Espresso Machine - Starbucks' Via Venezia?

[sobriquet]

Does anyone own the Via Venezia machine made for Starbucks by Saeco? Anyone have any thoughts?

http://www.starbucksstore.com/product...

At $280, it seems fairly reasonable, but I don't want to spend that much on a machine that still doesn't make good espresso. I already own a good conical burr grinder, so the fact that it uses pods as well as ground coffee is a plus for me.

Can someone give advice to a coffee lover who appreciates good espresso, but not how to pick a machine? I want that beautiful, rich crema without spending $800. I don't think a stovetop moka pot is going to give me what I'm looking for.

Thanks, Chowhounds!

[chipman]

What kind of grinder do you have? There are three parts of the equation that leads to good espresso. Fresh beans, a capable grinder, and finally the espresso machine itself.
Here is a link that will probably give you all the info you can use. And make this purchase much less confusing.

As for this machine, sadly it comes with a pressurized portofilter which gives you phony crema that doesn't taste very good. I would advise spending a little more, possibly going with a refurbished or a buyers remorse machine from WLL.

http://coffeegeek.com/guides/howtobuy...

[cgfan]

I'm guessing it's just an update of Starbuck's very successful Barista line, also made by Saeco. Outside of some updated aethetics it doesn't appear to be much different than the older models, so you might want to consider buying a used model on eBay. There are many out there - it was a huge success and the one that I recommend to most budding espresso-heads.

I suspect that if $280 sounds steep, any machine from WLL (WholeLatteLove.com), as chipman suggests, would be out of reach. (My home machine is also from WLL, the excellent Expobar Brewtus...)

The class of machine that you're considering, for various reasons, would be hard-pressed to create a "true" espresso. But I recommend it to most as it's easy to use, very consistent, and most importantly consistently produces a cup which to most people "appears" to be a true espresso. If one cannot tell the difference, than no need to pay for the difference... I personally know many who are very fond of their Barista and never question the shots they produce, and has gotten much use out of them.

Keep in mind that tamping with a pressureized portafilter doesn't really do much. In fact the whole pressureized portafilter was developed so that one can get consistent results throughout a wide range of grind and tamp. This is because the crema, as chipman alludes, is not real. Rather it is created by the rapid drop in pressure as the water leaves the portafilter, thereby creating a foam a la Bernoulli. But crema is not a foam but an emulsion of tiny drops of coffee oils suspended in a matrix of water. (Please note though that there is a small amount of debate over this latter interpretation.)

And before the foam is created the water is pooled in the portafilter, essentially brewing with the coffee grounds. It has to, as it is being prevented from leaving the portafilter at the rate it wishes due to the diaphragm creating the backpressure. And this is why the grind is not too important, and similarly unimportant is the tamp. The clearest evidence of this is the messy slurry of coffee grounds and water created once the shot is pulled. In a conventional machine the spent puck of coffee forms a dry "cookie" of such density that it holds together as a single mass even after being violently forced out of the portafilter by a heavy hit on the knockbox... (I almost see the tamper provided with these machines merely a gadget so one can play "pretend" barista...)

In a conventional espresso machine the backpressure is solely created by the tightly packed puck of coffee, which due to the extreme pressures forces the oils into solution and creates the emulsion.

If you are to get this machine don't bother much over a grinder. However before Saeco private labelled the Barista for Starbucks it used to have an unpressurized portafilter. So if you are interested in either up front going to such a setup, or doing so only after getting accustomed to a pressurized setup, you can always hack your pressureized portafilter into a non-pressureized one, or purchase one off of eBay. Once you do that the grinder does become important, as well as careful control over your tamping technique.

If one is used to the pressurized portafilter and switches to a non-pressurized setup, the initial reaction may be one of extreme disappointment, as suddenly your skills as a barista immediately will come into play and a beginner can easily produce a much worse tasting shot than is possible with the stock setup. However the payoff is that by careful tweaking of your technique you should be able to pull shots much better than the pressurized setup can. It's like removing the training wheels off of a bike - a bit of danger is involved, but the benefits with an improved technique are real...

However please note that the pumps on machines of this class are very weak, and will likely not be able to produce the pressures needed for pulling the so-called "god shots". However for a little bit of money and a bit of hacking, you at least can elevate the machine out of it's "pressurized portafilter hell", and a bit closer to producing "real espresso".

Hope this helps...

http://www.wholelattelove.com

[sobriquet]

Thank you both for your excellent responses - I appreciate it. I read through Coffee Geek a bit. Do you have any opinions on the FrancisFrancis X3? It's more than I was going to spend, but if that Saeco isn't going to give me the real thing, I might as well not bother.

I know you're paying a bit of a premium for the design, but the compact nature of the machine really appeals to me. It's also going to be in a highly visible location in my apartment, so I suppose aesthetics is a minor consideration.

[Edit] My grinder is a Solis Maestro. It's been serving me well for drip coffee and french press preparations. I'm happy with the consistency of the grind.

[cgfan]

sobriquet: I guess it all depends on what you truly are after. I think all informed espresso heads, you've already heard from two of us, will probably call the results from the pressurized portafilter as producing a false crema. Oftentimes when you hear that it is with a condescending tone.

I personally see it a bit differently, as I alluded to above: in my personal experience the appearance of the false crema is enough for most who want to go beyond normal brewed coffee towards something akin to the espresso experience. Not to say that that will be enough for you, but do consider it as a possibility... And if so, the pressurized setup will save you both dollars as well as spare you the "fiddliness" of good technique via the more traditional approach.

That being said, go with whatever your pocketbook and your aethetic needs dictates. To make a good espresso is truly an art that makes demands of the barista, and to have a machine which looks the part can definitely be considered part of the whole ethos.

And if you really want to go for a genuine espresso sans any false crema, than by all means look for a setup that will give you a traditional (non-pressurized) portafilter. (And as I hinted to earlier, a pressurized portafilter can easily be hacked into a non-pressurized one, though in general I'd recommend obtaining a true non-pressurized pf from the start.) Also once you go the non-pressurized route you will begin to lean a lot on the ability of your grinder to make very small adjustments to the grind, so a good grinder is crucial to be able to control the backpressure against the pump for the extraction. (Recall that in a pressurized portafilter setup the diaphragm supplies this backpressure, but with a traditional portafilter the coffee puck, via your technique of grinding, distributing, dosing, and tamping, will provide the sole means for creating this backpressure against the pump.) So a grinder that works well for drip or french press does not necessarily mean it will do well for a traditional espresso.

When espresso-heads are talking about the importance of the grinder, yes, consistency of grind is one of them, but often not-discussed but what I feel to be just as important, is the fineness of the grind control. The very best of the grinders uses a very fine pitch thread on a rather large circumference adjustment dial. When tweaking a shot for the optimal grind, one is talking about shaving off or adding seconds to a shot that's occurring under very high pressure. To do so often requires just a couple of degrees of rotation on an already fine thread adjustment. Compare this to the coarse controls of a typical consumer level (even the burr type) grinders, and one sees that it is all but impossible to obtain this kind of control w/o investing the money.

Regarding the 3 M's of espresso - Miscela, Mano, and Macchina:

Keep in mind that once you go to a traditional portafilter what will limit the quality of your espresso, beyond one's technique [mano] and the beans used [miscela], is the ability of the machine [macchina] to produce water at a consistent temperature at a consistent and high enough pressure from shot to shot. Though simple sounding the pursuit/perfection of these last set of qualities takes an inordinate amount of good engineering and money. So make informed decisions regarding where any extra dollars that you'd like to spend are doing for you with regards to temperature, pressure, and their consistency from shot to shot.

As you will find perusing sites such as WLL, the pursuit of these remaining parameters increasingly requires an easy doubling, tripling, quadrupling or beyond in price for what one used to think of as an "expensive" machine. I've certainly gone through similar readjustments, from the stove-top moka pots to a couple of steam-driven machines to a couple of pump machines with a prolonged detour through manual piston machines and now on to my first semi-commercial semi-automatic machine! So with regards to your next purchase you may want to consider it as one stop along the way of what may turn into several future changes of equipment.

[chuckl]

very good post, cgfan, i agree with what you say. very few people are willing to spend the time and money to produce a real espresso. Hence, the popularity of Starbucks and the subsequent dumbing down of espresso expectations. Sobriquet, if you are one of the few willing to go down that road, welcome, you'll find plenty of company and good advice from posters like those above. I know Francis looks good, esp, the red one, but I've seen mixed reviews about performance. I know at least one of their models uses pods, which you want to avoid if your goal is true espresso, imho. Many people, me included, have invested in the Rancilio Silvia (I think they cost about the same), and you'll find a cult devoted to using this machine. It fits pretty well in my kitchen and is really heavy and well built. Just the heft of the portafilter tells you you're dealing with a serious machine. Lining up the optimum roast (the beans HAVE to be fresh) and working out the kinks in your skill can be a bit frustrating at first, and you'll probably end up dumping a lot of coffee into the sink. But once you have it tuned in, you'll never again settle for mediocre espresso.

[sobriquet]

Thank you both for your responses. I'm going to have to give this further thought before taking the plunge. I keep hearing good things about that Rancilio Silvia. It sounds like I might want to go that route and then use my grinder as an upgrade path. Does the Rancilio use a non-pressurized pf?

cgfan, until you took the time to post that, I didn't understand how these machines were generating pressure and the difference between the pressurized and non-pressurized pf. Thanks for helping me avoid a potentially costly mistake.

[zin1953]

In addition to Whole Latte Love (which DOES win what the late Herb Caen would have referred to as the "C-u-u-u-u-u-u-u-t-e Firm Name" award) -- http://www.wholelattelove.com/ -- I'd take a serious look at two other internet retailers I hold in even higher regard: Chris' Coffee Service -- http://www.chriscoffee.com/ -- and 1st-Line -- http://www.1st-line.com/

Please note, it is not that I dislike WLL. Indeed, I discovered them first, and used to be a happy customer of theirs. But the people at Chris' and 1st-Line are more knowledgeable in both home- and commercial machines, and have -- in the long term -- proven of much more help to me over the years.

Yes, the Rancillo Silvia is "non-pressurized." It's a wonderful machine. That said, I've never owned one, only tasted the results. For about 15 years, I owned a Coffee Gaggia, before "upgrade-itis" struck and I acquired a "prosumer" machine (an Ala di Vittoria La Valentina).

I was VERY happy with my Coffee Gaggia, but would recommend you actually look at the Gaggia Classic instead. It has all the features of the Coffee Gaggia I had, but -- in addition -- has the 3-way solenoid valve that is also present in the Rancillo Silvia. The Silivia is a bit more finicky; my Gaggia was very forgiving. Both are EXCELLENT choices, and you wouldn't go wrong with either one.

There are multiple sources for each machine, but you may want to use WLL's "Compare-o-Matic" -- http://www.wholelattelove.com/compare.cfm -- to see the capabilities of each.

As for grinders, get a good burr grinder. Your espresso -- and espresso machine -- will only be as good as the grinder you use and coffee beans you put in it. Yes, you can spend thousands on the grinder, too, BUT . . .

You may want to check out the Baratza line of grinders -- http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/baratza/index.htm -- though I would personally opt for something that is, sadly, higher in cost and thus pushes you closer to $800 (total) you didn't really want to spend. Nonetheless, I'd take a look at the either the Rancillo Rocky -- http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/home/grinders/stainlessrocky or the Nuova Simonelli MCI -- http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/home/grinders/mcidlbblack

Also, you may want to look at and/or ask questions on either Home-Barista.com or CoffeeGeek.com

http://www.home-barista.com/
http://www.coffeegeek.com/

Good luck!

Cheers,
Jason

[FriendOfTheDevil]

CGfan,

Thanks for all the great info. this mayu be a stupid question. I am interested in replacing my Pressurized Portafilter with a non pressure.
I have a Delonghi Machine.
Will only a Delonghi portafilter fit? Or will anyone fit as long as it is the right mm?

Thanks,

FOTD

[Mawrter]

I have an early '90s version of that Saeco/Starbucks machine. I can't say enough great stuff about it. If you want something substantially better than a department store (think Krups) espresso machine, but aren't ready to part with the wad of money required for super-serious equipment, this is your machine. It is stone-cold reliable; it makes very nice home espresso and cappuccino; it's easy to clean; it's made in Italy; the service and support have been top-notch (light-years better than WLL, where I practically had to sue them to get them to fix the broken Maestro grinder they sold me -- not cool, WLL!). Honestly, it would be really hard for me to justify throwing more money at a machine for incrementally better performance.

Also? I'm not a professional barista. Someday if I fall into enough money and free time to learn to make ür-serious espresso on the machine commensurate with that rarified level of beverage... I might just do that. In the meantime, in the life and station that I have, I am damned happy with my little middle-brow Starbucks Barista. FTR, I have had espresso from very serious commercial machines that really isn’t as good as what I make at home. Was it the beans? The grind? The water? The tamping? The new kid on duty? I'll never know, but a thousand tiny things can foul the end result. And mine - with good water, great beans, good and fresh grind - is good. And FWIW, I think I've hit the sweet spot (price/performance) with my combination of grinder and machine.

There have been some inaccuracies in this thread. One I'd like to clarify is the belief that grind and tamping don't matter with this machine. Maybe mine is a lot more different from current models than I realize, but ... suffice to say, grind and tamping matter. They matter with a moka pot, for the love of dogs. So yeah, they matter on a Barista. They may quite possibly matter *more* on a very high-level artisanal machine - I honestly can't speak to that. But they do make a difference on a Barista.

Another incorrect statement in this thread is that all Starbucks model Saeco espresso machines come with the combustion engine fluffy faux crema portafilter. That is untrue. My original portafilter was the regular kind, no whiz-bang enhanced "crema". After more than a decade of hard use, the portafilter developed a crack. Starbucks *gave* me another portafilter, gratis, even though I'm not a regular, I don't buy their beans and I'm sure after this many miles they don't owe me a thing. The new portafilter is the effervescing bouffant version. I'm not thrilled. But you know what? It was free, and since I don't think I can buy the replacement part separately, it meant I could continue using my much-loved protean machine... theoretically costing them the margin of another machine purchase. They don't make artisanal coffee, for sure, but I certainly can’t fault their business practice.

[sobriquet]

Thanks for your kind response, Mawrter - and the laugh. I haven't acted on this yet, but I'll post soon when I do. I avoided a near impulse buy of a Bialetti Brikka (the new enhanced moka pot), but passed after finding disappointing reviews.

I've decided against the Francis Francis. It's gorgeous, but If I'm going to spend that much, I might as well spend a little more for the Silvia. I am trying to decide whether I want to take the plunge into the deep end right away on my first espresso machine or whether I should test the waters first with the more reasonable Starbucks model.

Can you elaborate on the new portafilter they sent you? Besides sporting a stylish new hairdo, how's the coffee? Do you notice a difference between the old portafilter and the new? Have you tried the portafilter mod to take out the "crema enhancer?"

[Mawrter]

Good call on the Francis Francis and the Bialetti IMO, Sobriquet. Can I just say how long I obsessed about what to do when I had to replace my grinder? I think it's great you're researching it beforehand so you don't wind up doing a READY-FIRE-AIM. I think for the money (& your personality/desire, as I read'em) you'd want something less 'instamatic' than the FF. Why get involved with the pods when you already have a nice grinder, kwim?

My dh's company has a similar one for employee and customer use and it's great because (compared to using a grinder and loose beans,) it's WAY simpler, neater and mostly idiot-proof - really optimal for a work situation.

My friend's Bialetti is a silly, broken toy. I don't know who really know who makes the "moo" device but I suspect it's not the company we know as Bialetti. I saw one of their plain ol' moka pots in a store recently and it was made in China.

My new portafilter does that churning-the-water-to-create-overly-fluffy-ersatz-crema thing. I haven't done the modification to make it stop, though... if anyone has a link, I might try it if I feel brave one day. The epsresso is still good, but I'm not enamoured of the fake fluff. The difference is all about the enhanced faux crema... and they don't look much different. I had no idea such effects even existed, so when I took it home and used it the first time, I was completely confused. It was like someone had put an out boardmotor in my little machine.

[cgfan]

Mawrter, I suspect we largely agree on the broad areas, and only depart on the more nuanced parts. I, too, recommend the Saeco/Starbuck's machine for most people who want to get into espresso-styled drinks. The reason is that it can easily produce a cup, (with the pressurized portafilter, that is), that for most people gives the sensation of an espresso-like experience. It's brilliant, really. While many espresso enthusiasts will argue that it's really not a true espresso, myself included, who's to argue if it produces a cup that the consumer enjoys? Not myself, and I suspect that you're of the same opinion.

Now I was careful in my post to say that with the pressurized portafilter the grinder is not very critical. Of course one can grind too coarsely such that there isn't a sufficient extraction, but that can be avoided with almost any garden variety grinder. I just wanted to make sure the OP understood that a high-end grinder is not needed if used with a pressurized portafilter. Buying a grinder commensurate with the "seriousness" of the espresso machine is a good way of saving some money.

That being said I also did mention that if one hacked their pressurized portafilter to a non-pressurized configuration or bought a non-pressurized one, than they will have to lean more on their grinder, tamper, distribution technique, etc. This would be true of any machine that uses a non-pressurized portafilter, including the Saeco/Starbuck's machine. So if the OP decides to go this route, that is to either modify the pressurized portafilter or buy it w/the non-pressurized pf, than that's when I start to recommend a more capable grinder, which I alluded to above.

The reason I referred to the tamper as a toy, of sorts, was in reference to a pressurized portafilter configuration. If one is using a pressurized portafilter, one may as well go the easy route and not obsess over grind and tamp, as the coffee is essentially brewing and dialing in the grind to the precision of a high-end grinder simply is not necessary. This is not to say that the grind is unimportant.

What I failed to mention in my earlier posts is that one can, even without modding the portafilter, use it in a regime similar to a non-pressurized pf by tamping hard enough. By doing so one ensures that the resistance to the pump is determined by the coffee puck. If you are experiencing w/your current pressurized pf differences due to tamp and grind, then you are more than likely operating the Barista in a regime where the puck is pacing the extraction, even if your pf is pressurized.

However this is not the best situation as once the draw passes the puck it is still not at atmospheric pressure due to the diaphragm. The pour will be forced to pool below the puck until it develops enough pressure to overcome the diaphragm, versus pouring out unimpeded as in a conventional pf. In this manner one is likely to add a false crema on top of whatever real crema was already created by the tighter puck.

Furthermore many emulsions lacking any stabilizers needs to be handled gently so as to not break apart. This is true of espresso's crema as well, and how the crema is handled after its creation can be very important. (I always use the single spout adaptor on my pf and position the cup such that the crema gently glides onto the side of the cup rather than crash straight into the cup's bottom...) Certainly having it face the crema-aide after passing through the puck is not the best situation...

Note that any tamp that is light enough not to pace the pour is essentially operating the portafilter in it's full pressurized mode; essentially acting as a backstop of sorts to one's technique. I believe it is this property of the Barista that ensures, even in the absence of a tamp, that one still gets something pleasant and "crema-like"..

Now the ability of the Saeco/Starbuck's machine to create "a drink" that is better than espresso's poured at most any cafe, regardless of their equipment, is true. I'd much rather drink the incredibly consistent drinks that one gets from a pressurized portafilter, yes, even with its false crema and insufficient extraction, than the poorly crafted, over-extracted, overly-hot, vile and bitter drink that most cafes serve as their espresso. With a poorly-trained barista the machine does not matter at all, regardless of how fancy or expensive it may be. (Most cafes would do so much better using machines like the Saeco/Starbuck's Barista if they're not going to bother in training their baristas... At least they'll stop serving vile "sink shots" disguised as espressos!)

However it's important to point out that a decent barista can beat a pressurized portafilter setup any day with a much more compelling cup. ...and as I alluded to in my post above, using a non-pressurized portafilter on a machine at this price point can result in the production of real crema, but it would be hard-pressed to match that of a good barista on a professional machine. However that's certainly not an argument for the OP to necessarily set his price point any higher. It just depends on matching the budget to the quality of, and to the authenticity of, the cup that the OP is after.

And thanks for the clarification regarding the non-pressurized version of the Starbuck's Barista. Although I don't recall seeing a non-pressurized pf on a Starbuck's-branded Saeco; having only seen Saeco-branded models with the conventional pf, we both share the same key point - that there does exist non-pressurized models of this very successful machine.

[vjenk]

I just got a Via Venezia and it did not come with a tamper at all. So I guess the newest Saeco for Starbucks line doesn't even pretend to need one. I am a novice, so this machine is my first aside from a stovetop. I wasn't ever happy with my drinks made with that. Any tips for a newbie?

[cgfan]

That is indeed a surprise, not including a tamper. You probably should ask Starbuck's whether or not it includes one. I'm surprised they'd do that b/c that's probably the least expensive part of the whole kit.

In any case I'd first use it strictly as intended, as that's the beauty of the pressurized portafilter. It will certainly produce a bit better cup than a stovetop moka, which cannot produce any crema whereas the pressurized portafilter produces something "crema-like" that to most people fills the same role. (Though as you will know from my earlier post that this is far from a real crema...)

These are very easy and forgiving machines to use. Just please use coffee that has been recently roasted, preferably from a provider that does their own roasting. Buy whole bean and grind per shot. If you are going to be pouring several shots, still make it a habit to grind per shot.

Also make sure you preheat your tazzinas/demitasse beyond what's needed to get the surface warm. You want it to be warm even where you cannot feel it, throughout the thickness of the cup. That means that you should let them preheat well-beyond the point where they are warm on the surfafe.

Be diligent about cleanliness. I brush my showerhead, gasket, and portafilter after every shot with a trickle of hot water from the machine. Pallo makes a particularly nice brush that's perfect for this job. I also brush down my grinder per shot. It's a good way of guaranteeing that you are not using any old, residual grounds.

Any delay in extracting your drink once the beans are ground is drink quality lost, particularly once it gets packed into (a presumeably hot) portafilter. Deterioration in the portafilter is very, very quick! So once ground, dose, distribute, tamp, lock and load and pull your shot in quick succession.

Also make sure you wipe your portafilter dry before your shot. You do not want the grounds on the outside to start "brewing" by being exposed to moisture early.

Try different blends. Ignore any coffee that's packed as "espresso roast" - there is no such thing. Only espresso blends, and that's far from a set formula.

Try at least one espresso blend that bravely uses robusta. It may be hard to find through local sources, so check the famous "3rd wave" roasters. Though most blends out there are all arabica, many of the serious blends use small percentages of a quality robusta, and it does wonders for the overall cup and crema.

[vjenk]

Interesting. I read this morning that robusta is more bitter and that 100% arabica would be a sweeter shot. Unfortunately, Oklahoma is not known for their coffee roasters. I can either buy Starbucks, Illy (haven't tried it yet) or get a local shop owner to sell me some of his blend which he says is custom roasted for his shop. Apparently Illy pressurizes their packed espresso so that it stays fresh despite being imported?
Another thing is that the top of the machine is supposed to warm the cups, but it doesn't really seem to do so well at this. I have been warming them with hot water to make up for that.
Thanks for the tips.

[cgfan]

Yes, robusta is much maligned. The truth of the matter is that robusta primarily got its bad name due to the use, (by the huge big a** can coffee companies - read Folger's, MJB, etc.), of bargain basement Vietnamese robusta. Very little of the robusta crop is worthy for use in espresso, if for no other reason in that it is the most demanding of all coffee drinks out there; the consciencious roasters out there that use robusta carefully selects their beans.

Even so, yes, robusta does not have the elegance of arabica. However it provides great crema and mouthfeel, and what I refer to as a slight "funkiness" that to me adds interest and character to the espresso drink. Thus robusta needs to be carefully used. If not roasted correctly or used in a controlled fraction of a blend, it can overpower and dominate a blend.

To me all arabica blends certainly can make very good espresso, but I find them oftentime a bit boring in taste due to their "too clean" a taste. A bit of robusta can be a very good thing.

I only mentioned the robusta, though, as something that you shoujld probably experience at least once. It may not be to everyone's liking, but I find in general that amongst enthusiasts, robusta is often a key component to an interesting blend.

Re. Illy, I don't know how they could get away with their deceptive packaging. Their expiration dates are laughable! Yes, they are widely distributed in Italy, #1 I believe, but honestly the development of the espresso market in the U.S., especially with the so-called 3rd wave shops, has demanded far higher quality than what goes for espresso in Italy. (But then again, to be fair, their average barista in the average cafe beats most of ours on any given day.) So for the ultimate models of best practices we are better off looking to the best of our own "3rd wave" shops rather than looking towards Italy...

http://coffeegeek.com/opinions/markpr...

[vjenk]

Thank you again. I was wondering what you meant by there not being any such thing as espresso roast. I thought that was just a term regarding how darkly the beans are roasted -- the darkest of roasts. I have read (maybe from you -- I don't recall at the moment without searching) that some of the best espresso is made from a medium roast. So, what would an espresso "blend" be? If I didn't ask, I'd remain ignorant of such things! :)

[cgfan]

I don't mean to deflect the question, but in reality the proper roast for an espresso is whatever roast degree achieves the goal and taste profile of the particular blend as determined by the roastmaster. And in reality most roasters would roast each component of their espresso blends separately, so that in reality even for a given blend there really is no single roast level!

I personally roast really light for my own espresso drinks. Doing so preserves the sweetness of the bean as well as its individual character, though depending on the bean I'll take it further into the roast. This becomes particularly important for single origin espresso, as you most certainly would wish to taste the full varietal character of the bean.

There's a reason why many people refer to *$'s as Char$'s.

On the other hand there are some famous blends out there that are known for being able to take on high roast levels, for instance Intelligentsia's Black Cat Espresso.

[zin1953]

Perhaps it was me, as I've often said there is no such thing as an espresso roast, per se, in the way that there is a "Full City roast" or an "Italian roast," for example.

Espresso is a method of producing coffee, and can (and is) made by using coffee beans that are lightly roasted, that are moderately roasted, or that are completely burnt (Char$ being an example). In northern Italy, beans used for espresso are typically roasted much lighter than they are in southern Italy, for example.

That said, here in the U.S., "Espresso Roast" has come to mean a considerably dark roast, and is used solely as a marketing term, rather than a standardized roasting designation.

Personally my favorite roasts are not all that dark either -- check out Espresso Vivace's "Dolce," Ecco Caffe's "Northern Italian Reserva," or Flying Goat's "Espresso Ticino" blends -- none of which are all that dark . . . ESPECIALLY when compared to *$.

Cheers,
Jason

[vjenk]

This coffee business is overwhelming sometimes. :) I made a single shot Americano this morning with about 4 oz. of hot water and it tasted very weak. It was my first Americano, so I don't know what it is "supposed" to taste like. But I don't think that this was it. My double-tall lattes last night tasted great though.

[zin1953]

>>> Apparently Illy pressurizes their packed espresso so that it stays fresh despite being imported? <<<

Hehehehehe . . . . WRONG!

[Mawrter]

I don't know why you would expect a tamper to be included? You might also want a stainless container with a handle to froth milk in, and a special thermometer with a clip to attach to that container. They are very nice, but they definitely don't come with.

[zin1953]

Because they ALWAYS contain a tamper. Not a very good one, mind you -- it's black plastic and worth every penny you don't pay for it, but still . . .

[cgfan]

Re. the thermometer, my standard advice to budding enthusiasts is to use it only to get an idea of what the desired temperature feels like in your hands. In other words use it only as a point of calibration for your hands and then dispense with it. I believe strongly that one should use their hands to control the steaming.

The problem of the thermometer is that they are too slow to react to the quickly rising temperatures, and by the time the thermometer hits the desired target temperature your milk will have soared well past the mark. Your hands are much better suited to the task - you just need to get them calibrated!

You can still use the thermometer, if you'd like, to measure the temperature of the milk after your hands have already told you to stop steaming, as once you stop steaming you are no longer injecting the thermal energy which is causing the temp rise in the first place. The temperature of the milk settles, and the thermometer has a chance to catch up to the milk temp.

In other words use the thermometer only for steady state readings - its use to tell you when to stop steaming is futile at best, and will have you steaming to too high a temperature.

There is one compensating factor, though, in the less expensive machines in that their lower steaming power will not take the milk through as rapid a temp rise and therefore will tend to lessen the errors when trying to read the temps dynamically. However when compared to the intuitiveness and simplicity of using just your hands, I'd still advise against using the thermometer for any dynamic readings.

[mar52]

I have the Starbuck's Espro Vapore. I think it was the original Via Venezia.

It was wonderful until I remodeled. I put it away and didn't take it out for months.

It hasn't worked since.

Now I have a Pasquini Livia 90. Now THAT'S a wonderful machine. (More than you want to spend though)

[sobriquet]

Just an update. I picked up the Via Venezia and tried it today. It's going back and I'll be ordering a Silvia. The build quality wasn't up to par and the espresso was just awful despite different tamping and grind settings. The shots were either ultra-quick or bitter.

[zin1953]

Wise choice! Let us know what you think of Miss Silvia . . .

[chuckl]

I'm having great results from Silvia, but it took me quite a while to work it out, be patient, get a good burr grinder and practice. don't get discouraged if a lot of your early attempts come spitting out of silvia and end up in the sink

[sobriquet]

Thanks for the encouragement. Do you mind if I ask what kind of grinder you're using, chuckl? I have a solis maestro right now and I read that it probably isn't up to dancing with Miss Silvia for very long. I'll probably upgrade the grinder to a Rancilio Rocky in the near future, but I'd rather wait at least a few months to do so - unless it's necessary to make the Silvia work I guess. No sense in buying a machine and not being able to use it.

Chuckl, how do you drink your espresso? Neat? I'm curious how the taste of a proper shot should taste in comparison to black coffee made from the same beans via a french press. I know enough to recognize a great cup of coffee when I taste one, but I'm starting to wonder whether my palate would recognize properly brewed espresso.

[zin1953]

If I'm not mistaken, you live in LA, right? Check out Intelligensia Coffee. They are a Chicago-based coffee roaster that opened up in LA. http://www.intelligentsiacoffee.com/ Try their straight shot, and you've KNOW what great espresso is/should be like.

Another option is Coffee Klatch Roasting, http://www.klatchroasting.com/

What kind of grinder are you using, if I may ask?

Cheers,
Jason

[cgfan]

Both excellent recommendations, to which I'd also add Caffe Luxxe of Santa Monica.

For the espresso newbie I'd also add the following note: that even amongst these "3rd wave" shops, each has developed their own distinct "taste profile". i.e.: every serious shop customizes or carefully selects their own espresso blend to fit their particular concept of what an espresso should taste like.

The longer and longer I work with espresso I've noticed that my own tastes have changed from the darker and more chocolaty styles, to the comparatively brighter, creamier styles of espresso. (This came as a surprise to even myself, as I normally like the "darker" tastes as exhibited in things like bitter-sweet chocolates or big cabernets.)

I find it handy when relating my experiences at a cafe to note separately how technically well an espresso or espresso drink is constructed, apart from its "style". That's because a shop may produce a technically perfect espresso, and in fact one that perhaps most people would enjoy, but yet to no fault of their own not match the style of espresso that I prefer. (Actually I enjoy them all, just some more than others!)

So I guess this is just a long way of saying that as you visit various shops it might not be a bad exercise to try and separate out the style of a shop's espresso from the technical aspects of their construction. A shop's style may not always suit you, but it still may have been a perfectly crafted espresso.

[chuckl]

good questions, Sobriquet. I use a Rocky, but try it with your solis, you might get good results. i started out drinking mostly lattes and caps, but as my results have improved, I probably drink as many neat espressos as milky ones. I think you'll know the real deal when you taste it. Curiously, I've found that my best results have been with "mild" roasted beans, like kona and guatemala and peru, as opposed to beans designamated "espresso." Experiment and see what tastes best. I'm curious what other espresso lovers use in their machines. Also, make sure you warm your Silvia up for at least half an hour. Once the boiler is not, it will be quite consistent. It's made of marine brass, or so they say, I haven't taken mine apart to check.

[gsshark]

When our DeLonghi died (after only 18 months!) my wife and I set out to find a really good reliable espresso machine that wasn't $1500. We ended up spending $300 on a Starbuck's Sirena. Made by Saeco, this this is AWESOME, quick to warm up, quick to steam milk, "walk away" espresso (after pushing the button), beautiful design. We buy best quality, locally roasted espresso, whole bean, and grind it in our 13 year old krups grinder until it sounds "just right". I brews great. I am by no means a Starbucks guy (I like good coffee, and theirs just isn't it, IMHO), but the machine is great. Buy it!

[zin1953]

Glad that works for you!

[chuckl]

making espresso is a balance between convenience and taste. sounds like you found the right equilibrium for yourself, gssshark.

[zin1953]

I've always liked this:

"Brewing espresso...unlike other methods of brewing coffee...IS rocket science..."

Kevin Knox and Julie Sheldon Huffaker,
Coffee Basics: A Quick and Easy Guide

[tim irvine]

a pressurized PF can generally be replaced with a non-pressurized PF...the big driver (assuming you have a terrific grinder and access to freshly roasted beans, hopefully not roasted to charcoal unless you like that taste), is what sort of drinks and what sorts of demands you anticipate...if you like milk drinks, get an HX machine. You will eventually want to upgrade to one anyway. I you mainly drink straight shots, save the money and get something more basic. If you are going to get WAY into it and work on technique, take a look at manuals, like the La Pavoni.

[zin1953]

Is this a reply to me? I'm confused . . . .

[vjenk]

Should I choose to purchase a non-pressurized portafilter for my Via Venezia, how will I know whether it will fit? Is there a risk of it not attaching properly to the machine? I don't really want to hack my portafilter since I'm new at this and I'd probably get worse results if my technique is bad.
Also, would tamping with a pressurized portafilter improve my coffee results? I know it's supposedly not necessary, but my shots come out between 10-15 seconds for a double. My Via Venezia did not come with a tamper at all, not even a plastic one. I wonder whether there is more than one model of Via Venezia.

[chuckl]

i don't know your machine, but 10-15 seconds is way too fast for a shot; it should be more like twice that. does it gush out? how does it taste? in my experience, it takes around 5 seconds to just get going, then forms a sort of mouse tail, as some have described it. if you do decide to use a tamper (and you definitely should), forget those cheap plastic tamps and get a heavier one made of metal, and maybe concave. i'd suggest working with your machine as it is and not hacking and perfect your technique. go over to coffee geek or home barista for more specific advice

[vjenk]

I wanted to go back up to the top here and say that anyone looking for a Via Venezia might go into the Starbucks store and look. For some reason they are $199 here in our stores and $280 online. You don't get the free coffee, but apparently that's not a problem! :)

[blindthief]

I also bought the Via Venezia, Starbucks was clearing them out 20% off the $229 pricetag in the store and they threw in a free pound of coffee and ground it for me. Unfortunately the one I bought leaked like a sieve and after a few visits back to the store, asked them to try another they had in the store but that one also leaked. These are not serviced in Canada at all and Canadians that buy them have to send them to the U.S. for service. Saeco advised me to return it because of the service hassle and the Starbucks store gave me no hassle to do that.

I went straight to a Rancilio dealer in Toronto, the Green Beanery, and bought the Rancilio Silvia and with the same Starbucks espresso grounds made an espresso and cappucino that were MUCH better than the Via Venezia. The Via coffee was OK, but pales in comparison to the coffee from the Rancilio.

Spend the extra for the Rancilio and don't bother with the Saeco. I regret not getting the Rancilio from the start.

[ThanksVille]

Starbuck's Via Venezia is the updated replacement for their old Barrista machine line which we purchased and relied upon for perhaps 4 years....until we got really serious about pursuing excellence and consistency in our coffee drinks. A six month stay in Rome changed our expectations and the Barrista machine just wasn't capable of more than OK intensity and limited quantities when hosting family dinner events. We saved up, sold off the Barrista to a college bound student and splurged for a killer machine from 1st Line Coffee where you get to try out every machine in their showroom until you find what suits your passion and taste using your own coffee or theirs. I will say, we got 4 years use out of the Barrista, but that is as far as I could go to recommend it.