Shanghai- and Beijing-style food

[mdg]

My wife and I will be traveling to China for the first time as part of a large concert tour group performing in Shanghai and Beijing this summer prior to the Olympics. There's a mix of group meals and on-our-own meals in both cities.

Where would be good places to go in the Bay area to get more exposure to good Shanghai- and Beijing-style food before we go? We tend to go to restaurants with a Sichuan, Hunan, Hakka, or Taiwan focus. I'd like to have more experience with Shanghai and Beijing regional food before the trip.

We're in Silicon Valley so restaurants in this area are preferred, but San Francisco is fine for something really special. Menus need to be available in English, either transliterated or translated. Restaurants that avoid offering their specialties to non-Chinese will not be a good match for us.

So far we've tried Everyday Beijing in San Mateo (and enjoyed the Beijing-style dishes more so than the Shandong-style dishes) and we've had XLB at Yank Sing. So we have a long way to go to get chow-ready for this trip. I'm already tracking the Chowhound XLB posts, but more general Shanghai- and Beijing-style recommendations would be great.

Thanks for your suggestions!

Michael

[Humbucker]

Try Shanghai Taste Delight in Mountain View for reasonably good Shanghai cuisine. Be forewarned that it's kind of a dive.

Su Hong in Palo Alto also does some nice Shanghainese dishes, but I believe most of the good stuff is on a chinese-language menu.

[anzu]

Is Shanghai Taste Delight the one by corner of Central and Rengsdorf? If so, I second that rec. If not, I don't know the name of the restaurant, but in that strip mall behind the Shell gas station on that corner (Central and Rengsdorf in MV), there is a really good Shanghai restaurant. Take someone who is Chinese, b/c some of the best dishes I've had was when I didn't do the ordering.

Like there was a dish--I don't know what it's called, but it was sauteed some kind of vegetable that the person ordering said was a "cousin" to bamboo. Whatever it was, it was delish.

[Humbucker]

Shanghai Taste Delight is on El Camino. The one off Rengstorff is Shanghai Family Restaurant. I used to like that place, but we had horrible service and overly oily food the last couple times we went so we won't be returning.

[Melanie Wong]

The owner at Su Hong has always been happy to explain/translate the Shanghainese menu when we've asked. Since live crabs are still in abundance, ask him if crab xiao long bao are available.

Try Shanghai Flavor in Sunnyvale to learn what sheng jian bao are. It's the specialty there, and the only thing that really shines.

[anzu]

Melanie,

I don't know if it's too late for crab season, but are these crab xlb at the Palo Alto or MP Su Hong?

[Melanie Wong]

The Palo Alto location for crab xlb. As far as I know, the Menlo Park store doesn't sell xlb of any stripe.

Oh, yesterday I noticed a Su Hong banner on a site that's undergoing remodeling/construction. There was a phone number but I went by too fast to read /remember it. It's on El Camino across from Trader Vic's and my brother thinks it used to be a Denny's. Hope the Palo Alto 'hounds will keep us posted on what's going on there. With any luck, this will be of the traditional and authentic bent like the Palo Alto one and not the Americanized, take-out genre of Menlo Park.

[anzu]

Heh. Thanks for saving me a trip. I've been to the MP one (dragged by a coworker) once and found it very meh, but then you mentioned crab xlb, so I thought I might give it a second chance and go to try that. Same coworker wants to go there again, but now that I know it's not the one w/ the xlb, I think I'll steer him to another Chinese option (Jade Palace on Cal Ave, perhaps.) Thanks!

[Melanie Wong]

As I mentioned in another thread, Jade Palace has morphed into a Shanghainese restaurant now. The XLB are pretty good, pork and not crab, and this is one of the few places that brought out soup spoons when they're served without my having to ask.

Edited to add: Photos from dinner at Jade Palace on 4/14/2008, post-ownership change.

Xiao long bao,
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2381/2568607742_7faaf6348b.jpg?v=0

Fish filet in wine sauce,
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3145/2568607748_ce3f2246b2.jpg?v=0

Braised pork belly,
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3100/2568607754_fb89a5ce7d.jpg?v=0

Sang chow sticky rice,
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3269/2...

The sticky rice is a holdover from the previous Cantonese owner and not nearly as good as it used to be here. I'd order everything else again, especially the delectable pork belly, but not this one.

[Humbucker]

The Su Hong banner has been on the old Denny's for several months. As far as I can tell, the banner actually doesn't say that Su Hong is moving into that space, but they just worked out a deal where they can hang a banner there that advertises their El Camino Way location. Wierd.

[Melanie Wong]

Ha! Thanks for clearing that up, guess I would have waited a long time for something to happen there. Weird indeed.

[moto]

Michael, if you peregrinations take you to Contra Costa (or to a Pittsburg/Baypoint line BART stop) look up the numerous posts on Lily's House in Lafayette, which is about a five minute walk from the Bart station.

[Melanie Wong]

It would be fun to try LIly's House, then check out Liu Bo Long Restaurant in Shanghai, where Chef Willy Ying used to be head chef.

[Xiao Yang]

Do you mean Lu Bo Lang (绿波廊)? It's one no tourist misses seeing, if not eating at.

http://www.lubolang.com/index1-e.htm

[Melanie Wong]

Yes, thanks, that's it, I remember looking at that website. I had pulled the other spelling off Lily's site.

[Benny Choi]

Michael, I'm on the other side of your experience cycle. I recently vacationed in Shanghai and Beijing for my first time and had some excellent food experiences there.

Shanghai East and Happy Cafe, both in San Mateo, are good starts for Shanghainese cuisine here. Try the drunken chicken and the minced greens and tofu dishes. I found the XLB in Shanghai to have more robust, meaty flavors inside than what you find here in the Bay Area. I ate at Yank Sing just a few days after returning from my trip and I found the XLB there to be bland compared to the real stuff.

Other than Everyday Beijing, I don't know of any Beijing cuisine restaurants here. Just some tips while you're in Beijing - avoid the touristy night market, the food was universally disappointing; don't be surprised to find some of the excellent Peking duck meat and crispy skin to have much more of a gamey flavor than what you get here.

[manda]

I also like Little Shanghai Restaurant in San Mateo. I've found their food isn't quite as greasy as Shanghai East down the street.

Interestingly, I think the weekend special/small eats of both restaurants pretty similar.

[Xiao Yang]

Haven't tried that one yet, but it looks ambitious, base on a peek at the menu provided by Melanie Wong in an earlier post:

http://www.chowhound.com/topics/373157

[Xiao Yang]

Shanghai Restaurant in Oakland has the most uncompromisingly Shanghainese menu I've seen in the Bay Area, and since Shanghai East is its sister restaurant that one might be your best introduction to Shanghainese food in your area.

Here's a "cheat sheet" I put together of typical Shanghainese menu items which might help you work your way through some menus in Shanghai:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...

[DezzerSF]

Great spreadsheet XY! If you're lucky, you can catch XY himself and chat with him on the page..

[Nancy Berry]

I really like Shanghai Dumpling Shop in Millbrae. Their dumplings are great and their Lion's Head and other braised dishes are also very good. We particularly like the dried bean curd sheet "noodle" dishes and the braised dishes with dried bean curd "knots" and either spinach or bok choy. Also, try the pan-fried pork bao. And look at the wall for specials written in English. Lots of good stuff!!

[SteveG]

I think China Bee in San Mateo fits the bill, food-wise. I was with a Shanghainese family member, so all the ordering was done in Shanghainese or Mandarin--sorry I can't say whether or not the menu is white potato friendly or not.

As others have mentioned in previous chowhound threads, the sticky/crispy rice roll with filling in plastic wrap was tasty and pretty popular in the restaurant. We also enjoyed our smoked fish and the eel dish. Stinky tofu is available as well; I have to say I'm not a super fan but this was one of the better renditions I've had.

[mdg]

Wow - thanks for all the recommendations so far, and for the great cheat sheet! I'm adding links for the places that seem to meet my criteria and don't have them yet. If we have to travel further afield for more Beijing-style food we could do that...

Thanks,
Michael

[Nancy Berry]

A good Beijing style restaurant is the tiny Kingdom of Dumpling in San Francisco. Excellent radish cakes, grilled skewered marinated lamb -- superb!!, beef-filled pancakes, beef tendon, beef noodle soup.

[Dave MP]

Don't forget the lamb dumplings!

[bbulkow]

When I was in beijing a few years ago, friends-of-friends took me to a real chinese hot pot place. I had never seen that kind of hot pot, but upon return I looked for it and found. As the delights of San Mateo have been mentioned, Little Sheep is in San Mateo and a reliable purveyor of the art - but search for Hot Pot on the board and you'll see a few discussions. There's some in Milpitas perhaps nearer.

The place I went in Beijing was a new place in a mall upstairs near Chong Wen Men subway, on the west side of the street. Yum like crazy.

About the only real surprise I had eating in china is kung pao chicken is served everywhere.

I second the recs for Shanghai East and similar. It's about like a suspiciously clean neighborhood joint in China. You'll find better over there, but SE is within range. That, in itself, is a treasure, about like finding a Parisian grade croissant outside france. Finally, at SE, vector toward the southern dishes - the more northern dishes are rocky.

[Xiao Yang]

Little Sheep in San Mateo and Union City are actual branches of a chain you will find in nearly every neighborhood in Shanghai and probably in Beijing. If Michael likes hot pot, he will definitely have something familiar awaiting him in China if he tries the Little Sheep restaurants here.

I'm not sure what you mean by "northern" versus "southern" dishes at Shanghai East unless you mean Jiangsu versus Zhejiang influences; there are no such pat categorizations at Shanghai East's parent restaurant in Oakland, it's exactly what you would find in a family-run restaurant in Shanghai. Did Shanghai East add some Cantonese Golden Oldies to cater to a more suburban clientele? Even if so, it would be pointless to focus on those to familiarize oneself with Shanghainese cuisine.

[K K]

You just reminded me that Little Shanghai in San Mateo (Chinese name: Shanghai Ren Jia), their menu has categories for Jiangsu and Zhejiang dishes, which exactly map to their Chinese name, that seemingly suggests a family type place.

[Xiao Yang]

Maybe in some phoneticizations/Romanization systems (you seem to use the Taiwanese) it does but not in the characters or in PinYin.

The Chinese name (at least the way it's rendered by Sina.com) is definitely "Shanghai Family" (上海人家) which, interestingly, apes the name of a famous chain in Shanghai. I'm not clear on how you can map Jiangsu (江苏) and Zhejiang (浙江) to "ren" and "jia" or vice versa.

BTW, that reminds me that there used to be a great little restaurant at 22nd and Clement in SF called "Shanghai Family" in English but "Shanghai Xintiandi" in Chinese. Go figure.

[K K]

I never learned proper pinyin, just spelling the pronounciation out so it's easier for everyone in general (that's how most Hong Kongers do it for their Cantonese anyway).

I'm only saying Little Shanghai does categorize Zhejiang and Jiangsu dishes on their menu. Not something I saw at other Peninsula type Shanghainese places.

Little Shanghai's Chinese name suggests or hints at a family style type restaurant (interpret that part any way you will). Basically I was making two points which I thought were in line with what you originally said 2 posts above. But perhaps I read it and stated it differently.

Nice work on that spreadsheet by the way. Since you mentioned living in Hong Kong before, there's one dish that seems very common in HK restaurants in Shanghai but you hardly see it here. It's basically chicken with thin rice noodle soup with vegetables or luan ji hwei mien. Very flavorful broth, the noodles are on the soggy side, and the chicken is also very tender.

Soy sauce marinated small eats (lu wei) is very popular in Taiwan and made its way into Hakka Taiwanese cuisine, but some say that style originated in Shanghai (although it is also prominent in Southern Cantonese cooking and also Chiu Chow cuisine too). Lao Tien Lu at Ximending Taipei has a 50+ year old shop specializing in the soy marinated snacks where the owner was originally from Shanghai

http://www.laotienlu.com.tw

and eventually relocated his business to Taipei.

Sadly I don't think there's anything like that (if not that breadth and depth) served at Shanghainese restaurants in the Bay Area, let alone decent versions at our Bay Area supermarkets or random South Bay restaurants that serve some of the stuff

[K K]

Old Islamic Mandarin in SF might be worth checking out, although it's a different niche of cuisine. I don't know if the owners are from Beijing, but their hot pot dipping sauce (which comes from these purple looking things inside jars) are imported from there. Their hot pots are different than Little Sheep's (the latter using more fragrant spices and Chinese herbs to start a base broth and recommending to use no dipping sauce, although you can order a side for ahem 50 cents a small dish) so it is good to get different perspectives.

Also OIM's multi layered pancake with beef is similar in concept to the "jing dong rou bing" (pork version) at Everyday Beijing, although I like OIM's beef thingy a lot despite the juicy succulent grease.

[Xiao Yang]

"Despite" or "because of"? I like the best shengjian bao in Shanghai precisely for the dribble-down-your-chin greasiness.

OMI (I believe it's "Old Mandarin Islamic") is a good suggestion. I don't think Beijing really has a cuisine of its own, but is home to a lot of Islamic Chinese restaurants, and OMI will put the OP up the curve. Ditto dongbei cuisine, and a trip to Little Potato in Union City might be useful.

[Robert Lauriston]

Old Mandarin's hot pot is billed as Peking-style. Whether it's authentic, I dunno, but it's very good.

I found their "stirred flour ball," "Peking beef pie," and "onion pancake" bland and greasy.

[Xiao Yang]

Peking-Style is another name for Mongolian hot pot. It uses the "chimney" pot which traditionally is heated by putting hot coals in the chimney, but the Fire Marshals don't look too kindly on that here, so OMI uses a butane stove, IIRC, to heat it.

[K K]

There's also QQ Noodle in Fremont, although I'm not sure if that is worth the trip for the OP as Everyday Beijing offers a wider menu than QQ from what I've read, and they focus more on family style, homey type dishes from a "mien guan" (flour based joint - ie noodles, dumplings).

Old Mandarin Islamic offers another unique flavor that's a bit more specific, and perhaps regional. But other than that I cannot think of any other more well known restaurants that offer up true and obvious Beijing style cuisines. Their beef and lamb hot pots are a must, and I recall the hot pots looking typical Northern style, and in a strange way the pot resembling a little bit like a sombrero and yes gas driven stove.
Be sure to try an order of fermented/sour cabbage, pour that into the pot/broth and give it a bit more texture and flavor.

Other than the beef thingy and hotpots, never ate anything else there, but for SF it's definitely a destination stop for that niche of cooking.

I'm a nut when it comes to good shen jian bao and usually save myself for those trips to Taipei night markets. Shanghai Flavor Shop in Sunnyvale offers a fantastic rendition, but for some reason they grill the SJB's on the top by the pleats, versus the bottom. They are pretty big too. Yes juicy flavored grease n soup are a requirement, in addition to chili sauce to enjoy this stuff fully.

Some of the little sheep side dishes are very nice too. They also have something somewhat similar to that beef thingy that's excellent when consumed hot and toasty.

[Robert Lauriston]

OMI's "lamb with preserved vegetables warm pot" is great. Lamb with green onions, "stirred potatoes with chili," and the sautéed Chinese cabbage with dried shrimp are also good.

But if you order the hot pot that can be a meal in itself.

[yimster]

Here is another option for you to try prior to your trip. All the other place I would have recommend have already been posted.

http://www.chowhound.com/topics/508698

I just posted a few minutes ago.

[mdg]

Thanks again for all the recommendations. We're starting off with the places nearest to us, so our first meal in this excursion was last week at Shanghai Taste Delight in Mountain View. Our favorite was the fish filet in house-made wine sauce. The mustard green with broad bean was also very tasty, though it was the broad beans that were the primary ingredient rather than the greens. We had heard that the XLB were so-so but had to try them anyway; what we heard was right. We'll be back to sample more of this menu.

Today I tried out Shanghai Flavor Shop for the Special Combo A: the sheng jiang bao preceded by the tofu with bean noodle soup. This made for a fine lunch indeed, and I think I finally got the hang of eating the dumplings midway through the portion of 6. A few doors down in the same shopping center is a fairly new Indian restaurant, Athidhi, which was doing great business for its lunch buffet and looks well worth checking out for southern Indian non-vegetarian food.

It sounds like Beijing is more like Paris than Rome in terms of capital city cuisine - that is, the restaurant food is more national, less regional. Getting some northwestern Chinese food experience sounds like a good idea, but we may try Fatima in Cupertino first since it's a lot closer to us than Old Mandarin Islamic in San Francisco.

How about Jai Yun in San Francisco? Is that a haute-Shanghai style? I guess we have had more Shanghai food than I realized, as the chef from Mei Long in Mountain View was from Shanghai and I recognize several dishes on menus of restaurants in this discussion from our meals there.

Michael

[Xiao Yang]

Yes, Jai Yun is basically haute Shanghainese, though the chef is from Nanjing and can't even speak the Shanghainese dialect.

Any restuarant named Mei Long, Mei Long Village, or Meilongzhen is likely to be Shanghainese, as it is likely to be named after Meilongzhen, the toughest table to book in Shanghai for several decades.

[mdg]

Thanks again for all the help! We wound up not trying as many of these places as we wanted since we were both pressed for time getting ready for the trip and didn't have a lot of energy for trips to San Mateo and beyond. But it was great to have sampled the stir-fried pancake dish at Everyday Beijing which showed up in one of our Beijing banquet meals, and to have been introduced to sheng jian bao beforehand! The ones we had in Shanghai were more refined than what we had at Shanghai Flavor. Yank Sing XLB stood up very well in comparison to the XLB in Shanghai.

Since this was a group of 150 (for chorus) or 300 (plus orchestra), we had lots of banquet meals. The first couple were severely Americanized but after a meeting with the tour company things got much better. We didn't have many meals on our own, and when we did we didn't have a lot of time to head to places far afield. But we found some great, inexpensive restaurants close to our hotels in both Shanghai (Bi Feng Tang) and Beijing (Yuxiang Renjia) - not local cuisine for those cities, but so good that they both got return visits.

It was interesting was that there weren't a lot of dramatic chow revelations on this trip. There was a lot of excellent food, but quality was similar or just one step up from what you could get at the best places for particular dishes in the Bay area. The most memorable dish was probably the really ma la frog dish we had at Bi Feng Tang.

Thanks again for all the tips. Jade Palace is definitely on the list of places to try in the future.

Michael