488574 Mon Feb 11 11:33:58 -0800 2008 38 34 Wine 0 3386137 I am new to this particular board - I am regular hound from the LA restaurant board - so if I am asking a question that has already been answered, I apologize, but... Can anyone recommend good sulfite free wines. Any color will do. I would particularly like to hear from anyone with a sulfite sensitivity. Thanks! Mon Feb 11 11:33:58 -0800 2008 154193 EliAnnKat 1 3386167 Sulfite free wines tend to be very unstable. A restaurant I worked at had a few of them, there was a lot of bottle variation and many bad bottles. I don't remember the wineries. Mon Feb 11 11:41:29 -0800 2008 3386137 119888 Somnifor 1 3386662 Hi EliAnnKat. Hope this helps: There's a few things to keep in mind- all wines will contain some degree of sulfites. They occur naturally during a wine's fermentation. As Somnifor said, they help to stabilize the wine and those without additional sulfites can turn easily. I've not had good luck with the few that I have tried. If you don't know if you have a sensitivity to sulfites specifically, than you may find that there are wines you do not react to. Though sulfites are first to be blamed for headaches, they are not always the cause. The chance of having a sulfite allergy is something like 1 in 100,000. Wine is an incredibly complex drink with hundreds of different chemical compounds, any one of which can cause a reaction. Some people find themselves sensitive to tannin, varietals, wineries, yeasts, etc. Not to mention that eggs or dried fruit will contain a much higher degree of sulfites than a glass of wine. If you do have a sulfite allergy, make sure you get a bottle labeled sulfite free- as "organic" or made with "organic fruit" are not the same thing. If it helps: white wine will have more sulfites than red. Wines closed with stelvin closures typically require less sulfites than those in natural cork. Mon Feb 11 13:23:44 -0800 2008 3386137 70760 pierrot 1 3386772 Sulfites in wine have been given a bad rap, and unfairly blamed for a reaction to wine. Multiple double-blind medical studies (all listed on the National Library of Medicine website) determined that sulfites only cause problems to those humans who suffer from sulfite oxidase deficiency, occuring in about 1% of the population in the US, or those who suffer from asthma (5% of the US population), and only when their exposure to sulfites is great -- 300 ppm, much more than would be found in wine. A sulfite sensitivity or allergy is quite a rare thing. Of course, the number of drinkers inaccurately claiming sulfite "allergies" by far outnumbers the people actually lacking the sulfite enzyme or having asthma. The easy litmus test is this: If you can eat dried fruits, packaged fruit juices or lunchmeat without a reaction, then it's not sulfites in wine that are causing the reaction. All those foods contain far more sulfites than wine. And bear in mind that a glass of wine contains 10 mg of sulfites and the human body itself produces about 1000 mg/day, so 100 times more than in a single glass of wine. Read more about this from the UC-Davis wine school: http://waterhouse.ucdavis.edu/winecomp/so2.htm You may be interested to learn that sulfites are not always added to wine to stabilize it, but that sulfites are a by-product of a yeast fermentation, so they occur naturally. Your "sulfite" reaction may be caused by something else. Read more here: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/465184 http://www.chowhound.com/topics/448169 http://www.chowhound.com/topics/455977 http://www.chowhound.com/topics/456416 Good luck to you. Mon Feb 11 13:43:39 -0800 2008 3386137 18222 maria lorraine 2 3387082 Thanks for the info, everyone! Mon Feb 11 14:41:24 -0800 2008 3386772 154193 EliAnnKat 1 3403976 I've been talking with an owner of a totally organic vineyard who is adament that if any wine claims to be sulfite free it is only because of the measurement system they are using. As others have said, the sulfite message on wines are leading many people to blame them for problems unconnected with sulfites. If you are alergic to sulfites then you will know about it and be avoiding a whole range of foodstuffs and juices. Also, have you looked at the ingredients on a bottle of mineral water?? Sat Feb 16 09:09:50 -0800 2008 3386137 114099 Gussie Finknottle 2 3404147 The maximum allowable level of sulfites is 300 parts per million (ppm). The threshold level at which the "Contains Sulfites" statement must appear on the label is 10ppm. I once wrote an article about sulfites in wine. (Well, actually, i've written about it several times, but . . . ) In so doing, I interviewed the head of the ATF (now TTTB) lab which tested sulfite levels in wine. In the course of our discussion, I asked him about the labeling requirement, (so called) "organic wines," and the level of sulfites in wine. In particular I asked him about the wines that claimed they were "sulfite-free" -- i.e.: below 10ppm and thus exempt from the requirement of printing "Contains sulfites" or "Contains sulfiting agents" on the label. He replied, "We take their word for it." Rather surprised, I repeated the question. He repeated the answer. I asked if he ever verified the claims with/through random testing. (The ATF would buy bottles at retail, as well as take them directly from wineries, and test them in their labs.) He said, "We've never tested a sample that was below 30 [ppm]." OK, I thought, but 30 is OVER the reporting limit of 10, which I said to him. He replied, "We've never tested a sample that was below 30." Yes, but what about the wineries that claim to be below 10? He replied, "You're not listening. We've NEVER tested any sample that was below 30." * * * * So much for "sulfite-free." Cheers, Jason Sat Feb 16 10:22:03 -0800 2008 3403976 28122 zin1953 3 3404322 One specific Sonoma winery owner, whose wines do not have the "contains sulfites" labeling but also do not say they are sulfite-free, has told me that he has lab tests that show he is below 10ppm. I think I may have mentioned this here in the past. His reasoning for not calling his wines Sulfite Free is that most such wines are just not very good and he wants his wines to be tasted and enjoyed as wines that happen to be made by someone who is a totally 100% organic farmer and winemaker. He doesn't do it to sell wine to people seeking to avoid sulfites, but because he believes in the methodology. He and his brother are also organic farmers of fruits and vegetables. Sat Feb 16 11:33:56 -0800 2008 3404147 11405 Midlife 4 3404362 Well, I've never found a wine that was "sulfite-free," as sulfites are a naturally occurring by-product of fermentation. I have seen wines labeled "No Sulfites Added," which can indeed be true, but that won't mean the wine is sulfite-free. As for being <10ppm, it's definitely possible. My point is only that -- at that time -- the ATF lab had never tested a sample that low; they just accepted the winery's claim. Cheers, Jason Sat Feb 16 11:53:32 -0800 2008 3404322 28122 zin1953 5 3404913 Understood. I had the impression that this winery has their wines tested independently because one of his issues was the cost of doing it on a regular basis to be able to NOT use the 'contains sulfites' label. Sat Feb 16 16:11:52 -0800 2008 3404362 11405 Midlife 1 3404255 You've gotten a good run down on sulfites here. But if you still want to go down this road... If you can find a local shop that carries a good selection of Organic and Bio-Dynamic wines from France you should be able to find some bottles with no to low additions. There are a number of vignerons in the 'natural wine' camp who are experimenting with reducing or eliminating sulfite additions. I believe Marcel Lapierre has no sulfites added in the Morgon bottling that KL brings in to the US. I also recently had a nice Poulsard from Tissot in the Jura that the merchant told me had no sulfites added though internet searches seem to only indicate that he is a minimalist on the issue. And if you have deep pockets, a tasting of Allemand's "Sans Soufre" Cornas against a regular bottling would be a tasty way to explore this. Sat Feb 16 11:01:51 -0800 2008 3386137 18626 Nathan P 2 3404351 marie lorainne and zin1953 have given very accurate info on sulfites in wine. some of the other posts are a bit misleading. there is difference between sulfites and sulphur. sulfites occur naturally in all wine at extremely low concentration as mentioned above. IMO the terms "no sulfites added" or "sans soufre" are misleading. they simply mean that no sulphur is used. even if there is no sulphur used the wine will still contain sulfites. (EU labeling laws are different so you may find some wines there that do not contain the sulfite warning because the threshold for labeling is higher than in the US) sulphur is used in the vineyards to help control molds and in the winery to stabilize and protect the wine. noticeable levels of sulphur are frequently found in delicate young white wines, especially german riesling. the rotten egg odor can be most off-putting but will usually dissapate with bottle age or blow off with air. sulphur as opposed to sulfites can also cause headaches if the concentration is high. many producers today are reducing or eliminating their sulphur usage but more for the improvement of the wine than for lowering sulfite levels. Sat Feb 16 11:49:04 -0800 2008 3404255 113095 jock 1 3404573 Look for natural wines. Find a Louis/Dressner distributor and see who carries them. One is Dard et Ribo, although they are getting squirted with just a little bit of SO2 now, according to Joe Dressner. http://enemyvessel.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8357&FORUM_ID=28&CAT_ID=1&Topic_Title=%2797+Thierry+Allemand+Cornas+sans+souffre&Forum_Title=The+New+Exciting+Place+for+Wine+Discussions Scroll down to find his comment. Gorrodona is a Basque wine that is mostly natural. I think sulfur is minimal there, too. Sat Feb 16 13:31:17 -0800 2008 3386137 11117 SteveTimko 1 3452152 My favorite topic and my favorite answer is: There is no such thing as a sulfite free wine. And those who get all upset about sulfites in wine sure can chew down on onions, garlic, eggs and not think a thing about sulfur in their food. The human body produces more than 1,000 grams a day - - far more than what any bottle of wine has. And the klinker is this. All of these people get so upset about sulfite in wines when the percentage of people in the US who have died because of sulfites in wine is less than 1% and yet, while they are on their soap box ranting about the evil sulfites, they forget one thing - - alcohol in the wine has killed more people than what any little ppm (parts per million) of sulfite ever will. (I apologize if I repeated anything that was already above. It's just that I see red when I read anything about "evil sulfites in wine." boo-hiss) Sun Mar 02 11:41:59 -0800 2008 3386137 91889 Walla2WineWoman 2 3452372 Red? Not white? ;^) Sun Mar 02 13:04:09 -0800 2008 3452152 28122 zin1953 2 3452376 What you've said may be quite true, but there ARE people who have rather severe allergic reactions to wine. While there is lots of debate on the subject at least one poster here has pointed to medical documentation of a specific relationship between sulfites and allergic reaction in people who suffer from certain types of asthma. For them this is not a campaign to eliminate wine or the sulfites in it, but a desire to be informed enough to avoid discomfort. No one above is "ranting about evil sulfites", just looking for wines that have low enough sulfite levels to allow them to enjoy the wine without medical concern. Why the US government requires labeling of sulfites as a danger is another story. Just for the record, there ARE a few wines produced that have measured sulfites below 10ppm (because the natural sulfites dissipate and the winery does not add more). They're not totally free of sulfites, but are as close one can get. Sun Mar 02 13:05:50 -0800 2008 3452152 11405 Midlife 3 3452396 >>> Why the US government requires labeling of sulfites as a danger is another story. <<< Do you know the story? I thought I'd posted it, but a brief search revealed nothing. Oh well . . . Sun Mar 02 13:11:41 -0800 2008 3452376 28122 zin1953 3 3452568 So...what's the story? Sulfites have been scaring people who don't have a clue about them. It's often amusing when someone refuses to drink red wines because of "all of the sulfites in them" and yet drink up the whites. Huh? White wines have more sulfites than red wines. The FDA says that wineries cannot have more than 350 ppm (including natural and added) and the average is about 125 ppm, yet FDA says that foods can have up to 6,000 ppm. So while people refuse to drink wines with sulfites in them, they will wolf down dried mac/cheese mixes, dried gravy mixes, potato chips, pudding mixes, instant box potatoes, and any fermented product like soysauce and vinegars which contain sulfites from the natural fermentation. And look at everything vinegar goes into. They would choke on their soy protiens if they only knew how much sulfites are in dried fruits, trail mixes and...tofu! Basically those that run a true risk to sulfites are asthmatic, steroid-dependent, or lack the enzyme sulfite oxidase. Again, I always roll my eyes when the sulfite subject gets going - - And yes, I know - - there ARE a few wines produced that have measured sulfites below 10ppm but the point is - - there is still the natural sulfites in the wine (and I know all about adding sulfites to wine - - I have a few crush seasons under my belt). If a person is truly allergic and steroid dependent and especially been diagnosed with sulfite oxidase syndrome, then they shouldn't even risk drinking a wine that is below 10 ppm. The sulfites are still there! Basically that alone is going to separate the true 1% who is at risk. And the other 99% run the risk of dying from alcohol. Sun Mar 02 14:13:25 -0800 2008 3452376 91889 Walla2WineWoman 4 3452706 As an allergist, I am quite familiar with sulfite sensitivity. As I see a number of patients with "food allergies" that are often not allergic at all, I know well that the concept of "allergy" is often used incorrectly to describe any intolerance. I often share your frustration, Walla, with those that overdiagnose themselves with food allergies. In the case of sulfite sensitivity, however,we are dealing with a real entity though the mechanism is not fully understood (it is not IgE mediated as the classic food allergies are). Sulfite sensitivity is more commonly seen in moderate/severe asthmatics, as you mention. It is also true though that the vast majority of cases of sensitivity are manifest by exacerbation of underlying asthma. The only thing for sulfite sensitive patients to do is avoid those things that flair their asthma. Unfortunately, there is no other available treatment currently. This is essentially the case for all food allergies. Sun Mar 02 14:58:54 -0800 2008 3452568 61376 Bhutani 4 3453335 The true story . . . . In the early-1980s, someone -- one of those poor individuals who truly DID have severe asthma coupled with an EXTREME chemical sensitivity to sulfites (see Bhutani's excellent post in this thread) -- decided to have lunch at a Sizzler restaurant. For lunch, he chose the salad bar and a glass of White Zinfandel (served from the "tap" -- like beer). The poor man went into anaphylactic shock and died on his way to the hospital. Catie, you are quite correct when you point out that wine is permitted to contain a maximum of 350 parts per million (ppm) of sulfites, while some processed foods can contain up to 6,000 ppm. But one of the main uses for sulfites is in pre-cut vegetables -- salad bars! Sulfites keep the lettuce, celery, apples, etc., etc. from wilting and browning. At the coroner's inquest, it came out that one of the kitchen workers at the restaurant had moved the decimal point to the right instead of to the left when mixing up the sulfur dioxide-and-water solution to spray on the salad bar. (That is, instead of taking, let's say, a calculation of "10.5" and moving the decimal point left to come up with 1.05, he moved it to the right and came up with 105.0.) Thus, the solution that was sprayed on the salad bar that day contained ONE HUNDRED TIMES more sulfur dioxide than it should. It's no wonder this poor individual died! BUT . . . the Coroner's Report also noted that the glass of White Zinfandel also contained some sulfites -- approximately 100-120 ppm, as I recall -- and therefore the coroner could not definitively state that his ingesting the glass of wine was not a contributory factor in the death. The Center for Science in the Public Interest (CSPI) leapt into action and started agitating for a warning label on all wines. The [California] Wine Institute worked with FDA and ATF to create the present warning label, thereby heading off the more draconian wording suggested by CSPI. Thus, warning labels became mandatory in 1987 for all wines containing more than 10 ppm of sulfites, and the American consumer became convinced overnight that --suddenly -- wineries were all ADDING sulfites where none were used before . . . p-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-t Cheers, Jason Sun Mar 02 18:58:25 -0800 2008 3452568 28122 zin1953 5 3453346 But the suggestion here is that sulfites otherwise are harmless. They're not. They can do some nasty things in the lower intestines. That said, I'm glad they're squirting at least a little bit of SO2 into bottles to stop secondary fermentation. Sun Mar 02 19:01:08 -0800 2008 3453335 11117 SteveTimko 6 3453395 Most premium, super-premium, and ultra-premium wines (those over $7) contain approximately 30 ppm of sulfites. It's only wine in large 3.0L and 4.0L glass bottles that will contain the 120-125 ppm that Catie (Walla2WineWoman) mentions. At 30 ppm or less, I know of VERY few people that will suffer any harm from a glass of wine. Even two. Harmless? No. But I am much more concerned about the people with sulfite sensitivities avoiding dried apricots, salad bars, and the like than I am about them having one glass of wine. According to one source at the FDA -- see http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/096_sulf.html for more info 1) The Food and Drug Administration estimates that one out of a hundred people is sulfite-sensitive, and that 5 percent of those who have asthma . . . are also at risk of suffering an adverse reaction to the substance. 2) [I]n 1982, the agency received numerous reports from consumers and the medical community regarding adverse health reactions. In response, FDA contracted with the Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology (FASEB) to examine the link between sulfites and reported health problems that ranged from chest tightness or difficulty breathing to hives to fatal anaphylactic shock. In 1985, FASEB concluded that sulfites are safe for most people, but pose a hazard of unpredictable severity to asthmatics and others who are sensitive to these preservatives. Based on this report, FDA took the following regulatory actions in 1986: a) Prohibited the use of sulfites to maintain color and crispness on fruits and vegetables meant to be eaten raw (for instance, restaurant salad bars or fresh produce in the supermarket); b) Required companies to list on product labels sulfiting agents that occur at concentrations of 10 ppm or higher, and any sulfiting agents that had a technical or functional effect in the food (for instance, as a preservative) regardless of the amount present. (This labeling requirement was extended to standardized foods, such as pickles and bottled lemon juice, in 1993.) Cheers, Jason Sun Mar 02 19:19:19 -0800 2008 3453346 28122 zin1953 7 3453448 My whole point for the nag is that for years I have heard people repeat like parrots about wine in sulfites and about 98% of them don't know what they're talking about - - other than they heard their neighbor's stepmother's bother's friend's aunt's son inlaw's butcher complain about all the sulfites in red wine while noshing down on a bag of potato chips - - in a nutshell most of them want to find fault with something they know nothing about. It seems to give them a free ticket not to try something and make them "special" in their own mind. And as always the worst offender is the person who only drink white wines because of all the sulfites in red (or so they think)... It also amuses me when someone says, "I only drink wine made from organic grapes" as the smugness drools from their lips. What they weren't understanding is that for years some of the wines made with organic grapes still had sulfites in them because the winery was adding them. Big difference between organic wine and wine made with organic grapes. But, all the vineyard owners I know, the majority of them are doing their best not to use fungicides and pesticides on their fruit. They don't want any chemicals on their grapes anymore than anyone else. However, then again -- one of the oldest (late 1800's) fungicides that the early Americans used on vineyards was yup - you got it - - sulfur. In many ways, the sulfites on a wine label is kind of like a witch hunt. The government isn't making many food producers put "contains sulfite" in our foods, but they sure are with wine. And the population for those who are at a deadly risk are at 1% and guess what - - those who are at risk are more than likely already educated about what they should or shoudn't be consuming. Again, putting a sulfite warning on a bottle of alcohol makes no sense. Hellooooo... Sun Mar 02 19:37:30 -0800 2008 3453395 91889 Walla2WineWoman 8 3454041 You get no argument from me, Catie. Mon Mar 03 06:00:07 -0800 2008 3453448 28122 zin1953 8 3458937 --"for years some of the wines made with organic grapes still had sulfites in them because the winery was adding them." Am I misreading your statement? It seems to indicate that wines made from organic grapes usually don't have added sulfites these days. I've found quite the opposite. In two years of searching I have found maybe 6 American wineries that use organic grapes and DON'T add sulfites. Over the same period I've spoken with dozens of 'organic' (organic grapes) winemakers who maintain that they HAVE TO add sulfites or the wine will be unstable, won't last and will just not taste good. In fact the one winery I know that makes really good quality 100% organic wine will not put "contains NO added sulfites" on their labels (even though they don't add any, and have lab tests to prove they're below 10ppm) because they feel the consumer equates the no sulfite label to bad wine. They omit the 'contains sulfites' warning, but that is all they do. Tue Mar 04 10:50:25 -0800 2008 3453448 11405 Midlife 9 3459586 Wines with NO sulfites are often unstable. Indeed, I know of at least vintner that was forced to close/sell his winery because of the costs incurred in replacing all of the "Sulfite-Free Chardonnay" that would go bad in the bottle after six months . . . Tue Mar 04 13:08:33 -0800 2008 3458937 28122 zin1953 9 3459601 No you didn't misread, but many people did when it came to organic wines or what they thought were organic wines. True, some labels read the wine was made from organic grapes but that was it - - the wines still contained sulfites and this was going on before your two years of searching. In the year, 2000 the USDA limited the use of sulfites to 100ppm in "organic" wine. However, most organic wines contain less than 40ppm of sulfites. The point is - - sulfites are still there. Nobody has to add sulfites, but they do because of bacteria and stability of the wines - - they want to add sulfites. Give me a wine with sulfites anyday than a wine that has the potential to harbor brettanomyces and acetobachter. But then again, I have to wonder when people tell me about the great organic sulfite free wines tastes and how delicious they are - - does that person really understand what the word "delicious" is and compared to what? Put about 7 years on that delicious organic wine and then tell me how delicous it is. Besides, what is the big deal - - if the human body can produce over a 1,000 ppm of sulfites a day, then why isn't it considered organic? Tue Mar 04 13:11:41 -0800 2008 3458937 91889 Walla2WineWoman 10 3468577 I believe it's easier for people to blame their headaches on sulfites because its an ingredient on the bottle. After much research along with allergist visits and lab tests many people (myself included) still dont know the cause of their headaches and are advised to "experiment" by trying dozens of bottles from around the world or avoid completely. I agree people are sulfite ignorant, however, the end result is wine does cause great discomfort for a sizable number of the population with no known cause. Thu Mar 06 22:46:40 -0800 2008 3459601 54184 tom porc 11 3468681 "I believe it's easier for people to blame their headaches on sulfites because its an ingredient on the bottle." After a big night of Italian wine tasting, I'd love to blame my headache on sulfites, but I know better... More water needed... it's gonna be a long day... Fri Mar 07 01:35:40 -0800 2008 3468577 89969 moh 11 3468969 Usually that's "too much wine," and not "wine" per se. Fri Mar 07 06:36:50 -0800 2008 3468577 28122 zin1953 12 3469880 Headaches can be caused from histamines, tannins and of course the alcohol. Natural histamines, especially are found in red wines (because the red wines sits in the must) . With sulfites, tannins and histamines, it can be a process of elimination. So we know that if you think you are allergic to sulfites and the original frozen french fries from the fast food join with a side of catsup, dried fruit or instant boxed potatoes haven't bothered you, then chances are sulfites in wine aren't going to bother you. And bothered you means - - a trip to the hospital because you cannot breath. Same with histamines. People who are severely allergic to histamines, generally have to go to the hospital when stung by a bee. But, if you can eat strawberries (which are huge in histamines) you probably are not allergic to histamines. I actually was allergic to histamines and when drinking red wine it would cause a rash on my face and neck/chest area and stuff up my nose. An anti-histamine (like Benedryl) before drinking red wine really helped out the symptoms and eventually I became immune - - thank goodness! My allergy MD said that allergies seem to change in our bodies about every 10 years. Tannins can sometimes cause problems and of course, those are going to be found in red wines, as well. But, if you can eat chocolate, drink coffee, eat a banana (tannins are high in the pith inside of the banana skin) and drink black pekoe tea (squeeze the tea bag and taste it - bitter - an example of tannins), then you're not allergic to tannins. And of course, alcohol opens the blood vessels. So in the sinus area, alcohol will cause swelling which brings a feeling of pressure - - head ache. Yup, hydrate-hydrate-hydrate!!! (I can talk this stuff in my sleep - too much research and a recent article about it) Fri Mar 07 10:51:12 -0800 2008 3468969 91889 Walla2WineWoman 13 3470152 As poster marialorraine has recently commented here, tyramines (which can constrict blood vessels) are another thing now being implicated in this debate about wine headache. And I wholeheartedly agree that hydration is the best defense. Some experts advise a 1 to 1 wine/water ratio. Fri Mar 07 11:53:47 -0800 2008 3469880 11405 Midlife 13 3471737 You, Walla, had me until you started to mention the histamine allergy. I don't understand what you are talking about. Everyone is "allergic" to histamine. Histamine is what is contained in your mast cells, amongst other cells, that causes allergic reactions. Histamine is what I, and other allergists who perform skin testing to assess patient's allergies, use as a positive control to confirm that our testing is valid. The comment that allergies change in our bodies over 10 years is purely supposition. While it is true that as people age, they generally become less atopic (or allergic), there is no defined time frame on how long allergic sensitization exists. As to the comments that people get stuffy noses with alcohol, alcohol is a vasodilator (dilates blood vessels). This vasodilitation is what causes the nasal stuffiness and not an allergy to the alcohol. Fri Mar 07 20:54:01 -0800 2008 3469880 61376 Bhutani 14 3476737 >>Histamine is what I, and other allergists who perform skin testing to assess patient's allergies, use as a positive control to confirm that our testing is valid. Yes, and where do you get the histamine to do your test? Histamines are a natural compound found in plants and humans (like sulfites are a natural compound found in plants and humans). And histamines are found in grape skins and especially fermented products. And from what I understand is, like sulfites, those who have problems with histamines, are lacking histamines in their system, like those who are really allergic to sulfites are lacking sulfites - sulfite oxidase deficiency. Sun Mar 09 22:04:18 -0700 2008 3471737 91889 Walla2WineWoman 15 3477172 Not to get completely off track and turn this into an allergy seminar, but I think you are confusing a number of things. There really is no such thing as a histamine deficiency. With regards to headaches and histamine, it is believed that these patients have a problem with histamine degradation not a lack of histamine itself. These patients purportedly have a deficiency in diamine oxidase. Hence, the use of anti-histamines in patients with histamine induced headaches (mind you this is not really my specialty but more in the realm of a neurologist). Why would someone take anti-histamines if they were deficient in histamine? Also, to your point that people with allergy to bees are senstive to histamine is not true. These patient's are allergic to the bee venom. This allergen is what triggers their mast cells to release histamine and cause the allergic reaction that they have. As for the sulfite sensitivity, the exact mechanism is not known. However, a sulfite oxidase deficiency wouldn't cause a lack of sulfites as you mention. Again, these patients probably have problems with sulfite metabolism. Mon Mar 10 06:37:14 -0700 2008 3476737 61376 Bhutani 13 3472822 Histamines have been ruled out as a cause of wine headaches. Several medical trials in 2006-7 recruited histamine sufferers who were then given wines doctored with various levels of histamines (including none), and the wines did not cause a reaction. http://www.chowhound.com/topics/455977 Sat Mar 08 10:45:21 -0800 2008 3469880 18222 maria lorraine 12 3470528 Though I do hear this type of complaint and reasoning often- "I was at a party/bar/dinner and drinking such and such wine and I got a headache so i must be allergic to sulfites..." People don't seem to take quantity into account when trying to figure out the cause of their headaches. Fri Mar 07 13:26:47 -0800 2008 3468969 70760 pierrot 1 3471644 Regarding headaches, etc.--it's true that sulfites are probably not the problem, since whites have more sulfites than reds, and for myself, a migraine sufferer, red wines are more problematic for me than whites--this is NOT because of sulfites, I know, but more likely tyramine, nitrates, and histamines. On trigger days, black tea, chocolate, coffee, cured meats, etc. are all bad news. That being said, I have found, through my neurologist's original recommendation and then my own experience, that red wines that label themselves "no added sulfites" or "sulfite free" are less problematic for me than others. It certainly could be placebo effect, I know, but on days where I'm afraid I might come down with a headache and the meal (company, husband's request, whatever) requires a red, I can often get away with it when it's lower in sulfites, whereas another would send me packing. Perhaps it's the combo of sulfites with red's tyramine; I'm not a chemist. I just know I can drink sulfite free red wines on headache days, and for that, I'm happy. But they're hard to find and not as reliably good. So to answer the poster's original question--there's one called "Well Read" at Trader Joe's that's organic and labelled sulfite free. It's just a table wine, but passable and inexpensive. So far, it's the only one I've found with any reliability for a weeknight meal. Fri Mar 07 19:56:48 -0800 2008 3386137 19626 thursday 1 3472956 I haven't checked this topic for a couple of weeks and it is so interesting how heated a question this turned out to be. I would like to thank everyone for info, opinions, etc. I can now consider myself informed on this topic. Cheers, all! Sat Mar 08 11:50:12 -0800 2008 3386137 154193 EliAnnKat