is not a bad thing. Many restaurants mark off thick steaks then put them in a high temp oven to finish. Roasted, grilled or broiled the focus is on the quality of the finsished product

                                    "You are SUPPOSED to keep the door open"
                                    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                                    That's subject to interpretation at best and depends on your oven/range/broiler. You are supposed to use your equipment in a safe manner to cook the way YOU like and have fun cooking. Opening the door on a commercial style range with an 18,000 BTU broiler will allow a LOT of heat out the front and push the temp way beyond 600 degrees. Some ranges are actually designed to function properly with the door closed and have exhaust vents in the oven so there is no need to open the door to broil. Other manufacturers obviously require the door to be open to function.

                                    "There should certainly not be any small children around as you broil."
                                    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                                    I agree but accidents do happen. Making ovens with safety clips then producing an oven that REQUIRES the door to be open to broil is just a little bid comical. No doubt the bean counters were responsible for that idea.

                                    1. re: Docsknotinn
                                      applehome Jun 8, 2008 07:47 PM

                                      "You are not cooking with infrared in any way shape or form unless you are using an infrared heat source. Not all gas grills are infrared nor is charcoal. Many electric ovens such as the topic of this thread will not have infrared broilers."

                                      Well, sir, I'll take McGee's word over yours. Scientific fact, Doc, is that all heat sources produce energy in the infrared part of the spectrum.

                                      pg 782:

                                      "Because all molecules are vibrating to some extent, everything around us is emitting at least some infra-red radiation. The hotter an object gets, the more energy it radiates in higher regions of the spectrum... [But] cooking by radiation is... a slow process except at very high cooking temperatures, those characteristic of grilling and broiling near glowing coals, electrical elements or gas flames."

                                      The point, which your not understanding makes the rest of your post moot, is that there is indeed a transition to a different type of cooking - from convection to direct infra-red (indeed!) radiation at a certain temperature. The distinction is most certainly not moot - it is an important point to understand if you want to be able to cook properly with the various techniques available to you. On the grill, you need to know when to cook over direct infra-red heat (to get the maillard reaction) and when to move it over to indirect (convection). You have to know how to do the same indoors. Broiling is used for a very short term, either to start or finish the meat or dish. The very idea of keeping your broiler on with the door closed for a period of time is to simply not get what broiling is all about.

                                      PS - Convection heat, like infra-red, has nothing to do with a convection oven - it is a type of heat transference, caused by fluids (which include gasses) moving against objects or against other fluids. Fluid dynamics 101... oh, well, fluid dynamics was more like 301, but that's besides the point. What kind of a doc are you?

                                      1. re: applehome
                                        d
                                        Docsknotinn Jun 8, 2008 10:16 PM

                                        "all heat sources produce energy in the infrared part of the spectrum"
                                        ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

                                        I was under the impression we were discussing ovens and broiling. The normal discussion in this context is convection Vs conventional ovens not the science of convection, conduction or radiatiant heat. Broilers work with radiant heat and yes all heat sources including charcoal produce some heat in the infrared spectrum but that is vastly different from the topic relating to broilers. Here we would be discussing ceramic Vs "Infrared". I'll attach a photo of the two SXS. In short I don't dissagree with you at all technically. I agree this is solid information but I think your getting lost in minutia as it applies to broiling with the oven door open Vs closed. Reading your posts one would think it's less than desireable to cook with a combination of broiling and roasting. I dissagree completly and the notion that you must have your oven door open to be "broiling" is just off the mark. Not all ovens and broilers are created equally.

                                        "Broiling is used for a very short term, either to start or finish the meat or dish. "

                                        Sorry but that is just not accurate. Many high end steak houses utilize broilers like infrared swing broilers to completly cook steaks. Others utilize lower BTU broilers or gas grills to mark off steaks then finish them in a high temp oven. A salamander is used for short term broiling to finish a product.
                                        That's cooking 101.
                                        So others can visualize I'll attach a link to a cheesemelter salamander broiler.
                                        A Garland ceramic broiler and a drawing of a salamander mounted over a range which is typical in commercial applications.

                                        http://www.instawares.com/infra-red-cheesemelter-broiler.icma-60.0.7.htm

                                        http://www.instawares.com/master-series-ceramic-natural.gar-m60xr.0.7.htm

                                        http://www.instawares.com/sentry-s680...

                                        1. re: Docsknotinn
                                          applehome Jun 9, 2008 01:39 AM

                                          Science is science, whether you're talking about cooking or anything else. Direct radiant heat is different from convection, and cooks meat with different characteristics. Don't take my word for it, read McGee for yourself.

                                          As long as we're focusing on something, let's focus on the op's question, which was about a residential oven, not fancy broiler gear for specialty restaurants (even salamanders are not part of the home kitchen - although if I had the money...).

                                          I have no idea where you get that "reading your posts one would think it's less than desireable to cook with a combination of broiling and roasting" because that's precisely what I have recommended all along. I simply compared what went on outside on the grill to what people should be doing inside, in the oven, if using a broiler. Broil, to get the maillard reaction, then roast. You can also pan-broil, searing and getting the maillard reaction by using a very hot heavy duty pan on a burner, then finish by roasting in the oven. Outside on the grill, you put the meat directly over the hottest coals or the gas burners (hard to do with gas) to get the sear, then you move it off, or turn the temp down and close the top, to finish by roasting.

                                          The point of open vs. closed door still stands. You wouldn't close your weber outside while using direct heat, the radiant heat needs to be applied directly, with no on-going convection. So why would you close your oven door while applying the same direct heat technique?

                                          Simple - do what you want and what makes the food turn out the way you like - but if you close the oven with your broiler on, you're just roasting in a very hot oven. You will not get the same searing/maillard reaction effect that you otherwise would with the door open, and the direct radiant heat otherwise undissipated by moving air.

                                          1. re: applehome
                                            d
                                            Docsknotinn Jun 9, 2008 05:23 AM

                                            As long as we're focusing on something, let's focus on the op's question, which was about a residential oven, not fancy broiler gear for specialty restaurants
                                            +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                                            What happened to "science is science'"? The same principals of thermodynamics apply in the home as any restaurant. FYI the equipment listed is standard fare. You will find a swing broiler in the vast majority of all restaurants.
                                            Perhaps it's just the way I'm reading your posts but some of what you have posted indeed appears to suggest that roasting is not desireable. Broiling and roasting can be a desirable combination.
                                            "If you shut the door, and you're not moving the meat around, you're not broiling"
                                            That's simply NOT true as long as the broiler is still producing direct radiant heat at a higher temp than the residual heat in the oven.

                                            "The point of open vs. closed door still stands".
                                            I agree however you continue to fail to recognonize that not all products are created equal. The technical aspects of thermodynamics in context to the OP's question are indeed completly moot. Broiling is not always "emulating grilling". Swing broilers with grates emulate grilling. Home ranges do not. Do you grill on a pan? Of course not. You are always cooking on direct heat with a grill unless you use something like a plate setter in a BGE. Sure you can turn your heat down but even 200 degrees directly underneath is indeeed direct heat whether you are roasting, grilling or just having fun.
                                            In either event you feel a oven door must be left open to broil.
                                            Which may indeed be true on your oven. However on a Viking gas range and other commercial style home ranges that is not the case. Many are designed to work properly with the door shut. I continue to suggest others strongly consider the fact that they will be loosing the gas broiler when thinking about a dual fuel commercial style home range
                                            "do what you want and what makes the food turn out the way you like"
                                            I posted to that effect earlier and I agree completly. Do what works best for you. It's all good!

                                            1. re: Docsknotinn
                                              applehome Jun 9, 2008 08:35 AM

                                              Once again, you have not read McGee or anybody else that has competent scientific information. Radiant heat only becomes a significant factor in cooking above certain temperatures (the higher, the more radiation) - at 200F, it is not a major factor at all, whether the meat is directly over it or not. The meat is cooking by convection, not by direct radiation.

                                              Cooking on the charcoal weber, one learns to make a pile on one side, which is the direct source, and then to move the meat over to the other side and put the cover on to finish. It's in the instructions. Just as broiling/roasting is de rigueur in kitchens around the world.

                                              I guess I'd like for you to show me a link for this mythical swing broiler that a home cook might use. I doubt that it is using intensive radiant heat throughout the cooking process, since radiant heat only works at high temperatures and no piece of meat could tolerate that for long before the surface would just simply be burnt shoe leather. In fact, any "broiler" that is intended to cook meat to doneness would have to be using a combination of radiant and convective heat.

                                              I'll buy that different equipment operates differently. But I maintain that broiling/grilling is something that is done with intense heat, inches away from the meat - that it requires constant attention (if done right) to insure that the meat is getting a good and even crust, and not getting burnt. If you have a device or system where you are leaving the meat alone to finish in the heat, direct or otherwise, the temperature is simply not hot enough to be cooking with radiant heat - and it is simply not broiling. So closing the door is indeed moot - if you're closing it, you're not broiling correctly - with the attention it needs.

                                              1. re: applehome
                                                d
                                                Docsknotinn Jun 9, 2008 11:30 AM

                                                "So closing the door is indeed moot - if you're closing it, you're not broiling correctly - with the attention it needs"

                                                Yaaaaaawn. Completly inane.
                                                Your right back to failing to recognize that there is any difference in equipment at all.

                                                1. re: Docsknotinn
                                                  applehome Jun 9, 2008 12:48 PM

                                                  And once again, you don't understand the science behind broiling vs. roasting. I think I'll eventually figure out any equipment set in front of me because I know the theory and science. I'm not sure that the same can be said for your lack of understanding of science.

                                                  This is a generic problem with many in the business. People knock molecular gastronomy because all they understand of it are some frau-frau techniques. In fact, as Herve This says, MG is the science - like the understanding of radiation vs. convection. It's obvious that it doesn't take a high IQ to become a chef. But the ones that get past their line jobs have developed an understanding that goes beyond the empirical.

                                                  Perhaps you should read Harold McGee's On Food and Cooking: the Science and Lore of the Kitchen, as I have recommended for the umpteenth time.

                                            2. re: applehome
                                              f
                                              foo1024 Jun 9, 2008 06:55 AM

                                              I have a gas kitchenaid oven where the door must be closed or the broiler element turns off. However, it also turns off when the oven temp hits 500F. It is very hard to get good browning in this type of oven. I try to deal with it by closing and then opening the door every 20 seconds to keep the heat down in the oven so that the temperature sensor doesn't turn off the element, and so that the safety feature doesn't see the door open for more than 30 seconds which also turns off the element. A real pain.

                                              1. re: foo1024
                                                applehome Jun 9, 2008 08:39 AM

                                                This is just nonsense (not you, the KA oven). 500F is just not as hot as you need to broil properly. I've moved into furnished places that had ovens that just couldn't broil worth a hoot - it definitely puts a kink in the process. I would just stick to pan-broiling - preferably with a good exhaust fan.

                                                1. re: applehome
                                                  f
                                                  foo1024 Jun 9, 2008 12:04 PM

                                                  I think the broiler element itself can get hotter than 500F, but once the temp sensor in the oven thinks that the entire oven is heated to 500F it shuts off. The trick is to give the broiler element itself enough time to preheat (it's gas with an electric "assist") without letting the oven air temperature get to 500F thus shutting off the broiler. I can't say I've been very successful at doing it. I cooked breakfast sausage using the opening and closing door method I described in the previous post, and they reached 200F internal temp by the time they were somewhat brown on two sides (about 12 minutes). These sausages still taste pretty good that way, but a steak or fish would have been way overcooked.

                                                  Does anyone else have this problem with closed door broiling? Is my broiler just weak?

                                                  I am thinking about preheating a cast-iron grill pan under the broiler for about 10 minutes, put the food on the pan and then do the open/close door trick to try to keep the broiler on and hopefully get browning on both sides before the food bakes too much.

                                                  1. re: foo1024
                                                    m
                                                    mlgb Jun 9, 2008 01:20 PM

                                                    It is sad when the Food Network gets it right and our self-proclaimed chef doesn't get it at all

                                                    What is the difference between broiling and grilling?

                                                    A: Both broiling and grilling create a seared crust on food, giving it a rich, concentrated flavor. This is achieved with radiant heat: with broiling, the heat is above the food, radiating down; and with grilling, the heat is below the food, radiating up.

                                                    Broilers in a home oven have coils (electric) or burners (radiant or infrared). The coils or burners are either attached to the ceiling of the oven or are located under the oven, accessible by opening a drawer. Powerful broilers have a large burner or more bends in the coil, which increases their surface area, allowing more heat to cook the food. Broiling with home ovens can be tricky — many are built with safety measures that shut them off when they reach 500 degrees F, causing the food to steam in its own juices instead of broil under intense heat.

                                                    Here are some simple tips for successful broiling:

                                                    1) Preheat the pan under the broiler before putting the food on it — this shortens the cooking time by allowing the food to cook on both sides at once.

                                                    2) Know your broiler: check for hotspots by placing toast on a sheet pan and broiling it. The parts that brown first are the hottest parts of the broiler.

                                                    3) Keep the oven or drawer door open while broiling: the temperature never reaches a high, but the broiler maintains its temperature.

                                                    BTW, don't bother to reply. Applehome has already said it all.

                                                    1. re: mlgb
                                                      d
                                                      Docsknotinn Jun 9, 2008 02:04 PM

                                                      Thank you for confirming every thing I have been saying. Including that broiling is cooking with radiant heat. My exact words;
                                                      "You are indeed broiling if you shut the door as long as the broiler element continues to produce radiant heat"
                                                      I even got you a cute little photo of both types of broiler coils.
                                                      The topic at hand here is shutting the oven door versus closing the door. I'm not suprised at your confusion based on the quality of your posts about other cooking appliances. It may help to actually read the thread before you respond. ;)

                                                      1. re: Docsknotinn
                                                        m
                                                        mlgb Jun 9, 2008 02:21 PM

                                                        BTW, don't bother to reply. Applehome has already said it all.

                                                        +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

                                                        Other than YOUR unwillingness to accept that Viking HOME ranges have a high frequency of repair, their is nothing wrong with MY posts.

                                                        1. re: mlgb
                                                          d
                                                          Docsknotinn Jun 11, 2008 04:36 AM

                                                          YOUR unwillingness to accept that Viking HOME ranges have a high frequency of repair
                                                          ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                                                          That's a rather odd statement considering that I have posted I have had repairs. I also post how Some of those repairs are easilly done by a home owner. That's the beauty of a Viking.
                                                          What you have posted is rubbish like repairs cost "$800" and apparantly you have never owned or even used a Viking product. It is fine to have an opinion and not favor a product for your own reasons but posting blatantly false information is pretty useless. At least that's my .02 adjusted for inflation.

                                              2. re: applehome
                                                d
                                                Docsknotinn Jun 9, 2008 11:32 AM

                                                You can also pan-broil, searing and getting the maillard reaction by using a very hot heavy duty pan on a burner, then finish by roasting in the oven.
                                                +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                                                I hate to point out the obvious but clearly by your own definition that is not broiling. Whoops. ;)

                                                1. re: Docsknotinn
                                                  applehome Jun 9, 2008 01:04 PM

                                                  Actually, you're right - Pan-broiling is not classical broiling, since the heat transfer is direct - it is neither radiation nor convection, but yet another form of heating, conduction. As the pan heats up, it directly passes the heat onto the meat. Nevertheless, the heat absorbed by the meat will definitely be hot enough to create a maillard reaction, and the cooking can continue by convection as if it had been broiled.

                                                  I did not invent the term pan-broil - it has been in use (rightly or wrongly) for some time by many chefs. McGee doesn't even mention it. But the term has come into use because of one common factor - extremely high heat. When one says broil, what is being conveyed is a cooking temperature that is much too high for anything but creating a quick sear, a maillard reaction.

                                                  1. re: applehome
                                                    d
                                                    Docsknotinn Jun 9, 2008 01:34 PM

                                                    When one says broil, what is being conveyed is a cooking temperature that is much too high for anything but creating a quick sear, a maillard reaction.
                                                    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                                                    Ahhhhh So now the definitions change. You see we agree after all. What you have just stated crosses the line from pure science to practical application. BTW A quick sear does not absolutly indicate a Maillard reaction. That would be dependent on the product that you were searing.

                                                    1. re: Docsknotinn
                                                      applehome Jun 9, 2008 01:56 PM

                                                      PLEASE read McGee. He has a whole section on browning - caramelizing vs. maillard. The term sear doesn't even appear. But Herve This discusses the so-called "searing" in terms of sealing in juices, which doesn't occur at all.

                                                      A Maillard reaction is one between an amino acid and a carbohydrate molecule - it occurs with meats, coffee beans, chocolate, even dark beers. It occurs immediately at the right temperature, with the right elements presented - it turns the meat or whatever, brown. The amount of time spent presenting to the proper heat will affect the depth of the reaction, and thus the actual quantity of the products of the reaction (the elements and flavors created) will differ. But brown indicates a maillard reaction, period. Indeed, a quick sear does indicate a maillard reaction.

                                                      If the definition changes seem to be too complex for you, I apologize. If it was not clear to you that I was explaining a particular common usage, rather than an explicit denotation, once again, I apologize. The difference here may be that you are insisting that pure science and practical applications are separate animals. Indeed, it is the understanding of pure science that makes practical applications work better.

                                                      1. re: applehome
                                                        d
                                                        Docsknotinn Jun 9, 2008 02:47 PM

                                                        I was explaining a particular common usage
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                                                        I understood that just fine thank you as well as I understand a Maillard reaction. Not all products will yield this reaction. Many believe that the browning of lean meat (venison) is technically not a Maillard reaction since it does not involve the reaction with a sugar. I'll leave that debate for another day. In spite of what Ruhlman might think one source is not always definative.
                                                        I completly agree with your assessment of science and practical application. However earlier in this thread I was referring to common and practical useage and you were insisting on an explicit definition. Now you choose to use a common useage when you coin a phrase like pan broiling. Most of us call that pan searing. Not broiling. In either event it's been an enjoyable thread. A good amount of witty banter is always fun. I'd love to continue but I'm off to Maine for some lobster rolls. :)
                                                        You asked for a link to a residential swing broiler. Here is one but perhaps not the best example.. Typically restaurant infrared broilers go to 1850 degrees and this one does as well. This is how a Pittsburg rare or black & blue is achieved. Turned down they sear and cook completely. Yes I agree with your techincal assesment but either convection or radiant heat it's all residual heat from the broiler element.

                                                        http://www.prizer-painter.com/pdfs/Bl...

                                                        1. re: Docsknotinn
                                                          applehome Jun 9, 2008 03:36 PM

                                                          That is the stove I want. You get the infra-red broiler, plus you get the option for a salamander. I guess you have to build the house around one of those.

                                                          But with regard to the maillard reaction, once again, read the real stuff - it's science - it's not someone's opinion about something. I have no idea what Ruhlman says - he is full of opinions, as are we all here at CH, and its entertaining, no doubt. But McGee relates science.

                                                          In McGee's browning section, he specifically explains that caramelization happens when there is a predominance of sugar. A maillard reaction is what happens when there is more protein than sugar - it's the amino acid, not the sugar that makes it a maillard reaction. It starts with the reaction between an amino acid and a carbohydrate atom. "An unstable intermediate structure is formed, and this then undergoes further changes, producing hundreds of by-products... a brown coloration and a full intense flavor result. Maillard flavors are more intense and flavorful than caramelized flavors because the involvement of the amino acid adds nitrogen and sulfur atoms to the mix of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen, and produces new families of molecules and new aromatic dimensions."

                                                          I am not a scientist or expert. I have opinions just like you or anybody else. But the biggest problem on the Internet is seeing so many opinions that you lose track of the real facts, and when you see a source of facts, you write it off as just another opinion. It's not so!!! Facts, particularly scientific and historical facts, are facts! Harold McGee prints facts - I've seen an opinion or two, but clearly identified as such. Herve This is hitting 100% as far as I know - everything he writes is a result of actual experimentation.

                                                          Open/close - whatever... but I'll say this. If someone is using their oven broiler as an additional heating element for roasting, they are misusing it, and probably making some very well done steaks. A broiler, properly used, is for short, intense, up close, radiant cooking - I haven't met one yet where I haven't had to move it around to account for the hot spots - just like the charcoal on the grill.

                                                          1. re: applehome
                                                            d
                                                            Docsknotinn Jun 9, 2008 04:48 PM

                                                            If someone is using their oven broiler as an additional heating element for roasting, they are misusing it, and probably making some very well done steaks. A broiler, properly used, is for short, intense, up close, radiant cooking -
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                                                            Now there's a statement I ageee with 100%.
                                                            I don't dissagre about Maillard but there are as you say other opinions.

                                                            "I guess you have to build the house around one of those"

                                                            LOL I hear ya but that is a brand that gets a lot of play on this forum. Hey I did say it wasn't the best example but they do exist.

                                                            There are broilers that work well. They do come at a dear price.

                    2. m
                      mpalmer6c Jun 1, 2008 07:59 PM

                      So what's the problem?

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