490071 Fri Feb 15 12:57:57 -0800 2008 15 34 Wine 0 3401785 Another interesting little tid-bit from Randall Grahm and Bonny Doon - on new labels from Bonny Doon, they are listing the wine's ingredients, and ingredients used in the production of the wine which basically no longer remain present in the finished product. The label for the new Ca' del Solo Albarino release reads: INGREDIENTS: Biodynamic grapes; sulfur dioxide IN THE WINEMAKING PROCESS THE FOLLOWING WERE UTILIZED: Indigenous yeast, organic yeast hulls, bentonite. As Grahm puts it, this is "primarily intended as an internal discipline" to focus on non-interventionist techniques. Fri Feb 15 12:57:57 -0800 2008 35525 Frodnesor 1 3402057 So are you a fan of him or his wines? He is definitely an interesting character and I had Le Cigare Volant once with a fantastic meal, though I found out since that day that he has quite a few detractors ("you can do far better for the price"). Fri Feb 15 14:09:06 -0800 2008 3401785 124704 Icantread 2 3402437 I am a huge fan of Randall Grahm, not so much of his wines lately. I think he's a witty writer and intriguing wine philosopher, who spends much time exploring the nature of his craft. As for the wines, years ago the Cigare Volant used to be a pretty good wine. Quality has definitely slid and it's very pricey for what it is comparable to - a garden variety Cotes du Rhone. Over the past several years he started producing a lot more large-production stuff (i.e. the "Big House Red") and it seems the quality of everything went down. He has now divested himself of all the large-volume productions and is refocusing BD exclusively on the smaller-production stuff and I have hope that we'll see better wines as a result. Some of the wines I've gotten more recently from them (past year) have already seemed to show some improvement from past bottlings. I am a member of the Bonny Doon "Distinctive & Esoteric Wine Network" which is a wine club which sends out very small-production, generally unusual bottlings that he's produced (some of which are "DEWN"-only releases). These are not always great, but almost always interesting. Mailings have included various alternative blends of the Cigare Volant, bottlings of "oddball" grapes (at least w/i the US) like pigato, mourvedre and aglianico, occasionally something brought over from Europe, and other experiments like a pinot noir "transfusion" blended with about 10% pinot gris. Fri Feb 15 15:51:54 -0800 2008 3402057 35525 Frodnesor 3 3405507 I tasting the 2005 a couple of months ago, and I think Le Cigare Volant is delightful. Raspberry, pomegranate fruit, hints of orange, with a nice earth and umami anchoring. Actually, it was with Randall -- he had the CV bottled two different ways: one bottle sealed with a cork, one with a Stelvin. The Stelvin tasted fruitier initially, without as much earth "anchoring," which it then developed with air and time. The cork-closed bottle had the earth and umami anchoring and less bright fruit initially. Once it had air and bit of time, it had similar fruitiness to the Stelvin but ultimately not quite as much. A curious, interesting test. Who woulda thunk it? I'd give the CV a new go, if you're interested. Sat Feb 16 21:00:12 -0800 2008 3402437 18222 maria lorraine 4 3405533 I will be getting some Cigare Volant at some point in the year in one of the DEWN shipments (just recently got an Albarino from the Ca' del Solo vineyard and a Nebbiolo from Stolpman). Everything I've recently received from BD has been under stelvin (unless one of his imported projects) - the difference you describe is interesting. Sat Feb 16 21:17:29 -0800 2008 3405507 35525 Frodnesor 4 3406034 The improvement in quality to the Le Cigare Volant is precisely why Randall sold off the "mass market" wines -- to focus on fewer wines and, hopefully, make them better. This doesn't mean Randall is no longer Randall -- he's still be making a number of different wines for DEWN, etc. -- but there is no doubting the fact that both his quality and passion had slipped significantly over the years. As far as the cork v. Stelvin comparison, I would urge anyone who can to acquire several bottles BOTH versions and try them side-by-side . . . now, in 2011, and in 2016. The comparisons will be worthwhile. Cheers, Jason Sun Feb 17 07:21:39 -0800 2008 3405507 28122 zin1953 4 3406920 maria lorraine, this should be a separate topic (which I just may start) but I would presume that your cork vs stelvin experience with Le Cigare Volant would put you in the camp of those who feel there is enough oxygen exchange through a natural cork to affect the wine even in just the time in-bottle until release. I'd be interested in your or Randall's opinion on why there was such a difference. Breathability of cork; negative impact of stelvin; or?????????? I've been trying to follow the debate on this and it's like watching a tennis match. There's no substitute for a direct test (such as yours above) but there is still a significant opinion out there that cork is of little or no value to changes in the wine (oxygen exchange being minimal if at all). Like many other issues in wine it may be one that is very much dependent on the experience and palate sensitivity of the taster but the debate seems to go on and on. Sun Feb 17 13:05:55 -0800 2008 3405507 11405 Midlife 5 3407022 The cork vs. non-cork closure debate is far from over, as you say. Here are some of the discusssions: 1. Breatheability of cork, allowing a certain amount of oxygen aging in the wine, some contributory, some not. 2. Problems with cork taint, TCA contamination at the cork manufacturer. 3. Problems with cellar-taint: TCA and TBA contamination from the cellar of the winery, caused by winery-created compounds that enter the wine through the breatheable cork. Stelvins do not allow TCA/TBA entry through a closed bottle, but the wine may become tainted before bottling. 4.Reduction problems with Stelvins: the Stelvins don't allow enough oxygen in so reductive flavors caused by a lack of oxygen (cooked cabbage, onion, asparagus, garlic, burnt rubber, etc.) can form in the wine. Now there are experiments to increase the breatheability of the plastic liner in the Stelvin closure to allow some oxygen entry. 5. Detrimental reduction flavors (mentioned above) vs. contributory reduction: passionfruit, red grapefruit, black currant, Riesling flavors. Not all reduction is bad. The question being asked: Can you get the good flavors without the bad ones? 6.Winemaking adjustments during fermentation, when reduction usually happens, to reduce the incidence of Stelvin-induced reduction later. The theory is...take care of any potential reduction early on and perhaps it won't develop later. 6. Sheer cost: Stelvins are much cheaper than cork. 7. Variability of cork quallity, depending on company and harvest. The best cork producers have little problem with TCA taint, but this doesn't preclude TCA/TBA contamination at the winery. 8. The aethestics of the cork -- more Old World, more Romantic (capital "R", emphasis on nature and form), an experience with more resonance than a twist-off Stelvin. 9. The continued perception that a Stelvin-closed wine is of lesser quality than a cork-closed one, when that is no longer accurate. 10. Environmental impact of both, basically: cork is a renewable resource; a Stelvin closure, once used, is waste. And so on... M. Sun Feb 17 13:39:11 -0800 2008 3406920 18222 maria lorraine 6 3407571 But did you and/or Randall conclude that the differences in the Le Cigar Volante somehow determined that one is 'superior' as a closure? The major issues seem to be cork taint vs. stelvin-induced reduction (as I read the material) but logically I infer that whereas cork taint is a 6-8% issue (if you agree with the generally quoted stat) the effects of stelvin could be much more pervasive. So, one would need to believe that the effects of reduction have a less negative impact on wine than does cork taint. Am I on anything like a path of logic that someone like Randall would employ in this? Sun Feb 17 16:56:04 -0800 2008 3407022 11405 Midlife 7 3407967 Stelvin has long been the closure preferred by Grahm. My sense is a wine is more fruit forward with a Stelvin. But the cork-closed CV we tasted gained in fruit flavors with time -- it bloomed. Who knows if it would have arrived at the fruit level of the Stelvin-closed wine had we had more time to let the wine air. The Stelvin wine never had the depth of the cork-closed wine. The off-flavors from reduction from Stelvin closures haven't been fully quantified, or tasted over time, as Jason (zin1953) suggests above. Stelvin-closed wines haven't been around long enough for these wines to be aged awhile, and then those wines opened and tasted. Reduction is known to be a very common problem with non-breatheable closures. IRT cork taint vs. reduction errors: one is a flaw and the wine must be discarded; the other is a matter of degree and the type of reduction flavors created and their palatability. I can't answer the question of which is a bigger problem: the percentage of cork-tainted wines vs. off-flavors in wine caused by Stelvins. I don't think there is quantifiable data yet, or if there is, I don't know about it. Sun Feb 17 19:25:36 -0800 2008 3407571 18222 maria lorraine 6 3407669 i know very little about the technical issues, but looking up the alcoa site for stelvin, it states that there is some permeability that allows breathing? i wonder if tests have been done with gases to compare cork's and stelvin's permeability head to head? also, wouldn't stelvin closure be recyclable (theoretically)? Sun Feb 17 17:34:40 -0800 2008 3407022 105717 alkapal 7 3408035 Various degrees of permeability in the plastic lining of the Stelvin are being tested. Too little permeability may not prevent reduction. Too much, and there's the possibility of the wine oxidzing and leakage. Tests are being done to, as you say, "to compare cork's and stelvin's permeability head to head" by both cork companies (Amorim in particular) and Stelvin manufacturers (Alcoa as you mention is one). Each closure company wants to have proof their product is superior. A lot of money is at stake. The impact of a Stelvin closure on wine, both short-term and long-term, needs to be measured. That will take months, years. The jury is still out, and will be out awhile. Re: recyclability Grahm himself is chagrined about the lack of recyclability of the Stelvin. My limited understanding is that the Stelvin's combo of plastic fused to the metal makes it not recyclable. Sun Feb 17 19:49:29 -0800 2008 3407669 18222 maria lorraine 8 3408132 thanks maria lorraine, always enjoy your posts. Sun Feb 17 20:34:16 -0800 2008 3408035 105717 alkapal 2 3403065 I hope you don't mind if I toss in my own 2¢ . . . I've known Randall since 1974, when we both worked at the same retail store in Southern California. He is who he is, and that hasn't changed over the years. The quality of the wines, on the other hand, is a different matter. They HAVE declined over the years. This is but one reason that Randall sold off a considerable number of his wines -- to focus on his passion, and (hopefully) improve the quality of the wines which remain in his portfolio. Fri Feb 15 20:27:30 -0800 2008 3402057 28122 zin1953 1 3403032 Do you remember the ORIGINAL "ingredient labeling" proposal by the ATF, the pre-9/11 "rulers of the universe" when it came to all things wine-related? Originally, the proposal read: 1st Govt. Proposal) Ingredients: Grapes, water, sugar, yeast, and sulfur dioxide as a preservative. The Wine Institute, the California wine industry's trade organization, pointed out that is was against the ATF's own regulations to add sugar to wines produced from Vitis vinifera grapes. 2nd Govt. Proposal) Ingredients: Grapes, water, -----, yeast, and sulfur dioxide as a preservative. Next, the Wine Institute pointed out that it is illegal to add water to wine. 3rd Govt. Proposal) Ingredients: Grapes, -----, -----, yeast, and sulfur dioxide as a preservative. Then, they pointed out that while -- yes, it's true -- yeast IS used to ferment the natural grape sugars present into alcohol, there is actually no yeast present in the wine. Since there are many people who will buy Brewer's Yeast, for example, and drink it for its supposed health benefits, to claim there was yeast in the wine would be misleading, and potentially illegal. 4th Govt. Proposal) Ingredients: Grapes, -----, -----, -----, and sulfur dioxide as a preservative. It was at this point that the Environmental Protection Agency weighed in on the proposal to say that if there was truly enough sulfur dioxide in the wine to be a preservative, EPA would have to declare it toxic to human health, have the wine impounded and destroyed. 5th Govt. Proposal) Ingredients: Grapes, -----, -----, -----, --- ------ ------- -- - ------------. NEXT? Fri Feb 15 20:10:13 -0800 2008 3401785 28122 zin1953 2 3404717 Hahaha. That's a great story. It's so ridiculous that it has to be true. Sat Feb 16 14:40:05 -0800 2008 3403032 97069 mengathon