514757 Wed Apr 30 18:00:52 -0700 2008 57 33 Food Media and News 0 3645041 Many Hounds are suspicious of science and biotechnology. One of the latest entries in the "CropBiotech Update" that I regularly receive describes work to develop gluten free wheat--something that various Hounds might appreciarte: "WSU Receives Grant to Develop Gluten Free Wheat The United States' National Institute of Health (NIH) has awarded Washington State University (WSU) a four-year $837,000 grant to develop novel wheat varieties that are free of gluten proteins. Gluten triggers inappropriate immune system responses in people affected with Celiac Disease. This genetic disease can create symptoms that range from diarrhea and cramps to nutrient malabsorption and malnutrition. One in every 100 or 200 Americans or 4 percent of Europeans are estimated to suffer from gluten intolerance. The only effective treatment is a lifelong gluten-free diet. Adherence to such diet is difficult, since gluten is also being used as a filler and binder in many non-food items such as medicines, vitamins and paper adhesives. Scientists from WSU have previously discovered a lysine-rich barley mutant that lacks gliadin, the gluten component that triggers the disease. They hope to identify the mutation and use this to make gluten-free wheat varieties that are also rich in the essential amino acid lysine. WSU has partnered with Arcadia Biosciences, a Seattle-based biotech company, for the task." Is this a good or a bad thing? Wed Apr 30 18:00:53 -0700 2008 36661 Sam Fujisaka 1 3645170 What a silly thing to do, sez I, a person unable to eat wheat. First of all.. why bother? Wheat without gluten is what? Wheat-flavored rice? You could no more make "real" bread with it than with rice flour. Second, not all persons who must avoid wheat are celiacs. Some of us are missing the enzyme that allows wheat eaters to properly digest certain wheat sugars. Joint inflammation, rashes, reversible ADDHD, and depression are among the symptoms manifested in those with a wheat sugar problem. A celiac can't eat soya sauce or drink wheat-based beer, but those of us with the skewed enzyme can, because the sugar has been pre-digested by fermentation. Even de-glutenized wheat would make those of us with this gene sick. Wheat grass juice makes us especially ill.. sugars again. I personally would rather they were searching to find an enzyme we could take to help us eat wheat. Most of us with this wheat sugar problem are of Celtic descent. Wed Apr 30 18:50:13 -0700 2008 3645041 172760 fromagina 2 3651556 OMG! Thanks for writing about the wheat grass juice, I don't have celiacs but I don't break down wheat, my doc says avoid it like the plague. However, I was informed by more than one person that wheat grass was supposed to be safe, even a naturopath claimed this was so. I tried this and I was so ill, I felt wretched from head to toe, someone had the nerve to tell me it's because I was detoxing too quickly. There's no way within 10 minutes a body can detox enough to cause the dizziness, vomitting, heart palpatations and major cramping I went through. I agree with the enzymes, every now & again I eat a cupcake & man do I pay for it, enzymes would be a God send! Fri May 02 15:43:22 -0700 2008 3645170 185126 nutmegpinch 1 3645958 I wouldn't trust it. Seems like a waste of money and I'm gluten-free. I was never tested for celiac but feel better gf so continue to eat that way. Thu May 01 05:28:31 -0700 2008 3645041 169792 lgss 2 3646333 Maybe the good news is that the scientific community is beginning to recognize that large segments of the human population have problems with wheat. I was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis from childhood until there actually was a test for RA; then I got white-coated shrugs re. my fluxuating joint inflammation. A friend suggested an elimination diet and I first tried eliminating wheat and milk. After two weeks I was walking without a walker for the first time in a few years. One piece of toast and within hours the inflammation returned. More shrugging physicians. Finally, after 13 wheat-free years my MD says "Oh yes, you have the non-celiac inability to digest wheat-sugar common to Northern Europeans"; this he probably saw on Oprah or something. Several friends of Japanese descent have eliminated wheat and are finally without their life-long sinus problems. Instead of de-glutenizing wheat.. why aren't researchers seeking grants to pin down these intolerances to a widely-used grain? There are a whole bunch of us who would benefit! I can't see any benefit to a de-glutenized wheat when rice and other gluten-free grains are available in so many delicious forms. Thu May 01 08:03:27 -0700 2008 3645958 172760 fromagina 3 3646708 Can you eat amaranth or quinoa? You can make flour from amaranth that tastes great...and there is protein and amino acids in amaranth. Some people say kamut is ok celiac, but I've heard it is not. I would NEVER eat anything that's been genetically altered, IMO. With the current trend in heirloom plants and organic farming, I'm surprised. Thu May 01 09:56:47 -0700 2008 3646333 159354 sommrluv 3 3646787 Yeah, I'm of Asian descent and have realized that I have a slight intolerance to gluten which I only discovered through an elimination diet. It is not just celiac disease, which remains underdiagnosed. I think there are a lot of people with gluten intolerance who just don't realize it. I've known many, many people who discovered their intolerance when I had them go on an elimination diet. I minimize my gluten intake but have some every so often so my body doesn't get too sensitive to it because it's not a pretty sight what happens when I ingest gluten after not having ANY for a while. I get cramps, diarrhea, my body swells up, my throat gets tickly, my eyes start to water and get red. I suppose I can be extremely vigilant and furiously avoid gluten. But that means I can't take part in some of my favorite foods and it will be a bitch to eat Asian food out as gluten is in soy sauce. And I realize how fortunate I am that I don't have celiac because those people must be vigilant for their entire lives. Thu May 01 10:13:32 -0700 2008 3646333 10763 Miss Needle 4 3651564 You can get whaet-free Tamari which is excellent in the health food stores, some super markets are carrying it now too. Fri May 02 15:46:11 -0700 2008 3646787 185126 nutmegpinch 5 3651584 Yeah, that's what I use at home. But I can't expect Asian restaurants to use it when I go out. And I refuse to just eat out at "health" food places. As I only have one true allergy (which I carry an epipen for) I like the flexibility of choosing a restaurant by my tongue. But for many people they need to be really cautious and eating out for them can be the biggest headache until they have mastered the system. Fri May 02 15:51:47 -0700 2008 3651564 10763 Miss Needle 3 3647288 I'm sure that there are researchers working on treating various forms of wheat intolerance, but that's completely different branch of science. If these folks weren't working on GMO wheat, they'd be working on some other GMO project, not medical research. Thu May 01 12:03:46 -0700 2008 3646333 138816 jlafler 1 3647285 I'm with Fromagina on this one -- I don't see the point. There are plenty of gluten-free alternatives to wheat, and removing gluten from wheat would remove a lot of what makes wheat useful in the first place (at least to those of us who can eat it). And the issue of gluten as a binder and filler in non-food items is a complete non-sequitur, since creating a gluten-free wheat isn't going to stop gluten from being used in this way. Thu May 01 12:02:34 -0700 2008 3645041 138816 jlafler 1 3647789 Gee, what's the point? Other than science for the sake of science, any wheat variety that would be developed would be grown in such small quantities, that the specialty products made from it would be very expensive and likely reach very few people. As most of the posters have said, those with gluten intolerances have learned to avoid gluten-containing products without enormous problems, or the range of products is so wide that they wouldn't be affected by the development of a special gluten-free strain of wheat. I agree that there is a better use for research dollars. There might be some serendipitous discovery, but that hardly justifies the expenditure when there are so many other more pressing areas that might yield greater benefits for wider populations. Thu May 01 13:54:45 -0700 2008 3645041 32444 MakingSense 2 3648094 Actually, the simple gene splice would allow for normal seed multiplication and normal crop production without any extra real cost, the result not being a hybrid. I'm surprised at the responses so far. Personally I enjoy gluten-containing foods. Thu May 01 15:12:00 -0700 2008 3647789 36661 Sam Fujisaka 3 3648225 I'm with you. I think most of my wheat consumption is in good bread which needs gluten. Pasta too. Even my favorite White Lily for biscuits and cakes is still 4%. I guess I could use this stuff to make roux, fried chicken, etc. but they'd never make up their R&D money from those uses Nah. Still a thumbs down. Too much stuff in the grocery store already. Thu May 01 15:54:19 -0700 2008 3648094 32444 MakingSense 4 3648487 The funding is to a public institution (WSU) with outputs to be part of the public domain. The key part of the research, isolating the "... lysine-rich barley mutant that lacks gliadin, the gluten component that triggers the disease... [and] identify the mutation and use this to make gluten-free wheat varieties that are also rich in the essential amino acid lysine." should be fairly straightforward. I'm highly allergic to shellfish and would LOVE to eat a GM modified crab, lobster, or shrimp that wouldn't kill me! [Kidding because of the much greater complexity of shellfish, but I wish I could eat such stuff without my lungs swelling shut and death to follow] Thu May 01 17:25:29 -0700 2008 3648225 36661 Sam Fujisaka 5 3648571 this is a really interesting thread. i prepare and/or outsource a lot of special-diet & restricted-diet food for customers, and imo, the gluten-free folks are/can be a lot like deaf community folks after a while. "hey we're fine, we've adapted, we have our culture, and if you gave us back an ability at this point we wouldn't take it because we can appreciate our lives this way, we enjoy our strong & supportive community." there is a pride in the difference-- and the struggle that accompanies it, and this should be recognized as well. lots of people who can eat anything they please don't get it. as much as i personally like the culinary heritage and versatility of wheat-based food products, and i myself enjoy eating them, i think there is room for everything. it's possible to have a very restricted diet and yet be a committed foodie/cook/chowhound/whatever. like you, Sam, dh has a shellfish allergy, and sometimes it's like a sick joke that at work he must prepare foods he can't eat or taste for customers, or that he doesn't get to experience or share food i order in restaurants. we have joked about buying him a number of black-market epi pens, shooting him up before&after, and ordering him a lobster. i think it would be cool to come up with technology that would get rid of suffering that comes from severe allergies, but, to me-- it makes more sense to treat the people-- rather than genetically modify a zillion offending food substances. my point of reference: my mom used to give herself daily allergy injections and was partially disabled and unable to work full-time due to severe allergies, then she got an operation on her skull, and is doing much better now, though she is still medicated and will be her whole life. i am not insensitive to the issue of food allergies/restrictions, in other words. Thu May 01 18:04:37 -0700 2008 3648487 46030 soupkitten 6 3648902 Gads, soupkitten, a person who understands the life of cooks who can't eat some things and who have to have an epipen even for touching stuff we cook for others! Your insight re: the response, "hey we're fine, we've adapted, we have our culture, and if you gave us back an ability at this point we wouldn't take it because we can appreciate our lives this way, we enjoy our strong & supportive community." is really illuminating. I hadn't thought of that, but see it in the responses. Thanks! But now I have something for you and DH: Epipens are just adenaline. When I was last in the US (Vermont), I went to a walk-in clinic, consulted, got a three Epipens for $210, and a consultancy bill for $400. Here I talked to my doctora, Ingrid. Turns out an ampule of adrenaline ("adrenalina") and a syringe (a small one for insulin) is the same thing (epiphren = adenaline), costs NOTHING and is perfect if you're confident in loading and shooting yourself IM quickly when needed. I now carry both an epipen and an ampule - syringe combo packed in a used (Yes!) epipen container. Thu May 01 20:25:33 -0700 2008 3648571 36661 Sam Fujisaka 4 3648835 Wouldn't take much to make it back -- $800K isn't very much money, especially for a global commodity. Thu May 01 19:52:00 -0700 2008 3648225 10159 Ruth Lafler 5 3648908 The grant is small and the impacts could be huge! More reason why I 've been surprised with the responses. If I could eat all seafood without death following, I'd be really happy! Thu May 01 20:28:48 -0700 2008 3648835 36661 Sam Fujisaka 3 3648228 Gluten is what holds wheat (and oats, barley, rye, spelt, triticale) and products made from them together, so they can't just remove the gluten without adding something to hold them together. Maybe they'll splice in a xanthan gum gene? Thu May 01 15:54:52 -0700 2008 3648094 169792 lgss 4 3649027 Exactly. Thu May 01 21:56:48 -0700 2008 3648228 138816 jlafler 1 3648891 While I do not have any allergy to gluten that I am aware of, and enjoy many foods containing gluten, I applaud the NIH and scientific community for recognizing the growing issue of human intolerances to basic foods. It seems that the incidence of wayward immune system responses, and their connection to food triggers, are occurring at a rapidly-increasing rate. I, too, tend to be suspicious of much of the so-called advances made by scientists and biotechnology. I don't need a seedless watermelon. However, it is good to hear that research and development funds are going toward making life more enjoyable for all, rather than merely more profitable for some. Thu May 01 20:22:05 -0700 2008 3645041 102095 vvvindaloo 2 3648999 vvv, thanks! I tossed the issue out for all of us, expected the other responses above, but am, ofcourse, personally in full agreement with you reply. Does this mean I have to give up my asinine Indian accent? Thu May 01 21:23:45 -0700 2008 3648891 36661 Sam Fujisaka 3 3649013 Nah, I don't mind the Indian bit- as long as I can keep imagining you as Iron Chef Mr. Miyagi :) It's very entertaining. But could you possibly picture me as an Indian woman, though, instead of as a man? Thanks ;) Thu May 01 21:41:19 -0700 2008 3648999 102095 vvvindaloo 4 3649022 Namaste, most esteemed VV, I am (while moving head from side to side in ways that no European or North American can do) making sincerest apology, but already am seeing you for long time as Indian woman! Perhaps we--you and your most kind Sir and my humble self--are meeting after next monsoon and harvest! Thu May 01 21:54:24 -0700 2008 3649013 36661 Sam Fujisaka 5 3649146 Oye! Chak de fatte, Sam! (Punjabi for "full steam ahead"). Thu May 01 23:35:16 -0700 2008 3649022 102095 vvvindaloo 1 3649021 I guess I should make clear that I'm not anti-GMO on principle. (It would be hypocritical in the extreme, since the insulin I take -- and I think all or virtually all insulin now manufactured in the U.S. -- is made using e. coli that have been genetically modified to produce insulin that's chemically identical to human insulin. I am exceedingly grateful for this, since it means I don't have to take cow or pig insulin, which are not as compatible with human metabolism.) I'm not gluten or wheat intolerant, so it's not really my issue, but I have had a number of friends who can't eat gluten, so I'm familiar with what it's like. The biggest problem is that gluten is in hidden lots of non-obvious places as a binder (as mentioned above), and developing a new variety of gluten-free wheat won't do anything to change that. The other big issue is that gluten is what gives bread and other baked goods most of their structure and texture, and without it you have to do a lot of fiddling to make baked goods appetizing. Again, gluten-free wheat wouldn't help solve that problem. To sum up, I think the issue with people's lack of enthusiasm about this particular product is that it doesn't look like it will solve the main problems that gluten intolerant people face. I don't think it's a bad thing to do, it just doesn't seem terribly useful. Maybe I'm missing something. Thu May 01 21:52:11 -0700 2008 3645041 138816 jlafler 1 3649802 Sam, this is an interesting thread. My problem with the genetic modification involved has to do with resulting plant patents. I think there are some serious moral issues shaping up--particularly when one company holds the patent on seeds and modifies them so that the plants need fertilizers also produced by that company. Beyond that, I hope that testing would be done for environmental impact. Still, in some ways I don't see the point in modifying wheat to eliminate gluten. And I wish there were more research on the toxic effects of grain in general, including sensitivity to alkaloids they contain. The Weston A. Price Foundation has a few papers out (granted "high divulgation" popular papers) that cite research on the relationship between celiac sprue and wheat. Two studies seem to indicate that fermentation of gluten products by lactobacteria alters both the gluten strands and the toxins in the wheat so that celiac sprue patients are able to tolerate it. So perhaps we also need more research on methods of food preparation and their effects on chemical make up of food stuffs. Fri May 02 08:23:04 -0700 2008 3645041 53369 Father Kitchen 2 3649889 Hey FK! Again, grants to public institutions like WSU (or to international not for profit organizations like mine) result in no patents, but in goods for the public domain. There are no plants that respond to only one company's fertilizer. Testing for environmental impact--especially for gene cross-over from GM to other plants is globally very, very strict and controlled. Again, my only personal point of camparison is that I wish there were a way that I could eat shellfish. I would have thought that gluten intolerant people would like to eat what they otherwise couldn't. Fri May 02 08:42:08 -0700 2008 3649802 36661 Sam Fujisaka 3 3649927 Let's put it this way: what gluten-intolerant people can't eat is gluten. Creating gluten-free wheat will not enable them to eat gluten. Fri May 02 08:49:55 -0700 2008 3649889 138816 jlafler 3 3657698 Sam, this is a little off topic but I wanted to clarify that public institutions (at least in the U.S.) can and do hold patents. I work at a large, state run university in a scientific field; our university has a decent patent portfolio. The distribution of any royalties resulting from those patents between the original granting agency, the university, the department and the principal investigator are subject to the terms of the grant and university policy. Mon May 05 09:49:23 -0700 2008 3649889 161386 kmcarr 4 3658315 Thank you. I didn't know that. The international ag research institutes and many of our national partners don't hold patents; I mistakenly thought the same was true for US public institutions. Mon May 05 12:06:12 -0700 2008 3657698 36661 Sam Fujisaka 5 3673632 "The distribution of any royalties resulting from those patents between the original granting agency, the university, the department and the principal investigator..." and any private companies/collaborators/partners/investors, as well, right? I was so surprised when, at the beginning of grad school, in a bio program, I had to sign something saying I gave up all rights to anything I discovered/invented while a student to the school. Fri May 09 18:51:19 -0700 2008 3658315 41864 optimal forager 6 3673657 o p, that is a slightly different issue: intellectual property rights are maintained by universities and funding agencies. Imagine the U providing you with full support and labs and dorm, you develop the best new junk food, sell it to the highest bidder... Fri May 09 19:07:22 -0700 2008 3673632 36661 Sam Fujisaka 1 3650128 While I personally don't have celiac disease, my little sister does. I am happy with grants like these that make the public more aware of the disease as well as try to use technology to make their lives a little easier. I guess I am hoping that sometime in the future my little sister can go to a restaurant with her friends and not only will the restaurant know what she is allergic to, but will have something like this gluten-free wheat that they can substitute into a dish. That way she can be gluten free and enjoy a social meal. Right now she is only 4 years old, but her disease already impacts where we decide to eat. It is no fun for her to go to some restaurants that put gluten in almost everything that a 4 year old might want to eat. So we end up going to places that offer a gluten free option. Even now, she knows she is different and I can only imagine that when she gets older it is going to be harder to avoid gluten, especially when all her friends are eating bread, cake, etc. I understand many of the adults here are okay with their gluten-free lifestyle and I think is great. However, there are many children who have to be on a gluten-free diet and I think something like this would help a lot of them. Fri May 02 09:37:38 -0700 2008 3645041 12410 glazebrookgirl 2 3650189 The reason why so many people are balking at this idea is that wheat without gluten will not behave as wheat should. So you probably won't be able to make your sister's birthday cakes and breads with this "gluten-free" wheat. If you are not aware of them, you guys should look into Pamela's products for your sister. They are a line of gluten-free items, and contains things from pancake mixes to chocolate brownies. http://pamelasproducts.com/ Fri May 02 09:49:53 -0700 2008 3650128 10763 Miss Needle 3 3651201 Dan Lepard in his recent book--I think it's called Handmade Bread--has a recipe for Swedish 100% rye bread that uses a special technique to compensate for the low gluten content of the rye. Water at a simmering point is added to the flour to gelatinize the starches. Starch gels provide most of the strength of a rye crumb. By doing this, it is possible to produce a rye bread that is fairly light without the addition of wheat. I want to try the technique with a low-gluten local flour from Maryland's Eastern Shore. I should think it might work with gluten-free wheat flours to provide a leavened bread without the addition of gums. Fri May 02 13:34:54 -0700 2008 3650189 53369 Father Kitchen 3 3651444 Yeah, we use Pamela's and its great for most things, but for some of the baked goods, it is just not the same. Fri May 02 14:57:38 -0700 2008 3650189 12410 glazebrookgirl 1 3650173 Okay, I'm going to try one more time. I don't think anybody here has said that they like their gluten-free lifestyle just fine and don't want to change it. I think they're saying that gluten-free wheat won't do anything to solve the major problems of gluten-intolerance. That's certainly what I'm saying -- though, again, I'm not gluten-intolerant. It's like artificial sweeteners for diabetics. They allow you to eat sweets, but only by removing the very thing that makes you want to eat them. People think "diabetics must be so happy that there are all these artificial sweeteners, so they can eat candy and ice cream." I think "yuck." (Besides which, regular sugar is really okay, in small amounts, for most diabetics.) How would gluten-free wheat be used? What would you do with it? What could you do with it that can't be done with grains that are naturally gluten-free? Fri May 02 09:46:34 -0700 2008 3645041 138816 jlafler 2 3650200 I googled the news article that Sam was referring to and it looks as though scientists might be able to take a particular part out of the wheat which would make it gluten free but would still have all the baking properties of wheat. To me, I guess that means that you would be able to make things with this wheat and it would respond exactly like normal wheat. To me, this is great, because no disrespect to all the people who make gluten-free stuff, but it never tastes as good as the "real thing". I've had gluten free pizza dough, gluten free cinnamon rolls, gluten free pasta, etc. All of them are missing the mouthfeel and texture of wheat. So I guess it remains to be seen if this can actually be accomplished. Article: http://cahnrsnews.wsu.edu/reportertools/news/2008/diter-wheat-2008-04.html And I totally agree that artificial sweeteners are gross, so this new wheat would hopefully retain the taste of wheat, just without the gluten. But, of course, it is all speculation at this point. Fri May 02 09:52:26 -0700 2008 3650173 12410 glazebrookgirl 3 3650295 Ah, okay. I see I have misunderstood. This wasn't clear from the portion quoted in the OP or from any of the subsequent discussion. It should have been the lede! If it tastes like wheat, I'm sure a lot of gluten-intolerant people will be happy to have it. As you say, gluten-free versions of wheat-based baked goods are never very good, and it takes a lot of effort to make them even minimally appealing. I still think the issue of gluten being used as a binder is a red herring, though, since this won't eliminate the need to avoid gluten, which, as we keep noting, is everywhere. Fri May 02 10:16:10 -0700 2008 3650200 138816 jlafler 4 3650335 You are right about gluten as a binder. My little sister had a reaction from that hand sanitizing gel, which isn't even labeled as having gluten. While such advances as gluten-free wheat are nice, there is still much work to be done. Labeling of ingredients must be stricter and more people need to be educated as to what celiac disease is. Fri May 02 10:25:02 -0700 2008 3650295 12410 glazebrookgirl 5 3650473 Yes, I haven't read that part about the gluten-free wheat acting like regular wheat -- that's makes a huge impact on whether this idea is viable. I suppose it can be quite a benefit to those with celiac. The problem with celiac disease is that it is still not well understood by people ("experts" included). There's been research indicating that people with celiac have increased risks for cancer, in spite of adhering to a gluten-free diet - why? People aren't sure. Some people think it's because gluten-free diets tend to have more fat than regular diets. So I think there are more things involved that just the simple gluten factor. There's still a lot more research to be done on this disease. Fri May 02 10:59:10 -0700 2008 3650335 10763 Miss Needle 6 3650728 Sorry, all. I thought it was understood that the work was not to make barley out of wheat, but to get rid of the gliadin, the gluten component that triggers the disease. Fri May 02 11:52:27 -0700 2008 3650473 36661 Sam Fujisaka 7 3650802 Well, I understand that now. :-) I think I (and others) didn't realize you could remove the gliadin and still have a compound that acts like gluten. It seems to me that it would be easier to understand (if possibly less accurate) to say that they're removing the gliadin from the gluten, rather than to say they're removing the gluten from the wheat. Or you could say that they're replacing the gluten with something that's very similar to gluten, except that it lacks the gliadin. Fri May 02 12:08:45 -0700 2008 3650728 138816 jlafler 7 3651524 Hey, Sam, what disease? One of the things that this thread illustrates is the difficulty of reporting scientific research to the general public. The posters here are smarter than the average bears, with knowledge of both gluten-intolerance and celiac, and also the culinary background to know how gluten acts in breads and where it is found in other products. And still, there is confusion!!!! Aaaggghhh!!! General assignment reporters for the media doing a quick 30-second piece on this grant can give a totally different impression from reality. Readers of newspapers and magazine stories get distilled versions that may distort the benefits. Lord knows what will pop up on Google when the misinformation begins to appear from the pseudo-scientists. I think this points up the difficulties that we see all the time in debates about all types of science. Thanks for keeping us on track, Sam. Fri May 02 15:33:51 -0700 2008 3650728 32444 MakingSense 8 3651596 Thank you. TheCropBiotech Update is targeted towards scientists, but with entries written largely by those who submit them. I'm always interested in the wide range of familiarity and comfort with science based topics on the part of fellow Hounds. You and several others help me to not despair regarding science education in the US. But I hope its not just old geezers (and geezerettes) like me who are really uncomfortable with misinformation. Fri May 02 15:57:28 -0700 2008 3651524 36661 Sam Fujisaka 9 3651699 I'm a little confused about what you're saying here. Exactly what misinformation are you talking about? Look. You didn't quote the part of the article that explicitly states that the modified wheat would act like regular wheat for baking purposes. You didn't provide a link to the article. You didn't respond to this comment: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/514757#3648228 or any one of several others that made it crystal clear what the confusion was about. Looking at the OP, I'm not even sure that the crucial information is there, even given adequate knowledge of organic chemistry and food science. I know that lysine is an essential amino acid (e.g. one that we need to function, but that our bodies don't manufacture, meaning that we need to get it from food sources), and I know that proteins are made up of amino acids. I also know that gluten is a protein, and a little bit about its role in baking (whether you develop the gluten or not being the key to getting the texture right, depending on what you're making). But none of that tells me that lysine (apparently) is what gives gluten its wonderful properties. Or is it? I still don't know. Sorry if I seem ticked off, but I don't like the implication that the reason I didn't understand was that my science education is lacking. It probably is lacking, but I think the main reason I didn't understand was that I wasn't given all the relevant information. Fri May 02 16:36:53 -0700 2008 3651596 138816 jlafler 10 3651922 Another sincerest apology! I again apologize for the incomplete OP. I made some unwarrented assumptions regarding interpretation of the note. My response regarding "misinformation" was solely to MS and was in reference to the context she provided (Please check upthread). The context in my last reply had more to do with the general issue of Hounds dealing with science based discussions. I completely agreed with your last two posts (12:16 and 2:08 pm) and therefore did not reply to them. I also certainly refer to you when I say, "You and several others help me to not despair regarding science education in the US". Barring all of that, what? Sepuku on my part? Fri May 02 18:16:18 -0700 2008 3651699 36661 Sam Fujisaka 11 3651951 Thanks. I sentence you to three lashes with a wet noodle. Fri May 02 18:26:43 -0700 2008 3651922 138816 jlafler 12 3652057 A wheat noodle? sorry, couldn't resist! :))) Fri May 02 19:14:34 -0700 2008 3651951 102095 vvvindaloo 10 3652127 This is exactly the problem. Miscommunication. Sam probably thought that he gave enough general information to a group that is generally better informed than the American public at large to get an overall general opinion on the CONCEPT of the research. He may well have not been looking for a whole bunch of fine detail or intricate debate. What was given in the OP is the type of material that is often included in media releases. I work with the media and I can tell you what happens. A local rag writes the story as: Gluten-free bread may be at your corner bakery soon! Scientists at WSU have been awarded a major grant yada yada raba daba to develop a gluten-free wheat. They previously discovered a mutant barley which is free from gluten and does not trigger reactions in those with celiac disease. They are hoping to utilize the same mutation in the new strain of wheat which can be used in medicines, vitamins and paper. Their partner is local biotechnology firm... What happened to the detail???? Do you know how that newspaper story turns up on Google? People start to quote THAT as the FACT. Do you know how this CH thread shows up on Google? That becomes source material. All of the original material is LOST. There may be some errors in this thread and there is certainly some "speculation." What YOU know or don't know isn't that important beyond giving you the ability to critically evaluate information. Where the public is ill-served is the way information is being disseminated. It's called "collateral misinformation" and it's more prevalent than facts these days. Fri May 02 19:51:26 -0700 2008 3651699 32444 MakingSense 11 3653178 You know, I think my little temper fit above was really a way to dodge thinking about this issue, because it drives me NUTS!!!!! This kind of thing is why I completely quit reading political blogs a couple of months ago -- too much "collateral misinformation" (good term) and too much drive-by idiocy. Chowhound is a LOT better, but of course far from perfect. Sat May 03 10:47:36 -0700 2008 3652127 138816 jlafler 3 3652992 Wheat intolerance, as I mentioned above, isn't just restricted to a gluten intolerance..it's likely the sugars are what contribute to the taste of "the real thing" but that doesn't help me! Trust me, I don't suffer on a wheat-free diet. I've learned the nuances of rice flour vs. rice powder vs sweet rice flour in making cakes, scones, cookies, and dumplings. My rice flour/potato starch Pineapple Upsidedown Cake has won taste tests against the identical recipe using wheat flour. Using the simple substitution of 2 cups rice flour + 1 cup corn or potato starch + 1 tsp. xanthan gum for 3 cups wheat flour in cake recipes, I make lovely cakes. A gluten-free wheat flour isn't going to help me! Sat May 03 09:26:06 -0700 2008 3650200 172760 fromagina 4 3663312 Hi Fromagina- I'm so glad you posted about this. I know no one else with a sensitivty like this--except me!! I'm 99% certain that I have a sensitivity to wheat that is not celiac. I eat wheat and my knees ache for days: enough to make me think twice about going upstairs, etc.). A week or so with no wheat and my knees are fine. Is there a name for this sensitivty/allergy and where can I learn more? Many, many thanks!! SeaSide Tue May 06 18:46:11 -0700 2008 3652992 18253 SeaSide Tomato 1 3660207 Sam, on a broader note in reference to modified crops: What steps are taken to provide the funding and the arable land and the curators/cultivators of the ancestral gene pools? (Such as the voluntary network of Seed Savers, etc.). Are these grants beginning to set aside funds as mitigation for annual growing of the earliest varieties with the most genetic plasticity to fall back on in the future? Are these kinds of sustainability issues beginning to be addressed and backed with a portion of the overall funding? Mon May 05 21:49:32 -0700 2008 3645041 17562 FoodFuser 2 3660871 There has long been a lot going on. Gene banks were created in the mid-60s along with the international (and internationally funded) ag centers, which have always had genetic conservation as one of several objectives. The different centers have also employed collectors of wild relatives (of major crops) to provide additional genetic resources. One of the more recent centers (1980s?) was the International Plant Genetic Resources Institute (IPGRI) now known as Bioversity (check out their site). All gene banks store genetic resources, planting them out as needed. One system-wide program uses stored materials and traditional breeding to try to improve drought tolerance in major crops; another seeks to improve the micronutrient content of major crops--also using traditional breeding methods. Unfortunately, traditional landraces do not necessarily have, "the most genetic plasticity to fall back on in the future". They are often adapted to site-specific conditions and do have specific desired consumer characteristics. Work on sustainability issues also started in the 60s, with better funding then than now. Tue May 06 07:27:47 -0700 2008 3660207 36661 Sam Fujisaka 3 3666518 Thanks for the tip. http://www.bioversityinternational.org/Themes/Genebanks/index.asp Wed May 07 17:17:33 -0700 2008 3660871 17562 FoodFuser