492473 Sat Feb 23 07:47:04 -0800 2008 102 1 San Francisco Bay Area 0 3426941 I own a small cooking school in So Cal, and I'm bringing my staff to Berkeley in March for a fun two days of food and bonding. I've spent a fair amount of time there, and want to show them some of the haunts. Already on the list are Rockridge, Berk. Bowl and Monterey Mkt, the Scharffenberger tour, Cheese Board, Chez Panisse cafe, the various half priced bookstores (cookbook junkies), Spanish Table and a BART to the Ferry Bldg. (whew!) Looking for other must-dos, as well as a dinner suggestion...thinking La Note for bfast, and CP cafe for lunch one day, Ferry Bldg for the second....but for the only dinner--maybe A Cote? Please give me your ideas. Will have a car. We will be there for a lunch, dinner, bfast and lunch the second day, then we fly back. TIA Sat Feb 23 07:47:04 -0800 2008 13335 chez cherie 1 3426949 If you're here on a Sunday morning - the Thai Temple is an interesting scene. Close to the Berkeley Bowl also. There are many posts on the Thai Temple that help with ordering strategies.......just do a search on this board. Sat Feb 23 07:51:54 -0800 2008 3426941 10429 gordon wing 1 3426957 here's one link ..... http://www.chowhound.com/topics/412329 Sat Feb 23 07:55:11 -0800 2008 3426941 10429 gordon wing 2 3427012 we are there wed-thursday, but thanks for the tip--next time! Sat Feb 23 08:18:40 -0800 2008 3426957 13335 chez cherie 1 3427118 For dinner, how about Pizzaiolo? The food's great (chef-owner was the pizza chef at Chez Panisse for years), it's very convivial, and to me it's very much an only-in-Oakland style of business. À Côté is great too. Most interesting wine list in the area. There's a small but good all-organic farmers market on Thursdays from 3-7 two blocks from Chez Panisse. Sat Feb 23 09:04:21 -0800 2008 3426941 11369 Robert Lauriston 2 3427745 I would definitely say dinner at Pizzaiolo over A Cote -- I love A Cote, but I think they only take reservations early and late, and the wait can be long, especially for large groups (I'm not sure how big your staff is, but I'm guessing four or more). Pizzaiolo takes reservations, and is a really fun place for groups. I would say 900 Grayson or Bette's or Homemade Cafe for breakfast over La Note. I like breakfast at La Note, you could be anywhere, and the other three are very Berkeley kinds of places. Definitely do CP cafe on your first day for lunch, then you can wander around the area after that and go to Cheeseboard, Black Oak books, take a look at Gregorie (I like Gregorie, but I don't think it's worth it for one of your four meals here, if you were here for a little longer, I'd say so) etc. Monterey Market is great, but at this time of year it's not worth going to both it and Berkeley Bowl, so just go to the Bowl. Or you could even go to Oliveto downstairs for breakfast on your second day, and then spend that time in the Rockridge area. Sat Feb 23 13:19:09 -0800 2008 3427118 13525 JasmineG 3 3427807 À Côté takes reservations via opentable throughout the evening if you make them long enough in advance. Second on not doing both Monterey Market and Berkeley Bowl. Too similar and the Bowl is overall more impressive. Sat Feb 23 13:45:44 -0800 2008 3427745 11369 Robert Lauriston 3 3428517 I love 900 Grayson, but think if you are WOWing your people the locale might not do the trick. Although it is quintessential Berkeley. Sat Feb 23 19:04:31 -0800 2008 3427745 67902 Food Smith 1 3427176 This thread & its follow-up reports seem relevant http://www.chowhound.com/topics/458816 Sat Feb 23 09:34:50 -0800 2008 3426941 150398 Columba 2 3427240 That thread is rather unwieldy and a lot of it doesn't apply, so I'll pick out some highlights: Bakesale Betty's (near Rockridge, a few doors down from Pizzaiolo) Gregoire (in Gourmet Ghetto) Acme (original bakery, with Cafe Fanny next door) With such a limited amount of time, I wouldn't do both Berkeley Bowl and Monterey Market (the former is more centrally located). Maybe 900 Grayson (near Sharffen Berger) for lunch? I'm also not sure it's worth it to BART over to the Ferry Building on a non-farmer's market day -- there's plenty to keep you busy in the East Bay for 24 hours. Sat Feb 23 10:00:02 -0800 2008 3427176 10159 Ruth Lafler 2 3427254 That's a huge and largely irrelevant thread. This topic has a lot of ideas for a Berkeley-area food tour: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/42949 Sat Feb 23 10:05:04 -0800 2008 3427176 11369 Robert Lauriston 2 3427274 fabulous link--thanks! gregoire is def on the list now...still reading. Sat Feb 23 10:13:21 -0800 2008 3427176 13335 chez cherie 3 3427314 Gregoire's likely to be interesting to food professionals more for its unusual concept (upscale takeout) than for the food, which is high-quality but from the line cook's perspective not much different from any other short-order gig. Sat Feb 23 10:28:15 -0800 2008 3427274 11369 Robert Lauriston 4 3427829 I agree -- I wasn't suggesting a whole meal there, more a check-it-out and get a snack (potato puffs, dessert) visit. I think for a food professional it would be interesting to see how those skills can be applied in an innovative way. Sat Feb 23 13:57:23 -0800 2008 3427314 10159 Ruth Lafler 1 3427804 I'd spend some time on 4th St. Sketch Ice Cream is a must visit - best sweets shop in the East Bay. It's a total mom-and-pop operation as well, really friendly and talented owners. You can also check out the Pasta Shop and the Cafe Rouge Meat Market and Charcuterie (in the back of the restaurant). Sample the first rate teas at Teance, do an olive oil tasting at (I forget the name, Stone something), grab some coffee at Peets, peruse Napa Style, Sur La Table, and the extensive food and cooking section at Cody's books. Eccolo is a delicious, elegant lunch spot if you're looking for another lunch option. 4th St is located pretty close to both Scharffenberger, 900 Grayson, and Bettes, so it should be easy to squeeze into your schedule. I would actually opt for 4th St over Rockridge Hall, unless you plan on eating at Oliveto. Both hava a Pasta Shop. Rockridge Hall has a decent butcher, fishmonger, coffee shop, and produce market, which are alright for a home cook, but certainly not the "best of breed" in town, and hardly "wow-worthy" IMO. I prefer the produce at Monterey/Berk Bowl, the meat at Cafe Rouge, and the fish at Monterey Fish (near the Monterey Market). 4th St has more things that are well suited to visitors, more seating, and a more dynamic atmosphere. Gregoire can be tough with a large group, as seating is very limited. How many will you be? And I'll third the rec for dinner at Pizzaiolo. Also consider the Charles Chocolates Store and factory tour in Emeryville. I love their chocolate covered almonds. It's just a couple of blocks from Scharffenberger. Sat Feb 23 13:44:23 -0800 2008 3426941 10793 Morton the Mousse 2 3427885 Depending on when you come in March, Cody's may or may not still be on 4th St... http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/02/22/BU4FV6I9U.DTL&hw=cody&sn=001&sc=1000 I agree that 4th Street is worth a visit, though I think that the atmosphere is a little boring down there; it has a lot of chain stores that could be anywhere, but Sketch, Bette's, Cafe Rouge meat market, and the Pasta Shop are all good stops. Sat Feb 23 14:17:52 -0800 2008 3427804 13525 JasmineG 3 3427918 Most of the shops on 4th st are independently owned; Berkeley is pretty anti-chain. Sur La Table and Peets are chains, but high quality ones. Napa Style has just four retail outlets. Many of the smaller shops - The Gardener, Castle in the Air, Miki Paper, A La Folie, Thousand Cranes - are independently owned and quite unique. Sat Feb 23 14:28:10 -0800 2008 3427885 10793 Morton the Mousse 4 3428086 Berkeley may be anti-chain, but there are four chain homestores, three chain cosmetics stores, a chain travel store, and many others in just those few blocks. I go down to 4th Street and like parts of it, but it's an area for very upscale shoppers, and not all that representative of the character of Berkeley and the East Bay, so there are other parts of town that I would send a visitor for just a two day trip. Sat Feb 23 15:35:56 -0800 2008 3427918 13525 JasmineG 5 3428261 Though I see your point, I think the two most foodie centric stretches of Berkeley are 4th ST and the Gourmet Ghetto. It would be easy to visit both in one afternoon. Downtown is dead, college ave is too stretched out, Hopkins st is decent for home cooking purposes, Fanny/Acme/Kermit Lynch is OK but it will take you like 20 minutes to check it out. There is Market Hall in Oakland, but I'd opt for 4th st over Market Hall for the reasons I said above. Maybe prioritize the Gourmet Ghetto, Berkeley Bowl and the Ferry Building. But if there's time on the itinerary, I'd definitely check out 4th St. Esp. if you tacked it after a trip to Scharffenberger. Sketch, Teance, and Cafe Rouge alone are worth the trip IMO. The rest are just gravy. Sat Feb 23 16:50:50 -0800 2008 3428086 10793 Morton the Mousse 6 3447601 I might skip 4th street and head over to Vic's Chaat House. Fri Feb 29 11:38:51 -0800 2008 3428261 10784 Scrapironchef 7 3447768 I wouldn't recommend Vik's to someone visiting from LA. LA has better chaat houses, IMO. Fri Feb 29 13:00:39 -0800 2008 3447601 10793 Morton the Mousse 8 3447771 And they'll have had lunch. Fri Feb 29 13:01:07 -0800 2008 3447768 11369 Robert Lauriston 5 3435019 4th St? It's an upscale, outdoor shopping mall that accidently happens to have an ok restaurant or two. Easily the closest thing in Berkeley to LA or wherever our visitor is coming from. Plus it's anchored with Spenger's and Brennan's and food visitors should be kept far away from those two. At that end of town, the corner of Cedar and San Pablo with Cafe Fanny, the Acme bakery, and Kermit Lynch wine is a much better, more traditionally Berkeley option. Mon Feb 25 21:33:29 -0800 2008 3428086 21333 uh ... art 6 3435049 I don't know of anything like Sketch or Teance in Los Angeles. My folks live in LA, and they want to visit 4th St every time they're in town. Mon Feb 25 21:50:02 -0800 2008 3435019 10793 Morton the Mousse 4 3451133 I don't think of 4th Street as anti-chain anymore. There's CP Shades, Sur La Table, Peets, Restoration Hardware, Crate and Barrell, etc. I like Caffe 817 in downtown Oakland for breakfast, but, since that's pretty far from the Berkeley border....perhaps Oliveto's downstairs cafe serves a nice poached egg, thinly sliced ham and Acme Levain bread breakfast. Sat Mar 01 21:56:54 -0800 2008 3427918 10245 oakjoan 5 3451150 If they go to Caffe 817, though, they can check out used cookbooks at the Friends of the Library bookstore in the next block. http://www.fopl.org/products.htm Sat Mar 01 22:11:25 -0800 2008 3451133 10159 Ruth Lafler 3 3428159 Cody's sells only new books. Are any of the used bookstores particularly strong in cookbooks? Moe's isn't. Sat Feb 23 16:06:28 -0800 2008 3427885 11369 Robert Lauriston 4 3428180 I've had some great cookbook finds at both Black Oaks (right near Cheeseboard and CP, for the OP), and Shakespeare and Co. You're right about Moe's. Sat Feb 23 16:17:03 -0800 2008 3428159 13525 JasmineG 5 3428206 I'm wondering how many good cookbooks make it to used bookstores half priced shelves. Sat Feb 23 16:31:40 -0800 2008 3428180 105235 wolfe 6 3428471 Lots and lots! Sat Feb 23 18:41:46 -0800 2008 3428206 13525 JasmineG 6 3428669 "Half price" often means remainders, but I've bought the majority of my 200 or so cookbooks used locally. Sat Feb 23 20:25:44 -0800 2008 3428206 11369 Robert Lauriston 7 3435082 yes, but they only count if there are things scribbled in the margins and the pages are dog-eared... extra points for doughy finger prints. Mon Feb 25 22:18:52 -0800 2008 3428669 163722 hill food 5 3449700 yes, I've also had good luck at Black Oak Books, which I am often browsing just before dinner at CP :-) Unfortunately for OP in my opinion the best everyday (as opposed to high end or rare books, for which I think Black Oak is the best) used cookbook selection is at Green Apple in SF... Sat Mar 01 11:16:27 -0800 2008 3428180 10158 susancinsf 4 3428202 True, but their food and cooking section is enormous and excellent. Sat Feb 23 16:30:37 -0800 2008 3428159 10793 Morton the Mousse 4 3447590 I think Moe's is admirably strong in used cookbooks, actually, which was an implicit focus of the poster's question. (I assume that by "half price" s/he didn't literally mean remaindered recent titles, but good used books from all eras.) It has good coverage in western Europe and most of Asia, as well as health/vegetarian, wine, and miscellaneous gastronomia. And you'll pay a fraction of what Black Oak charges for just about any collectible title. I'd recommend it as the first stop on any local book-collecting tour in this subject area. (Black Oak has the best selection of high-end collectible books on food and cooking, including a rare-book selection as well as their open-shelf titles, but their prices are nearly outrageous ... you'll do a lot better trolling eBay.) Another option would be the Friends of the Berkeley Public LIbrary store in that gloomy mall just off Telegraph, between Durant and Channing, I think. The stock of used food books isn't huge, but it turns over nicely ... though that's of limited comfort to one-time visitors. Still, it's just a couple of blocks north of Moe's... Pegasus on Solano has lots of food books too, though not a lot of what I'd call "collectible" stuff (I'm a collector). Still, you could fill a lot of holes in your topical accumulations there, for not a ton of money. Finally, if your bookworms are content to browse but not buy, there's a surprisingly broad selection of older food books in the Koshland Biosciences Library on the Berkeley campus ... which now houses the collection that was originally assembled by the Agriculture Department a long time ago, and housed in Giannini Hall for ages. Very much worth checking out for period recipe-hounds.... Fri Feb 29 11:33:16 -0800 2008 3428159 27920 jonking 5 3449635 "Pegasus on Solano has lots of food books too, though not a lot of what I'd call "collectible" stuff (I'm a collector). Still, you could fill a lot of holes in your topical accumulations there, for not a ton of money." This is basically what I do on these treks, and I hit that Pegasus, as well as the one in Rockridge. I've never been to Moe's (??!), so I'm quite excited about this tidbit. Thanks! I do love Black Oak, even if prices might not be so great---I have found a couple treasures there over the years. Several of my "girls" are looking to fill in gaps in their Donna Hay collections, which I hardly ever see used...any suggestions there? Sat Mar 01 10:51:25 -0800 2008 3447590 13335 chez cherie 6 3451070 I peruse the used books at all the stores mentioned frequently and rarely see used Donna Hay books. Sat Mar 01 21:16:15 -0800 2008 3449635 10133 wally 4 3451136 Moe's used selection may be large, but there's not much of interest to me there. Recently, I spent a whole afternoon there trying to spend my certificate obtained by turning in lots of books for exchange. Another library bookshop is the Bookmark on Washington btwn 7th and 8th in Old Oakland. Very reasonable and the people there are friendly. They also have back issues of Gourmet, etc. Sat Mar 01 21:59:55 -0800 2008 3428159 10245 oakjoan 5 3451858 I have bought a few obscure never-released-in-the-US cookbooks at Moe's, English-language stuff from publishing houses in Hong Kong, Singapore, India, and so on. Other than that, I haven't found much of interest in their cookbook section. Sun Mar 02 09:49:19 -0800 2008 3451136 11369 Robert Lauriston 2 3428506 yes, i've done the 4th street thing many times, and should have included it in my original post, although if we get really short on time, i think i'd opt for rockridge over 4th....is sketch new? because i haven't been there, and i thought i'd covered the 4th st area well. what is it near, or what did it used to be? is sketch better than ici, if we only have time for one ice cream/gelato stop? (perish the thought!) really appreciate all the suggestions...there will be 6 of us. gregoire must also be fairly new? i am thinking, as one poster suggested, that a quick pop in there, to look around (and maybe a snack, because, you know, we'll need to keep our strength up!) will be in order. leaning toward pizzaiolo now, thanks to the votes in its favor. all the suggestions are very much appreciated. i have a great staff, and i want to show them a great time in one of my favorite food haunts! Sat Feb 23 18:58:39 -0800 2008 3427804 13335 chez cherie 3 3428525 Sketch is relatively new, it's next door to Bette's (set back from the street a little). I like both it and Ici, they're very different -- Sketch is soft serve style, and they have lots of toppings that you can add, while Ici is more traditional ice cream, but has a lot of flavors with bits added to it. Ici also has a lot more daily flavors than Sketch does. I wouldn't go down to 4th Street just for Sketch if you're short on time and not planning to go down there otherwise -- Ici is on the way to Rockridge from Berkeley, so is a relatively easy stop. However, it would be fun for you to see the difference between the two, and to sample them both! Gregoire is TINY, so there wouldn't be much looking around, the potato puffs would be fun to try out, though. I hope you have a fun trip, and that you report back to let us know what all of your stops were. Sat Feb 23 19:08:14 -0800 2008 3428506 13525 JasmineG 3 3428686 Sketch and Ici are both great. Sketch was started by fomer Aqua pastry chef Eric Shelton and his wife, Ruthie Planas, who was his assistant at Aqua. Ici was started by former Chez Panisse pastry chef Mary Canales. Ici's product is more to my personal taste, but I think Sketch takes a more original and unique approach, so might be more interesting for your group. Sat Feb 23 20:35:31 -0800 2008 3428506 11369 Robert Lauriston 4 3429341 well, if we have to eat ice cream twice, i guess we will just have to grin and bear it! i have been to ici once, and it is certainly on the rockridge circuit, but i think i need to see sketch, so we'll work that in. i hope to rough out an itinerary today, and will post for comment. thanks to all for your great input! i really want this to be a memorable get-away for my staff. Sun Feb 24 08:07:40 -0800 2008 3428686 13335 chez cherie 5 3429518 Ici's actually in the Elmwood, around Ashby and College. Lines can be insanely long and if you're doing a culinary tour of Rockridge there's nowhere else of great culinary interest to draw you north of La Farine. Sun Feb 24 09:25:31 -0800 2008 3429341 11369 Robert Lauriston 6 3429619 (on the way our of rockridge, we can just go down college and hit ici, no?) Sun Feb 24 09:56:13 -0800 2008 3429518 13335 chez cherie 7 3429638 Sure, except between the traffic backed up for a block or three south of Ashby on College, the difficulty of finding a parking space, and the line at Ici, it might take you most of an hour. Sun Feb 24 10:00:33 -0800 2008 3429619 11369 Robert Lauriston 8 3429690 It's not usually that bad in the middle of the day on a weekday. Since we're talking Rockridge/Elmwood, one more place you might consider for either lunch or dinner is Wood Tavern. Sun Feb 24 10:18:50 -0800 2008 3429638 10159 Ruth Lafler 9 3429696 Yeah, I agree, I do that drive all the time (and rarely have that much troule with parking, especially during the day), and I don't think it will take nearly that long. Also, Wood Tavern would be fantastic for lunch or dinner, but it will be a challenge to make a reservation for dinner for six there, so I'd suggest lunch. Sun Feb 24 10:21:24 -0800 2008 3429690 13525 JasmineG 9 3429761 Traffic was backed up past Woolsey (three blocks) when I was walking by around 2pm on Friday. I walk through there all the time and I'm always amazed at how many people happily sit in traffic instead of learning the detours. Sun Feb 24 10:45:44 -0800 2008 3429690 11369 Robert Lauriston 9 3441593 absolutely second Wood Tavern. and have the pork belly, in whatever incarnation they serve it that day! Wed Feb 27 16:26:54 -0800 2008 3429690 44619 mariacarmen 10 3444546 my policy is to ALWAYS have the pork belly, in whatever incarnation it is ever presented. thanks for the suggestion. busy week, but i hope to scratch out a preliminary itinerary this weekend. very much appreciate all the suggestions. Thu Feb 28 13:04:16 -0800 2008 3441593 13335 chez cherie 8 3435041 For Ici, you park on the street approximately here: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=2640+Russell+St,+Berkeley,+CA+94705,+USA&sll=37.858215,-122.255186&sspn=0.00471,0.00898&ie=UTF8&ll=37.858475,-122.254035&spn=0.001177,0.002245&t=h&z=19 Note that the street is blocked just before College so approach from the west. 2 hours, no meters, always a space. That parking lot that's visible is nearly always full. Mon Feb 25 21:44:21 -0800 2008 3429638 21333 uh ... art 8 3436556 The line at Ici isn't really that bad except around 8:00 at night. I live about two blocks away and haven't really had trouble getting in and out within about 20 minutes or less most of the time. There are always ways around the traffic (ie, plenty of detours, etc.), which isn't always as bad as you say. Tue Feb 26 10:43:58 -0800 2008 3429638 25012 chemchef 9 3436666 As you say, 20 minutes. And you don't have to look for parking. The line, traffic, and parking aren't necessarily reasons to skip it, just something to be aware of if time is short. Tue Feb 26 11:10:54 -0800 2008 3436556 11369 Robert Lauriston 10 3436868 of course! Tue Feb 26 11:54:07 -0800 2008 3436666 25012 chemchef 5 3435053 Personally, I prefer Sketch to Ici, though it's definitely a matter of personal preference. One place Sketch really shines is in their house made candy. Excellent salt toffee, marshmallows and caramel corn. Mon Feb 25 21:50:46 -0800 2008 3429341 10793 Morton the Mousse 6 3435151 Sketch and Ici will both "wow" your staff because they will say "Wow! We're paying $5 for a tiny scoop of ice cream!" Some people are ok with that -- I guess it's a matter of personal preference. For my money, though, the wow-est, ice cream in the area is being hand-churned by Luis and his mom down at Nieves Cinco de Mayo in Fruitvale: http://www.eastbayexpress.com/restaurants/que_dolce__fruitvale/Content?oid=483131 Round-trip bart tickets and a huge pile of ice cream will set you back about the same as a cone at Ici. The cheese ice cream is astounding. As is the corn. Mon Feb 25 23:14:01 -0800 2008 3435053 21333 uh ... art 7 3436348 It's really different, though. Nieves Cinco de Mayo is not really ice cream, more like ice milk. It's not as rich and creamy and has an icier mouthfeel. That said, the flavors are amazing. If you follow the comments link, you'll see other threads with a more in-depth discussion. Tue Feb 26 10:01:01 -0800 2008 3435151 10159 Ruth Lafler 8 3437911 The icy mouthfeel may be a result of having trouble controlling airflow during the hand churning process. Sketch invested a mint in state of the art machines because they are completely obsessed with controlling temperature and texture. Part of the reason that I don't mind spending $4+ for a sundae is because I can't even attempt to replicate the product of those beautiful machines at home. My current favorite at Sketch is the Lemon Verbena soft serve topped with extra virgin olive oil and salt. Light, tangy, herbaceous flavor balanced by the smooth oil and kick of saltines. Very refreshing. Tue Feb 26 16:11:45 -0800 2008 3436348 10793 Morton the Mousse 9 3437995 The mouthfeel is the result of using milk, not cream, and no eggs. It's just a completely different product. I wasn't criticizing either product, just describing the fact that they aren't really equivalent and shouldn't be spoken of as if they were interchangeable. Tue Feb 26 16:35:05 -0800 2008 3437911 10159 Ruth Lafler 10 3438050 Perhaps I misinterpreted the meaning of the word "icier." Are you saying that when the ice cream melts in your mouth that there are small ice crystals? Tue Feb 26 16:51:29 -0800 2008 3437995 10793 Morton the Mousse 11 3438125 No, what I meant is that it's icier -- on the scale from frozen fat to frozen water, it's closer to the frozen water (aka ice) end of the scale than true ice cream is. Why don't you go try it for yourself and see what it's like? Tue Feb 26 17:13:00 -0800 2008 3438050 10159 Ruth Lafler 12 3438263 Thank you for clarifying the terms - now I have a better understanding of the product. Tue Feb 26 18:08:34 -0800 2008 3438125 10793 Morton the Mousse 8 3451148 Ruth: Isn't Sketch ice cream made with milk also? Sat Mar 01 22:09:36 -0800 2008 3436348 10245 oakjoan 9 3451862 Yes, per their Web site, they use "Straus Organic milk (no cream or eggs)." http://www.sketchicecream.com/about.html Sun Mar 02 09:50:36 -0800 2008 3451148 11369 Robert Lauriston 9 3452052 Strauss whole milk has a higher butterfat content than most types of milk, so the result is somewhere between gelato and ice cream in terms of creaminess. Sun Mar 02 11:08:45 -0800 2008 3451148 10793 Morton the Mousse 10 3452389 > "Strauss whole milk has a higher butterfat content than most types of milk," If by other types you mean reduced-fat types, then by definition yes. If you mean Strauss' whole milk has more butterfat than other brands of whole milk, then no. Strauss claims 8g fat per 240mL milk: http://www.strausfamilycreamery.com/nutrition.php?pid=3 Clover organic -- 8g per 240mL: http://cloverstornetta.com/show/xmlsite/xml-standard.xml/xsl-generic_list_1_page.xsl/start_id-pncpcgoplncghgjdcoalbkgenkbhabmgnginepjp/ Even at the low end, Berkeley Farms / Dean Foods is 8g/240mL: http://www.berkeleyfarms.com/products/nutritional-info/NutritionViewandPrint_whole_milk.pdf Sun Mar 02 13:09:25 -0800 2008 3452052 21333 uh ... art 7 3436535 actually, Ici is $4.25 for a double scoop cone, which is plenty of ice cream even for me, a self-proclaimed ice cream fanatic. Granted, it isn't cheap, but I don't think its too much to pay for that degree of quality. Also, their house-made candies are every bit as good as Sketch's, particularly the cinnamon-pecan brittle. I was not really wowed by the cookies that I've tried at Sketch, though. I used to LOVE Sketch before their switch to soft serve. I thought that the silky texture and the intensity of the flavor really shined before those machines. Still, I agree that both places are worth checking out. Tue Feb 26 10:39:46 -0800 2008 3435151 25012 chemchef 8 3437898 Yeah. Not sure where that $5 number is coming from. A couple weeks ago they were charging $2.75 for a single scoop in a cup. The scoop might seem "tiny" to some, but it's always enough to satisfy me. Considering that Starbuck's and the like will charge you $2.00+ for a mass-produced hunk of coffee cake that is no more satisfying, I guess I don't see Ici's prices as being totally out of whack. Even though I live practically right around the corner from the place, I view a scoop from Ici as an occasional treat as opposed to a daily requirement. Maybe one day when I'm feeling particularly flush, I'll spring for $6.90 in bus and BART fare to try a scoop at Nieves Cinco de Mayo. I sure hope that scoop worth the investment of $8.00 and an hour on mass transit. ;-) Tue Feb 26 16:06:45 -0800 2008 3436535 86822 hohokam 9 3438100 "Yeah. Not sure where that $5 number is coming from" It's coming from the adjacent word "cone", the implication of sales tax, the way that adding "approximately" to the sentence didn't scan well, and the fact that I was attempting to make a rhetorical point rather than quibble over pennies. No Morton, I don't think the 5 de Mayo mouthfeel is a defect in his equipment purchasing decisions. He seems pretty happy with the outcome. The overrun on his stuff is pretty close to zero. Also, he seemed quite happy to dish out whatever was still soft in the churn, which is definitely going to be clear of any iciness so that might be the way to go if there are concerns. Personally, it tastes like regular, creamy ice cream to me. With flavors that are just this side of nuts :) But all that aside, the reason I even brought the place up was because the post is about a tour for folks in a cooking school. If we're sending them to taste the best that money can buy extruded from a half million dollars worth of industrial equipment, it might be interesting to compare and contrast with what a single crazy man with an ice bucket and a spoon and a giant heart can do. Tue Feb 26 17:03:53 -0800 2008 3437898 21333 uh ... art 10 3438209 OK. With the cone, it's $3.25. No sales tax is charged. Your rhetorical point focused pretty heavily on the cost, especially with the addition of the bit about BART fare. So, it did seem that you meant to quibble over pennies or quarters or some other denomination. Anyhow, I'm glad I now know about the place in Fruitvale. Thanks for bringing in into the discussion. Tue Feb 26 17:44:27 -0800 2008 3438100 86822 hohokam 6 3438179 I have to vote for Sketch over Ici as well. . .Eric and Ruthie are so talented and the flavors of all their items are so pure. I am obsessed by their salted toffee. .. . I taught myself how to make a reasonable version but it's always nicer when someone else makes it for you. I love the new soft serve. . . but have a soft spot for frozen custards which this reminds me of to the highest degree. I am not a big fan of Ici but I am definitely in the minority. If you decide to go to Pizzaiolo, and you're in the neighborhood early enough, take your group to Bakesale Betty. . .nicest people on earth and my favorite Oatmeal cookie in the world. Tue Feb 26 17:34:24 -0800 2008 3435053 169526 pastryqueen 7 3438281 No, you are not in the minority of not being a fan of Ici. Every now and then when I read all these rah-rah Ici reports I give them another try ... and it always ticks me off. Well, good for them .. they have their fan club ... I don't think I will ever be in on that. I prefer Sketch ... besides the people at Sketch are actually glad you came into the shop and remember you. Personal preference. I just like Sketch way better. Tue Feb 26 18:12:43 -0800 2008 3438179 10264 rworange 1 3475090 so, with all the recs. in hand, i need to start planning the timeline. here's my first go. (we move fast, when food's involved, so i know this is tight, but we want to hit as many spots as we can). arrive oakland 11 am, grab car, head to shattuck. blackoak, cheeseboard (look, not eat) and chez p for lunch 1:30 (res in place) take a peek at gregoire after lunch? or should we save this for another timeslot? drop bags at hotel berk bowl (again, this will be a look,not shop thing, for the most part, as we are not cooking on the trip...but i think the bounty of the produce dept is something they should see/will love) then maybe 4th st...or rockridge i'm wondering about your thoughts as to pizzaiolo vs wood tavern for dinner the first night, after the cp lunch? bookstores? blissful sleep bfast still under consideration...leaning toward la note, selfishly...had a memorable bfast there on a previous visit that lingers and colors my perspective (and i don't even like bfast...) sharffenberger tour BART to Ferry Bldg. shop and lunch BART back. Rockridge or 4th st. early dinner at wood tavern or pizziolo (both start serving at 5:30, which should work, both for securing reservations and for our 8 pm flight) oh, jeez...i forgot the spanish table et al on san pablo...where will that fit? also want to check out moe's--which leg is best for that? your input is much appreciated. everyone is excited about the trip, and i want to to be a wonderful memory for all my women, who work so hard with me. Sun Mar 09 10:45:55 -0700 2008 3426941 13335 chez cherie 2 3475098 If you have already checked http://www.gregoirerestaurant.com/ then a peek should be enough. Sun Mar 09 10:51:58 -0700 2008 3475090 105235 wolfe 2 3475107 Gregoire's right around the corner from Chez Panisse, so after lunch is a good time to check it out. Spanish Table is seven blocks from Fourth Street, easy to combine the two. Moe's is more or less on the way from Fourth Street to Pizzaiolo (Durant to Telegraph). Pizzaiolo over Wood Tavern for the first dinner. I love both but Pizzaiolo's a more personal enterprise and the atmosphere's much more fun and festive for a large group. Menu's not too similar to Chez Panisse. I don't have much use for breakfast either, and loved La Note. Not your stereotypical menu. If you go to Fourth Street and Pizzaiolo the first night, you can hit Rockridge and Wood Tavern (five blocks from BART) the second. Sun Mar 09 10:54:28 -0700 2008 3475090 11369 Robert Lauriston 3 3480233 how's this looking? day one arrive oakland 11 am, grab car, head to shattuck. blackoak, cheeseboard (look, not eat) and chez p for lunch 1:30 (res in place) take a peek at gregoire -- drop bags at hotel berk bowl (again, this will be a look,not shop thing, for the most part, as we are not cooking on the trip...but i think the bounty of the produce dept is something they should see/will love) 4th st...sketch ice cream poss sake tasting spanish table bookstores? moe’s bookstore pizzaiolo dinner (res) blissful sleep (day 2) bfast still under consideration...leaning toward la note, selfishly...had a memorable bfast there on a previous visit that lingers and colors my perspective (and i don't even like bfast...) sharffenberger tour 10:30 res BART to Ferry Bldg. shop and lunch BART back. Rockridge shopping (ici if we feel like it), then wood tavern for early dinner (res) before heading to airport Mon Mar 10 20:45:42 -0700 2008 3475107 13335 chez cherie 4 3480322 Beautiful. I'll be impressed if you can walk out of the Cheeseboard cheese shop without buying something. Sake tasting should be easy to add - the factory is just a couple of blocks from Sketch. If you have any tea fans in your group, make sure to stop by Teance on 4th St - it's unlike any tea shop that I've visited in LA. You should also poke your heads in the Cafe Rouge Butcher Shop (back of the restaurant) a rather unique place dedicated to high quality charcuterie. My new favorite thing at Sketch is the waffle ice cream sundae. Something about the warm, light, crispy waffle just brings this to the next level of ice cream deliciousness. It's a bit pricey, but well worth it. I also have trouble leaving without buying a little cake or some of their excellent candies. Have you made any concrete Ferry Building plans? What days will you be in town? I'm assuming you wont be there on a Saturday when the fabulous Farmers' Market will be in full swing. If you will be, that in itself is grounds for another thread. If not, consider lunch at Slanted Door. Be sure to check out Rechiutti for the fabulous Fleur de Sel caramels; Boulette's Larder (although you'll be tempted to take out a second mortgage on your home the second you walk in the door); Acme Bread (assuming you don't visit the original location in Berkeley); and Cowgirl Creamery. I adore Prather Ranch, but I don't see how raw meat would be much use to you. Miette gets pretty negative reviews on this board - I prefer the pastry at Frog Hollow. This website has the definitive guide to chowing the Ferry Building (minus the farmers' market). Don't waste your precious stomach space on Cioa Bella gelato - it will pale in comparison to Sketch and Ici. http://www.bunrab.com/yummychow/MetroMenus/SFferry/MMSFferry1.html Mon Mar 10 21:31:30 -0700 2008 3480233 10793 Morton the Mousse 4 3480542 >>" cheeseboard (look, not eat) " Looks great except for the above. Pick some random cheese region/type (spanish blue or something) and talk to the cheese guy about it. He/she will know more than you can imagine. Buy a half pound or so. You've got a lull in the afternoon where it will come in handy. Now, when you're at the Spanish Table you're also about four blocks south of the Acme Bakery at San Pablo and Cedar. Go there. Get a couple of loaves of Pain Epi and maybe a bottle of something French from Kermit Lynch next door. Remember to bring a corkscrew. There's your mid-afternoon snack. And when you get to the Berkeley Bowl, it's currently citrus season. Buy a bag of assorted tangerines and oranges to get you started the next morning. Personally, I hate La Note (bad coffee, chewy pancakes). Homemade Cafe is a much more "Berkeley" joint that I'd recommend. Tue Mar 11 00:35:55 -0700 2008 3480233 21333 uh ... art 5 3481328 thanks for the tips--and you are right..when i say "look, don't eat", i mean "sample and make small purchases, don't gorge". fear not, we will not miss acme. when i first started coming up to berkeley for food fixes, i would stay at the golden bear, which i considered the golden triangle, directly across from fanny-acme-lynch. cafe rouge has nearly always been an eating stop for me, but i've been lured away by the promise of things new and wonderous at wood tavern and pizzaiolo. we will be ooohing and ahhing at the pasta shop offerings, and will pop into rouge butcher case...crepinettes, anyone? since i am scheduling so much of this, i was thinking of letting them loose to go nuts at the ferry bldg, with no structure except an end time...might be fun to roam in pairs and then link up and compare notes? (for me, a duck sandwich from lulu and a glass of wine next door sounds good...or maybe something from boulette's. and chocolate. definitely chocolate.) this is shaping right up, thanks to your generous suggestions...really looking forward to the trip. Tue Mar 11 08:31:06 -0700 2008 3480542 13335 chez cherie 6 3481806 The Pasta Shop sells the entire line of Fra' Mani products, which are another local "wow". Tue Mar 11 10:07:11 -0700 2008 3481328 21333 uh ... art 1 3478954 Go for a sake tasting at Takara Sake near 4th and Addison in Berkeley. It's a lovely showroom and they are generous. Mon Mar 10 14:05:11 -0700 2008 3426941 172526 saffrongold 2 3508753 Don't forget Bay Area coffee. If you can make to the Blue Bottle Cafe in the City that would be stellar as an example of what you can do with coffee in terms of presentation since it's really more of an upscale restaurant rather than just a cafe. But you should definitely try Blue Bottle at the Ferry Plaza. Ritual coffee on Valencia would also a worthwhile stop. Wed Mar 19 15:20:31 -0700 2008 3478954 154219 ManSeekingCoffee 3 3510513 coffee. yes, we will definitely need. coffee. thanks for that--i didn't know blue bottle had af erry bldg location. thanks. looking forward to it..will post results of our adventures soon. Thu Mar 20 07:39:05 -0700 2008 3508753 13335 chez cherie 4 3510784 Don't want to hijack the topic but could you pinpoint the Blue Bottle location at the Ferry Building? Thu Mar 20 08:50:34 -0700 2008 3510513 169233 grayelf 5 3510819 There isn't one in the Ferry Bldg, but they do have two stands at the Saturday farmer's market at the Ferry Bldg. Thu Mar 20 09:00:56 -0700 2008 3510784 25012 chemchef 6 3542039 Sorry, I meant at the market! Sat Mar 29 21:53:09 -0700 2008 3510819 169233 grayelf 7 3542121 There is one stand on the front of the building under the overhang, and one on the south side of the building almost at the corner. There are usually lines. Sat Mar 29 23:01:29 -0700 2008 3542039 10133 wally 8 3542953 Thanks, that's great pinpointing. SO will make a beeline when we get there at 8 am to get his fix early. He waited for 20 minutes last time at Peet's (?) for what I gather is a lesser brew... Sun Mar 30 10:35:08 -0700 2008 3542121 169233 grayelf 9 3542984 The one on the South side is usually open a little before 8, I think and it is right next to (west of) Fatted Calf. Sun Mar 30 10:46:53 -0700 2008 3542953 10133 wally 4 3511115 In the East Bay, you can get Blue Bottle: -At Guerilla Cafe in the Gourmet Ghetto -At Sketch Ice Cream on 4th St -At Tacubaya on 4th St -At Pizzaiolo Thu Mar 20 10:11:24 -0700 2008 3510513 10793 Morton the Mousse 5 3511139 And at the Berkeley Farmer's Market Thu Mar 20 10:15:12 -0700 2008 3511115 10133 wally 6 3511388 And the Temescal farmers market Thu Mar 20 11:15:56 -0700 2008 3511139 10264 rworange 5 3513115 another reason to hit sketch. sold. Thu Mar 20 19:24:33 -0700 2008 3511115 13335 chez cherie 6 3541666 so, we have returned, victorious. thanks to all who offered suggestions--we had a glorious 30+ hours. we began at black oak, and then had the most amazing meal in the cafe at chez panisse...a roasted cauliflower toast, marinated beet and mache salad that i loved, a rocket, cardoon and parm salad, a hand-stretched mozzarella with fava beans, spring onions, chervil and mint that was scrumptious. mains included orecchiette with morels and english peas, a grilled mary's Farm chicken paillard with shoestring spuds, snap peas and sage, a couple orders of halibut with artichokes, meyer lemon, potaotes, rosemary and black olives. that was my order, and i loved it--the rosemary and olives did not overpower the fish, and the dish really sang.a pizza with tomato and egg was also shared...everything washed down with several bootles of corbieres gris de gris rose. that seemed so springlike, and chez panisse-y, somehow. we ordered several desserts. the all around winner, i think, was the creme fraiche panna cotta with strawberries and a meringue cookie. that panna cotta seemed like it just had the box of gelatin set beside it for a few minutes...it was the most sofly-held together, creamy mound of goodness. the rhubarb tart was great--several at the table had never had rhubarb! and then alice waters came to chat with us, sent over dessert, and invited us to tour the kitchen... no, i am not even kidding. that really happened. after the lunch we had (beyond fab) and that encounter, we pretty much felt like we could just head back to the airport and go home....it was a life moment, for sure. we headed to the cheese board, but truly, all of our heads were still back at chez panisse, so we wandered in a daze. then a quick stop at the spanish table, where i could not resist the $150 per pound iberico. ( only got a 1/4 lb, and we never got around to tasting it on the trip, so i brought it home.) dinner at pizzaiolo was amazing, tho' we thought we'd never eat again after that lunch, we did! a black trumpet mushroom and gremolata pizza, baby artichokes and spring onions fritto misto, an avocado and citrus salad with Marash pepper, ribolitta, two polentas (one with mascarpone and one with gorgonzola, rapini with garlic and chile, and an order of fresh pea ravioli with butter and sage. we shared everything, and it was wonderful. (we have two vegetarians in the group, and as it turned out, everything we ordered was veg!) then off to ici. various flavors were sampled...i can't remember them all, but i enjoyed the honey-bay laurel, and the candied meyer lemon. i like that the ice creams are not too cloyingly sweet. just right for my palate. we did la note for breakfast (i just couldn't tear myself away) and it was thoroughly enjoyed. that cote nord hits the spot for me--creamy soft scrambled eggy goodness, on top of levain and goat cheese? yes. and those potatoes...i can not resist them. then off to the scharrfen berger tour. after that, i gave the girls the option to BART to the ferry bldg, or putter more in berkeley, and berk won the toss. so we 4th streeted, visiting our first pasta shoppe of the day, and the gardener, etc. i was underwhelmed by sketch...might have caught them on an off day, but the fellow behind the counter was a little rude, i thought, and we ended up leaving without even tasting anything. (he didn't want us to photograph the ice cream scoops on the wall...whatever... they were just ice cream scoops, but it was the way he said it that was off putting. btw, chez panisse had no problem with photos of any and everything....) none of the listed flavors were compelling enough to stay, and no tastes were offered, though we were the only people in the store. contrast that with ici, which was hopping at 9:15 on a wednesday evening, and they were happy to give as many tastes as anyone wanted--on real spoons, for heaven's sake....i wish sketch well, but it was an underwhelming first visit.) off to berkeley bowl, where everyone was properly astounded by the array of glorious produce...there must have been 15 types of radishes, and maybe 30 of apples. several people grabbed snacks there, and then we headed to rockridge. we wandered separately and together. i opted for a lovely potato, red onion and bleu cheese tart and glass of pinot grigio at oliveto, which hit the spot. another pasta shop, a nip into maison d'etre and pendragon, and we were off to our early res at wood tavern. OH. MY. GOD. that meal was every bit as fab as chez panisse (well, without the alice.). we did the butcher block and the cheese board, and then shared crispy pork belly (!!!!), a savoy cabbage-rhubarb salad, sautted shaved brussels sprouts with almonds, meyer lemon and parmesan, fusilli with pork sugo, a grilled double cut pork chop with dates and pt reyes bleu, with bacon vinaigrette. it was all groaningly fab, and the wine we had was an amazing pick--copain syrah called l'hiver. it went soooo well with the charcuterie and all the other flavors--i immediately ordered a case when i got home. but the thing on that menu, out of all the terrific flavors we had and loved, the flavor i am still mulling over in my head, and would have ordered another of, for dessert, had we had time, was the roasted marrow bones with sherry caramelized onions, and duxelle crostini. great god almighty, that was heaven...one of my girls regretted not snagging a bone to gnaw on on the flight back. all in all, it was a terrific adventure for us all, and a great first visit to the berkeley food scene for several of them. i don't think i would have stumbled on wood tavern without this board, and i know i would not have found pizzaiolo, so many thanks for helping to make our team-building trip a rousing success. cheers! Sat Mar 29 18:25:30 -0700 2008 3513115 13335 chez cherie 7 3541709 Excellent choices. Were the marrow bones normal marrow bones, with marrow in the middle? I know that's a bizarre question but: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/407896#3467082 Sat Mar 29 18:47:04 -0700 2008 3541666 11369 Robert Lauriston 8 3541736 To-marrow and to-marrow and to-marrow Sat Mar 29 19:02:14 -0700 2008 3541709 105235 wolfe 8 3541837 yes, they were real bones with real, succulent, marrow. beef buttah. Sat Mar 29 19:53:59 -0700 2008 3541709 13335 chez cherie 7 3541745 Really great report, Cherie! Thanks for checking back in and telling us how it all went... Sat Mar 29 19:05:30 -0700 2008 3541666 16933 Carrie 218 7 3541891 Terrific report! I'm glad you were able to fulfill your goal of wowing them! Sat Mar 29 20:20:45 -0700 2008 3541666 10159 Ruth Lafler 7 3542928 Adding some links: Sun Mar 30 10:25:20 -0700 2008 3541666 11369 Robert Lauriston 8 3543177 thanks. i should have done that, and here are a few more: Sun Mar 30 11:50:56 -0700 2008 3542928 13335 chez cherie 5 3546378 ...and at Ici on College Ave. Sorry, just noticed that this post did not come up as a reply to Morton's list of EB places that serve Blue Bottle Coffee, as I had intended. Mon Mar 31 12:27:46 -0700 2008 3511115 25012 chemchef