498328 Wed Mar 12 08:00:13 -0700 2008 58 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 3484911 It seems that the preferred way to cook pasta is 'al dente', but I can't bring myself to make it that way. The texture of it seems too pasty, or chewy. I cook pasta until it has a much lighter texture (I guess mushy is the only way to describe it). I'm sure it's because that's the way my parents cooked it when I was growing up. Can someone explain the 'al dente' thing to me? I've stopped ordering pasta in restaurants because it's almost always undercooked (unless it's in a baked dish, which seems to negate my aversion). But, I would like to give it a try again with some background as to why it's preferred. Is it just me, or are there other over-boiled pasta lovers out there? Wed Mar 12 08:00:13 -0700 2008 99358 Reston 1 3484961 I like pasta cooked al dente because it has texture. I also hate vegetables that are cooked to the point they've got no bite. I noticed that Asians like pasta cooked till it's soft. I don't think I've ever had an Asian pasta dish cooked al dente. Every time my relatives would visit, my mom would have me cook my linguine with clam sauce "fully cooked, not like what you usually do." Wed Mar 12 08:18:04 -0700 2008 3484911 10763 Miss Needle 2 3485010 Now that you mention it, the Asian dishes that I've had do have 'soft' pasta. So maybe I'm not alone after all! I agree that veggies need to have some bite to them. Not sure why I don't like pasta the same way. Wed Mar 12 08:28:50 -0700 2008 3484961 99358 Reston 3 3485767 It took me quite some time to get used to al dente pasta since I grew up with over-cooked, mushy spaghetti per my Asian family. And now, with my grown up taste buds, I can enjoy both. But though I like to think myself rather adept in the kitchen, I still have no concept of when pasta is al dente when I'm making it. Wed Mar 12 11:29:42 -0700 2008 3485010 68363 JungMann 4 3487354 In this case, I think overcooked is preferable to undercooked. I know that some chefs are so terrorized by the al dente requirement that they end up serving crunchy pasta and risotto. If it's still dry in the middle, that's not al dente, that's raw. Wed Mar 12 19:42:45 -0700 2008 3485767 149250 DeppityDawg 2 3487518 I think that one other issue is that many of the dishes are made w/fresh noodles which don't really cook up al dente. Wed Mar 12 20:50:18 -0700 2008 3484961 77080 justagthing 2 3488789 I always think of al dente for semolina type pastas and Asian noodle dishes are more egg noodles at least flour based? Maybe that's why Asians seem to prefer overcooked pasta? Or, maybe "overcooked" is subjective since they seem to think al dente is undercooked... Thu Mar 13 09:25:00 -0700 2008 3484961 39874 chowser 3 3489859 Yes, I would agree with you about the flour/egg/rice/mung bean based pastas. Even the ones that are dried are not semolina based. Thu Mar 13 13:30:58 -0700 2008 3488789 10763 Miss Needle 3 3494928 The optimal point for the different Asian noodles can vary; the desired texture is typically softer than Italian pasta, but one tends to seek out renditions that retain a certain resilence and chew. Sat Mar 15 04:25:04 -0700 2008 3488789 10076 limster 1 3485044 I tend to like my pasta just past the traditional al dente stage. I, too, like the slightly softer texture. I like it to still have some chew, but not a firm bite in the middle. The higher quality the pasta, though, the more al dente it can be and I'll still be happy with it. Wed Mar 12 08:37:58 -0700 2008 3484911 80141 ccbweb 2 3486504 I agree with ccbweb. Just a bit past al dente, but before mushy. Wed Mar 12 14:31:14 -0700 2008 3485044 80937 danhole 3 3494535 I'm with you. I don't like to taste the flour or the wheat product. But just a few mins past the al dente, I couldn't be more mad at myself when I've gone to far. Then Its "pasty' and I'm reminded of that glue that I used to eat back in elementary school! Fri Mar 14 19:54:00 -0700 2008 3486504 50431 chef chicklet 1 3486790 Question (for the OP): What is your favorite pasta brand and what does it taste like to you? Thanks Wed Mar 12 16:00:11 -0700 2008 3484911 26180 Chinon00 2 3488029 The brand I buy most often is Barilla. It has a nice flavor, but I do find that I boil it much longer than the box recommends. I've also tried the wheat pasta which I like too. I grew up in the Boston area eating Prince spaghetti (anyone remember 'Wednesday is Prince Spaghetti day'? Thu Mar 13 05:23:57 -0700 2008 3486790 99358 Reston 3 3489419 "Nice" isn't too precise. Not to be difficult but what specific flavor(s) do you taste in your pasta if any? What about it tastes good to you independent of any sauce? Thanks! Thu Mar 13 11:42:12 -0700 2008 3488029 26180 Chinon00 4 3490555 It's difficult to describe, but I guess the flavor is similar to that of French bread with a nutty aftertaste. I think the flavor itself is good, but the texture seems to be what I dislike. If it's not tender (boiled to death) then it feels like I'm chewying on gum. Maybe I'm just inept at getting it to a proper al dente. Are there other pasta brands that you would recommend? I'm always up for trying a new one. Thu Mar 13 17:01:26 -0700 2008 3489419 99358 Reston 5 3490648 I WOULD suggest that you go to a restaurant known for their pasta dishes to get a good idea of what "al dente" is. However, as you've stated above you've found pasta in restaurants "undercooked". I really wish that I had this problem because I find that pasta is one of the most ruined dishes in restaurants, precisely for being OVERCOOKED. This whole "chewing gum" texture that you mentioned I'm not familar with but it doesn't sound desirable. As the name suggests al dente means that the pasta is firm "to the bite". Not hard or undercooked but retaining significant body. If you don't like it cooked this way, that's cool. What's cooler is the fact that you've given the idea this much thought, time and effort. Thanks Thu Mar 13 17:27:10 -0700 2008 3490555 26180 Chinon00 6 3491661 I think 'significant body' sounds like what I should be looking for. I've been assuming that al dente meant 'dense and chewy'. I will try to make some pasta again using the exact directions for al dente and see if I can get that 'significant body' without the 'dense and chewy'. Fri Mar 14 05:25:42 -0700 2008 3490648 99358 Reston 1 3486844 Pasta cooked barely enough: al dente Pasta cooked slower: al lente Pasta cooked too long: al lamente Wed Mar 12 16:15:12 -0700 2008 3484911 11791 DonShirer 2 3487301 The first joke I remember making as a child was when my mom let me test the pasta to see if it was done, and I said "Uh-uh. It's al cemente!" Wed Mar 12 19:14:43 -0700 2008 3486844 21830 pamiam 3 3488989 I'm absolutely a fan of properly cooked, al dente pasta. I can't abide fully cooked pasta. Of course with regards to vegetables, Italians would generally prefer them fully cooked and fork tender. The concept of al dente doesn't translate from pasta to vegetables in the Italian diet. R. Jason Coulston Thu Mar 13 10:06:50 -0700 2008 3487301 166350 Jason_Coulston 1 3489842 I too don't eat pasta al dente and grew up in an asian home that serves all noodles/pasta fully cooked. I just order it a bit more well done when I'm out. Loooove pasta. Thu Mar 13 13:27:04 -0700 2008 3484911 165632 QueenPeach 2 3490198 I eat my instant ramen very al dente. I start eating it while it's still in a block. But the noodles are already deep-fried, so it's not like chewing on raw pasta. Thu Mar 13 14:43:15 -0700 2008 3489842 149250 DeppityDawg 1 3489932 Well, restaurants rarely cook pasta al dente (that's one reason *I* rarely order it at restaurants!), so you normally shouldn't have a problem. Just ask - "I would like my pasta very tender, rather than al dente" and I am sure they would be happy to oblige. I like my pasta al dente. I like many of my hard vegetables on the tender side. Thu Mar 13 13:47:01 -0700 2008 3484911 13819 Karl S 1 3490164 I eat Barilla pasta and usually find I cook mine about two minutes less then what the package claims. Also, i don't order pasta in restaurants because I find that it is always served to me too cooked. Thu Mar 13 14:35:36 -0700 2008 3484911 98562 rindinella_k 2 3490214 "Also, i don't order pasta in restaurants because I find that it is always served to me too cooked." You should switch restaurants! ;-) Most "Italian" restaurants near us cook the hell out of their pasta. Who knows why? I wish we had greater Italian influence in our area, but we don't have very many serious restaurants to choose from that would serve a proper plate of pasta. I think San Francisco and New York get the lion's share of good Italian restaurants. R. Jason Coulston Thu Mar 13 15:05:39 -0700 2008 3490164 166350 Jason_Coulston 3 3495286 Jason I know many resturants "pre-cook" pasta in large quantities and then portion it off and reheat it as needed. They do it in many neighborhood restaurnt/pizzarias, where the kitchen staff is small (sometimes just one or two) and time saving shortcuts are necessary evils. Unfortunately, the food always suffers and in the case of pasta, it just kills the texture. Sometimes, the way around that is to order a less common type/shape of pasta, EG: Fettucine, or cavatelli in the hope that they will have to make it to order. I do the same thing when I order fried rice. Sat Mar 15 08:49:40 -0700 2008 3490214 20921 Tay 4 3495427 And the way to get freshly scrambled eggs (American style, sigh) is to order them moist.... Sat Mar 15 09:52:06 -0700 2008 3495286 13819 Karl S 4 3495455 What is "the same thing" when ordering fried rice? It's better not to use freshly cooked rice for that, but even if I wanted the chef to do that, I don't see how I could manipulate the order to make it happen. Sat Mar 15 10:06:47 -0700 2008 3495286 149250 DeppityDawg 5 3502376 I order fried rice without onions or something similar...then they'll make the order fresh though they won't use fresh rice to do it. Mon Mar 17 16:57:51 -0700 2008 3495455 80141 ccbweb 1 3490544 I think that the greatest obstacle to a discussion like this is that "al dente" and "overcooked" are subjective terms. It's too bad we don't have some measure, like tensile strength, to discuss, but then we would have brand and flour-type differences to deal with. What if we put a strand on an accurate scale and measured the weight at which it breaks when "cut" with a pastry scraper. Or something else... Thu Mar 13 16:58:30 -0700 2008 3484911 137183 Gualtier Malde 2 3490683 What they should do is make pasta that's hot pink when it's dry, and then turns pasta-colored as it absorbs the hot water. Some people like to leave a little core of hot pink: undercooked. The precise moment all the color disappears from the center: al dente. One second after that: overcooked. And preferably, they should find a disappearing hot pink dye that does not give us cancer. Thu Mar 13 17:36:55 -0700 2008 3490544 149250 DeppityDawg 2 3490689 I remember something about throwing a piece of spaghetti on the wall, if it stuck it was done, if not, give it more time....wow, where did I pull that out of? Thu Mar 13 17:40:01 -0700 2008 3490544 77080 justagthing 3 3491057 "I remember something about throwing a piece of spaghetti on the wall, if it stuck it was done" That brings me back. That sounds like grandma logic to me. At least, that was my own grandmother's logic. I have no idea if that notion is based in anything close to fact, but I do remember her teaching me that trick as a youngster. R. Jason Coulston Thu Mar 13 19:48:02 -0700 2008 3490689 166350 Jason_Coulston 3 3491665 I knew people that used that method, but they would toss it on the side of the refrigerator rather than the wall. Fri Mar 14 05:27:24 -0700 2008 3490689 99358 Reston 3 3491699 I learned that ages ago too, but I think actually by that point it's overcooked, at least for my taste. I like my pasta to have a bite to it, and I have found that I get a nicier chewiness with artisanal dried pastas. One interesting note - I've seen a lot of complaints over the years about the pasta being too al dente at Batali's restaurants, though I've not noticed it myself at Lupa and Otto (not been to the others). Fri Mar 14 05:41:49 -0700 2008 3490689 10985 MMRuth 4 3493240 It's interesing that you mention Batali's restaurants. When I first saw the thread title, I thought of an experience at Lupa when some friends and I ordered penne and it was slightly undercooked (very al dente but still pretty tasty). That's probably the only pasta I've ever in a restaurant that was though - often it's cooked to death. I usually cook De Cecco for about 2 minutes less than the box says and then start testing it. It can be a pretty fine line between crunchy / pleasantly al dente / limp soggy noodles Fri Mar 14 12:23:15 -0700 2008 3491699 101907 ms. clicquot 5 3493252 Yes - I do find the times on boxes too long - I wonder if they put different times on boxes not for export? Fri Mar 14 12:24:50 -0700 2008 3493240 10985 MMRuth 1 3492622 I feel your pain!!! I am exactly the same way....... My aversion actually extends to "thick" pasta. I'll eat lingune (if necessary) but as far as the spaghetti options, I really don't like anything bigger than cappelini. I just kind of smile and nod when people start talking about how great it is al dente. Fri Mar 14 10:04:55 -0700 2008 3484911 165966 deborah24 1 3492734 It’s all a matter of personal taste. A very good friend of mine that I grew up and went to school with loved the spaghetti and meatballs that were served once a week at the grammar school we attended. The spaghetti was cooked to death and so starchy that it stuck together in a lump in the bowl. The sauce was sort of an industrial tomato without any additional flavorings or spices and the cheese was a government supplied Velveeta type, shredded so coarsely that it didn’t melt on top. He loved it and has been trying, unsuccessfully I might add, to duplicate it since 1959. The irony of this is that he’s a third generation Italian on both sides. He lived with his Grandmother who immigrated to America from Sicily as a teenager. I can attest to the fact that she was an outstanding cook and cooked all of her pasta al dente. Go figure! Fri Mar 14 10:29:35 -0700 2008 3484911 131082 TomDel 2 3495188 TomDel, your post made me smile because my elementary school served the same spaghetti and meatballs although circa 1985!! Has your friend tried the canned Chefboyardee (I might have spelled that wrong)? It comes close to the childhood version. Sat Mar 15 07:53:57 -0700 2008 3492734 76186 moymoy 3 3497018 I’m sure he has. Didn’t they also make spahgettio’s or something with a similar name? He came pretty close years ago when he was a teenager by overcooking regular spaghetti and then letting it sit in the colander until it dried out and formed a solid clump at the bottom and all stuck together. To this he added heated up Hunts tomato sauce topped with grated yellow American cheese. His grandmother just sighed and mumbled something to me in Italian, which of course I didn’t understand a word of (I thought “iceabox” was Italian for refrigerator until I was twenty something). While he was concocting this mess, I was eating her homemade gnocchi’s in Sunday gravy and have never had any better since then. Sat Mar 15 20:44:47 -0700 2008 3495188 131082 TomDel 1 3492956 One of the reasons why al dente is lauded is that it preserves the rough texture of the semolina flour - which helps the sauce cling to the pasta and permits it to permeate into it a bit. Overcooking the pasta causes these protein structures to become bloated and collapse, making a smoother texture, so that the sauce slides off the pasta, and sealing shut the surface area, preventing the fuller absorption of flavor into the pasta. But hey, if you don't like al dente, then you don't like al dente, so it doesn't really matter... Fri Mar 14 11:15:57 -0700 2008 3484911 174705 kafka75 1 3494367 Sorry, original poster, but I think your affinity for over-cooked pasta just comes from being raised in America where that's (unfortunately) how its served. Me, I always ask for it al dente and rarely does the restaurant get it right. Usually overcooked. (the al dente "rule" goes for pasta asciutta; dried, not fresca, fresh) I cant say I understand why you would prefer mushy pasta; pasta has to have "bite" for texture and to make a sophisticated dish; I can't imagine Pasta Carbonara "mushy"; blech. Fri Mar 14 18:45:57 -0700 2008 3484911 55284 bengoshi 1 3494739 I prefer my pasta soft, too, but I can tolerate al dente pasta in restaurants. What I can't stand is al dente risotto, it tastes raw to me, must be because I'm used to asian style rice. So I never order risotto in Italian restaurants. Fri Mar 14 22:09:03 -0700 2008 3484911 69044 hsk 1 3494894 Try cooking it a little bit softer than 'al dente', cool with cool water, drain well, cover and leave it alone for an hour or two. Then you can reheat quickly in another pot of water, drain and serve. The result? A tenderer, but no mushy, texture. As though the noodle had time to become thoroughly hydrated. I can tell the difference, and I like it. Sat Mar 15 02:24:36 -0700 2008 3484911 14479 wayne keyser 2 3500655 I read through this thread and have come to the conclusion that we have no clear definition of al dente. When I lived in Italy, it was cooked to the point that there was no raw taste of flour. Rather like rice that is cooked, you can cut it and note the change in translucency as it cooks toward the center. But I suppose just how cooked you like it remains a subjective thing. Like when are potatoes overcooked. To me, however, the point of it has to do with flavor and sauce. An al dente pasta still tastes of the wheat, like a good bread. And in Italy, sauce is used as a foil to the taste of the pasta. In this country, sauce and cheese tend to be the point of the dish and pasta is used as a vehicle to carry the sauce, which is often overthick and overcooked. It's rather like preferences in pizza--thick crust or thin and tons of topping or a simple classic one. Mon Mar 17 09:36:27 -0700 2008 3494894 53369 Father Kitchen 3 3500716 Goodness Father, you sound just like an Italian. LOL I think Americans tend to over-sauce just about everything, so it doesn't surprise me that the specific taste of the pasta is indiscernible. But taste is, indeed, subjective. Mon Mar 17 09:51:58 -0700 2008 3500655 75332 Gio 1 3500814 I don't think that any of us need to feel "held hostage by”, or to be "hostile to” rules like these. I try to give my best effort to appreciate food rules but my personal taste don't irrevocably line up with them. Mon Mar 17 10:13:48 -0700 2008 3484911 26180 Chinon00 2 3501517 I didn't think this was about rules. The simple question that began it was about taste preferences. It's nice to know you are not alone. For example, I live in the Chesapeake region and have lived on Puget Sound and San Francisco Bay. And I still haven't learned to like crab cakes. Thank God there is no rule that says I must. Mon Mar 17 13:03:37 -0700 2008 3500814 53369 Father Kitchen 3 3502110 Taste preference versus what? There are certain "rules" that we’ve all heard of: 1) Never order steak well done 2) Never grate cheese on seafood 3) Never put ketchup on a hot dog Each has merit however they don't have to necessarily be complied with. Preparing pasta al dente is another one of these rules. Mon Mar 17 15:36:23 -0700 2008 3501517 26180 Chinon00 1 3501879 I tend to be of the thinking that al dente is better texture overall, but so agree that well done pasta is a requirement in how some dishes are prepared. I grew up eating pasta that was overly done mushy at home all the time and grew tired of eating it all the time(same thing with veggies--unfortunately home and school lunches were the same textures), which is why al dente whenever I could get it out of the house was always a revelation. I do have to say that sauces and extras probably do affect how a pasta dish will taste and whether al dente or mushy soft is the best way to go. my mom liked to prepare food well done all the time, and with plenty of oil. I liked it--sometimes, but not always. I do like beans/lentils and legumes well cooked though, thoughly so that he bean is soft and tender not hard (which is why I have a hate only relationship with the kidney beans found in salads--those kidney bean shells are tough to chew and sometimes scratch the roof of my mouth!!) Mon Mar 17 14:33:45 -0700 2008 3484911 147459 b0ardkn0t 2 3502253 To a Midwestern boy, "al dente" is an Italian phrase meaning "noodles ain't done yet." I have outgrown my upbringing, though...except for those back-home skillet dishes, the ones that start with hamburger and tomatoes and finish up with macaroni (or sometimes egg noodles). Still get a hankering for those, and the macaroni HAS to be soft clear through. Mon Mar 17 16:18:22 -0700 2008 3501879 11478 Will Owen 1 3675302 You're not the only one! I HATE it al dente and don't order it at restaurants for that reason. I don't like it mushy, but very tender. Sat May 10 16:13:05 -0700 2008 3484911 191219 cheerio7803 1 3675374 A bit over a year ago, Michael Savage was on a rant on his radio show about how all the restos in SF cooked pasta al dente and how he didn't like it. Despite the fact that he's often way off the reservation on any number of topics, that was the first time I actually wanted to pick up the phone and call him to tell him I objected to his opinion ;-) So you have one famous radio host in common. I don't get the appeal of mushy pasta, but to each their own. Sat May 10 16:48:27 -0700 2008 3484911 24421 Panini Guy 1 4869984 I too am not fond of pasta al dente. It reminds me of something very rubbery and at the same time, doughy. I like a softer pasta like my Mom made. I cook my pasta a few minutes over the recommended time, although when I cooked bowties last night 4 minutes over the recommended time, they still were quite rubbery. I have noticed that Barilla Pastas are consistently al dente. I find the lowly store brands work best for me. Sat Jul 18 09:54:23 -0700 2009 3484911 1094699 EdaVeggie 1 4870147 The longer you cook pasta, the greater the volume, so for restaurant kitchens that are trying to stretch a buck, they'll get a few less servings per day if they cook it to al dente. Not a huge deal but perhaps a factor for some. However, I once heard Dr. Andrew Weil recommending that if you are eating white-flour pasta (he'd rather you eat whole/multigrain), you should cook it al dente because cooking till softer creates more havoc with blood sugar levels than does al dente. Sat Jul 18 11:35:28 -0700 2009 3484911 159317 greygarious 1 4883671 To each their own, but I don't recommend you eat pasta at my house. I belive the Italians hiss the term "scotto" (cooked) as an epithet for overcooked pasta. I have to agree with them. While I still have my teeth, I want to use 'em on my pasta. One of my first restaurant jobs was at the family friendly Spaghetti Factory, they cooked their pasta too long IMHO, I remember this guy pulling me aside and picking up strands of spaghetti to show me that the pasta was undercooked and that it should "fall apart with no resistance". I just nodded my head and said "oh, I see" while I was crying on the inside. I used to work on my uncle's farm in Iowa in the summers, and I was thoroughly grossed out by the pasta there. Iowa is where you should go for nice soft pasta. P.S. Package directions = overcooked (I think they condecendingly increase the cook time for American packaging) P.P.S.S. Iowa is filled with some of the best people around, I forgive them for f***ing up pasta there. Thu Jul 23 07:46:22 -0700 2009 3484911 65045 Ericshinkle 1 5083875 I don't like al dente either. I dated a northern Italian guy and he thought the American version of al dente was undercooked. There were some other things he didn't like that Americans claimed to be "Italian". I spent a little time in Italy and I don't remember eating tough pasta. A thing he and I agreed upon was how salad in the States comes with the dressing on the side. In Italy, traditionally, the salad is tossed up in an oil and vinegar mixture and served with the lettuce slightly wilted. Hence "Italian" salad dressing. Tue Oct 06 16:04:01 -0700 2009 3484911 236254 paizley