498835 Thu Mar 13 15:07:42 -0700 2008 23 34 Wine 0 3490220 I see that INAO today approved adding 40 villages to the Champagne AOC, already one of the France's largest. Hmmm? Thu Mar 13 15:07:43 -0700 2008 13690 Sam B 1 3490820 There are huge emerging markets in Asia. It's inevitable. Thu Mar 13 18:26:07 -0700 2008 3490220 26180 Chinon00 2 3491193 Yes, Champagne is a wine that would be accessible to Asian tastes that are not used to wine. Also. it would be less likely to clash with the cuisine, and could probably match with the different cuisines better than some whites and many reds. Plus it has that status appeal and brand recognition thing going on. You are correct, huge emerging markets in Asia are inevitable. Thu Mar 13 20:47:25 -0700 2008 3490820 89969 moh 2 3491848 Champagne Exports: Total: 150.9m bottles UK: 38.9m bottles US: 21.7m bottles Japan: 9.1m bottles Russia: 1.03m bottles China: 656,000 bottles Fri Mar 14 06:45:56 -0700 2008 3490820 28122 zin1953 3 3492220 I don't know the regional breakdown but per the article noted below: "With soaring world demand for the wine, permission to make champagne is almost a licence to print money. World consumption rose more than 5 per cent to reach a record 339 million bottles last year with booming demand from the newly affluent Asia and Russia. Britons retain their ancient rank as the biggest champagne drinkers after the French." SEE http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/food_and_drink/wine/article3548465.ece Thanks Fri Mar 14 08:36:34 -0700 2008 3491848 26180 Chinon00 4 3492766 No one is arguing the increased demand doesn't exist. The question is: will this really affect the quality of what's in the bottle? For me, the answer will be in that bottle, and not found anywhere else. Fri Mar 14 10:35:16 -0700 2008 3492220 28122 zin1953 2 3492326 It is not as simple as adding acreage to meet demand – nearly half of the current grape production in the AOC is routinely distilled As Deep Throat said, “follow the money”. The real story here is the immense impact on the value of the land in question (a potential increase in value of more than $10 Billion!) and the ensuing lobbying that will be part of the public portion of the analysis of potential additions. For an informative, and I think balanced article … www.wine-pages.com/guests/tom/champagne-expansion.htm I for one will enjoy watching the best-oiled marketing machine in all of winedom spin this expansion. How, when you have very successfully established the idea that only wine grown “here”(existing AOC) is worthy of the name Champagne, do you explain adding wine grown “there”(new AOC)? Well, you start by convincing the market that there is a shortage, and that prices will be going through the roof – something the Champenoise have already accomplished. Fri Mar 14 08:57:08 -0700 2008 3490820 13690 Sam B 1 3491303 have to wonder what this says about terroir... Thu Mar 13 21:50:10 -0700 2008 3490220 31795 ibstatguy 2 3491839 If you actually read the (an) article about it -- for instance, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7294487.stm -- you'll see that: 1) Wine experts from the Institut national de l'origine et de la qualite (INAO), which regulates the AOC label, have been mulling over a list of potential additional villages since March 2006. 2) The final decision will need to be approved by the state council, France's highest administrative body, which is not expected to issue a decree until 2009. The INAO will then study potential plots before award planting rights, with consumers not expected to taste the new AOC wines for some 10 years. I'm not all that worried about terroir at this point . . . . Cheers, Jason The region was also expanded in 1927. Good timing, huh? ;^) Fri Mar 14 06:44:49 -0700 2008 3491303 28122 zin1953 3 3492636 IMHO opinion there really isn't that much terroir to be found in most Champagne. The big houses are already blending from so many sites and vintages that house style dominates much more than any amount of terroir ever could. Maybe the very high end single vintage/vineyard stuff has more terroir to it, but I'm unlikely to ever drink enough to notice. Now the grower/producer stuff I've had is the exception, but I doubt this will have much of an impact on that. Fri Mar 14 10:08:12 -0700 2008 3491839 86802 vanillagorilla 4 3492761 This is a HUGELY important point! With the exceptions of the handful of single vineyard (e.g.: Clos des Mesnil, Clos des Goisses) and single village (e.g.: Salon and many of the "new" grower Chamapgnes) Champagnes, VERY FEW individual Champagnes exhibit any sort of terroir at all -- beyond the region as a whole. That is, while there IS a general terroir that sets Champanges apart from, say, California sparkling wines, or even those produced in Alsace and the Loire, very few individual Champagnes originate from a single vineyard or village and thus exhibit the same "sense of place" that a specific 1er Cru Burgundy or individual chateau in Bordeaux displays. Absolutely correct!!! Cheers, Jason Fri Mar 14 10:33:56 -0700 2008 3492636 28122 zin1953 5 3492890 I guess that I fall into the small group of people drinking champagne from growers and, when I get the chance, vineyard designated champagne. I think then that I can fairly weigh in that there are, IMHO, differences. That said, my above comment was equal parts bit tongue in cheek and serious. Jason: as to your observation re Burgundy, you of all people likely appreciate most intimately the argument that there is no more distinct terroir than that of Burgundy. Whether ultimately that is true or is a product of marketing is for another thread perhaps. Best, Fri Mar 14 11:00:21 -0700 2008 3492761 31795 ibstatguy 6 3493129 I'm confused. You sound like you're disagreeing with me, but I can't see a specific point where we disagree . . . Champagne -- as a region -- is clearly distinct from any other area in which methode traditionelle sparkling wines are produced. But WITHIN the wines of Champagne, there is much more the influence of the house itself (among the Grandes Marques) rather than any terroir. That is to say, the differences that exist between -- say -- the n.v. Bruts from Moet & Chandon, G.H. Mumm, Louis Roederer, Bollinger, Taittinger, Perrier-Jouet Joseph Perrier, Charles Heidsieck, Piper Heidsieck, Heidsieck Monopole, et. al. is one of "house style" rather than terroir. This is clearly NOT the case with "grower Champagnes," where terroir definitely can (and typicaly does) play a much greater role. I presume that: 1) if the "new" regions are used by the Grandes Marques, as ChefJune suggests (and at least initially , this would seem likely to be the case), there's little or no terroir to worry about anyway, becuse they (the Grandes Marques) will be blending these crus with 87-and-a-half-million OTHER villages (OK, now that may be a slight exaggeration) ;^) and 2) if indeed these areas are used by single growers, well -- who knows? -- there just may be great terroir out there to be discovered. So, I'm still confused. Do you think we disagree? Fri Mar 14 11:58:41 -0700 2008 3492890 28122 zin1953 7 3494686 we agree. I was just explaining myself a bit (not well clearly). Fri Mar 14 21:19:55 -0700 2008 3493129 31795 ibstatguy 3 3492864 Actually read several articles when this news cropped up a while back. I also think that I read that a few areas are about to be kicked out due to quality issues. Fri Mar 14 10:55:59 -0700 2008 3491839 31795 ibstatguy 1 3492276 Yes, and this is possibly going to wreak havoc with some of the big Champagne houses, who traditionally have purchased either grapes or wine from many of the small growers who are now bottling their own bubbly. Perhaps the inclusion of these further-out towns in the appellation is to provide new "juice" for the big houses? Fri Mar 14 08:49:51 -0700 2008 3490220 52499 ChefJune 2 3492783 I would think this is a very real possibility. With the surge in popularity of "grower Champagnes," some of the major houses are feeling the pinch. Last time I checked, Roederer actually grew something like 74 (84?) percent of their requirements themselves, whereas Moet & Chandon only grew 17 percent -- they have to "feeling the pinch." Since Champagne is the most "manufactured" of French wines, it's quite conceivable that the major houses COULD utilize the grapes/wines from these "outlying areas" for many of their wines with absolutely no drop in quality whatsoever. Cheers, Jason Fri Mar 14 10:39:25 -0700 2008 3492276 28122 zin1953 3 3492861 Sure they could, and will. But why not simply use the tonnage that they are essentially throwing out? Fri Mar 14 10:55:13 -0700 2008 3492783 13690 Sam B 3 3492922 which is a point (manufactured) forcefully argued by Terry Theise and others as to why grower champagnes are a nice contrast to big house champagnes Fri Mar 14 11:07:54 -0700 2008 3492783 31795 ibstatguy 3 3494097 >>>I would think this is a very real possibility. With the surge in popularity of "grower Champagnes," some of the major houses are feeling the pinch.<<<< This is what I've read and what I feel is driving the expanded boundaries. The big houses need more grapes. Fri Mar 14 16:35:38 -0700 2008 3492783 18222 maria lorraine 4 3494691 exactly. Fri Mar 14 21:21:10 -0700 2008 3494097 31795 ibstatguy 1 3493427 Bear with me, I don't have my sources in front of me at the moment, this is all from memory. History of the region notes that some makers & vintners of Champagne in some of the local villages (vilAHHjes) opted out in the 1920s when the current boundaries were established. Some wanted to grow other things, some didn't like the restrictions that were going into place. As a consquence, part of the current process is trying to "reclaim" some of those areas that were lost historically, rather than move into areas which have never grown champagne. The big thing that makes me bite my teeth over it all is the money involved in what is basically a "rezoning" of the land. I hope for goodness sake that the amount of corruption in the process is limited, and that the people who are overseeing it have at least a modicum of actual belief that they are trying to expand the region in a somewhat coherent manner. It is merely my own optimism that I hope a majority of it goes to what become "grower champagne" vintners. Fri Mar 14 13:03:38 -0700 2008 3490220 83832 fussycouple 2 3493658 They have been growing grapes, but because they weren't Appellation controllee, they couldn't be used in Champagne. At least, that's what I understand. Fri Mar 14 14:05:15 -0700 2008 3493427 52499 ChefJune 3 3494176 I wouldn't bet money that some of those grapes have not been used to make Ch. or am I just an old cynic. What did interest me during my last 2 visits to the area '04 & '06 was land on upper slopes of the Marne being "re-profiled". Huge diggers altering the "terroir". Replacing &/ or redistributing the soil types. Also wooded areas high on the left bank being cleared, I assume, to grow vines in areas previously considered less desirable. "Licence to print money"??? Fri Mar 14 17:14:17 -0700 2008 3493658 134599 legume