Chinese Table Etiquette Question

[bob192]

Enjoying yet another awesome $5.00 lunch at NYC's Amazing 66 (66 Mott Street) I was holding my rice bowl up close to my mouth, the better to facilitate hoovering the rice, when I noticed that each of the other dinders at the big table, all young up-scale ABC's (American born Chinese, as they call themselves) had spooned their rice onto their plates. Was I being less than mannerly by eating directly from my lifted rice bowl?

[Cinnamon]

Related questions: When eating with chopsticks and there's a larger-than-bite-size piece of meat on the plate, what do you do? Also, any special etiquette for udon or small, incredibly slippery rice noodles that try to evade spoon and chopsticks alike?

[Humbucker]

If it's soft enough, cut the food with your chopsticks. If it isn't just eat it bite by bite. If it's something like a shrimp or chicken wing, use your hands.

Slippery noodles are a pain to serve. I like to use two spoons or two forks as tongs, but even then splash-age is pretty inevitable. Those vermicelli noodles are the worst.

[jecho]

When we vacationed in Japan, our tour guide compared differences in Japanese and Chinese dining etiquette. One of the things he said was a huge no no was to use your chopsticks and pickup something and deliver it to your neighbors dish. It was strictly a no touch zone. Whereas, Chinese dining, your host will pile on food with their own chop sticks.

[ipsedixit]

Wrong. In Chinese dining, your host will pile on food with THE COMMUNAL chop sticks.

[Blueicus]

Communal chop sticks have only been more common (at least amongst my circle) recently. It's not considered polite to be sucking on or touching those chopsticks with your mouth too often anyways.

[ipsedixit]

???

Who in the world is going to be doing the following with communal chopsticks ... "sucking on or touching those chopsticks with your mouth"??

[Blueicus]

I mean with their own chopsticks.

[Sam Fujisaka]

I've had the host put some prize morsels in the rice bowl of the guest of honor in China and Vietnam. The idea is not to pile stuff on, but to give the honored person the best piece of something. I enjoy the custom.

[jecho]

Being Chinese, it may be that I'm used to more lax table manners in my family as opposed to ipsedixit and yes Sam, you are right, the host does pick out the best pieces to give to the guest of honor but barring that, heaping portions still bespeak of generosity.

[ipsedixit]

Whatever you do, just don't eat the rice and food from your plate by "vacuuming" it with your mouth by sucking it up directly from the plate.

Ok, if you are about 5 years old. Not ok otherwise.

[alanbarnes]

Saw the most interesting cross-cultural table setting / manners situation last week. At a restaurant in South Kona owned and run by 4th-generation Japanese-Hawaiians, rice and side dishes were served communally, and each place setting had a rice bowl, a fork, and a pair of chopsticks. But the entrees were ordered and served western style (eg, an individual would get a plate of pork chops delivered to the table--with a steak knife).

Watching the different ways that people negotiated the meal was fun. There were probably as many different sets of table manners being used in that dining room as there were diners. (I ultimately combined the traditional American cut-and-switch technique with the rice-bowl-in-the-hand method: hold the chopsticks in the left hand and steak knife in the right, cut a few bites of meat, put the knife down, switch the chopsticks to the right hand, and hold the rice bowl in the left while conveying food from plate to mouth.)

By the way, the pork chops were delicious.

[FoodieGrrl]

No, you've got it right. In addition to the many comments here, I would also not advise crossing your chopsticks on the plate - it's a symbol of death.

Oh, and when I was little and drummed my chopsticks on my plate, that earned me a little whack on the head.

My non-Asian bf noticed the same thing at Chinese restaurants - that not all of the young Asian patrons were shoveling, after I had told him shoveling was ok, and was a little nervous about the whole shoveling thing, but I pointed out to him that there was a distinct age differential between shovelers and non-shovelers.

Finally, if you're eating anything with shells, I wouldn't advise putting them back on the serving plate, as my one of my ex-husband's groomsmen did at our wedding banquet. *wince* I thought my mother was going to explode.

[Blueicus]

About that last situation... oh man is that a big no no.

[FoodieGrrl]

Yup. In addition to it being an instinctively bad thing to do (Hell-o! People were still taking lobster OFF the plate for heaven's sake!), it wouldn't be acceptable in Western cultures either. But what was really perplexing is that during a big Chinese banquet, the plates are changed out every couple of courses, so it wasn't as if he had to wait very long for a clean plate. Seeing as we had 15 courses, and the lobster was course 7 or 8, it's not like he didn't know he'd get a clean plate.

Oh well. My ex has custody of his friends, so I think I'm much better off. :-D

[PeterL]

Used to be in dim sum places that put the chopsticks cross-wise to indicate that the table is finished and a bill is being prepared, to keep servers from putting more dishes on the table.

That custom went out with the check off bill system.

[Das Ubergeek]

Yup. Now you hold up your ticket and flail it about until one of the designated waiters deigns to notice you.

[PeterL]

I don't flail. So I just try to catch the eyes of one of those roving tux wearing captains/waiters, with a subtle movement of my hand in a writing gesture, they'll catch my meanings.

[OCAnn]

Put me in the flail camp; sometimes my lazy eye isn't able to catch their glance.

[Cinnamon]

But that is the way you skywrite in an annual ritual bidding good wishes for ancestors, is it not?

[purple goddess]

I lift and shovel, and I'm a middle aged pasty white woman!

[Das Ubergeek]

Not at all -- that's exactly how most people do it. Unless you're at a formal dinner, honestly, however you get the food into your mouth without dropping it all over the place is fine, as long as you're not offending someone else. Be considerate and have common sense (don't chew with your mouth open, don't talk while actively eating, don't reach past people to grab condiments, don't take all the best bits for yourself, don't stick things that have been in your mouth into places other people need to get to, etc.)

Every time I hear about "Asians eat so gracefully" I want to grab the speaker and take him or her to a pho shop at noon, to watch hordes of Vietnamese businesspeople in power suits just SHOVELING pho into their mouths while hunched over a counter.

[Sam Fujisaka]

I love the Philippines and my filipino friends. But there it is accepted to eat simultaneously with both fork and spoon with face hunched centimeters from the plate. My ethnocentrism doesn't allow me to eat in the same way.

[tarteaucitron]

So, do they have the fork and spoon one in each hand? Just curious.

[Sam Fujisaka]

Exactly.

[ChowFun_derek]

Here in SF, I notice Chinese people often if served rice on a regular plate..eat with a fork, but if they have a rice bowl they eat with chopsticks...logical..as it is way more difficult to navigate rice from a flat plate with chopsticks! Easy for a fork though....and with a rice bowl easy "to shovel" in rice with chopsticks...they seem to use the proper implement for the situation!

[Sam Fujisaka]

That's really getting away from (non-filipino) Asian practices in which the fork is only used to shove things onto the spoon. I use the spoon (right hand and fork in left hand) for plated rice in Asian settings.

[Blueicus]

I've always been confused at how my non-Chinese friends would use chopsticks to pick up pieces of loose long grain rice (we're talking Chinese restaurant and not Japanese) off a plate instead of using a fork/chopsticks and spoon. But to each their own.

[2m8ohed]

That's how I do it. Even though I've been using the chopsticks since childhood, it's a hassle to pick rice off a plate with chopsticks, especially after it's gotten loosened up with a bit of sauce from the other food. So I will use the fork to handle rice if there's no bowl. But I usually ask for a rice bowl if one isn't provided, so I can use the chopsticks more easily.

Another etiquette point - it's not cool to harpoon food with your chopsticks, though it's sometimes tempting with the more slippery items.

[Sam Fujisaka]

Again, Asians don't use the fork for raising the food to mouth--use the (table) spoon.

[Das Ubergeek]

I've seen plenty of Chinese using forks to eat off their rice plates if not using bowls, and Japanese ditto. MOST Asians don't -- Thais don't, Vietnamese don't eat com tam with the fork, Filipinos don't -- but it's not universal. And, of course, 90% of the time at a Korean place you get steel chopsticks (@$#%ing IMPOSSIBLE) and a spoon.

[Sam Fujisaka]

Dasubersturmbannfuhrergeek, I think it may be a recent affectation to use the fork to lift food.

[Das Ubergeek]

Could be... a lot like pretentious Cal-Fusion places serving things like seared fish with chopsticks.

[alanbarnes]

Sam, I'd say it's more a westernization than an affectation. In my experience, Americanized Asian table settings provide a single utensil--the fork--which acts as a stand-in for a pair of chopsticks, which is often the single utensil included in the place setting for a more traditional Chinese, Japanese, or Vietnamese meal.

As for Korean place settings, the main reason the spoon is included is **because** the steel chopsticks are so impossible to use for anything other than pushing food around (and into the spoon). And apparently the "pick up and shovel" method is considered bad form (at least when the bowl is made of metal).

IMHO, the goal is to get the food down the pipe without offending anybody. Using good table manners is a sign of respect to those around you, but the intersection of cultures sometimes makes it hard to figure out what good table manners are in a particular situation. Putting rice on a plate and eating it with a fork is probably a symptom of a new set of manners, not an affectation.

[Sam Fujisaka]

Again, I'm commenting on the use of the fork instead of the spoon (not instead of chopsticks) for plated food. Many Asians (except Japan) use a fork and spoon with the spoon being used to raise food to mouth.

In Colombia it is common in rural areas for people to eat in the same manner for some foods--i.e., fork and spoon unless eating a slab of meat in which fork and knife are called for. Urban sophisticates look down on such spoon use.

[2m8ohed]

In the U.S., I've found that it's much more common to be given a fork and chopsticks than a spoon and chopsticks in Chinese or Japanese restaurants. In Korean restaurants, you'll get a spoon. So as alanbarnes said, it's probably more of a Westernization than an affectation - as for myself (and yes, I'm Asian), it's more laziness than snobbery that leads me to use the fork if it is there. Heck, if I'm going to the trouble of asking the waiter for a spoon, I might as well just ask for a rice bowl so I can use chopsticks more handily. IMHO, what *is* an affectation is insisting on chopsticks in a misguided effort to be more "authentic" when they are not provided in a Thai restaurant - my understanding is that Thais sometimes use chopsticks for things like noodle soup, but that the fork and spoon are preferred for most foods eaten off a plate.

[moh]

"As for Korean place settings, the main reason the spoon is included is **because** the steel chopsticks are so impossible to use for anything other than pushing food around (and into the spoon). And apparently the "pick up and shovel" method is considered bad form (at least when the bowl is made of metal)."

Ummm, I hope you were joking a bit when you printed this, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I will concede that the metal chopsticks can be a bit of a bear to use, but the stickiness of the rice and the other ingredients make the food a bit easier to handle. The spoon is there because it is traditional to serve soup with the meal, not to just help those who can't handle the chopsticks.

If it helps any, my non-Korean Caucasian husband actually quite likes the KOrean chopsticks, he finds them to be "precise". So it is possible to get used to them.

[Caroline1]

Not particularly to you, moh, or to Sam. or anyone else, but I'm curiuos why people don''t solve the problem by just carrying their own chopsticks? Chopsticks in a carrying box are certainly widely available.

[alanbarnes]

Yes, that was written with tongue in cheek. OTOH the Koreans I know don't limit the use of their spoons to eating soup, they also use them (in conjunction with the chopsticks) to pick up other food. Is that not universal?

[moh]

Phew! I figured. Yes, you are completely correct, Koreans will use the spoons for things other than soup. I like the shape and form of the spoons, big but still comfortable in the mouth, flat enough to pick up sauces, it's a nice design.

[ChowFun_derek]

A great design..such nice long handles and they hold so much!

[soypower]

as a korean, i only use the spoon for rice and soups. in fact, i'd say that most koreans eat rice w/ the spoon and pick everything else up with chopsticks (except soup, of course). it's a rare occasion when i've seen a korean eat rice w/ chopsticks unless they're wrapping the bite of rice w/ some kind of leafy grean (i.e., kimchi, seasoned perilla leaves, etc.).

also, i think the thinner, metal chopsticks are much easier for precision than the larger chinese style and are much more sanitary than wood...but i could be biased having grown up using them. :o)

[ChowFun_derek]

In my experience when I see for example Chinese laborers having lunch and speaking Chinese together is that they DEFINITELY use a fork when presented with a luncheon meat on rice plate and not a spoon....but I think I will use a spoon from now on! Seems more appropriate...

[justagthing]

OH MY! You will not be able to eat with my family. They always talk while eating and yes sometimes with food in their mouth still. I have seen this not only in my family, but it seems very common when I watch my elders eat. I use to be so embarrassed, but now that I am older, and so are my parents, I am just glad they are alive and healthy and just enjoy their company. Just because they are old school and may seem uncouth to others, doesn't change that they have great heart!

[PeterL]

No, you are correct. Spoon their rice onto their plates? What's this world coming to??!! Are they using forks? Horrors!!!!

[Caroline1]

Gosh, it has to be thirty or forty years ago my dad and I dropped into a southern California sushi bar for lunch and spotted an old Japan born friend. He waved us over and invited us to join him. I noticed he was eating his rice with a fork and everything else with chopsticks. I smiled and commented on his being westernized. "Just pragmatic. Why eat rice with two tines when I can use four?" Droll.

[Sam Fujisaka]

For both Japanese and most Chinese, move rice from bowl to mouth with chopsticks. Reverse chopstiks to serve self from serving dishes. Chinese (and most SE Asians) all over Asia also comfortably eat with plate, fork and (table) spoon--in which case the rice is plated.

[soypower]

this brings to mind another issue...i'm korean and i went to a chinese restaurant with my chinese friend and another korean friend...we got into a similar discussion about using plates to help ourselves to servings of the entrees we all shared...we also had separate bowls and those big chinese spoons for soup.

with korean food, everyone has their own bowl of rice, a pair of chopsticks and a long-handled spoon. everything else is eaten communally, including soup/stew. the few exceptions to this are bibimbap, noodle soup, and broth-based soups. the purpose of the long-handled spoon is so everyone can reach the soup/stew located in the middle of the table.

my korean friend and i asked if chinese people eat communally as well, but she said they always use plates...she's not an ABC, but now i recall watching many a chinese film where the concept was the same, individual bowls of rice and shared meat and veggie dishes...(the method was always the chopstick shoveling method, spoons only used for soup)

koreans also have individual rice bowls but use the spoon to eat rice and soup (leaving all bowls/dishes on the table), and chopsticks for meat and veggies.

my understanding is that japanese have no spoons, soups are sipped directly from the bowl, using chopsticks to fish out anything in the soup...rice is also eaten with chopsticks, but the bowl is left on the table.

[DeppityDawg]

I love Korean food, but I cannot get used to everyone dipping their spoon into the communal soup. This happened to me once at a kind of business dinner, and I thought, "This can't be right – I hardly know these people!" Do Koreans really never use a serving spoon for soup?

[soypower]

i can see how it would seem NKR (not kwite right)...:o) i've only seen a serving spoon (or ladle) w/ a korean meal is when my mom throws dinner parties and puts the soup in a tureen. but the only kind of soups she does this with are bean sprout soup, wonton soup, radish and cabbage soup..however, these types of soup are rarely offered at restaurants, so i don't know how they would be served in a restaurant. anything like spicy fish stew, kimchi stew, and bean paste soup are all eaten communally out of the clay pot which keeps it bubbling hot. of course, when you have a soup that eats like a meal (i.e., rice cake soup, noodle soup) it's served individually in large bowls.

[Miss Needle]

Yeah, that's Korean custom for you. I don't do this outside of immediate family. Some places offer a serving spoon and small bowls.

[KaimukiMan]

most of the korean restaurants here give each diner a small metal bowl for the soup... usually some kind of beanpaste or seaweed based soup.

[justagthing]

Chinese do eat communally. I recall as a child, I use to attend all the wedding banquets with my grandmother. Back in the 70's dishes were served on the lazy susan and everyone would use their own chopsticks to pick up items from the larger trays and put it on other's plates or rice bowls as well as their own. But I am not sure when I began to notice the western utensils on the main platters as they all come with nowadays.

[sleepycat]

I've noticed use of communal chopsticks... that is an extra of chopsticks that stays with the dish. If you're picking up food off the lazy susan then use the communal chopsticks instead of your own.

[ChowFun_derek]

I have been taught that when taking a portion from the communal plate.... to flip my chopsticks and use the side that has not been anywhere near my mouth...I still follow this practice when I eat communally.

[egit]

I was taught this by a former colleague who was born in HK. It was at a work lunch, but it wasn't formal at all. (Bunch of tech-nerds at a nice chinese lunch). I never knew if this was an Americanized adaptation of chinese etiquette, or a long-standing tradition. I'd never seen it before, and I eat out a lot. Though I can't say that I've ever really paid much attention to what other tables are doing.

[Blueicus]

My family used to do that occasionally, but we mostly use communal chopsticks when eating with company. I simply don't see the value in the flipping chopsticks technique, it makes the other part of the chopsticks dirty, thus making your hand dirty and it feels like you're putting your hand in the food, which is just as bad, IMO.

[DeppityDawg]

I don't know about "just as bad"… I would rather eat out of someone's hand than out of their mouth. But neither of these is an option at my dinner table: we use serving spoons.

[soypower]

actually, i think i would prefer to eat out of someone's mouth which is probably a more sterile environment than what's lurking on most people's hands...sorry, but i remember hearing a study about how many don't wash their hands after using the bathroom. yech.

also, the method of eating with chopsticks that i was taught was to pick up the morsel i was eating and drop it in my mouth...no sucking on the chopsticks...

was that too much info?

[justagthing]

That is how I was taught, very old school I believe. But also, when I pick up food from the big platters, I usually don't have to touch all the other parts, just my own morsels.

[Blueicus]

I was taught never to pick at the food on the table, looking for better pieces. If you're going to pick the good piece look for it first without holding up your chopsticks then when you find it go for it.

[moh]

"I was taught never to pick at the food on the table, looking for better pieces."

There is a Korean verb, "fi joh" which we learnt in the context of Kimchi. It was rude to "fi joh" ie. pick through the kimchi bowl with your chopsticks for the best pieces, touching and discarding the ones that didn't meet your exacting standards. My brother and I had many an argument over this habit. He is much better now...

[Sam Fujisaka]

In Vietnam eating with work colleagues it is customary to spot, pick out the best piece (with reversed chopsticks), and ... place that piece on the rice bowl of one of your honored dining companions.

[justagthing]

That holds true with Chinese but not necessarily in a business situation.

[justagthing]

Oh, I hope you weren't thinking that I was looking for the better pieces buy touching the others. I would just pick up pieces closest to me.

[chowser]

I think there's a problem with looking for "good" pieces. You're supposed to take the worst piece that's easily reached and leave the better ones for others. It's been an issue w/ my BIL who always picks the best of everything in each dish. To take some cake home to go, he actually cut out the whole center of it and left the edges. We don't know if he's rude or clueless. Shades of the Joy Luck Club. My in-laws, knowing that I will take the worst pieces, will search out the best pieces and give them to me. Funny how being polite can get you ahead.

[OCAnn]

If that was MY BIL, I'd hide the best parts from him so he'd be stuck w/the worst pieces...or just serve him the worst parts.

Call it just desserts.

[Blueicus]

I have to admit, I'm more of a fan of fairness and everybody getting their fair share when at the dinner table. But yes, it's always good practice to pick a nice piece for your neighbour or a respected elder.

[FrankDrakman]

I'm white, and I married a Chinese girl. I made a few "Joy Luck" errors, which I found about in no uncertain terms afterwards. I'm much better now.

[ChowFun_derek]

We were taught this technique by Chinese Chowhounders when we have Chowdowns at a Chinese restaurant....I always wiped the other end of the chopsticks before I flipped them back...

[chowser]

This is what we do, especially when serving others and there are no serving utensils.

[Cheese Boy]

When I eat Chinese, especially in Flushing, or in NYC's Chinatown, I expect to see Chinese diners lifting rice bowls up to their mouths. If I don't, I question whether I'm eating in the right place. Every culture has its etiquette, and even loyalists sometimes stray. Those upscale ABC's you described probably practice different etiquette at home, so setting (and company) is definitely a factor. I don't think you were being less mannerly at all. I think you were very comfortable in your surroundings, and you ate accordingly.
I love relaxed places like that.

As an aside, only in a thread and forum like this can I laugh at terms being used such as 'hoovering' and 'shoveling' to describe how someone eats.

[Miss Needle]

You're fine eating that way in that setting.

ABCs generally don't follow the table manners of old-school Chinese. They've grown up here and are Westernized.

[justagthing]

Third generation ABC here and I am old school!

[Miss Needle]

You're talking to 1st generation (or 1.5 -- however you look at it) Korean who can't even use her chopsticks properly.

[justagthing]

LOL! Most people are surprised that I am 3rd gen. I guess I am an 'old' soul in that regards.

[PeterL]

shame shame. I know an African American guy who's married to a Korean American. Not only can he use chopsticks with both hands, but he can do it at the same time.

[Miss Needle]

Yeah, we (my sister and I) were never raised using chopsticks. I'm past the criss-cross stage, but am not totally dexterous with them. When my ex (who wasn't Asian) and I ate at Asian restaurants, they would always give him the fork, and he was 10 times better at chopsticks than I was.

[hsk]

LOL when I was a kid we had little skinny silver ones. It was either learn to use them or starve. Needless to say, I'm like the ambidextrous african american.

[DeppityDawg]

When eating at home, picking up the bowl is fine. Often, there isn't a plate to spoon your rice onto anyway. But in a restaurant, depending on the situation, people might change their behavior. You're in a Chinese restaurant, but you're still in NYC. Your fellow diners are Chinese, but they are also (young, up-scale) Americans.

I don't think anyone probably noticed what you were doing. I wish I could find a $5 lunch.

[Erika L]

Chinese eat rice by bringing the bowl to their mouths and using the chopsticks to "shovel" in the rice. As for little morsels (meat, veggies) on the rice, you can either include them with a shovelful or you can use chopsticks to put them directly in your mouth, all by themselves.

Japanese eat rice by using the chopsticks to pick up a little clump and then ferry it to the mouth.

Chinese and Japanese chopsticks and rices bear out these diffs. Chinese chopsticks have a larger circumference and meet at the tips, and the rice is long-grained and fairly dry. Japanese chopsticks have pointed ends that don't meet, and Japanese rice is short-grained and "rounder" and stickier.

I can't tell you about the rice-eating etiquette or styles of other Asian cultures, but I'm Chinese and can assure you that hoovering is considered proper in our culture.

As for how to use holders--sorry, can't help you there. I just lay chopsticks on the bowl. To my knowledge, the placement and angle don't matter--diagonally, like a knife on a dinner plate, or straight across the equator are both OK. The key is to have enough of the grip ends hanging over so that you can easily grab them.

[justagthing]

Not at all, that is how you eat rice. Sounds like they were eating more Anglo style and you were eating good ol' fashioned Chinese style.

[JoanN]

And while you're at it, what *is* the proper way to place your chopsticks on the holder? Not sure I knew there was one until I read this this morning.

http://www.chowhound.com/topics/489815

[SomeRandomIdiot]

Only thing you really shouldn't do with chopsticks, unless you're trying to insult someone, is place them upright in the rice.

[enbell]

I've not done this nor seen this, and I'm assuming all know the reason but me, but why? Is it just a generally insulting gesture (Ameican middle finger?) or does it mean something different?

[Miss Needle]

I believe it symbolizes death as it looks like incense sticks when one performs the ancestor rituals.

[SomeRandomIdiot]

When you're uhhh "feeding" your ancestors, that's the way the chopsticks are supposed to go into the bowl of rice. You have a bowl overloaded with rice and the chopsticks stuck directly in the center.

I guess you also wouldn't place the chopsticks with the ends facing outward (towards you), as that seems to be the other variation for the ritual that I've seen.

[enbell]

Thank you for the cultural insight!

[PeterL]

That's how people place chopsticks in a rice bowl with they have their annual visit with the departed.