50215 Wed May 08 12:10:01 -0700 2002 26 2 Los Angeles Area 0 253822 As a fairly youngish person with little experience drinking wine, quite frequently I find myself trying to find an decent fairly cheap wine to go with dinner. The challege I've found is that usually I can only afford the middle of road wines, price-wise. Tonight, for instance, after reading the rec's here I'll be heading over to Off Vine for dinner. So, any rec's for a nice and tasty wine to accompany the meal? No, I don't know what I'll be ordering, sorry. But, more in general, for the wine connoisseurs among us, how do us poor students find something good to drink? TIA. Wed May 08 12:10:01 -0700 2002 0 Chow Fish 1 253823 1.Go to a nice Wine Shop and purchase a bottle or two. 2.Pay the Corkage at the restaurant. In LA we are really fortunate that almost all restaurants will allow you to bring in outside wine, excluding wines they have on their wine list of course. Corkage is a small price to pay to get the luxury of drinking something wonderful for 35percent of the wine list price. To be safe always check ahead about the restaurants Corkage policy and wine list selections. I normally take several bottles, just in case. Also, always offer the Sommelier or owner a taste. A decent 25 dollar bottle with 10-15 corkage cost you 40-. To buy a simular bottle off the list may cost 60-75. Some restaurants have very flexible corkage policys like, La Cachette(I believe Mons are NO CORKAGE), The Grill on the ALLEY(15-), Mimosa (2.50ea person?), Morton's (0-15 depending on the managers mood), Pastina Trattoria (0-10 depending on the owners decision,call first)Cafe Camillia in Bellflower(8-) to name a few. The IVY doesn't allow Corkage, period! We went with a few WINE COLLECTING friends by Limo to the IVY to celebrate a birthday. When they wouldn't allow us to bring in our wine we just went out to the LIMO and climbed inside and enjoyed it in there between courses, naturally our driver kept it parked directly in front and we were seated in the FRONT PATIO next to the gate, too easy. Wed May 08 12:34:55 -0700 2002 253822 0 russkar 2 253843 I love the bit about drinking your wine in the limo when the restaurant wouldn't allow BYO. We had dinner at Pinot Bistro in Studio City recently and we were not charged corkage. We did, of course, offer our server tastes of everything we brought. What was especially nice was that he brought the appropriate glasses for each wine. We are going again later this month with some wine friends. When I made the rez, I was again told that we could bring our own wine with no corkage charge. In addition to offering our server tastes and sometimes sending a glass or two to the kitchen, we always tip at a higher %age so that the server doesn't lose out by virtue of our not having ordered from the list. If we are with other people, we almost always order at least one bottle from the list as a courtesy to the restaurant. Wed May 08 17:09:12 -0700 2002 253823 0 Barbara 3 253855 We follow the same etiquette also, offering tastes, larger tips, buy at least a bottle of two from the wine list with a group, etc. BYO shouldn't be a license to take advantage of a restaurant but a courtesy that allows you to enjoy a special bottle of your own with your meal. I frequent the restaurants that WAVE corkage much more than the ones that don't. It's so silly, are restaurants in the Corkage business or the Food business. I was at a dinner with my wine group at the Water Grill a couple of weeks ago and they waved but we also bought a bottle, 97 Bryant for 5 hundred so I guess waving 7 corkages wasn't that tough. Great Dinner. The Laundry doesn't normally wave it's fifty dollar per bottle corkage, but you never know. I think we should create a list of restaurants with good food and Wave Corkage and Post it. I would rather patronize them. When a Wine list is of Good Vintages and "FAIRLY PRICED"(1.7 markup) I think most of us are happy to buy off of it. Unfortunately that's seldom the case. Most of the time a 20-retail bottle becomes 50-70 on a wine list which is unfair. Being in Maui at present I can attest to the most unfair wine pricing in the World, plus they don't allow CORKAGE AT ALL in the Restaurants, I'll be cooking on the Lanai again tonight watching the Whales, with no Corkage charge. Wed May 08 19:17:07 -0700 2002 253843 0 russkar 4 253872 Example: Pacific Whey Cafe in Newport Beach advertises no corkage fee. New restaurants or popular breakfast/lunch restaurants adding dinner service are more likely to have a no corkage fee policy. I'm not too well-traveled ... Are there any cities in the world where restaurants don't discourage patrons from bringing wine (i.e. no fees)? Wed May 08 21:49:15 -0700 2002 253855 0 nubi 5 253874 I live in Newport also and GULFSTREAM is corkage free, Roy's (15-), THE RITZ in Fashion Island (15- or Waived), SAGE (5- or Waived), GOLDEN TRUFFLE(15- or for large parties negotiable). Most Asian restaurants don't charge corkage. Most Thai Restaurants don't. One of my favorite Restaurants in SF (LA FOLIE) has a policy of if you buy a bottle from their list they Waive corkage on your personal bottle. Wed May 08 22:04:52 -0700 2002 253872 0 russkar 6 253904 I have attempted to find a comprehensive list for BYO and was not very successful. However in my area, Silverlake/Los Feliz I go to Il Capriccio, Madame Matisse & Chameau for the no corkage policy. In Pasadena Cafe Bizou has a $2 corkage. In Thai town, you can bring whatever you want into Ruen Pair. See my previous post. Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/48853#244212 Thu May 09 14:34:38 -0700 2002 253874 0 Grog 2 254132 I believe that the free corkage at La Cachette is on Sundays, unless they recently changed their policy. Damn I love that place. Mon May 13 05:07:47 -0700 2002 253823 0 hiyamayama 1 253824 The way to find out what you like (good is subjective) is by tasting. If you can't afford to buy bottles to try at home go to free tastings at wine stores.Or you could find a bar or restaurant with a good selection of wine by the glass. A very good value for a white for seafood is New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc from the Marlborough region.I like Pinot Noir,look for one from the Russian River or Carneros regions."The Wine Avenger" by Gluckstern is helpful for food friendly wines. Wed May 08 12:45:30 -0700 2002 253822 0 howardS 1 253825 Can't help you with Off Vine's list, but here are a few general tips. First, consider by the glass. Yeah, it's marked way, way up, but still, $7-$8 for a glass is less than $25-$40 for a bottle. Depends how much you drink though. Second, consider the second lowest priced wine on the list. That tends to be where conciencous sommeliers and beverage managers put the most work in to find good value wines. Third, steer clear of California Chardonnay, Cab and Merlot, because you're more likely to find values in the less well publicized varieties, most of which are better food wines anyway. So as another Chowhound suggested, with whites try a New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc or a French white Burgundy or an Austrian Gruner Veltliner, with reds try something Italian or from the south of France. Fourth, while most waiters don't know shit about wine, don't be afraid to ask for help from the head wine guy (i.e. sommelier) at any restuarant that has one, and then be frank about what you want to spend and what flavors you like (fruity? spicy? full bodied? lighter bodied?). Fifth, don't be afraid to utilize the corkage option (i.e. bring your own bottle) at places with lists you can't afford. Just call ahead, ask what the lowest price red and white bottles on the list are and ask what the corkage fee is, and with those numbers and some basic arithematic skills, you can figure out what makes sense. Good luck and enjoy. Wed May 08 13:00:42 -0700 2002 253822 0 Donnymac 2 253877 Although I agree with your comments in general I would make one comment: the most popular wines (Chardonnay, Cabernet, Merlot) are the most popular for a reason: they are the easiest to like. While there are obviously an infinity of other great wines, you are safer sticking to the popular ones until you get your feet on the ground. In other words, there are a lot more bad unusual wines than bad popular wines. Wed May 08 22:16:27 -0700 2002 253825 0 Griller141 3 253883 I disagree that the unusual wines are less likely to be good. One thing that we have benefited from the "chemistry" of wine making is that there are actually very few poor wines. The only ones in recent memory were some Eastern European wines. Sangiovese, Primitivo, Pinot Noir and Zinfandel (red) are usually a bargain because everybody buys up all of the Merlot and Cabernet. I have recently found some excellent examples of these wines, aged to perfection '92-'96 for under $30.00 where a 2000 Merlot was over $30.00. Wed May 08 22:43:17 -0700 2002 253877 0 Just Larry 4 253885 I agree that there are "finds" when it comes to less popular wines. There are also many "not great" bottles around too. We could tie up the Board for weeks debating all the good and bad wines. I recently was having a wine dinner with 10 people in Laguna and Kar noticed before anyone else "in the know" that the bottle was corked. Most of our Wine expert friends had not even noticed it, and they collect big time(excess of 10 thousand bottles ea). Even so, some of the people continued to drink it. There are lots of good wines too, but labels don't guarantee anything. Napa wines are most suspect when it comes to aging, there have been many of the Big Names that have seemed to fade. It seems the European and So. American wines hold up the best and certain Vintages for dozens of years. While typing this I'm sipping on 97 Insignia and it's not what it was a year ago, 94 is almost history etc. The days of 85 Heitz Marthas are long gone. Wed May 08 23:18:25 -0700 2002 253883 0 russkar 5 253932 The reason for this is the huge demand for ready to drink wines coupled with the willingness of some markets to exceed reasonable pricing. For example, my 91 Caymus, which IMHO is just beginning to show signs of fading, was in the low $20 upon release. I believe the current vintage 99' is hovering at $70. California wineries are producing fruit forward oak bombs that smell and taste great at release. The tannins and acidity are not geared for longevity. In fact, very few California wines are made with aging in mind. Montelena is one that comes to mind which is old school i.e. likely to last at least a decade or two. The bottom line is people don't mind paying outrageous prices-but they want a ready to drink wine. This is why have opened my cellar outside of the US. Cheers! Thu May 09 18:38:41 -0700 2002 253885 0 Grog 6 253933 I couldn't agree more! Most of your comments are pretty common knowledge as I'm sure your aware. I can't say that I agree with your Caymus 91 just starting to fade, I had some in a vertical about a year ago and it was gone then along with SS. Montelena 97 estate is still rolling but I wouldn't bet the house on it's life-span. I had a bottle of 92 Bryant a month ago, it's history too. Most of my collector friends along with myself are dumping at the auctions as fast as possible anything older than 94-95 Calif Cabs, while there still worth something. Thu May 09 18:50:48 -0700 2002 253932 0 russkar 7 253948 I am no expert but I know what I like. Generally I prefer wines that are 5-6 years old. They seem to have settled down and are smoother to drink and enjoy. I think it is a tannin thing. How do you tell if a wine is corked? I have heard the term for years but I doubt that I could detect it. Thu May 09 20:52:00 -0700 2002 253933 0 Just Larry 8 253955 It's normally very obvious and the wine when swirled will have a cork aroma instead of fruit. I like wines that are aged anywhere from 2-40 years depending on the Style. Unfortunately, most Calif Cabs and others like Pinots, Syrahs aren't holding up except in Rare cases. This doesn't mean that all European Wines are typically Stellar, but the big Names, good and great vintages typically go the distance. Thu May 09 21:31:02 -0700 2002 253948 0 russkar 9 254009 Cork taint comes from a compound called tca. It is actually not always very obvious as wine can be barely tainted or very tainted, the amount not really "increasing" in the wine. People have different sensitivity to it, even with experience. It is a corky/ wet-carboardy kinda smell & taste. Don't want to bicker but there are certainly lots of Cal cab-based wines that age well beyond the 5 year mark. Dunn, Ridge, Montelena, Heitz, BV Latour, etc etc etc are all drinking well at the 10+ mark, with wines as the Heitz Martha's 74 still fantastic. If one believes the 97 Montelena is at its plateau, one clearly loves very young wine. (nothing wrong with that). I'd hardly say that South American wine is any more ageworthy, or has any track record to demonstate such. Bordeaux yes, but they are also adopting an earlier drinking style at many chateau. I can't recall how donnymac put it but there are usually better values to be found in lesser names and regions (Rhone, Central Coast etc). The big, popular wines & regions are rarely put on a list at less than the highest mark-up, whereas the lessers may be "discounted". Fri May 10 20:23:37 -0700 2002 253955 0 john gonzales 10 254023 We had the 74-85 Martha's for New Years a while back and your right they are drinking great and have a retail value of around 500- per bottle or more, so they should be fantastic. I'm talking about most of the other ten's of millions of bottles that haven't faired as well. Sat May 11 01:40:24 -0700 2002 254009 0 russkar 11 254053 Yes, you're right that most aren't 20 year agers, though I still think in good vintages (97,95,94,91,90,85) ten years is not a problem for the bigger wines. Seems like ten is mandatory for the Dunn wines. Some of the 91 cabs (even lower level bottlings) are really good still. Of course it depends on your preference as some of the fruit definitely drops off. I prefer them at the 4-8 window, whereas my wife (a wino too) is more like 3-5. To me the big advantage that great Cal cab wines have is that they can be excellent at release, or at 10 years; as opposed to the Bordeauxs which are really a waste to drink without 5 years min. in the bottle. Cheers. Sat May 11 21:54:26 -0700 2002 254023 0 john gonzales 10 254064 For people who are not very sensitive to TCA, with experience, one can learn to recognize the damage that the compound does to a wine even when it doesn't smell very tainted. This can be called "flavor scalping". The TCA will submerge the flavor and aroma of the wine and make it seem like a big part of it has been cleaved off. The wine will be far less expressive than an untainted bottle. Sun May 12 02:32:09 -0700 2002 254009 0 Melanie Wong 7 253969 The 51 and 68 BV Private Reserves are still on plateau, assuming proper storage. Ditto the 71 and 77 Ridge Montebello. This isn't an exhaustive list, but merely 4 examples of Calif wines that were made to age. Not that I find cabernet all that food friendly. Although I do appreciate those "collectors" that snap up the latest overoaked offerings overhyped by "commentators" that don't know their Alsace from their Albas, while leaving delicious Burgundies and German Rieslings languishing on the shelves for me to purchase at relative bargain porices. Fri May 10 02:25:03 -0700 2002 253933 0 Peaches En Regalia 7 253996 Russkar my friend-oh how I beg to differ on the older cal cabs. I had both an 89 Sequoia Grove Res and 90 Jordan last night. The Jordan was still strong with the oak & tannin beautifully integrated and the fruit was still alive. Although an off year, the SG was again a fine example of a well aged Cal Cab., though a bit oaky for my taste. Cheers! Fri May 10 16:27:48 -0700 2002 253933 0 Grog 8 254022 We don't disagree. There are still good older wines. I'm just saying that the wines(cabs) since 94 have what appears to be a shorter age potential. One never knows until you open the bottle. Sat May 11 01:31:58 -0700 2002 253996 0 russkar 9 254033 This seems to be an unintended consequence of all those marketing surveys that "showed" that 90+% of all wine is consumed within 2 hours of purchase. One may question the accuracy of this, but clearly there's not much delayed gratification with most wine buyers. Sat May 11 12:04:37 -0700 2002 254022 0 mc michael 1 253829 I recommend the ABSOLUTE BEGINNERS wine class at the Wine House. It is two hours in the evening and costs like $35. You will taste 8 or 9 wines and get to know more about wine than most of the general public. It will expand your wine awareness and take some of the mystery / intimidation out of it. It is also very fun. Invite some friends to join you, you'll learn a lot and have a blast. WINE HOUSE 2311 Cotner Avenue Los Angeles, CA 90064-1877 Phone: 310-479-3731 Wed May 08 13:21:55 -0700 2002 253822 0 Marco Polo 1 253831 A co-worker went to Off Vine this past Monday for lunch and got food poisoning. I don't remember exactly what he ate but it was a fish dish. Apparently, he was the only person in a party of 4 to get sick. Beware. Wed May 08 14:01:19 -0700 2002 253822 0 Claudine Too