50779 Sat Jun 29 14:02:50 -0700 2002 35 2 Los Angeles Area 0 257431 June 29th is the last day for the waitress who has been making the desserts for Shibucho restaurant over the last year. So if you are thinking of that one last special dinner at Schibucho and want those desserts to finish the meal...get your butt down there tonight. Last Saturday had dinner for 2 at $160, multi-course special dinner for the 3 wines we brought. 5 slices each of toro and hamachi(truly outstanding yellowtail, but Shige does not get excited about plain fish, he wants to create dishes that match the wines we brought) and a number of other toro based items really pushed the bill up! Must have been the fact that we took the waitress to Echigo a few weeks earlier(she would have to tell Shige). Went back to Echigo and Sushi Wasabe(Sushi Wasabi is how it's written on their menu), to try the chu-toro at both. Not sure where Shige's toro came from but the other places had Big Eye tuna from Hawaii. All 3 were very good, but Wasabi is always priced at $5 for 2 pieces, were as at Echigo one week it's $10 another it's $8. If you do not mind driving down to Tustin for the lowest priced/freshest sushi, then you can have Wasabi's warm rice which really falls apart almost all the time. Echigo also falls apart. Mori Sushi serves semi-warm rice that falls apart the least. Schibucho waitress(aside from her terrific desserts, she has learned from Shige, how to make sushi properly) says that Echigo's falls apart due to poor technique of sushi chef. Echigo's corkage fee is preposterous at $15...I want Riedel stemware, like at Patina, for that kind of money. Echigo has some premium sakes, but at $14 a shot glass for sake that costs $50-60 a 1.5 liter bottle at retail prices; too steep for me. Caviar and foie gras come from the Cheesestore of Beverly Hills. Sevruga, Osetra, or Beluga...it depends on what they want to give Shige at the time. BTW the caviar supplier, who was working in the Cheesestore over the holiday season, is named Rafi. Caviar is only a part-time business for the Lebanese Rafi, but Rafi did have some great beluga during the holiday season...no I cannot afford it, but did get to taste some! Sat Jun 29 14:02:50 -0700 2002 0 LA Cheesemonger 1 257432 so he's only had those great desserts for the past year or so. those were some great desserts especially for a japanese restaurant (usu. desserts at sushi restaurants means either mochi or fresh fruit) from the tiramisu to the choc. mousse to the peach mousse to the fruit tart. all were great. i was wondering where he got those desserts from. also, how is the foie gras over there? how's it served? and how much would a portion of it cost? thanks. Sat Jun 29 14:08:26 -0700 2002 257431 0 kevin 2 257455 To Kevin and Rafi, I concurn on the desserts she makes, when I was there a week after Rafi's visit, it was my 2nd visit(first time only had slices of pear to finish off the meal) and I loved the wedge of chocolate tart with a scoop of coconut/vanilla ice milk on top...sat there waiting for 10-20 minutes letting the ice milk soften up to perfect consistency. Had a choice of names to use, but gourmand guy or gourmet guy seemed pretty lame...so LA Cheesemonger---cheese and wine go together, I love both; but I am not in the business...just know the right people. Geez, that waitress has as much of a colorful and flavorful personality as her desserts; if I were not so laid back, had the high-energy personality to match hers, I'd marry her(she's too high maintenance for me). Traditional Japanese woman(so she says) with plenty of Westernized spunk. She sings, has a music CD out in Japan, is a calligrapher, used to hangout with a motorcycle gang in Japan...she does it all(way too much woman for me to handle, though I wish I could). Champagne dreams on a beer budget for us all. Kevin, since I go with a friend, Shige just makes up whatever he thinks will go with the wines. Never had foie gras there(except there is some reduction sauce he uses sometimes) as I am sure it would bust the budget, ankimo is good enough for me. Want the ultimate preparation, save up your pennies and go to Burgundy and visit Marc Meneau's 3-star restaurant and get his signature foie gras dish. In 1990 Martine Saunier(importer of the legendary Henri Jayer wines) was touring N. CA with Henri Jayer and Jean Nicolas Meo. There was a dinner/tasting at a French hotel in downtown SF. Marc Meneau was the guest chef(except he could not make it) and I had an most memorable meal along with a 1978 Jayer Vosne-Romanee 'Cros Parantoux'. Marc Meneau's signature foie gras preparation involves a deep fried dollup of foie gras that comes to the table as a very hot(the foie gras is liquified from the deep frying heat) 1/2 inch sized cube. Pop that sucker in your mouth like a premium Belgian chocolate truffle....squish, and a burst of flavor that is hard to describe. Fantastic, but only one, I could have eaten a dozen! Rafi, you only live life once; dump the friend and go indulge in the sushi and dessert one last time! In August, one of the Cheesestore employee's (think he used to be the manager for Ozzy Osbourne) is supposedly opening up a gourmet foods shop near you...think it is the courtyard by Stella's Cafe on Sunset? My plan of attack as soon as I post here, toro man on a mission. Hit Mori when they open at 5:45(will try to get takeout) order serving of toro or two. Leave(I don't like the hostess there anyway) for Echigo to order another serving of toro to compare. Head on down to Tustin for another quicky(hey, am all for the foreplay thing, but not tonight, or at least not about food) of toro at Sushi Wasabi. Then back up to Shibucho for more toro and other sushi only(those wine dinners bust my budget), but saving space for as much dessert as left by the time I get there. So who has best toro today, I shall try to find out! Now if I could only keep pace with that high energy waitress who has a taste for Italian white truffles($180 an ounce for a half dollar sized nugget, at the Cheesestore) I'd marry her...then again she's got a friend who runs an 'escort' service in Kobe, Japan; some pretty expensive 'flesh/meat' in that city...oh, champagne dreams on a beer budget. Sat Jun 29 20:23:04 -0700 2002 257432 0 LA Cheesemonger 3 257461 L.A. Cheesemonger, your message brought back delicious memories of our dinner at L'Esperance near Vezelay, France. We had the cromesqui (the deep-fried foie gras balls)and loved them. Some years later, I called L'Orangerie on La Cienega to make a lunch reservation for a special occasion. I couldn't believe my good fortune when I was told that Marc Meneau was to be the guest chef that week. I mentioned that we had dined at L'Esperance and asked if cromesqui were going to be on their set luncheon menu. They weren't but, because I asked, Marc Meneau made up a batch for us as well as for the staff. I can't recall what I ordered to go with them but I know that it was a wonderful Sauternes. Chef Meneau came out to greet us at L'Orangerie but I wasn't quite sure what he was saying since I am not fluent in French. I don't know if the restaurant Alain Rondelli is still in San Francisco. Seems to me that I heard that it had closed. Alain worked with Marc Meneau at L'Esperance and had cheese cromsqui on his menu. Not as good as the foie gras variety but will very good. Sat Jun 29 22:55:09 -0700 2002 257455 0 Barbara 4 257755 Still with me? Doing the annual once over of piles of papers, I found the ‘standard’ L’Esperance booklet they use for guest appearances, with that nights’ wines and dinner insert held in by the gold cord. Restaurant Pierre at the Meridien, Nov.14, 1990. You can have a copy of this. Better yet I found the printout I made of the Japanese magazine? Pictures of various toro. Since it was scanned by this Greg guy for posting on the internet, it is a low resolution jpeg image...it did not printout so sharply. After so many generations the colors are quite off(assuming, arguendo, that the original had accurate color). I will make 5 copies of the 3 pages and drop them off at Echigo, so any chowhounds can come in and ask for it. Previously I had told the main waitress there, about www.chowhounds.com, and she visits(be careful what you say on the boards) to read the comments. I would guess they would allow this, as it is good for business(not that I think Toshi-san is a very good businessman). Look for a post “Toro pictures for chowhounds at Echigo” after I get the OK from Echigo. BTW, after dinner at Sasabune, you have room for dessert, yes? Then on Thurs-Sat. nights until midnight, head on down to Mrs. Junko Saito’s Mousse Fantasy, 2130 Sawtelle, #110; for some of the best(ethereal light mousses, but also decadently heavy vanilla custard cream filled, old-fashioned cream puffs, and likewise chocolate eclairs---that’s Belgian Callebaut chocolate they use) desserts in town. I’m posting this under your reply, before I post in response to the wine geeks on food/wine entitled ‘toro shootout anyone?’, in case the PC team deletes my entire thread. Your daughter married yet, you like ice cream? Then read my reply tomorrow, which I’ll stick under Rafi’s reply on the current ice cream thread. Not to pick on Rafi at all, I admire Rafi’s enthusiasm. You should find my ice cream comments a bit amusing. The menu for Pierre did not list the foie gras cubes as this came first as what the French restaurants call an “amuse-...” the term escapes me right now, something like amuse-gueule, which is a gratis/teaser appetizer. Speaking of paring food and wine, we had the two most expensive red and white wines with that dinner(and in this case the most expensive, were by far the best wines, coming from the 1978 vintage). But I am wondering with the deep fried foie gras being so, so rich; what wine would actually complement. Foie gras and sauternes are the ubiquitous standards, but when it’s deep fried, it makes the flavors all the more powerful. Would even a great mature Sauternes like a half bottle of 1967 Ch. d’Yquem do this justice? Only one little morsel, a teaser, what do you do with the rest of that glass of Sauternes? Now if I had a dozen of those explosively flavorful morsels to go with a glass of sauternes, now you’re talking. Kind of like great sex the first time...you say: wow, that was great.............more, please. Once is just not enough, what a teaser that dish is. Better response to wines at Shibucho(though probably not very helpful considering my ‘insider’ style meals I have there), is that I have not paid for any of Shige’s wines, preferring to bring in our own wines, which of course are much better(again, Shige may only allow this for my friend, that is Shige’s friend). Sometimes, whatever he is in the mood for making does work well with the wines; other times, this dish or that, does not work. Different strokes, for different folks. Just go out and enjoy yourself with the hubby; when it comes to ambiance, I think you will find the lighting and the cozy small place Shibucho is, more to your liking than the other places(as long as Shige is in a good mood). That’s why La Folie is my favorite high-end French restaurant in S.F.(though I haven’t had dinner in S.F. for years). Perhaps Russkar has enough superior knowledge of Japanese culture to tell you what those two small mounds of salt are doing at the entrance doorway to Shibucho. The best fresh wasabi root does not come from that place Russkar mentioned. He should have been there when Rafi was at Shibucho last October, when the younger sister of the waitress was visiting for a week from Japan...fresh wasabi just off the plane. Fri Jul 05 22:00:40 -0700 2002 257461 0 LA Cheesemonger 5 257759 Your right about one thing. La Folie is great, with Roland in the kitchen. But, fresh WASABI is still flow in fresh from Japan daily to International Marine. GAME OVER! Fri Jul 05 22:22:11 -0700 2002 257755 0 russkar 5 257771 Thanks. I would love to see the toro photos. By any chance, did you figure out where on the internet they were posted? When we had the cromesqui at L'Orangerie (L.A.), I ordered a half bottle Sauternes recommended by the sommelier. Since I had requested the cromesqui in advance and they were not served to anyone else other than the staff, we were presented with about 8 of them for the two of us. In fact, per her request, my friend was given another one or two to take home to her husband. The Sauternes was not a Chte. d'Yquem but it "worked". We have one '67 Chte. d'Yquem left from a bunch that I bought years ago at Trader Joe's for $25/bottle. Sure wish I had bought cases of the stuff! The last time we opened one, we had dinner with two other couples. I made sauteed foie gras with poached apples (Jean-Louis Palladin recipe)to go with the first half of the bottle. We served the second half by itself after we had finished all the other courses. More recently, a dinner guest brought a bottle (same vintage) to our home and asked in advance that I make a complementary dessert. Can't recall what I made but it was either apple or pear. Frankly, although I love it with fois gras, my preference is to sip it by its lonesome. BTW, I once read that it works nicely with peanut butter! Quite serendipitously, I recently came across a recipe for Marc Meneau's cromesqui on the internet. I can't find it at the moment but I will post it if I find it. My recollection is that the fineness of the crumbs was an inportant factor. Might be fun to make them at home but they sure are artery cloggers. I'll post a note after we have been to Shibucho. More than likely, it will be next Wednesday night. A definite YES on La Folie. Haven't been there for a couple of years but it never fails to please. Last time we were there, we had been to Masa's the night before where we had a dreary dining experience with an insultingly overpriced wine list. (I've heard that Masa's is much better these days but I doubt that we will ever be willing to find out first hand.) After that evening, La Folie was sheer heaven. Outstanding fare and an excellent wine list with affordable prices. I'll watch for your ice cream post. Sat Jul 06 13:29:36 -0700 2002 257755 0 Barbara 6 257786 Watch out at MASA's , he's no Roland. Sun Jul 07 01:23:19 -0700 2002 257771 0 russkar 7 257790 I've never particularly liked Masa's but it was truly terrible when we were last there several years ago. We only went that time because we were with friends who wanted to go there. We were in San Franciso last year and the people that we were having dinner with wanted to make a rez there. No dice after our experience a few years before that. Too many wonderful places to dine in San Francisco to even think about going back to Masa's. For me, the difference between L.A. and San Francisco is deciding where to eat vs where not to eat. Sun Jul 07 03:57:21 -0700 2002 257786 0 Barbara 3 257468 LA Cheesemonger, I would love to read the results of your toro mission. I'm a relative newcomer to the sushi/sashimi scene but I am enjoying the learning experience. We have not yet been to Shibucho or Echigo but I have added them to the "to be tried" list. So far, our favorite is Sasabune on Sawtelle. We tried Mori once and most likely will not return. Everything was good but it seemed overpriced compared to some of the other sushi bars that we have tried. I sure liked their pottery though! Sun Jun 30 01:32:35 -0700 2002 257455 0 Barbara 4 257494 Tried for hours on meta-search engines to get you a link to some guy named Greg, who posted a page copied from a Japanese magazine article that had a great diagram of cross section of tuna showing various grades of toro, with prices in yen and pictures of about a dozen well made chu-toro and otoro sushi...I knew I should have bookmarked that page. Sometime back in March or April I posted my opinion of various sushi places, indicating that when I went into Sasabune I got a rather 'warm' welcome from the Nazi waitress there. Have never been to Sasabune and never will visit. I heard from someone that a customer(not of Japanese ethnicity) that they tell you how you must eat each type of sushi or dish they prepare there. Pure American nonsense, I asked Shibucho's waitress about that when we were at Echigo. If she were to eat there, she would in no short order tell them in Japanese what they could do with such demands(at Echigo she asked for a cucumber only handroll, which is not on the menu, further indicating that she wanted it to be cut. Assertive, confindent demeanor got her what she wanted). Moreover, after telling us that the Echigo chef did not have good technique as the reason for the sushi falling apart, she then showed us how to quickly grab the sushi with our fingers to dip the fish side into the soy sauce without using chopsticks....Japanese style! Try that next time you are at Sasabune. Curious, being that L'Orangerie is one of the most expensive restuarants in LA(I've only been there once to impress a date in the courtyard section), that you find Mori expensive. Mori comes by way of that overly trendy sushi bar over on San Vincente, via Matsushita(sp?). Mori is priced fairly for the artistic presentation, kind of like the Nouvelle Cusine trend in French food of decades gone by...just a Japanese sushi style of sorts. Let Shige serve you whatever he wants at Shibucho and you will find out as Rafi did, you will get some really outstanding food, but the mussel soup, she and I had that week(awesome!) is not Japanese. Shige's food is Japanese but influenced by mediterannean/Italian/French cooking. Shige eats at the Italian restuarant Madeo on Sundays. Aside from the warm rice, Echigo and Wasabi are quite similar in style. Mori is more upscale, fancy, and inventive...but still Japanese. After the LA Times Calendar review(you can search for the May 2000 review on the website under Calendar Live section) Mori was(and still is to a certain extent) very busy. I went there twice about the same time the Times reviewer did when it was much more pleasant and low key(except for the self-assured, know-it-all hostess---who did not know it all, and finally allowed me to question Mori on my queries in regards to various toro)...not many customers. Back when they were not busy I just talked to Mori as he told me that Bluefin toro was not available at that time of year, but the baby bluefin from San Diego was quite good. East coast runs of bluefin(Mori took out a little notebook that had a map of N. America to show me) were best in May-June. Hamachi from Japan is best around Nov.-Dec.(but the Hamachi at Shibucho this week was outstanding). Mori knows his fish, but the place is too damn busy these days. The broiled, live Santa Barbara spot prawns are perfectly succulent and plump. Echigo serves the same raw, which is OK, but lightly broiled gives the best flavor. And the winner on the Saturday's toro report? Got a late start, arrived at Sushi Wasabi in Tustin at 8:15PM, only two other couples at the omakase only bar. I sat at the tables, quickly ordering chu-toro (Big Eye from Hawaii) and ankimo. Yikes first time ever, toro was $6, and not completely glistening, but it was still very good---not like that chewy, bland, farm-raised Spanish otoro and chu-toro they sell at the Mitsuwa markets. I defy anyone who was not born and raised in Asia using chopsticks to manage to eat the monkfish sushi at Wasabi without the rice falling apart. Chef Katsu drenches the sushi with ponzu sauce, which probably does not help keep the rice together...but it is quite tasty. 9:20 arrive at Mori, although it closes at 9:45PM(got to love those iconolastic/peculiar sushi chefs), but a group of customers just arrived, the place was still full...I passed, and headed on over to Echigo. Only 4-6 other people at the omakase only bar. I sat at a table, same drill with toro(Big Eye) and ankimo. Big glistening pieces of chu-toro(too big to shape well on the rice), buttery soft(I think the almost hot rice, brings out the flavor/texture of the fish a little more). Ankimo, brings the usual advisory that it will take some time. Reason, chef Toshi heats up the monkfish until it too is warm/buttery soft. There is miso sauce on top, but a little too much for my tastes, so I just scrape off some with chopsticks, then eat. Large pieces of delicious ankimo---Kevin should love it. Wasabi priced toro $6, ankimo $5; Echigo $8/$4, respectively. Called waitress at Shibucho telling her that I would be by at around 10:30 and to save me some dessert. Then she tells me that she made a 'special' dessert the night before, and I told her she must save me some(Shibucho was quite busy until 9PM). Shibucho was empty when I arrived(a Japanese speaking couple arrived at 11PM, so we were the only ones there until closing at 12PM). I had hamachi and maguro to start with the Kelham, Napa Sauvignon Blanc(small botique winery) I brought, then Shige did the typical(for serious wine enthusiasts at least) argugla/balsamic vinegar/olive oil/lemon juice, with some type of seafood on top...this time merely halves of broiled scallops. As I spent much time talking to Shige about his wine buying escapdes, did not eat that much. Finished with his bluefin chu-toro which was quite good(both Mori and Shibucho often have the more expensive otoro) but I give the edge to Echigo this day, with the Wasabi toro a notch below both Shibucho and Echigo, noting that Wasabi's toro is a hair better than it was this time, most of the time. Then the special dessert, which turned out to be strawberry cheesecake. Slices of strawberry on the side with a thick creme anglaise sauce, but the wedge of cheesecake was oh, oh, oh, so rich! But I told the waitress that ALL of her desserts are special, which made her smile(shameless flirting on my part, but it was true none the less). And so she made enough that there will still be some left for Monday night....Rafi? I noticed something I had not seen before, jumbo sized raw Santa Barbara spot prawns. But alas I was too full this day. When you get Shige half-way comfortable with you, he can be a pretty nice guy. He had a decanter with a 1975 Bordeaux opened from the day before that he gave me a whole glass of in his better stemware, then gave a glass each to the Japanese couple...and we all left at midnight, happy and satiated. I did not get charged a corkage fee, because my friend knows Shige well, and I am also friendly/mildly acquainted with the waitress. But if you figure that Shige probably charges 15 or 20 for corkage, unlike Echigo, at least you get higher quality stemware, and you'd pay more of a markup on that Sauvignon Blanc(which retails for $22) if it were on a wine list....high-end restaurants in this town and others, really gouge big time on common ordinary wines; 2-3 times retail prices. I will try to better reply to both Kevin's and Barbara's other comments tomorrow...I'm pooped-out now. Mon Jul 01 01:52:51 -0700 2002 257468 0 LA Cheesemonger 5 257524 Having been to SUSHI WASABI in Tustin several times in the past we don't plan to return. Katsu's portions are so ridiculously small even Kar (who was the first to find it agreed , enough!) MORI is a disappointment too, with inconsistent qualities of fish and small portions for a Kings ransom, never again(if you really have to have FRESH JAPANESE WASABI BUY IT AT INTERNATIONAL MARINE). As for Sasebune, they're very good, so is Echigo(especially for the price). But the HANDS DOWN WINNER FOR TORO still is NOZAWA. For a fair price too! Second place would be TAIKO (when they have it)in Irvine. Both these places have the best Monkfish liver too, Nozawa's with Miso sauce. With all the varieties of Toro available in the Downtown LA fish markets the favorite still is BIG EYE (the only "true" tuna species) I still like Blue fin too, had some at home last night). Being a wine collector I have to take issue with the wine vintage also(why not?, I wouldn't even cook with it) The French Bordeaux vintage of 1975 was one of the WORST of the century. A couple of exceptions were : La Mission, Petrus, which probably wasn't being poured. Mon Jul 01 18:03:27 -0700 2002 257494 0 russkar 6 257568 Calling the 75 vintage "one of the worst in the century" seems to me to be pretty irresponsible for someone who calls himself a wine collector. Granted, not everyone likes high tannins or has the patience to let the wines age out, but many estates harvested physiologically ripe fruit. Surely you can't prefer 77, 74, 72, 69, 68, 65, 63, or 56, to name but 8 vintages within 20 years of 1975, all of which are clearly inferior to it. Tue Jul 02 04:28:07 -0700 2002 257524 0 Peaches En Regalia 7 257573 Like I said "one of the Worst of the Century" certainly the other vintages you named were crap too! I can name on one hand the "Stellar" vintages which is not a lot out of a possible hundred is it? Out of the 15-20 1975 First Growths I've tasted High tannins and Fruit were absent. I received as a gift a bottle of DRC 65 La Tache(a horrible wine, with a score the same as it's year), I told Kar don't open it ever, the evil wine genie might escape! Tue Jul 02 09:43:01 -0700 2002 257568 0 russkar 8 257578 There are only 5 First Growths in the Medoc so what do you mean when you say the 15-20 that you've tasted? You aren't by any chance being HYPERBOLIC are you?? Tue Jul 02 12:00:49 -0700 2002 257573 0 Foodie 9 257584 OOps, 15-20 1975's including First Growths. All were disappointing except La Mission. Tue Jul 02 13:33:57 -0700 2002 257578 0 russkar 10 257636 We hope to soon add a wine discussion board. Until then, please discuss wine on the General Topics board so we can keep this LA board regionally chowcentric (and by "region" we don't mean the Medoc!) : ) Thanks! Wed Jul 03 00:44:07 -0700 2002 257584 2 The Chowhound Team 11 257694 ARE YOU TALKING TO ME? ROBERT DE NIRO Wed Jul 03 23:39:54 -0700 2002 257636 0 russkar 7 257638 1975 is certainly in the second if not the top quartile of Bordeaux vintages of the last century. Quite far from the worst which should mean the bottom quartile, although it may not be a vintage that one enjoys drinking. Wed Jul 03 02:27:59 -0700 2002 257568 0 Melanie Wong 8 257695 PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wed Jul 03 23:41:27 -0700 2002 257638 0 russkar 8 257823 Melanie, surprised you’d get into this; while I might not always agree with all of the assessments in your reviews; you’re almost always positive, write thorough, well thought out comments, and generally make me hungry, bravo! Since you’re one of the few that post an e-mail, would you be interested in receiving a copy of the dim sum menu from one of my favorite area restaurants, with the Chinese characters written on it for the weekend specials I like best, via an e-mail attachment jpeg scan? Just in case you want to make a little side trip drive next time you are in the southland? Unfortunately the best waitress(she left to take care of her daughter) I have ever met in any Chinese restaurant, of for that matter any restaurant; Juana Cheng(no mamby-pamby Americanized name for her, she’s from Hong Kong, real Chinese, and proud of it) is no longer there, and I now feel naked, a complete foreigner in that restaurant. Uh oh, have not read the Chowhound Team comment on this thread, but for the PC team administrator, just delete the entire thread if people are not civil enough for your liking. BTW, how do you know that I did not write all of those comments, just trying to egg everyone on? Start getting off topic into arguments about wine is an exercise in futility...wine geeks argue and argue, and never really agree; as a serious wine enthusiast for 15+ years, been there done that; I can talk the talk with the best of them. So when I saw the banter going on below and read through it, I just laughed so much my eyes almost teared up, kind of like when you watch the hilarious taxicab scene in the movie “The Night We Never Met”. That movie has the hapless(and hopeless in matters of the heart and love.....”what I really want....Inga! Come back.”) Mathew Broderick as a salesperson(and gourmet cook) at NY’s Dean & Deluca, really good movie for foodies to rent. With the idea of my typical nonsensical, irreverent, impish nature; and no real offense intended to anyone: I’ll throw my own juvenile temper tantrum a la the worse poor sport the game of pro tennis has ever seen, enfant terrible Johnny Mac(MacEnroe)... Russkar, “You cannot be serious! What, are you blind? That ball was clearly out”. The most brutally tannic, astringent, hard wine I have ever had was the 1984 Sullivan Merlot, tons of fruit but even greater amounts of bitter tannins; the wine just beat me up, pummelled me. Yet with any tannic wine, young or old; you wine people should know that unlike at a tasting or drinking by itself; any chef who knows wine can prepare foods to go with it that mitigate to some extent, or mostly eliminate those tannins. The 1975 Leoville Poyferre on its second night in the decanter was just a little tannic, but seemed to get slightly better in the glass over an hour or so. Perhaps some of those 1975 Bordeaux should be treated like a hard Barolos, and just tasted out of a decanter over a period of days to see if they improve. A brown brick red color, it looked older than the 1970 Latour-a-Pomerol(which I would rate 85 and 89 respectively), but while I was not impressed by it, Shige gave it to me blind. I asked what percentage of Cab it had in the blend. It had that telltale Cabernet ‘stink’ in the bouquet, and like wise flavors. This is the same that I got from nose on the 1984 Trevallon, yet the Trevallon(60% Cab, 40% Syrah) had no tannins as was the case when I bought it from Vin, Vino Wine in 1988 at $12, and the Trevallon almost had the same color, same flavors as it did in 1988. I cite issue 129(6-26-00) of the Wine Advocate, wherein ‘the P man’, Robert Parker notes on the Chateau Latour sponsored Christie’s tasting, with 100 years of bottles coming directly from the Chateau’s cellars, 1970 Latour was “surprisingly herbal, with notes of soy, cedar, roasted vegetables, leather, and earth DOMINATING the wine’s fruit”(emphasis added)---89pts. A bottle from his own cellar rated 97pts. Parker stating the often recited caveat about wines older than 20 years “there are no great wines, just great bottles”. This is why I rarely, if ever, have a wine off of any wine list in any restaurant in America; I just do not know where the wine came from(how it ultimately ended up in the possession of the restaurant), and how it has been stored. I’d much rather pay $20-30 corkage fee, and drink a wine I have an reasonable expectation will show well. In 1988 I bought a case of 1985 Ch. Fonsellete Cuvee Syrah from Pacific Wine Co. when they were located in Pacific Heights. Outstanding wine, sold some to attorney friends at $14. But I had my parents try to get me some when they visited Jacques Reynaud at Ch. Rayas. My mother only spoke a little French, but contrary to Parker’s comments, Reynaud was a teddy bear, and sold my mother one bottle of the Cuvee Syrah and Ch. Rayas 1985, even though it was already ‘sold-out’. In 1997 I had that Cuvee Syrah and it was much younger, darker, still full of youthful vigor in comparison to the case I bought in S.F.---go figure. Ch. Rayas is in Chateaunuef du Pape where the cellars could not possibly be as cool as at Ch. Latour. Every single vintage of Williams-Selyem wines I have purchased were picked up by me at the winery and driven back to Los Angeles, the only one to touch them was me, so I know they are in perfect condition. People who diss the cult icons of Calif Pinot Noir, Williams-Selyem, do not have the wines directly from the winery and have not had the wines stored correctly their entire lives. I shipped 1990 Rousseau Chambertin, Ponsot Griotte-Chambertin, Leroy Richebourg up to Williams-Selyem to taste with Burt Williams in 1995. He opened his 1991 Rochioli and it kicked butt all over the big guns of Burgundy, then he opened up a bottle he put into a brown bag and poured it for me saying, ‘how do you like the concentration of this wine’. Since I have been given a taste of both 1991 Rochioli and Summa vineyard Pinots from barrel a month before they were bottled(only one 1/2 barrel of Summa, 225 bottles produced), it was a no brainer what he had poured for me. Kicked royal butt on the French wines. Aubert du Villaine, co-owner of the Domaine de la Romanee-Conti(who’s wife is from Santa Barbara), likes but only one California Pinot Noir in particular...you guessed it. Best young Burgundy I have ever had in November 1993 at a private tasting in Riverside, with Bipin Desai’s smaller tasting group of local friends, was 1990 Leroy Chambertin, besting Jayer/Rouget, the great 1990 DRC La Tache, and the brown bagged 1990 W&S Rochioli I brought as a ‘ringer’- which fooled many into thinking it was French and which came in as the 3rd favorite. Talk is cheap, I have done the actual side-by-side comparisons, I speak from first hand experience. Ok Russkar, I’m game, tell us from your superior expertise on fish species, what you mean by your comments about Big Eye tuna. I mean, your buddy over there at Nozowa sells toro albacore. When I went in there(I tend to smooze/talk it up, with service staff and chefs; scope out a place before actually eating there) and loved that plastic ambiance, I asked to see the daily special toro albacore. The callously indifferent(or bored?) chef went to the refrigerator, pulled out a stainless steel drawer of white albacore, fumbled through a half dozen or so cuts, before pulling out one to show me. I guess because he cut the fish himself, he knew which was the ‘tenderloin’ cut, but I could not see the difference...it was all white, couldn’t see any extra fat. Geez louise, you complain about the size of the sushi at Wasabi when the toro there is usually half what it costs elsewhere. You know it’s like the comment I saw on www.storagereview.com when everyone was complaining how slow the pages loaded with Netscape(coded for the Winblows version of Internet Exploder), which took almost as long to load as the chowhounds database(which is now approaching 4MB--- hint, hint; chowhownd team). One person said about the slow downloads “quit your crying, and get your kiddie porn the old-fashioned way like everyone else does”. If toro is good, I usually order twice---what a novel concept. 2 orders of toro at Wasabi would be $10, still less than Sasabune. And ladies, does size really matter? Depends on the sophistication of the lady. The sophisticated lady knows it is more important to have a guy who wants to please them first, rather than self-absorbed males who only think of themselves and there own pleasure. I wonder if Barbara has ever been to that other 3-star restaurant in Lyon(name escapes me right now) where there is another signature dish. You know what sweetbread is(brains). And so you are served this signature dish with yet another fine French euphemism...real tasty, kind of squishy like brains, but pea sized. Russkar would complain it was just too small and wants a bigger piece. Ok, then ask for the sheep version of this dish, then you’ll get some really big mouthful sized testicles. Yep, that signature dish of pea sized rooster testicles is what you have just eaten---yum-yum For goodness sake people, it’s just food and wine; in the grand scheme of life neither are that important, don’t get your panties in a bunch! Plenty of real issues in life that stress us out, go to dinner with the attitude that you want to have fun, go for the pleasure. But consider this, perhaps Russkar was just sitting there at the computer with nothing much to say and wanted to gain a little attention, could have written something to get everyone’s goat, just laughing at the responses. Either way I did not take those comments seriously, as the point about Big Eye tuna is basically irrelevant and moot anyway. The freshest fish is what really matters, because only a very small percentage of people could actually tell the difference in taste between Big Eye and bluefin toro...but they can tell the difference between the freshness of sushi made in a good restaurant compared to what you get at the supermkts., that’s a no brainer. I hope Kevin was able to see the implications of my Saturday toro report, the economic folly of his being cost conscious. A phenomenal $1 difference between the two items at Wasabi and Echigo. Add up the cost of driving all the way to Tustin, not to mention the risk of getting killed in an auto accident, it makes no sense. I only stop by Wasabi when I’m visiting Orange County area wine shops. I asked at Wasabi, they charge $5 for corkage fee. Now if Echigo were only more reasonable at say $7.50 or something, for their cheap, $1 wine glasses. Impish, mischievous me; I like to do the slight-of-hand thing with my wine buddies. I’ll brown bag a 1/2 bottle of Calera ‘Jensen’ Pinot Noir, fill it with a French Burgundy, then after everyone tries to guess what it is, making all their comments about the wine, pull it out of the bag....they think it’s a pretty good Jensen, then I go out to my car and bring in the real bottle. Dirty little rat I am. Could do the same with Russkar. Think if I put 6 pieces of toro on a platter and told him it was Big Eye from several sushi restaurants and asked which he thought was best(not telling him that one of them was chu-toro from a bluefin tuna, a ‘ringer’ of sorts), he could tell the differences? Rather than indulge in all this silly(juvenile/McEnroeish) arguing, how about doing something more constructive? Seems like both Kevin and Barbara, maybe even Rafi; are interested in someway with wine and Japanese food combinations. Shibucho is a small cozy restaurant with nice lighting. How about having Russkar set up a Chowhounds toro/sushi shootout at Shibucho on a Friday or Saturday(traffic is much lighter on Saturday, so everyone should be able to get to Shibucho with a toro platter within 30 minutes or so, to preserve freshness), or over both days? Something like, have Russkar(bring in 1966 Latour, Shige has it, but not for his customers, because it retails for $500 and he cannot sell 500-$1000 dollar mature wines to his REGULAR customers)bring in one of those 1975 Bordeaux he feels are worth drinking from his cellar, get the 1975 Leoville Poyferre that Shige thinks is drinkable for what ever he charges for it, throw in one white wine, have the sushi shootout, then finish with Shige’s omakase dishes for the wines--- including his foie gras preparation. You know, you get a group of people that you can split the cost of the wines with such that everyone gets a glass of each to taste with the meal...just like a real wine tasting dinner. Since Nozowa is in the Valley, Echigo on the Westside, and any other top sushi restaurants you might include; well you set it up beforehand, calling a week or two ahead of time, if these chefs will agree to supply you with say 8 orders of toro from each restaurant as a takeout platter which you pickup before the restaurant opens/or right at opening so you do not interfere with their regular operations. Then each chowhound member shows up at Shibucho with the platter, you have the waitress apply small stickers on Shibucho’s pottery, with only numbers for the various toro from the various restaurants. A toro blind tasting if you will. Let the competition begin. Shige has been in the restaurant business since he was 15 years old, came to America and worked at the original Katsu in 1980; you think he might be just a little jaded/bored with making only sushi for over 2 decades in America alone? Pick his brain, challenge him to come up with something for the wines, after eating the toro, indicating you want a foie gras preparation. He does not always have foie gras or caviar on hand, so it is something you’d have to setup with him beforehand. Russkar can spit the Leoville Poyferre if he cannot stomach it, the rest will drink and decide if it just marginal, like my impression when I rate it an 85pts. wine. Split the cost between a group, then you do not feel so cheated by having to purchase the entire bottle on your own to find out you do not like it at all. Sound like a constructive plan Russkar? For ambiance, I think I like Nishimura on Melrose across the street from the Pacific Design Center. That place makes me think of some restaurant in a more upscale Tokyo neighborhood. And fitting of it’s location, Nishimura is more expensive than even Mori, but it’s lovely compared to Mori. Shibucho, makes me think of a small cozy place in an urban Tokyo area(of course the crime rate is much higher around Shibucho). Echigo, simple fresh sushi at a good price, and nothing more...in a second story mini-mall, where it could be turned into any other kind of restaurant overnight. Seriously responding to those comments of Russkar, well it’s old hat for this hedonist, too boring for me to get excited about(but I did get a good laugh). And Thi thinks he’s the talker...good thing I don’t have time to lurk on this board more often, otherwise the database would now be at 8MB already. That’s all for now on this topic, I’m done. Sun Jul 07 22:45:49 -0700 2002 257638 0 LA Cheesemonger 9 257884 Interesting idea you have there for a toro shootout. Wouldn't it be simpler though to find a good toro source and taste the different kinds at home? Or do all the sushi chefs get first crack, making it less likely that we could get our hands of the premium cuts? As for comparing cuts from various sushi restaurants, would doing so really tell us which one(s) have the best quality since it can vary from day to day? That question aside, I am eager to go to Shibucho. Sounds like it might be a good place to go with more people than the two of us in order to sample more dishes. Do you agree? I like your idea of asking to see the toro (in this case) before ordering it. I wouldn't have thought of that but it makes perfect sense. We have stopped ordering it after having received inferior pieces at sushi bars where that had previously not been the case. At those prices, why NOT ask to see if rist? Thanks for the idea. If by "that other 3-star restaurant in Lyon" you mean Paul Bocuse, the answer is yes. Only once and it was back in 1977 so I'm not sure which signature dish you mean. I had the Loup en Croute (Sea Bass Stuffed with Lobster Mousse) which, at least at the time, was one of his signature dishes. Also had Smoked Salmon w/Caviar and Medallions of Veal w/Onions. Had a 1970 Chte. Guibeau, a lesser St. Emilion growth but my notes reflect that we thought it was excellent with the food. To my regret, I did not order the Truffle Soup for which he is well known since I had not yet acquired a taste for truffles. We did not have sweetbreads there although I believe they were on the menu. My husband loves them but wasn't feeling well that night. I can live without them. Funny you should mention the 1970 Latour; we were served the '69 just last week. I thought that I was going to prefer the '95 W&S Olivet Lane and '96 Hirsch that were on the table but the Latour blew them away. Tannins still very much intact but the fruit crept out after a few hours in the decanter. While wine discussions are perhaps off topic for this board, I really do think it informative to know about L.A. restaurant wine lists. Although I neglected to say so before, I very much share your concern about older vintages on wine lists and am a stickler for proper storage. I will admit to not picking up W&S wines in person though. We do, however, ask that wines not be shipped to us during hot weather and that they only be shipped on Monday or Tuesday so that there is no chance of their sitting somewhere over a weekend. (We stopped ordering their wines after they were sold and at the point that the grapes were not necessariy their own.) There used to be a man whose business it was to transport wines from north to south in a temperature controlled van. I sure miss him. “The Night We Never Met” was on cable late last night and, wouldn't you know it, I fell asleep! Mon Jul 08 19:05:48 -0700 2002 257823 0 Barbara 9 257970 I wish that Russkar would sober up enough to respond to this post. Erik M. Chicago Wed Jul 10 00:02:05 -0700 2002 257823 0 Erik M. 10 258060 I'm still recovering from that Macadamian Tart I had yesterday. It's hard to respond to someone that thinks that Nozawa has TORO ALBACORE, likes Calif Pinots, and doesn't realize Burgs go great with Sushi and Bordeaux doesn't. Great Toro is so difficult to get on a given day let alone week that planning a time and place is almost impossible. Now if were going to include SUB SPECIES Blue Fin, Yellow Fin into the mix than anyday could work. But the BEST REAL TORO is BIG EYE ONLY! NOZAWA only has it rarely, most Sushi Bars have it NEVER! I think 90 LEROY Chambertain is in my fav top 5 list(still have some left, but at 1300- a bottle it's getting harder to drink) slightly behind 86 DRC LE Montra.....YUM! Thu Jul 11 10:50:42 -0700 2002 257970 0 russkar 5 257622 LA Cheesemonger, Thanks for the info as well as for trying to find the toro-grade link. You have reminded me that I should learn something about the various grades of toro since I am a newbie with respect to sushi/sashimi. I just had my first serving of toro earlier this year when I went to Tokyo with my daughter. Since then, my husband and I have been trying various sushi bars here in L.A. The toro that I had in Tokyo was much better than anything that I've had here although that could be a matter of personal preference. Yes, L'Orangerie is one of L.A.'s most expensive. I've been there three times in fifteen years: first time, to check it out; second time, to take a dear friend to lunch to celebrate her birthday as well as the fact that she was about to become a grandmother; third time, business dinner at which we were guests. The only time that I liked it was the lunch (at which time Marc Meneau was guest chef). The last time was the worst. Food just as mediocre as the first time, server was downright haughty, and smoke from the "cigar parlor" adjacent to the courtyard where we were seated didn't add anything positive to the experience. Fortunately, we weren't drinking any wines of consequence. >>I heard from someone that a customer...that they tell you how you must eat each type of sushi or dish they prepare there.<< That is not the way I would describe our experience there. We have now been there roughly 6 or 7 times. I was even more green the first time than I am now and I appreciated the chef's taking the time to politely show me how to place my chopsticks beneath the rice so that my sushi wouldn't fall apart. I agree with your friend that it is much easier to just pick it up with one's fingers and turn it fish-side down for dipping. I most always do it that way and haven't had a problem doing so at Sasabune. BTW, a gentleman next to me at a sushi bar in Tokyo tried to show me how to turn the whole thing over using my chopsticks. Nice of him to show me but I doubt that I will ever achieve that level of dexterity! I'm looking forward to trying Echigo and Shibucho. It will be interesting to hear Chef Shige's suggestions for pairing his food with the wines. What do you think of his selection of auction-purchased wines and how do you think the (wine) prices are? I'll have to try it to form my opinion but, at first glance, the combination of fine French wines and Japanese food (despite the other influences) doesn't sound like the perfect marriage to me. I'm always eager to have new culinary experiences though. Food and wine pairing is an exciting and sometimes challenging experience. Finding that I enjoy an unlikely match is always wonderful. I've been experimenting by trying to pair premium sakes with non-Japanese food but, so far, I have not hit on anything magical. Tue Jul 02 21:33:15 -0700 2002 257494 0 Barbara 6 257643 Babs, your not the one who had a last name that started with a B, before you got married? (not important). Try Kikasui sake, or if you can find it, the more expensive premium Kikasui Diaginzyo. The former Shibucho waitress(just part-time), during her singing career in Tokyo, got to be a fairly experienced wine enthusiast, drinking most of the big guns of Bordeaux and the most expensive Burgundy of them all, the $1,000+ DRC Romanee Conti. She would probably recommend this sake. Dry, lighter bodied, lots of fruit flavors...should work with other foods. As far as Sasabune, toro there is more expensive that the places(more than a year ago the dinner I had a Mori---I should think that with them being so busy, quality would suffer---was $45 for the oamakase and 35 for the sushi which included 2 orders ea. of chu-toro and the S.B. prawns again, as sushi) I have mentioned, and after so many years I just do not put up with bad service/attitude of anykind, like I got from that surly, Nazi soup waitress at Sasabune. I am not a masochist, I am a hedonist. I go out to dinner for pleasure, and anything or anyone that detracts from that...well, I just do not go back. I would guess that just about anyone would have trouble with the ponzu drenched ankimo sushi served at Wasabi, but Echigo's Toshi-san did show me the fist time how to try to scoop it up with chopsticks. The Shibucho waitress showed us the finger technique, where she just used 3 fingers(I think), and fast as lightning it was in her mouth. Fresh fish is an interesting concept. Most of the Yukon River and Cooper River King Salmon gets shipped to Japan for the well to do businessmen/businesswomen. In return for a whole tiramisu I asked her to make me, I got the Schibucho waitress the thickess peice of C.R. King from Santa Monica Seafood(thickest piece = fatty/rich/most flavor), and she loved it. She said she bought some in an expensive Japanese supermarket in Japan, but it was not as good. I am sure if you get it at the Pike mkt. in Seattle it will be a little better. Head on up to Alaska, catch it yourself on the Copper River, eat it that night...sublime heaven! Yes Shige likes old Bordeux first and foremost...but, he told me he has a friend who bought cases of the great 1961 vintage and gave him a bottle of '61 Latour for his birthday(rated100pts by just about every wine critic, bought at $12, now about $1600) and Shige told me it was too strong/intense---young to him, her prefers to try '66 Latour, which is big, but fully mature with amber color at the rim, unlike the '61. He purchases lesser vintages of mixed cases at auction, so he has fully mature(some would say over the hill or on the downside) Bordeaux at a reasonable price(marked up to about twice what it costs him, check Patina, Spago, or Campanille's wine lists, all those wines are at 2-3 times retail) for his customers. He has all kinds of older wines in his collection. He opened a 1966 California Pinot Noir---Joseph Phelps or something, which he bought for $9, and while it was still medium dark ruby with no amber at the rim, the flavors were not to my liking. Sometimes he does very good with his French/Italian semi-Japanese dishes with a wine. But last week we brought in 1993 Rochioli 'West Block' Pinot Noir, I brought 1993 Leroy Vosne-Romanee 'Les Beauxmonts' which I bought on release for $190(current mkt. value $400-800) and a 1970 Latour-a-Pomerol. Naturally Shige liked the Bordeaux, his usual complaint that CA Pinots are too sweet, but that he thought only 1978 Leroy were ready to drink now. Well that 1993 Leroy was quite sweet and almost tasted just like a 1995 Williams-Selyem Pinot Noir(great vintage for them) which cost a lot less. Sometimes you get lucky with wine and food parings. Those know it all experts below on this thread would never have guessed that the hamachi sashimi and the Leroy worked quite well together, but Shige was not interested in tasting the combination. It's a crap shoot, same goes with wine and cheese pairing. The St. Agur bluecheese they sell at the Cheesestore, is milder, creamier, whiter, and less salty than most blues. It works well with big reds from Southern France, and many Zinfandels. Yet take an over-ripe style or late-harvest Zin that has residual sugar, and pretty much no cheese works. Aged Gouda maybe because of the saltiness. But there is the old standby that will work, Reggiano Parmesano. Italy's premium parmesan does very well with the sweeter tasting reds. Just have fun at Shibucho as a wine dinner or omakase like Rafi had, or ask for sushi only if you want to compare it with other sushi restaurants. Echigo charges a preposterous $15 corkage fee, and the chef knows nothing of wine, does not try to match his food with wine. Shige is a wine collector who also owns a Japanese restuarant that does do good sushi, but does much more than that. Fact of the matter is that most top French chefs may know wine, but they are food chefs first and foremost, even their knowledge of parings do not always work well. French chefs/owners who love wine more than the food they serve, will do better at blending the flavors. Maybe tomorrow I'll fan the flames with more comments about wines/food to those 3 experts, further down this thread; by then it should be down the page far enought that most will ignore it anyway. Have fun, experiment, experiment, experiment; what YOU like best is all that matters. Wed Jul 03 03:29:49 -0700 2002 257622 0 LA Cheesemonger 7 257654 LA cheesemonger, No, my maiden name did not start with a B. Thanks for the sake suggestions. My husband and I recently attended a sake class but we did not come away from it feeling that we had learned much of anything. The selections were good but the information was poorly presented. I wondered about sourcing Copper River salmon here in L.A. so thanks for mentioning Santa Monica Seafood. I'll keep that in mind for next year. This year, our son ordered C.R. King, C.R. Sockeye, C.R. smoked salmon (king, I believe) along with live and smoked mussels from Pike Place Fish in Seattle. (He used to live in Seattle and did we ever feast when we went to visit him.) We grilled all of the above (except for the smoked mussels and smoked salmon) on Father's Day here at our house. The king was simply gorgeous and very thick. I froze a small section of it that we had not grilled. I served it last week and it was still divine despite having been frozen. We had some at Water Grill several times last month and, while it was very good, it didn't hold a candle to what we ordered from Seattle. Funny that you should mention St. Agur. It's my husband's favorite bleu cheese and we are getting a wheel today. His taste differs from mine in that he prefers to drink the wines that you suggest while I prefer a Passito or other good dessert wine with it. My very favorite combo though is Epoisse with a nicely aged Burgunday. For me, that is sheer heaven. My husband is always in seventh heaven when we walk into a restaurant that has a good variety of cheeses. Water Grill downtown falls into that category. I thought he had gotten lost a few years ago when we were dining in a restaurant in D.C. Turned out that he spied their cheese cellar and was being given a tour of it. It was worth the wait; we were presented with an awesome cheese assortment and all of it was perfectly aged. So far, I have not encountered a restaurant in L.A. that has a cheese cellar, so we pretty much have one of our own in the form of one large drawer in the refrigerator that is used exclusively by my husband for cheese. The humidity isn't ideal but it's better than nothing. Maybe we will get to Echigo or Shibucho next week. This week's restaurant for us will be a return visit to Cobras and Matadors which I think I first read about on this board. Wed Jul 03 13:19:54 -0700 2002 257643 0 Barbara 8 257658 Hi Barbara, The COPPER RIVER SALMON answer is LA FISH at Stanford and 4th in Downtown LA. 8.25 a pound for KING CR Salmon(in season) is a little less than 24- a pound at Santa Monica Seafood. You do have to take the whole fish though and they will filet it for you. If you need St Agur go to Peacock Cheese in Vernon and do a W/C as a Caterer and the price will be 60 percent less than any other source. I had a very inconsistant lunch at Echigo yesterday, some items were FANTASTIC and others were old and fishy, like the Hamachi and Albacore. Your better off to stick to Nozawa. Four Oaks was great last night, tasting menu(4hours). Water Grill 2-3 weeks ago was off their game on the tasting menu plus 2 corked White burgs. Wed Jul 03 14:09:54 -0700 2002 257654 0 russkar 9 257668 Thanks for the source info. Are you in the food business? Sorry to hear that Water Grill was off the mark when you were there; it is our favorite downtown restaurant. Can't blame them for the corked wines though; that can happen to anyone (and often does to me!!). We usually take our own wine there. They have an excellent list but their markup is a bit much. Even at $20 corkage, we are ahead of the game. At any restaurant, we usually order one bottle from the list as a courtesy to the restaurant. At Water Grill, they waive corkage 1 for 1; i.e., order one from list, no corkage on one bottle of your own. I would love to read details of your dinner at Four Oaks. We drive by there all the time and keep meaning to return after not having been there for more than 10 years. Wed Jul 03 16:13:10 -0700 2002 257658 0 Barbara 10 257675 No one was more unhappy than me about the last Water Grill dinner especially after the HUGE deserved build up I gave it 2 months ago, which they were unable to repeat. Naturally I don't blame them for corked wines it just so happened that it was par for the course that faithful night. I almost NEVER get corked there or anywhere else and I agree with your buy a bottle off the list concept, it's only fair. At Four Oaks just do the tasting menu for 85- and I think you'll be very happy. Golden Truffle on Fri for lunch. Wed Jul 03 18:33:03 -0700 2002 257668 0 russkar 11 257680 O.K., that it; the next non-shushi restaurant that we will go to (after this Friday's Cobras & Matadors) will be Four Oaks. We did try to go there a few months ago but they were going to be closed to the public the night we wanted to go. I hope you let Water Grill know how you felt about your dinner that night. I know one of the managers there (from previous restaurants) and he is very conscientious about the quality of the food as well as the service. I am in awe of your ability to entertain so many people at one time. We used to host fairly large parties, but never THAT large. Having reached "old" age, I prefer intimate dinner parties of 8 people. My favorite though is almost every Friday night when we have dinner with another couple with whom we have been friends for many years. We alternate between their house and ours and it's an "anything goes" evening. Sometimes we pair the wines with the food but, just as often, we select wines to try and then decide on the menu. Interesting table decor is appreciated but not required. The table is almost always better dressed than we are! Wed Jul 03 19:21:06 -0700 2002 257675 0 Barbara 12 257691 Imagine PAPER PLATES, Plastic Silverware? It's about food only!( our help is very grateful, imagine the amount of plates?) I know 4 present waiters and 2 past employees of the WG and I plan to return but it has slid from it's once recent lofty postion, period! We dine with the PAST sommelier, PAUL regularly! We stay across the street at Checkers normally once a week, so WG is very convenient, I'll return soon. Wed Jul 03 23:33:26 -0700 2002 257680 0 russkar 10 257676 I'm not in the food business but we entertain all the time. Last week 80 then 200, you never know, tomorrow is only 60, cooking is a hobby. I buy direct (from food wholesalers) all the time for the last 20 years. Wed Jul 03 18:38:03 -0700 2002 257668 0 russkar 1 257445 So it's from my name that I get my taste for expensive food items... Thanks for a great tip -- whether it was addressed to me or my caviar slinging namesake. I'm overdue for a return trip to shibucho. Perhaps tonight is the night, although it might mean ditching the friend I was supposed to dine with. (His tastes run more towards House of Pies. Then again, he's big on dessert...) Cheesemonger: do you sell at the Cheese store of Bev Hills? Where can we sample your wares? Sat Jun 29 16:33:06 -0700 2002 257431 0 Rafi 1 257474 would also like to hear the details of your special multi-coure meal from last week? what dishes did you have if you can remember besides of course the foie gras and toro (and i'll definitely have to try sushi wasabi for the toro, two pieces for 5 bucks is literally a bargain, whereas at shibucho two pieces will set you back about 12 bucks if i remember correctly from the last time i was there). also, does he charge a corkage if you bring your own wines and such? because last time i checked his wine list most of the bottles were in the range of a 150 to about 300 bucks on average. Sun Jun 30 12:44:08 -0700 2002 257431 0 kevin 2 257631 Kevin, after 3 bottles in decanters, my friend and I drank about 1 and 1/4 each---paid for it dearly the next day, did my best zombie/Keith Richards impression, dark sun glasses, cigarette butt hanging from the mouth, a bottle of Jack Daniels in one hand...the living, walking dead. Took the entire Sunday to recover. Must have been 4-5 different toro items, starting with the sashimi budget buster. Midway had these tiny shot glass sized bowls of toro sashimi with salmon roe on top, with a liquified uni sauce poured over it. Later Shige gave us some white fish sushi and toro handrolls to finish, but I only ate half as I saved room for dessert, which turned out to be for that night, a 4 item platter which included a piece of tiramisu, 2 other cakes, chocolate sauce on one, a scoop of strawberry and peach(Japanese peaches) mousse. As for wines, again since I know a friend of Shige's I cannot say what the corkage would be(just call and ask, indicating what bottles you wish to bring), or whether or not Shige will even be offended by that...hard to say with these peculiar chefs. I do not eat a Shibucho very often, too expensive for me, even when we get a nice set price which is usually $40(sometimes it's a great bargain, sometimes not so much, but 3 bottles at a corkage fee of $15 would mean we are basically eating for free!). I only lurk on these boards once every 3 or 4 months, too busy to spend hours on cyberspace...life is too short. So like I said to Rafi, go for it. The foie gras reduction sauce was unmemorable, but it was at the dinner we had with 1984 Domaine du Trevalon and 1981 Beaucastel; which was proably a good choice for us as Shige was doing lots of tomato based dishes which worked with the wines. I think(this was last October) it was a very rich sauce that came with half a lobster. It was only on a query to Shige that he told us there was foie gras in that sauce. If you have a yen for foie gras, then bite the bullet and ask Shige to give to you. I've tried caviar dozens and dozens of times over the years, but I rarely actually buy it for myself. Maybe 2 or 4 oz. to go with champagne over the holidays, but the excellent beluga(it varies from tin to tin) they had in the Cheesestore is priced at $59/oz...ouch!(and that is about the average market price these days, it's much more expensive at Gelson's). So I think you may find the same principle at work with foie gras, or black or white truffles. But for me, a certifiable chocoholic, when I need a chocolate truffle fix, I go get a few pieces at Neuhuas in the Beverly Center(the better Belgian chocolates are not imported into the US...Wittamer, Mary and the likes....but I have friends of friends that live there, that I insist they buy me a pound or so to bring over when they visit the states). Neuhaus costs $44/lb., but I have to have something halfway decent. Shibucho isn't really a sushi restuarant for wine enthusiasts, and he varies his preparations by what's available seasonally or what he feels like doing on any particular week. So what I had will not correlate to what you will get, or what I might get next week if I eat there again. I thought I read last year that someone said you don't get a menu at Shibucho, so how is it you remember $12 for toro(and was it otoro or chu-toro?). Reason I ask is, while I have never seen a menu, when we went to Echigo with the Shibucho waitress, she thought Echigo was more expensive, noting that the Big Eye that week was $10, and that Shige 'always' has toro at no more than $8.50(and she would tell us, ever so often, when the toro was at it's best). I had intended to make that Toro man on a mission as a sort of challenge to you or others to try the same frenetic journey to all of your favorite sushi places, and do something like a daily fishing report...remembering that toro varies month to month, week to week, and even day to day. Stay away from the wine geeks/cork heads conversation below, but read my thoughts surely to incite more flames from the so-called experienced/expert people. Tue Jul 02 23:35:02 -0700 2002 257474 0 LA Cheesemonger