Knives - how long should that puppy be?

[Cookiefiend]

I have a 6" Wusthof, and I love it... now.

When I first bought it, I had newby knife-fright, holy-crap-I'm-gonna-cut-my-finger-off, scaredy cat blues. Now, while my knife skills are nothing to write home about, I'm practically a whiz with this knife and I'm considering a new one.

Thursday, at my favorite restaurant, in my favorite place, I watched the chef work his knife magic. Now he had a bayonet sized knife - I don't need that - but it made me think, maybe I need (bwaahahahahaha...) a longer knife.

Would you (oh lovely chowhounds) recommend I step up to an 8" knife or a 10". My credit card eagerly awaits...

:-)

TIA

[Kelli2006]

A 8" knife is the standard for most people, unless you are especially tall, but there are always exceptions. Sara Moulton on the Food network uses a 12" knife, even though she is 5 tall. I think it looks like she is trying to use Excalibur, but it seems to work for her.

I have a 2x 6" 2x 8" knives and a 10", but I tend to use the 6" carbon steel french knife at home, as it is the most maneuverable. The collecting of knives is almost endemic to equipment addicted foodies.

[Cookiefiend]

When I bought the 6", at a local foodie haven, they pointed me to the 8" originally, but it didn't feel right. Maybe only because I wasn't used to a longer knife.

When you say 'especially tall", what do you mean? I ask because I am especially tall... does that mean a longer knife would be better - though your Sara Moulton reference suggests not necessarily so.

Maybe the 8" should be next...

'The collecting of knives is almost endemic to equipment addicted foodies.'
This really made me laugh! I think I'm in trouble!

[Kelli2006]

I am 5-10" and while I have and love my 8", I find it is more useful for commercial production work than for the precise work in small portions that I do at home.

I have heard that is is common to use a knife that is about the same length as the distance from you elbow to your wrist, but that is only a estimate.

Forschner makes a very nice stamped knife for a reasonable price,as does other makes of knives that are made offshore.

[Candy]

I'm 5'4" and am most comfortable with my 8". If I went by the rule of length from wrist to elbow that would have me using my 10" which I rarely use. I sell knives and I usually suggest that they not be purchased as gifts unless you really know the giftees preferences. Knives are such a personal decision. The weight, feel in your hand etc. If you are trying to decide on a new knife go to a store that sells them and bring along a stalk of celery or a carrot and see if they will let you try them out. If they won't, go someplace else.

[Sam Fujisaka]

Stick with your 6" and buy your SO some flowers or a nice dinner.

[Cookiefiend]

I bet Mr CF would appreciate that - probably more than a new knife..

"Look Honey! It's a new knife!!"

;-)

[a priori]

On one of her Food Network shows, Sara Moulton explained why she favored longer chef’s knives. She felt that the added length transferred more of the ‘work’ from the user to the knife because of the extra heft.

I would think of it more in terms of added leverage reducing the amount of force/energy the user needs to apply. To illustrate the point, what’s easier, slicing hard carrots with a 3” knife or an 8-10” knife? Why?

The other issue about longer knives is how you hold it. If you use a pinch grip (see how Sara Moulton, or Jamie Oliver or Mario Batali grip their chef’s knives, far forward of where the handle meets the blade), you effectively ‘shorten’ the knife and gain greater control. Length also allows for longer single stoke pull-through cuts, if that matters to you (see image).

Also, bigger does not necessarily mean heavier. Some brands are thinner/lighter and thus easier to control despite added length.

I think for versatility, a longer knife is the way to go.

[a priori]

Also, if you were as diminuitive as Sara Moulton, would you use a smaller hammer to hammer some 3" nails?

[chuckl]

knives are a subjective decision. I've got a large, 10 inch solingen chef's knife that's sharp and heavy enough to cut through most things. Most of the time, though, i'm just as likely to reach for a 7 inch santoku or an 9 inch forschners. Where i find length comes in handy is with a slicing knife where you slide the length of the blade through whatever you're cutting. think of your knives as your foodie arsenal and build it up over time. My wife thinks i'm the reincarnation of jack the ripper

[tastelikechicken]

Like all tools, knives of different sizes are designed for different purposes. It's good to have the all purpose go to knife that feels like an extension of your arms.. I have @150 knives ranging in size from 2' to 14 inches in various shapes from a number of companies. And while i certainly have my favorite around knife I'll put it down and pick up another if I change tasks. I am certainly not suggesting you go and and spend thousands on knives. But i do think a home cook should have several goo quality knives to handle most tasks. You don't need to buy the most expensive. Buy what feels comfortable in your hand. Lighter knives are generally made for delicate work. Global is a brand that is lighter, extremely sharp and not the best choice for home cooks as a basic knife. I would suggest buying a German Chef's knife, an 8 or 10 inch. These have a deep or wide blade which is perfect for that rocking motion you see chefs do. by rocking the knife you are conserving energy and leting the weight of the knife do the work

[Cookiefiend]

When I was watching the chef and talking to him about knives, what I noticed most was the rocking motion you spoke of... I can't do that. My 6" Wusthof (it is a chef's knife) is a marvelous knife, a good weight in my hand and a good knife. But I feel it could be better.

Tomorrow, I think a trip to my favorite local kitchen store is in the plan - Joy will be happy to see me.

[tastelikechicken]

It's does take some practice to do. Put the knife on your hand and choke up abit towards the front of the handle like a basball player does on a bat. Put the thinner part towards the tip on a cutting board
and gently push foward and then pull back. as you pus foward the knife comes down, pull back the knife comes up but the foward part stays on the board. try doing this withou cutting anything. It's just practice. When you think you can start simple, 1 stalk of celery round side up. don't worry about the size of the cuts, just try and cut. keep at it and you will do it.

[aburitoro]

German knives are thicker, which tend to get wedged when slicing potatoes, pumpkins, or other dense root veggies. My thin Japanese blades glide through such items, and the lighter weight is far less fatiguing (though probably insignificant to the home chef).

[rerem]

I am a volume prep guy at work. I use a light/sharp/quick knife,a longer 10" (Forscner 430-10) as a main knife when length + leverage matter. The 8 1/2" Kai/Kershaw Wasabi Deba is a single edge and that-and a rather beefy blade gives it some great power when I have 70 lb of half frozen beef to seperate or 30 chickens to quarter. What's odd is that that blade can do that and still be so sharp it's good for mincing herbs. i find that while single edge has advantages,when I need to slice things even-it tends to slice a bit of an arc.

Point is....you can do more with 3 good $25 knives than with one $75 knife.

[Cookiefiend]

You're right - cutting carrots would be much easier with a longer knife...

I don't think I would need it so much for longer single stroke pull through cuts, but I sometimes think I should try a longer knife so that I could keep it on the board better - does that make sense?

I have a Global knife (also a 6"), but find myself reaching for the Wusthof the most - it's a bit 'heavier' in feel.

Interesting...

Edit - apologies... this is supposed to be a response to a priori - dunno what I did!

[a priori]

From Chad Ward (author of a forthcoming book on kitchen knives):

"The best perspective on using a bigger knife came from an interview I recently did with Sara Moulton, executive chef for Gourmet, cookbook author and host of a couple of cooking shows. If you haven't seen her, she's 5'0" and weighs 115 pounds soaking wet -- very petite. However, you should see her go to town with her 10" Wusthof! She pointed out that she is at a physical disadvantage in the kitchen. When she was at the CIA or working in restaurants, the male cooks could power through their prep work on sheer physicality. She had to be smarter. She got a bigger knife. By leveraging the weight of the knife and it's extended reach she could out-cut any guy in the kitchen -- with more precision and less effort. "

"That 10" knife puts you on equal footing with the big boys. It gives you the same power in the kitchen." Sara Moulton

[RGC1982]

Funny you should mention Sara Moulton's knife! I usually reach for an 8" Henkel's chef's knife, which is very comfortable in my hands, but have recently been toying with the idea that a 10 incher might be better in some situations. I never thought it had anything to do with height, but rather what is comfortable in your hands. When I saw what Sara was using last week, I quickly got over my reservations, (I am not afraid of knives and have good knife skills), and I am going to start looking at bigger options. I am currently trying to decide if I like a 9" hollow ground chef's knife, a 10" Shun Ken Onion, or a 10" Shun Classic. I've even started looking at beautiful and expensive authentic Japanese knives on-line but since I can't see how they feel in my hands, I am probably not going to buy any.

[tomishungry]

Depends what you're doing with it.

I wore out a 8" sabatier.

Now I've got a 10" Wusthof, a 8" global and a chinese cleaver. The global is great for light veggie work and precision meat cutting. The Wusthof is fantastic for speed over precision, since it's heavier and harder to maneuver than the smaller and lighter global. I'm also comfortable with the Wusthof and the Dexter Russell cleaver hacking through chicken bones and assorted other light bones, whereas I feel the Global will get chipped going through anything that heavy. Now I've got an easy 135 blades to go.

The cleaver is great for all purpose work, especially going through something deep, like a whole head of cabbage. You can slice through that while maintaining better control than either of the first two, since the thin, tall blade keeps going straight while the lighter global blade is hard to force through the cabbage (or other veggie). The relatively thick blade of the Wusthof is hard to force through a big veggie like a hard squash or cabbage. After a while, you feel like you're forcing a wedge through the food, rather than cutting it.

So...go crazy and buy a couple of good blades. If you're at the point where you're wondering about supplementing your 6" blade, you're ready for a 8" or 10" blade. You'll be pleasantly surprised how much more effective it is on larger tasks. Then you'll start wondering "how much easier will a 10" make this". The toyquest continues.

The specialty blades are a discussion for a different day.

Tastelikechicken, you are now my new hero. I'm showing your post to my wife when she starts questioning my new kitchen toys.

[Cookiefiend]

Thanks everyone for your input!

I had an interesting conversation with the owner of the local Kitchen/Foodie Gotta Have It store. We looked at the 8" and the 10", talked about what knives I already have and what would be the best bet for me.

At first I was only going to get the 8", but then I asked about cleavers, because I've run into problems chopping things like cabbage and squash - would a cleaver be better for those types of things? He felt that the 10" would be a better bet since I could hold the end (carefully) for extra leverage. He said that he used his that way at home, and at the shop as well, when cutting into a large wheel of cheese. As an added plus, he said that when cooking on the grill I would be less likely to burn myself when checking the done-ness of a steak - the longer knife would prevent that... o'course I don't check for done-ness that way... I press on it like a sensible girl. ;-)

I bought the 8" chefs knife with the little oval thingys (supposed to prevent drag?) and the 10" chefs knife. I tried them both today while chopping celery, carrots and onions for soup - the 10" was a wonder. I felt like a pro!

Thanks again for all your help!

PS - for curiosity's sake, I measured the distance between my elbow and wrist, it's 10 1/2 inches! I'm 6' tall, but small boned and thin. I think that's why I got along so well with the 6" for so long. Stepping up now!

[chuckl]

thanks for the thread and the post, Cookie, it inspired me to work with my 10-inch chef's knife again and i discovered the extra length does come in handy. I'm going to try to use it a lot in the near future on a variety of chopping tasks. Even though the longer chefs knives seem to be a little intimidating, if they're well balanced and sharp i think you can become a veritable human cuisinart (albeit with more uniform results)

[Cookiefiend]

:-)

something to look forward to!

Thanks for your help!

[tastelikechicken]

The "oval thingys" are called Kullenschilffs( say that 5 times fast!!!!) And yes they are meant to break surface tension and reduce drag. A suggestion for your next knife would be a Wusthof Santuko with the Kullens, a great around knife.

Edit: On another thread there is a conversation about cleavers. as i said there I don't think most home cooks need to have one, It is much too dangerous for someone who is not comfortable with their knife skills. I have a large carbon steel cleaver that I might use 2-3 times a year. I even took it out of my knife case at work cause I never use it. save the money and get the Santoku I mentioned above

[Cookiefiend]

I saw that post too and thought about posting what Mel told me yesterday at his store. I did ask about it, but it's so wicked looking (vivid imagination kicks in, sees fingers flying because personal eye-hand coordination is not so hot), I wondered if it would be a good idea. That's when he recommended the 10" and told me about the extra leverage the 10" would give me over the cleaver.

We also talked about the Santoku. I had used one in someone else's kitchen a couple of weeks ago - it didn't work well, but in honesty that could have been because it was dull as heck. Mel thought the Santoku was a good knife for chopping but that the chefs knives were more versitile. I love it when the owner of the shop can tell me something like that - not 'oh you should buy this one too!', but whats best for me.

Naturally, I'll be keeping the Santoku in mind...

:-)

[flourgirl]

I have a few knives but I use my 10" Forschner the most. When it first arrived I remember thinking "Oh boy, I think I really overdid it this time" - it just looked huge and scary. But it turned out to be just right for me. I do have a 6" wusthof that I use occasionally, but I love that 10" knife. :)

[Cookiefiend]

It's a reallllly long looking knife - but it was something else.

Mr CF is going to see that and give me that look that says "Should I be worried?"

"Of course not, honey", as I pull it out of its sheath and start honing it...

;-)

[flourgirl]

Hee hee. I got the exact same look from Mr. FG.

Most of my friends also look at me a little cross eyed when they see that baby for the first time.

[Sam Fujisaka]

Good evening, everyone. My name is Sam and I'm a recovering knife-aholic.

It started with my 7" used sabatier; and for a long time we were happy. But then I don't know what happened. I had to have more. Seduced by anything else. Of course, I went German, but not just your run of the mill German--not Henckels or any other dreck. I had to have Dick. First a $100 6", but that was not enough. An 8" $100 Dick! That led to a 10" (but at least a Lamson Sharp). Even an East German Kuppels from KaDeBe. And many, many more over time.

But these brought me no happiness. It was all in vain. Thanks to Bejesus, when I awoke and saw the light, my old Sabatier was still there and waiting, sharper than a razor and so faithfully quick to work!

And we've since been befiended and aided by those that others might reject: a 6" heavy but inexpensive cleaver from China, a thin 6" Sabatier on sale in the UK for filleting fish, a heavy $3 Latin American carbon steel 6" for cutting ribs, a $1.00 5" carbon steel Tramontina from Brasil for general work.

One day at a time...

[Cookiefiend]

lol

I won't go too crazy with knives... but I might 'need' a couple more...

No wonder you told me to take Mr CF out for a nice dinner instead - yours is a cautionary tale!

[Caroline1]

It's interesting to read these theories about a person's height and knife length. I'm still pondering that one.

In chef's knives, I have a 6", an 8", and a 10" Sabatier. Which do I use most? The ten incher. Why? Because it gives me the length of edge and rocking motion I need for just about any cutting job I can think of. Great for dicing celery ribs or slicing whole carrots. Has the blade length to give me the height to tackle both. Next most commonly used in the six inch chefs. I have all sorts of boning, butcher, ham slicers, paring and fileting knives. They all get used every once in a while. The poor 8 inch Sabatier probably feels like an orphan.

Nah. I don't think height has much to do with knife preference. I think it's the slicing power that a specific length gives you. I can even slice a whole cucumber with my 10 inch chef's knife without having to lift the handle too far off the cutting board and making it a cumbersome operation.

I do wonder what happened to my wonderful carbon steel Chinese cleaver. It made certain kinds of slicing and dicing easy. It just disappeared. I keep looking at new ones but can't find one that feels right. Oh, well. Maybe some day.

[tomishungry]

Dexter for chinese cleavers.

[mpalmer6c]

Whatever you're comfortable with. I inherited an antique 10-inch carving knive which performed fine despite its age. But it was so ong I tended to knock things over when I used it. So I bought an 8-inch Global carver and found it works great for chopping, too. I've found that and a 5-inch Forschner utility knife will handle anything I do.

[rerem]

I work at a college dining hall where we whack up a case of Zuchinni,then mince up 10 buns of Cilantro,then slice up 80 lb of beef or slice a case of mushrooms in a typical day.
I have a 10" Forschner that's my all-round. This has a nice mix of sharp and rugged. It's got leverage and balance and weighs no more than a 6" Henckel I leave at home. The other cooks in house all love my trusty Forschner so I lend it when I'm not using it. I use a Kai/Wasabi 8 1/2 deba as by "brute force" knife but it also gets sharp enough for just about any job. I have a Kershaw 7700 clad 7" This is the sharpest and of my main knives-lightest. None of these were big $,but if you know how to sharpen-they are great blades. For home-I'd prefer an 8" to a 10",I'm not doing volume and am not using a big cutting board. A longer knife can do a rocker chop,leaving the tip on the board and rapidly chopping or push slicing with the heel. A bigger knife will also bounce-chop better-has the weight to spring off the board setting up the next cut. I use a half dozen or more "styles" of cutting,including using 2 knives in one hand and using my other hand on the top of the blades to "dribble" like a basketball while the hand holding the handles provides a spring effect. Fast way to fine chop a bunch of parsley.

Most FORGED knives,notably German made-tend to be rather heavy. When you get up to 10" or 12" it's a lot of weight to handle. Forschner's stamped knife is lighter,quicker,has great feel and balance. A freind has the 8" version and I used it last week house-sitting and that's nice for a "home" knife. I prefer the Rosewood handle Forschner to the Fibrox,in part for the look-but more because I have used a 10" Forschner for 30 years in kitchens with the wood handle.

[rerem]

I got a Lamson Chineses Cleaver-and it's >>> that the Dester one of the other cooks has. There's a Hong Kong made CCK carbon cleaver that's a legendary low $ but sharp blade but you can't get one easily outside of buying direct in Chinatown. No doubt Shun's cleaver is sweet but BIG $. I found that the broad blade of a cleaver does not work as well for me as a 10" French,but what it does very well is scoops up stuff i cut up with my small 7" Kershaw. One of the other guys I work with loves to use that Lamson cleaver. Lamson put an arc in the heel that puts your grip in a better place than you'd get in the typical rectangle blade cleaver....it also holds it's edge quite well.

[chefgimmick]

Go to Korin Japanese knife company or JB Prince and buy a good quality carbon steel knife that is about 270 mm long...9.5 inches. You can get a good quality knife for around 100 dollars. They are razor sharp, and they are easy to controll, very light. I like the gyotu style. It is the most versatile. Recommended brands, Misono, Masahiro, Masamoto, Tojiro(inexpensive), and globals are not bad. I quit using european knives in about 98 and never looked back.

[scubadoo97]

I have a Tojiro 270mm gyotu from Korin. Tojiro is still one of the best bang for the buck Japanese stainless and when it was on sale it was around $50. 270mm is a good size and in a Japanese knife the weight is less so it's more balanced than an equivalent length German knife. I recently got a 300mm Hiromoto carbon steel gyotu. I was hesitant about the size but really it's not that bad and was also a great buy at around $64 from Hida Tools. There is no one perfect size. Just depends on your needs and how it feels in the hand.

[jeffreyem]

270 = 10.6", 240 is roughly 9.5

[meadandale]

8" Wusthoff classic chef is my kitchen workhorse.

I have also have a 10" Messermeister San Moritz chef knife but I rarely use it except for chopping large quantities of things like herbs.

[vonwotan]

For a long time I have no knoves longer than 7.5" in my kitchen but from time to time, while working with certain foods/ingredients I would wish for something larger. Confused and wondering what would work for me, I'm short with small hands so my leverage at most prep tables is less than optimal. To make the decision I signed myself up for a refresher knife skills class at a local culinary school and tried out several different knives. With an idea of the shape and size I wanted (there were a few) I made a list, spent quite a bit of time browsing and, over the winter, have added four new knives to the drawer. Ranging from a 9.5" chefs knife to an 11" fillet knife - when filleting I frequently drew my shorter knife too far accross the fish and wound up gouging a piece... The longer blade makes up for my less than stellar knife skills.

[rerem]

I recommend th 8" Forschner stamped steel with Rosewood handle. I use the 10" version at work (cook-big volume) but at home,with a smaller board and less stuff to hack up, I'd prefer the 8".......except that after 30 years a Forschner 10 does feel more "natural" to me.

While the Fibrox handle version has the same steel, and a "non slip" grip,the wood handle always had the perfect feel and balance. Yes....you can spend $80,$180 or more,but for that to MATTER you have to be able to sharpen it. MOST folks can't sharpen a $100 knife nearly as sharp as I ALWAYS keep my Forschner.

Find Norton 11" stones ( try ebay or amazon) The Gray Coarse and the reddish Fine India are the ones. Use them water only-no oil. These are the stones used in restaurants
Not too expensive. The thing is...it is MUCH easier to sharpen well on a large stone. Trying to sharpen an 8" chefs on a 6x2 stone is a lot harder,and slower.

Like Forschner Knives,I've used Norton stones since my first cooking job.

Chad Ward's info on sharpening skills is quite good,basically what I'd done for all those years.

[vonwotan]

After trying several knives of all shapes and sizes, and as much as I like some of the japanese knives I am determined to find someone to make me two heavy carbon steel chefs knives, one 10" and one 6". Does anyone have experience with custom bladesmiths for chef's knives? I have a few names but I don't know many people who have gone beyond the usual commercial producers.

[a priori]

For custom made Western style chef's knives, I use Murray Carter. I have them made with carbon steel and clad on both sides with stainless steel (i.e., the blade is triple layer). But he can make all-carbon steel blades also.

The example attached is 6", but made extra wide. You can check out his website for more info, but it usually takes 1-2 years these days for delivery, and they are expensive (~US$500+).