520935 Tue May 20 07:14:17 -0700 2008 32 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 3704322 I was served a cocktail the other day wherein a stalk of rosemary was the swizzle stick holding the olives. Cute and all, but the rosemary was wilted, flaccid. Was this simply because it was past its prime, or could the weight of the olives or the coldness of the drink have caused it to wilt? Surely not the latter, though, since ice water generally shocks stuff back to life? I realize that, as usual, I am probably overlooking the obvious, so feel free to pounce. Tue May 20 07:14:19 -0700 2008 11106 tatamagouche 1 3704351 Could it be the alcohol killing the plant? Not the most physiologic of liquids. Tue May 20 07:21:45 -0700 2008 3704322 89969 moh 2 3704396 You got me. I'm a science loser. How long would that take? (Thanks for answering by the way—this isn't the sexiest of topics!) Tue May 20 07:35:17 -0700 2008 3704351 11106 tatamagouche 3 3704462 No problem Tatamagouche! I find it an interesting question to ponder. Plants, like other living things, are made of cells. Cells need a friendly environment to survive. If you put naked cells (see, this is sexy!) in straight water, you can actually burst the cells open, as water floods into the cell to maintain a balance in salt concentrations. This can happen very quickly, but plants have very strong cell walls, so it isn't immediate. Alcohol is a toxic solution to cells, so sticking a live plant into alcohol isn't the best way to grow a garden. I could see this being a good way to wilt a plant. My plant science knowledge is a little rusty, but I think the concepts are sound. Tell you what! I am going to stick a stalk of rosemary in some alcohol right now! It'll be a little experiment. Good thing I have both in the house right now... and maybe a little too much time to kill... I'll put one in regular tap water too. (I have a plant, so it is alive as we speak... hope there is no plant version of PETA). Tue May 20 07:55:02 -0700 2008 3704396 89969 moh 4 3704474 OK, so I have put the rosemary in some vodka. I think that is a neutral enough spirit. I have to say the combination of vodka and fresh cut rosemary is an intoxicating smell! Tue May 20 07:59:03 -0700 2008 3704462 89969 moh 5 3704501 Wowee! I await your word. Tue May 20 08:04:46 -0700 2008 3704474 11106 tatamagouche 1 3704675 FWIW...Rosemary is a hot weather plant, suited for hot, dry climates. While the Rosemary speared olives is delightful on it's own, I suspect it's the coldness of the drink that wilted poor Rosemary. Tue May 20 08:50:20 -0700 2008 3704322 75332 Gio 1 3704693 Rosemary doesn't typically wilt if it sits too long after it's picked -- it tends to get dry and brittle, not soft and limp. So my guess is that there was something about the alcohol medium that made it "wilt." Tue May 20 08:52:49 -0700 2008 3704322 138816 jlafler 1 3704721 Ok, so a report back on the alcohol experiment: It has now been 50 minutes since I stuck a fresh live sprig of rosemary into tap water (left hand side) and pure vodka (right side of photo). Both look perky and lively. This is why you do experiments! Certainly in the short term, pure alcohol seem to have no increased effect of wilting rosemary. So it is not the alcohol. I am beginning to suspect that the wilted rosemary has more to do with early prep of the garnish. Perhaps they were prepared earlier in the day and left for too long, causing them to wilt? I have not excluded the olives as a cause, but unfortunately, we are clean out of olives I think. Tue May 20 08:57:54 -0700 2008 3704322 89969 moh 1 3704739 Whoops, here is the picture: water left, vodka right Tue May 20 09:01:32 -0700 2008 3704322 89969 moh 2 3704783 Fascinating guys! And here's my pic. So now what? Jlafler says it should've gone dry if it was out too long, moh thinks it might have gone soft. Anyone else? The olives remain a possible culprit too. Tue May 20 09:09:51 -0700 2008 3704739 11106 tatamagouche 3 3704846 My goodness! That is quite wilty! Sherri's points about new growth and old growth spears is an interesting one. The spears I used were definitely a little woody. But that being said, the leaves remained quite perky. Tue May 20 09:22:36 -0700 2008 3704783 89969 moh 4 3704984 Could it have anything to do with the brine from the olives if, as moh said, the prep was done earlier in the day (sticking the olives on the rosemary branch mid-day but it not being used until evening?) Tue May 20 09:50:14 -0700 2008 3704846 10532 LindaWhit 5 3706191 I dunno, the olives were cheese-stuffed...would they have left those out? Hopefully Sherri will have the answer for us later. Tue May 20 14:38:17 -0700 2008 3704984 11106 tatamagouche 2 3704900 - Breaking news - 90 minutes after placing the rosemary into the alcohol, I noticed that the leaves nearest the vodka are turning black. There is definitely a toxic effect of alcohol on the living plant. It is the 4 bottom leaves that have been affected. But the top part of the sprig looks as vibrant and non-wilted as ever. Tue May 20 09:33:37 -0700 2008 3704739 89969 moh 3 3704903 Hah! I feel like I should send this thread to the owners of the lounge I was at. They might appreciate it for future reference. Tue May 20 09:34:30 -0700 2008 3704900 11106 tatamagouche 1 3704791 I live in the SW of the US and grow a lot of rosemary here. We use it for a lot of different applications in the kitchen. The end tips, new growth, are very soft and tender. It wilts easily, especially if held out of water for any length of time. The older, woody branches are much sturdier and can withstand a lot of abuse. FYI: rosemary is related to the pine family and quite hardy except for freezing temps. It withstands the searing heat of a hot grill when used for kabobs as well as stirring a Bloody Mary. It is likely that the rosemary you got in your cocktail was some of the new-growth tender spears that are so easy to cut since they're right out at the ends of the branch. In the interest of science, I'll try both new growth and old growth spears with olives tonight for a couple of martinis. Scientific research only ........ will let you know. Tue May 20 09:11:23 -0700 2008 3704322 15743 Sherri 2 3704818 moh & Sherri, you are quite the dedicated knowledge-seekers! Tue May 20 09:16:45 -0700 2008 3704791 11106 tatamagouche 3 3706453 For love of science, making merry, Pouring herbs into their Sherri. Caution, testers, comme il faut, Your livers cannot take much Moh! Tue May 20 15:57:43 -0700 2008 3704818 11791 DonShirer 4 3706474 :::::::Applause! Applause!::::::: Bravo, DonShirer! Tue May 20 16:07:11 -0700 2008 3706453 10532 LindaWhit 4 3706510 Take your bows, Sir Shirer. Absolutely brilliant! Je vous remerci. Stand by, the scientific experiment has begun. Three pieces of rosemary into gin X 2 -- one batch into the refrigerator, the second at room temp (air-conditioned house, Phx today = 110 degrees). The three pieces are: 1) tiny soft new growth, this is very pliable 2) medium growth, about halfway into the bush, stiff & hardy 3) old growth, has hard woody stem and large leaves. After 30 minutes nothing has happened to either group. They look exactly the same as they did at the start. Stay tuned, I may have to call the neighbors to validate the results as about six ounces of Tanqueray are involved. Tue May 20 16:25:59 -0700 2008 3706453 15743 Sherri 5 3706530 Stay tuned, I may have to call the neighbors to validate the results as about six ounces of Tanqueray are involved. ~~~~~~~~~ Now THOSE posts would be interesting to read later tonight! :-) Tue May 20 16:31:26 -0700 2008 3706510 10532 LindaWhit 6 3706667 A perfect example of why, after 7 years, I still adore Chowhound. Tue May 20 17:35:05 -0700 2008 3706530 11106 tatamagouche 7 3706786 OK, scientists reporting in and a very happy group we are. #1 all the sprigs kept in the refrig look equally good. #2 as I guessed, the tiny new growth fared the worst at room temp. It is drooping but nothing like the OP's photo. I'll leave this for one more day. The other two (@ room temp) look fine except they are getting some black leaves. Tomorrow will tell - if we can still stand. I'm not usually a fan of "flavored" martinis but will make an exception for these! Quite nice, especially with a garlic-stuffed olive ......... Meantime, Cheers for science! Later: some gin-soaked musings ....... wonder if the OP's wilted sprig spent time under the kitchen heat lamp? Don't think I'm up to turning mine on, even in the interests of scientific research, but if someone in chilly climes would be willing to take the risk ........... it could add to our research. NB, it would have to be someone with access to fresh new tender rosemary sprigs. Tue May 20 18:27:47 -0700 2008 3706667 15743 Sherri 8 3706936 I think the new growth theory is the best so far... 11 and a half hours later, the two woody shoots in water and vodka have not yet wilted. The one in water looks perfect. The one in the vodka is slowly turning black (the leaves that is), but is not wilting. So let that be an important lesson to us all! When using rosemary as an alcoholic swizzle stick, it is best to use older woody stems! My goodness, if only all scientific experiments were this fun... Tue May 20 19:27:49 -0700 2008 3706786 89969 moh 9 3707616 The verdict seems to be in, then! Thanks heartily to you all! I shall pass the findings on to delite, the lounge in Denver whence the drink came. I'll let you know whether they were appreciative or tossed me out on my can. Wed May 21 05:22:31 -0700 2008 3706936 11106 tatamagouche 4 3706942 Donshirer, so wonderful of you to grace us with your poetry as we ponder the whys and wherefores of herbs and alcohol. Truly the act of a civilized and sympathetic human being! Tue May 20 19:29:45 -0700 2008 3706453 89969 moh 1 3707701 Sherri? Sherri? How are you feeling this morning? :) Wed May 21 06:05:31 -0700 2008 3704322 89969 moh 2 3708225 We're moving slowly and gently, thank you - anything for scientific research, eh? A few more thoughts about wilting rosemary ......... It is a greedy, swilling plant as all the gin left in the respective glasses was sucked up by these lushes. Each stalk has brown leaves, whether they were refrigerated or not. The non-refrigerated plants look much worse for the wear and are drooping substantially. The refrigerated ones are OK but droopier than yesterday. One lone spear that I added at the last minute ("seemed like a good idea at the time" sort of thing which probably skewered my results and will keep me from Nobel contention) was simply cut a new sprig and lay it on the counter overnight, no water, no gin. It is the droopiest of all, definitely wilted and quite sad looking (as is the face I see in my mirror .....) So, fellow knowledge seekers, the moral of this little scientific tale seems to be to cut fresh rosemary and drink as quickly as possible. Wed May 21 09:14:57 -0700 2008 3707701 15743 Sherri 3 3708513 "It is a greedy, swilling plant as all the gin left in the respective glasses was sucked up by these lushes. Each stalk has brown leaves, whether they were refrigerated or not." So, Sherri, how was that gin soaked rosemary? You did try it, in the name of science, of course :-) Wed May 21 10:28:10 -0700 2008 3708225 80937 danhole 4 3708674 Yikes, she says smacking her forehead! I've grilled gin-marinated "Martini Salmon" but missed the boat on this one. For shame, but will remedy it at earliest convenience. Instead of pork w/ juniper berries, I believe that Rosemary Martini Pork will be on our menu soon - the stalks are extremely aromatic and on their way into a brine. Thanks for the yummy reminder. Am not certain that we were thinking on all cylinders ................... Wed May 21 11:08:10 -0700 2008 3708513 15743 Sherri 5 3708801 Yeah, all that "research" does make you a bit brain dead! Sounds like a tasty treat! Wed May 21 11:43:41 -0700 2008 3708674 80937 danhole 1 3707981 My guess is that the rosemary was stored too long refrigerated in a plastic bag. Wed May 21 07:55:45 -0700 2008 3704322 12014 LStaff