514347 Tue Apr 29 17:10:03 -0700 2008 18 34 Wine 0 3641431 We were at a wedding reception Saturday night and they served Marquis Philip Shiraz, which we liked for the big fruityness, but it left a deep layer of sludge in the bottom of the glass, and chunks hanging on the side. I've never ever had this happen before, but I am not all that well versed in the ways of wine. So, tell me about this. Should the host have decanted this first? How would you do that for over 200 guests? It was a lovely wedding and reception, with seven or eight wines available, all carefully chosen by the father, so I'm not meaning to be critical or anything, just curious. Tue Apr 29 17:10:04 -0700 2008 10580 Betty 1 3641616 Some wine is filtered and fined, some is not. The process of fining is using a substance (usually egg whites) to bind with stray proteins and is used to clarify wine. Sediment consists of tiny grape tissue pieces and leftover yeast lees (lees=dead yeast cells). None of this is a problem. It's a decision that a winemaker makes or doesn't. Crystals that form are tartrates (tartaric acid--thus the bitter acidic taste). Tartrates often form in white wines because they have been chilled too fast and destabilized--i.e., in the freezer instead of the fridge. Decanting helps with reds. Chill-induced tartrates of whites form in the glass so decanting doesn't help. Decanting is, as you pointed out, impractical in a party situation. It can be unpleasant to get a mouthful, but there really isn't anything indicative of low quality etc. about sediment. Some would argue the opposite. It's one of those things, though, that can be confusing and even upsetting to consumers as you illustrate. I think it's terrific that you kept an open mind! Tue Apr 29 18:12:26 -0700 2008 3641431 39731 Sallie 1 3641891 Unfiltered wine is often an indication of higher quality wine. I personally see nothing wrong with having some of this sendiment collecting at the bottom of my final glass. I would never decant in order to get rid off it - no matter if entertaining 200 guests or only 2 ;) Tue Apr 29 20:18:05 -0700 2008 3641431 118541 olasek 1 3642178 Your experience reflects a poor job by the server. Your glass was most likely filled from a bottle that was nearly finished, if not completely finished, by your glass. If there was as much sediment as you indicate in your glass it was plainly visible in the bottle on its way out. One should never pour sediment into a glass of wine. Pouring a wine that contains a lot of sediment calls for slowing the pour as the bottle nears empty and twisting the bottle to move the sediment away from the wine and to the side or top of the bottle in order to avoid exactly what occurred with your glass. Not likely to happen at most weddings unless it's been addressed prior to the event. I wouldn't have chosen to serve such a wine unless this was addressed. If not decanting, pouring the last glass from each bottle through a funnel w/strainer would have done the trick with little hassle. Tue Apr 29 23:29:51 -0700 2008 3641431 15817 ecustard 2 3644467 >> Your experience reflects a poor job by the server. I would never blame anybody for that, specially not during a wedding reception with 200 guests where people often help themselves. Such sediment is often hard to see and unless you anticipate it and are extra careful is hard to prevent to get out of the bottle. If I were in a $100 per plate restaurant maybe I would expect this level of attention to detail and even if it happens no real harm is done, the stuff sinks to the bottom. Wed Apr 30 14:41:30 -0700 2008 3642178 118541 olasek 3 3645231 Thanks everybody, I think the serving issue is probably what happened. We didn't serve ourselves, there were two tended wine bars. I grow and process about 40 lbs of grapes from my garden every year, although I've never made wine, so I was familiar with the distinctive remains of grape bits, having strained a ton of it when making jelly, I'd just never run into it in wine. Wed Apr 30 19:11:02 -0700 2008 3644467 10580 Betty 3 3649062 Olasek, did you even read the original post? Hard to see? "...it left a deep layer of sludge in the bottom of the glass, and chunks hanging on the side." Doesn't matter what level of restaurant or catering hall it's at, that's poor service. A gritty glass of wine is harm done--it's a wasted.glass of wine, and probably many more. Thu May 01 22:23:41 -0700 2008 3644467 15817 ecustard 4 3650612 I have done this to myself many times so I guess I should complain for poor service. And never was it a wasted glass of wine, not even close, lets not get into gross exaggeration. We all love wine here but lets not get paranoid about it. Fri May 02 11:27:26 -0700 2008 3649062 118541 olasek 5 3654007 I'll suggest once again that you refer to the original post: "...it left a deep layer of sludge in the bottom of the glass, and chunks hanging on the side." My response to that is not in any way a gross exaggeration, nor is it paranoid--that's your gross exaggeration. I, too, have poured myself such a glass, but I don't serve wine for a living and charge people for it. The original poster wasn't talkiing about a small amount of sediment. A "deep layer" of sludge IS a wasted glass of wine. Unless you like drinking sludge.. Sat May 03 17:37:06 -0700 2008 3650612 15817 ecustard 6 3654524 I know very well how much sediment can be found in a typical bottle of unfined/unfiltered wine no matter if someone says "deep layer" or "mountain of sediment" or "Everest of sediment" or "bucket of sludge". People use imprecise, hyperbolic expressions every day. Yes, I drink sludge, rivers of sludge. Yes, absolutely paranoid, end of the story. Sun May 04 01:26:26 -0700 2008 3654007 118541 olasek 7 3654562 I would never question your knowledge of sediment volume in a typical bottle of unfiltered wine. According to this post you drink rivers of sediment. I most certainly do not have your depth of expertise in this regard. Perhaps in some way to your perception I appear paranoid, but you seem to be a bit touchy yourself. This dialog began with a simple question about an issue surrounding a single glass of wine, a question that to me was hyperbole-free. Your opinion differed from mine, and rather than simply offer your opinion you chose instead to denigrate my response as well. I believe the original question has long ago been answered sufficiently. Bill Hunt sums it up quite well below. Sun May 04 02:55:48 -0700 2008 3654524 15817 ecustard 1 3653907 Betty, You have gotten the high points in the replies. The sediment will not hurt you, though the grittiness can be unplesant and the sight is not that appealing. There is also an often "bitter" element imparted by the sediment. At an event, as you describe, it is probably better to choose a wine less likely to throw sediment. It is impractical to decant this quantity of wine, especially as it will be served over the course of the event, and not to accompany one particular course. I've attended events where several wines were decanted for a group of about 1000, but these were served at a specific time, and then only. If this wine was poured by servers, and not from an open table (as one poster speculated), a bit of training of the server(s) might have helped cut down on the problem - pour only about 3/4 - 7/8 of the bottle and be slow and careful. Still, sediment can, and will, happen. When we have large catered events, I talk about sediment, to the servers, but it still gets out. Minimizing it, is about all one can do. Hunt Sat May 03 16:37:05 -0700 2008 3641431 11329 Bill Hunt 2 4074702 "Unfiltered wine is often an indication of higher quality wine."<--this is BS. "Your experience reflects a poor job by the server."<--this is absolutely correct. olasek, are you new to the world of wine? end of this story, for sure. Wed Oct 01 11:24:46 -0700 2008 3653907 122578 TBird 3 4074957 Winemakers who are careless sometimes have to sterile-filter their wine before bottling. Winemakers who are clean and don't make mistakes never have to sterile-filter their wine before bottling. You cannot bottle and age a wine that has been unfiltered without having great confidence in its quality. However, a filtered wine is not necessarily a bad thing, though usually subtle components of the wine are lost in the process. "Unfiltered and unfined" on the back label of a wine indicates a few things: 1) the winemaker is confident in his or her sanitation practices 2) the winemaker is confident in his or her handling of ph through growing the fruit or through adjustment in the winery 3) the winemaker uses good equipment that treats the seeds and fruit gently throughout the process 4) the winemaker didn't squeeze every last drop out of the pomace to maximize production at the expense of quality Wed Oct 01 13:06:39 -0700 2008 4074702 17221 SteveG 4 4077423 the winemaker can be as confident as he wants, but that NEVER guarantees,or even comes close percentage wise, the statement "Unfiltered wine is often an indication of higher quality wine"...that's all i meant. Thu Oct 02 12:46:29 -0700 2008 4074957 122578 TBird 5 4078540 I'd guess that most of the wine drinkers on this board are not drinking unfiltered wines that are of poor quality. Rather, unfiltered, in context on this board, means the wine was not cold-stablized, not fined or filtered, and the winemaker chose not to filter because of the drop-off in flavor. In the wedding situation above, the Marquis Philips Shiraz has a long history of throwing lots of sediment. It was not an appropriate selection for serving a large group, and for that, I fault the person who chose the wine when it was obvious that sediment was such a problem. Perhaps the wine was unfamiliar to the wedding couple (they should have opened and drunk a bottle), or unfamiliar to the caterer (it shouldn't have been), but this wine should never have been served. Of course, I wonder why this Aussie Winery continues to make their Shiraz this way -- unfiltered and throwing lots -- lots -- of sediment. Thu Oct 02 22:05:39 -0700 2008 4077423 18222 maria lorraine 6 4078626 My guess would be that the wine was transported to the wedding, and the jostling mixed the sediment well into the wine. At that stage, decanting won't work (unless you have a centrifuge handy, but the results afterward may be doubtful). I agree with Maria - the caterer should have been sharp enough to notice this, but unless they are really an outfit that pays attention to such details, such things will happen. Fri Oct 03 00:17:45 -0700 2008 4078540 224157 girobike 7 4078693 Hey now that's a product idea! A centrifuge for caterers would be pretty feasible actually. Fri Oct 03 02:23:31 -0700 2008 4078626 177724 tmso 8 4078696 Make sure it can hold multiple bottles to spin to reduce turnaround time. A flat roulette wheel setup would work fine! Fri Oct 03 02:29:57 -0700 2008 4078693 224157 girobike