French Copper Pots = lined with TIN or STEEL?

[beauxgoris]

I've heard that it's pointless to line a copper pot with stainless as it just takes away it's heat conductivity, and that although it's more pernsnickty to use tin is the better choice. People are a fan of stainless because it's easier to clean and use (doesn't need re-tinning ever, etc) but that it doesn't really bring out the best in a copper pan.

Thoughts?

[FlyFish]

There are three, somewhat unrelated issues involved in answering your question. First is the question of even heat diffusion, i.e. lateral transfer of heat from the point where it's applied to the rest of the pan, so you don't get hot spots. That is largely a function of the primary material the pan is made of (copper) and the thickness of the copper. The lining really doesn't matter. Second is responsiveness, the ability of the pan to heat up and cool off quickly as the heat source is adjusted. That's a function of which metal is contributing the bulk of the thermal mass, which again is the copper - the mass of the lining is minor. Finally, there's the issue of heat transfer vertically through the pan and into the food, which is probably less important than the first two. Here, the lining material does matter and tin does have a better coefficient of thermal transfer than stainless, but one of the terms in the heat transfer equation is the distance that the heat has to travel through the material. Because the lining is so thin, the difference between tin and stainless, while real, is minimal and probably can't be noticed in practice. All of my few dozen copper pieces are tin-lined because I'm an unapologetic traditionalist, but if I were interested solely in maintenance-free cooking I'd opt for stainless, no question.

[beauxgoris]

^^Thank you for your thoughtful response. May I ask how long you've had your tin-lined copper cookware and if you've had it re-tinned yet? I know not to used tin-lined for searing and such (I'd use my Griswold for that), mainly to sauté in - if it were used correctly how long would tin-lined copper cookware last before it would need a re-tinning? I prefer the look of the tinned if preformance isn't a huge factor.

[renov8r]

I don't know about FlyFish (a few DOZEN?!?) but I have three pieces of tin lined copper. The oldest piece is about 20 years old. It is a really large skillet. On average it gets used about weekly, (often in the oven) -- lining shows very little wear -- maybe it'll need a reline by whoever inherits it.

I have a medium-large (3qt?) windsor pan than get used a bit less, it has a slightly more "used" interior, but still ought to be good for a decade or more.

Finally I have a stock pot. During the cooler months it gets used probably 6-8 times a month, the warmer months far less. It looks like new, though it is over a decade old.

Mind you these were bought new and are quality pans, really built to commercial use standards. I suspect that in a commercial kitchen even these might need to be retinned annually, but I don't cook out of these exclusively. They are hammered copper, very HEAVY, almost to the point of being unwieldy, but when I am making something for a crowd (or showing off) I do use them. They are handwashed and stored well...

The tinned lined hammered stuff looks wonderful. I think there is a wee bit of performance edge, but that may just be shear density. I have multi-ply pans with copper cores surrounded by SS and they work very very well too. They don't make nearly as impressive a visual, though they are a lot more forgiving of less than perfect care...

[FlyFish]

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner - I was away for the weekend, and as it turns out renov8r has already told you just about exactly the same thing I would have. Given even modest care, the tin linings on good-quality copper (most of my pieces are Mauviel) are not nearly as fragile as some would have you believe. My oldest pieces are 20+ years old and have been in steady, but certainly not daily, use. I haven't had to have any retinned yet, but there are a couple that are just about ready for it.

[fayehess]

Can I just say, one cook to another, that was an amazing amount of information. I really appreciate it. I worked with a set of copper pans for the first time this Fall, when I was teaching in France and I fell head over heels for them. fayefood.com

[jackie57]

stainless steel sticks! i don't have as much of a problem with that when i use my heavy french copper- not sure if that is tin or nickel lined. it is maybe 35 years old and just got to where the lining has worn off in spots.

[ThreeGigs]

Tin is more conductive, so it'll get the heat from the flame to your food 'faster' and more efficiently than stainless steel *of the same thickness*.

As mentioned above, since stainless doesn't conduct as well as tin, the heat will spread through the copper more evenly before making its way to the food, which is one of the main reasons one buys copper. It's much easier to control the heat in a stainless lined pan.

Overall, because stainless linings are generally much thinner than tin linings, there is very little difference in actual use. Tin conducts heat about 4 times as well as stainless (although still only one-sixth as well as copper), but is also usually applied in a layer two to three times as thick as a stainless layer. End result is heat transfer to the food that's only marginally better, with the tradeoff of a more concentrated hotspot.

Personally, I prefer stainless because it doesn't require special treatment. The first time your wife/husband/child overheats a pot you'll appreciate stainless. Being able to use a green scrubbie is a bonus, too.

That much said, tin would still be preferable in thinner pans used for boiling, especially stockpots. Otherwise, it really doesn't make as much of a difference as you may have been led to believe.

[Karl S]

Get the stainless; inherit the tin.

[takadi]

You have to re-tin every so often since tin is softer, which is expensive and a pain in the ass.

[beauxgoris]

^^^Doesn't depend on how you treat it? I'd be interested to hear how many times a decade pans need re-tinning from someone that's used theirs for a while.

[mythomane]

I have a set of stainless lined pans by Falk and they are great pans, with some reservations. They are Heavy. They state in the instructions not to use salt in your cooking because it wears away the lining. Try cooking without salt some time. Does not work. Once the stainless goes (if it goes) that is it. You have to chuck them away. Handles are 19th century style cast iron. They tend to rust a little which is no big deal, the major problem being that they get very hot when cooking. Potholders are essential, unless you have VERY calloused hands. This is a pain in the neck. I have had them for a year and am not unhappy, but wish they could of used a lighter/less conductive metal for the handles. Oh yeah...they are also expensive as hell. Maybe buy one or two first.

[Zedeff]

Every piece of stainless steel cookware I own came with a tag saying not to expose the pan to salt. It hardly "wears away" linings so you should use salt as you normally would and don't lose sleep over it. Don't add salt exclusively to an otherwise empty pan; if adding salt to a liquid, heat the liquid first, then stir in the salt rather than letting salt sit in the bottom until dissolved by boiling. Don't leave large amounts of salt in an otherwise empty pan and you're fine!

If you don't want to use salt at all, then get rid of that pan; is it really worth using a pan that prevents you from cooking things to your best capabilities? What's the point?

[MikeG]

I've had one ss lined copper saucepan (Mauviel) for going on 15 years and salt notwithstanding, it's in fine shape. It might not be as responsive tin, I wouldn't know, but it's a great pot. IMHO, iron handles are presumably longer lasting and while not quite as pretty to look at, not a big issue. I don't think the handle on mine has ever gotten hot enough to be seriously uncomfortable, but I guess it depends how long you usually leave it over heat.

As to the salt thing, I think the biggest thing to avoid is a lot of salt + moisture. It's probably unecessary, but if I'm adding salt to water, I do stir it around so it doesn't just sit on the bottom while it comes to a boil or whatever...

[ThreeGigs]

FYI about the salt thing, read my post in this thread:

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/508788

[MikeG]

Thanks, I don't have a regular habit of adding after/before boiling and pitting hasn't been a problem with any of my (now rather aging SS pots, in general), but it's worth knowing about.

[will47]

I think the salt pitting thing is mostly cosmetic anyway. Stainless cookware makers warn about it, because they don't want you to try and return the pot later when it's "damaged" in this way.

[ellabee]

My Falk instructions don't say not to use salt, and they certainly don't say it will "wear away" the stainless. Virtually nothing will wear away .2mm of stainless steel.

What they do say is to avoid adding salt until liquid has come to a boil, the same good advice that applies to every stainless pan. And, as will47 says, if salt pits do develop they are more of a cosmetic effect than anything that affects the function of the pan.

I find the cast iron handles stay significantly cooler than bronze handles (as on the Mauviel line made for Williams-Sonoma). The champion of coolness, both in terms of temperature and looks, is the long, curved cast stainless handle on Mauviel's Cuprinox Style line [now discontinued in 2mm copper, sadly].

[GeezerGourmet]

At last count there were 18 copper pots and pans in our professional home kitchen. Some new, others dating back to the '60s (Paris). All three hand-hammered stock pots are tin lined and have held up well. They will never need retinning. So, if cheaper, buy tin lined stock pots. The 9" tin-lined sautuese has been retired after one retinning and in need of another. Two tin lined sauce pots are less used for the same reason. Over the last 25 years, we've retined three pans, the sautuese and one sauce pot at about $75 each and one huge handled high top at $90. I will have to retin the high top again in a year or so since I can't be without it. So, I'm one with Karl S: "buy stainless inherit tin." To that end, I have found the Bourgeat stainless lined copper pans to be the best on the planet. Not surprisingly, they're also the most expensive.

[Gooseberry]

I'm sorry for being nosy, but how many people are you cooking for? I just can't imagine needing 18 copper pots in a home kitchen. Or do you collect copper for pleasure rather than constant daily use?

[GeezerGourmet]

Just as Julia Childs says you can make do with three knives, so too with pots and pans. Or in the workshop, why buy power tools when a hammer, hand saw and brace and bit will do? It's all about the job and tools: Can a whole salmon fillet be sauteed in a 9" frying pan? Sure. It will hang over the sides a bit if not first cut in half to fit the pan. Can it be done better, with less trauma to the fish resulting in a better presentation, if prepared in a 14" oval frying pan designed for the job?. Yah! And more fun too.
And so on, for flared and straight sided pans, big and small stock pots, evasees with one handle, casseroles with two. Or maybe the chef wants to present a dish in the pan it was made in...chicken pot pies in individual copper ramekins, for example. Awesome! Go overboard a little for pleasure and display: sure--that too (see photo);.

[FlyFish]

GeezerG, that's the most superb answer to that question I've ever heard.

[Gooseberry]

Thanks for the detailed reply, geezergourmet. While I might not be at your stage yet, I certainly don't have three pots either (your post prompted me to count: 3 frying pans, 1 stock pot, 2 saucepans, 1 pasta pot, 6 LC-type enamel cast iron pots/dishes)! Maybe one day when I have space and money, I'll go your route. For now, I'm planning on buying my first entry-level copper pan (SS-lined), so the copper bug may very well bite!

[mythomane]

Did forget to emphasize that they are really beautiful pans. Nice whites there, geezer!

[chazzerking]

Ther are 2 more options that you don't mention. I have some Spring Bro's heavy commercial copper pans that are nickel lined and there is essentially no wear, despite heavy use for nearly 20 years. I ahve also used, but can't claim ownership (although I do covet some) a silver-lined saute pan, that is even more responsive than tin lined. Silver is just about as conductive as the copper, but I don't know about the wear resistance.

[beauxgoris]

These are all great replies. I'm leaning towards tin I think. I'm a traditionalist I guess.

[Goodnight Gracie]

Chazzerking, I've inherited a Spring copper fish poacher and I have been looking all over the net for info on it, which search actually led me to you! It's vintage, it's very possibly from their commercial line. The lining looks like silver to me, tarnishes like silver, but I don't know what nickel lined looks like, and the Spring website mentions a silver alloy (silinox, I think). I am hoping you can help me to identify the pot. The markings are simply "SPRING" (over a crest of maybe a springbok??) Below that is "MADE IN SWITZERLAND" and below that is "IV", and I am going to *try* to attach a photo soon

Thanks for reading this and any help you can give me!

[jackie57]

i have a copper / silver lined casserole that i cannot find any info on. it has a paper with it that says it was made by Christian Wagner in West Germany. it also says the company, Wagner, was founded in 1524. the pot has a mark on it that indicates the amount of silver that the interior is lined with.
i can't find anything online about this company.
anyone know?
it is a lovely pot and i would love to know more about it. oh- i got it at an antique store for i think 40 bucks? it looked new, except for a small heat mark on the underside.
thanks in advance for any knowledge-

[kaleokahu]

Hi, jackie57:

I would love to see this pan. Please post photos? If it was made in "West Germany", that means 20th C., but it still might be very good quality. Most makers only lined their very best in silver.

You might want to also check out oldcopper.org. If Vin Calcut doesn't have a photo of the Wagner mark, I know he'd appreciate having one for his compilation.

Most importantly, how does it cook? Do you have any information on advantages/disadvantages of silver over tin linings?

Aloha,
Kaleo

[DishyDiva]

Wow, this thread has impressively well-written (detailed and articulate) posts!

I've been curious about copper cookware for some time but haven't been able to justify the cost. Someone has posted for sale a small copper stock pot on my local Craigslist that is absolutely stunning, especially because it is hand-hammered, has a tin interior and riveted cast brass handles. The pot is 10.5' high by 7' wide and the seller is asking $200 for it. I'd like to buy it but am uncertain this is a good value.

May I ask two questions of my own? Does the tin interior discolour? Also, where would one get pots re-tinned?

Thanks!

[ThreeGigs]

Ack, where to start?
For your first copper piece, a stock pot isn't something I'd recommend. You generally want copper because its high conductivity means it spreads heat more evenly than other materials, meaning a small flame on a gas burner won't cause a spot of burnt food in the pan directly above it. That property is not of much use on stockpots which are generally used for thin liquids that can convect the heat away.

As for value, NOT ALL COPPER COOKWARE IS CREATED EQUALLY. In general, you want your copper to be 2 millimeters thick, or thicker. A stockpot of the size you describe should weigh about 8 or 9 pounds. Always ask how heavy a piece is, or how thick the copper is. In general, avoid Tagus and Copral brands, or anything made in Portugal. Also avoid any copper pieces with a 'rolled' edge. If the copper is thin enough to roll, it's too thin to cook well with. In general, the higher end copper cookware pieces are made with cast-iron handles, not brass. That said, a thin copper pot *is* good for boiling water, as the conductivity of the copper, plus the thinness yields great efficiency in getting heat from an electric element or gas flame into the water.

Now, if that $200 copper pot (seems like a pasta pot, as it's taller than it is wide) is heavier than 8 lbs., or 2.5mm thick or thicker, you may have found yourself a bargain.

As for retinning... there are many places where you can mail your pot to be retinned. Measure your pot down one side, across the bottom, and up the other side (in inches). Multiply by 4, and that's the usual cost (in dollars) for retinning. Your stockpot above would cost:
10.5 + 10.5 + 7 = 28 inches, times 4 = $112 for retinning.
Just use Google to search for retinning copper cookware. Yes, the tin lining will discolor and dull over time as the tin wears away.

If you're really interested in trying out copper cookware, I suggest you look for a saucepan (or sauteuse) or saute pan as your first piece. I personally recommend against tin-lined, unless you're only boiling water. Good luck, and be careful about getting bitten with the copper cookware bug, as you've seen it can get pretty expensive!

[lacodaeast]

Hi all,
Since this seems to be the place for copper questions I thought I'd get your opinion on a set of copper pots I bought at an estate sale. At the time I thought it was too good to be true and perhaps it was. I got 7 pieces and 4 lids for $140. The previous owner was a family friend and known as a great cook so I assumed they were good quality and the low price was due to the need to sell. Some of the pots are marked Copral and some are don't have a makers mark but also have a rolled lip. They have been well used so that two or three of the pots will need to be re-tinned. I wonder if they worked well for her or if she just figured it was good enough. So my main question is, is there any point in keeping them and using the pieces with the intact tin or should I just try to sell them on ebay as a decorative set or something so that I could buy a better brand?
Thanks

[ThreeGigs]

Copral is...not so good. Thin copper from Portugal with thin tin linings.
Copper for a pan should be thick enough that not only shouldn't you have to roll the lip to make it sturdy, it should be too thick to roll in the first place.

Put it this way. If you think you could put a 'ding' or dent in the copper, it's essentially junk (unless it's just for boiling water on a gas stove).

Go here:
http://www.copperpans.com

Look at the weights of the pans they have listed, and compare to yours.

[kaleokahu]

Yes, do go there to see... Falk pans with rolled rims! LOL

[ThreeGigs]

FYI, I think I found your pot on Craigslist. It looks like a Mauviel soup station pot in the Cuprinox line, with a lid from a lower-end line. If so, it's a great deal at $195... if you have a use for a copper soup pot, that is :-).

[DishyDiva]

ThreeGigs, thank you SO much for taking the time to answer at length my queries and going so far as to search for the pot on Craigslist for me.

The pot I'm considering is indeed listed at $195 (I don't know why I thought it was $200).

It didn't occur to me to ask how heavy the pot is but I defintely will ask. I am in the market for a stock pot anyway and this one fits the bill in terms of size. Also, it's attractive enough for storing/displaying in plain view -- a necessity as I have absolutely no more cupboard space.

I can see how one can go bankrupt building a collection of copper cookware but I don't aspire to matching that of GeezerGourmet's! Given what I've read, 2 or 3 pieces is within my budget and should serve me well. As per your advice, I will get a sauteuse but since -- as you point out, the Craigslist stock pot seems to be a good deal, I will start with this piece.

Wow, this has been truly educational. Cheers! :-)

[Fatbuddy]

I own a couple of very nice stainless steel lined copper pieces and love them! I have the extra heavy commercial grade 2.5mm copper with the cast iron handles. The 2mm or thinner copper cookware usually come with bronze (or is it brass?) handles.

The only difference between stainless steel and tin is, you have to eventually replace the tin lining, and you can't accidentally overheat a tin lining or you will ruin it.

Yes, purists will use tin lined copper. But if you are like me and like to use tremendous amounts of heat when I saute and cook in general, the stainless steel lined copper will be foolproof to use.

It is a personal preference, but I prefer the stainless lining.

And, no I don't bother keeping the outside of my copper pots and pans bright and shiny. I want people to know I use my cookware, and I think unpolished copper looks just as good.

[beauxgoris]

I've always heard that copper pans were much less conductive with SS lining. Is that true or false?

[ThreeGigs]

Thermal conductivity in k (W/m·K) of
copper: 401
tin: 66
Stainless steel: 16 to 18 (300 series average)

So, tin conducts heat about 4 times as well.

But...

The typical lining of stainless in a copper pan is .008 inches, or about 0.2 millimeters. Tin is typically quoted at 0.5 millimeters, but your mileage may vary as the lining wears, due to variances in hand wiping, etc.

So, tin conducts 4 times as well, but is 2 1/2 times as thick. So the words "much less conductive" fail to apply in my book, as the heat *does* make its way into the food in the pan lined with stainless, it just 'spreads sideways' more than it would with a tin lining, and THAT'S A GOOD THING in my book.

Oh, as long as we're at it.
Conductivity of nickel: 91
Conductivity of silver: 429

If you *really* care about conductivity in your copper pans, you'd have them silver or nickel plated. You can still find silver lined copper cookware, or have yours plated instead of retinned.

[FlyFish]

Excellent post, and I agree completely. Another factor concerning conductivity is that you can be more comfortable turning the heat up under a stainless lining than under a tin one, as Fatbuddy alluded to above. As I mentioned in my earlier post, all my copper is tin-lined because I'm a traditionalist, but stainless really is more practical and doesn't hurt the performance at all.

[anoelchick]

I'm new at copper pots and pans. I bought 2 at a yard sale the other day and absolutely love the way they cook.

I am wondering how in the world to tell the weight (thus the conductivity) of the product when it's listed in a catalog . . . at a very nice sale price I must add! I'm thinking I'll have to go to the actual store to get a closer-more-informed look.

[beauxgoris]

wait I'm confused, are you trying to price your yardsale pots - or just buy more of the same?

[anoelchick]

I am actually just trying to learn more about copper pans, so that when I buy them, I will know more about what I'm doing. That is why I found this site.

The copper pans I found at a yard sale are heavier and marked "Made in Portugal" while the ones I bought from the catalog are lighter and sadly marked "Made in China." I have a feeling that although I like these bright and shiny new additions to my kitchen that they're not as special as I had hoped.

I've not tried them yet though--maybe they'll still prove themselves worthy :)

[ThreeGigs]

Made in Portugal?

You sir, have yet to encounter 'heavy' copper.
Go to a Willams Sonoma or Sur la Table, or anywhere that sells Mauviel near you. Then you'll know what truly heavy copper cookware feels like.

Or, get the Falk 'try me' piece.

[anoelchick]

ThreeGigs, I will do what you've suggested. I'm not a sir though--I'm a woman. ;)

[FlyFish]

As ThreeGigs correctly points out, copper made in China, Portugal, or Italy is rarely (actually, never, in my experience) equal to the truly high-quality lines such as the French Mauviel or Bourgeat and the Belgian Falk. The difference is in the thickness of the copper. If you have access to a caliper, you can measure the thickness directly - 2.0 mm is typically considered an absolute minimum thickness for "heavy" copper and really 2.5 mm is a more standard lower limit. I have a number of pieces that are 3.5 mm thick, which is the maximum thickness I've ever seen. Lesser lines, and even the "presentation" series manufactured by Mauviel, tend to be in the 1.0 to 1.25-mm range.

If you'd like to check the thickness of the pieces you have (and don't have access to a good caliper), compare them to the thickness of a standard CD, which is 1.25-mm. My guess is they'll be roughly the same, or a bit less. For comparison, real quality heavy copper will be the equivalent of 2 to 3 CDs thick.

[WoodFire]

Turns out if you run the numbers (I actually found data for thermal conductivity at elevated temps) the tin lined pot has a theoretical heat flux that is 1.55X higher than the stainless steel which is not a trivial difference 124,000 vs. 80,000 W/m^2*K). The implication is that you can heat about 50% faster in a tin lined pot than in a stainless steel pot. I'm going to see if I can run an experiment with a thermocouple to measure temp rise in both styles of pans if I can find ones with comparable copper wall thicknesses. God, what a geek - 10 years in college and 20 in the kitchen...I personally like a couple pieces of each as there are benefits to each.

[FlyFish]

The factor of 1.55 would only apply if the tin and stainless linings are the same thickness (see ThreeGigs post above). I've never actually measured the thickness of tin vs. stainless, but if the 2.5:1 ratio he/she cites is correct, then the stainless-lined pan should transfer heat faster (assuming all other factors, including thickness of the copper, to be equal). Please post your results when/if you get around to conducting your experiment.

[tim irvine]

I guess I am somewhere in the middle, with about a dozen pieces of copper, most of which get used pretty regularly. Most are very heavy Mauviel. Two pieces have SS lining, a small sauce pan and a roasting pan. The SS seems to stick a little more than the tin and perhaps to be a little less responsive, but both are fantastic. I got the SS in those two pans because they both get a lot of use with Delbor whisks which would chisel away tin in nothing flat. I do vastly prefer the cast iron handles, I like they way they look and they are way more comfortable and solid to grip than those pretty but generally thinner brass ones. Also a word on lids...obviously just about anything works (I use a cookie sheet on my 12" skillet!), but if you are getting pans with matching kids, the old fashioned French style ones with pigtail handles are fabulous. They don't fit so tight that the create stovetop sputter and they are very easy to use for draining things.

Collecting copper pans (I also have some cast iron, an SS stock pot, and some black steel) can lead you to some cool places. I fell in love with the way pomme vapeurs looked and had an opportunity to snag one with a subsidy from a gift certificate. I love it and use it all the time. It is almost black inside, probably from asparagus and broccoli, but it does a great job and is just so darned charming!

Check the thread on re-tinning if you go that way. Re-tinning can take what seems like forever, and some jobs are better than others.

[anoelchick]

It's funny. I need more pots and pans like shall I say it . . . like I need another hole in my head. I hated to resort to that trite ole saying but it communicates. I have digested this excellent information. Eventhough I don't need more pots and pans, I may need one or two very nice copper ones.

And eventhough my newest additions aren't the finest of the lot, they did do a wonderful job today. The whole of the early Thanksgiving get together celebrated here was prepared in those "Made in China" copper additions. I am pleased with the outcome of the food, and that is what it boils down to. :)

[lacodaeast]

Hi all,
Since this seems to be the place for copper questions I thought I'd get your opinion on a set of copper pots I bought at an estate sale. At the time I thought it was too good to be true and perhaps it was. I got 7 pieces and 4 lids for $140. The previous owner was a family friend and known as a great cook so I assumed they were good quality and the low price was due to the need to sell. Some of the pots are marked Copral and some are don't have a makers mark but also have a rolled lip. They have been well used so that two or three of the pots will need to be re-tinned. I wonder if they worked well for her or if she just figured it was good enough. So my main question is, is there any point in keeping them and using the pieces with the intact tin or should I just try to sell them on ebay as a decorative set or something so that I could buy a better brand?
Thanks

[beauxgoris]

Tim - are the "pigtail" handles the ones that are flat (no lip) and have a long flat handle coming off? They look like lollipops sort of... if you I have a ton of those and LOVE them - but they're so hard to find now.

[FlyFish]

I'm not Tim, but from his description I'm assuming that's what he's talking about. I have a bunch of them as well - the biggest a 30 cm beauty that I bought from Fantes - and I agree they're great. They were pretty generally available and then several years ago they just vanished from the market. Most of the ones I've seen, and all the ones I have, are flat, but I recall they had some at Bridge a number of years ago that had the lip on the edge so that they'd really only fit one size pan.

[beauxgoris]

I wonder if Fantes still has any? May warrent a phone call from me to check it out I totally agree - all of the sudden a few years ago they totally disappeared. They're wonderful to use and look beautiful hanging on the kitchen as well. The first time I saw them was on Julia Child's PBS cooking show years ago. I assume she purchased all of hers when she lived in France.

[anoelchick]

Well I've googled and ebayed, meaning I've been checking out French Mauviel, Bourgeat, and Belgian Falk. The most outstanding pot I found was a tall and slim, hammered stock pot by Mauviel that an owner was letting go for $300.00. The owner assured the to-be purchaser that it had been kept in a store room for decades and did not contain one nick or dent. It was beautiful and sold, but I was tempted by its unique shape and hammered beauty. Thank you all for posting outstanding information!

If I find the site of the stock pot can I upload the site/picture?

[tim irvine]

Here is a place that still has such lids (or at least advertises they do!):

http://www.frenchcopperstudio.com/lon...

I never think to ask people what they have that is not advertised on their websites, but the larger, more eclectic places, like Fantes or Dehillerin, will inevitably have a ton of neat stuff that is not shown on their site.

[beauxgoris]

^^Very cool. Yup those are the ones I love. Thanks for the link!!

[ThreeGigs]

I think Ruffoni still makes lids like that. Or at least I've seen Ruffoni that looked new with that style lid.

[winencheesepa]

When I bought mine, I researched the tin/steel issue and went with the Mauviel stainless steel.
I also decided to spend a little more for the professional series with the SSteel handles as well, much
better that the brass. The handles stay cool to the touch. At first I kept mine shinny, but now I don't bother, I use them so often. Only problem is that the larger skillet can get very heavy to lift when full.
But I do love cooking with them.

[drhiii]

Have to say I thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread, which is my introduction to chowhound.com too. I am getting through my 'iron' phase, to the great relief of my wife who has had to suffer through my discarding all of the non slick coated cookware three-four years ago, and doing a detox thing (it really has made a huge difference btw). But am now learning about copper and, well, ok, I am a bit slow in this. Came to it later in life out of necessity... but wanted to say that in researching, this has been a most excellent thread. Have my first copper skillet arriving soon...

[swiss_chef]

Great thread!
I'm looking for a retinning source in Europe, I live between Switzerland and Italy and have several pots that need to be retinned (about 60 to be honest). Does anyone have a source in northern Italy or south-eastern France?

Just for fun... here are a few of my pots.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

If you have a heat source , and a tin supplier , you can do these yourself. Guys on my blacksmithing site do it themselves by dropping a chunk of pure tin into the cup, pot, whatever, and heating it up till it melts. Once the tin has melted, carefully swirl it around till it covers the insides. The inside has to be totally clean, and I would have to recheck to see if they used a flux to aid in adhesion. There is a video out there of a German craftsman making a copper kettle from start to finish, including tinning.

[bobluhrs]

What kind of flux would we use for this? Is there a brand or type? Or just ordinary flux from hardware store like soft rosin in the little jars used for radio soldering? hmmm. I have one pan could use this.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

I will have to check with my forum friends who have done this before, and get back with you. You may also try just a Google search for - how to re-tin a copper pot, and see what comes up.

I need to look this up myself, as I have some copper that I want to make a cup out of.

[tim irvine]

I have no idea for a tinning source in Europe, but I would wager Dehillerin (Paris) knows of one. Also, as regards the tin versus stainless lining debate, I don't notice a difference in conductivity, but I do notice a difference in how much they stick. Stainless steel sticks more, IMHO.

[beauxgoris]

^^^Interesting. I wonder why that is?

[Zedeff]

Stainless is generally the "stickiest" metal, both as a combination of its metallurgy and (mostly) manufacturing processes. A metal's stickiness is basically a measure of how pitted or rough the surface is. As the number of nooks and crannies in the surface increases, you allow more proteins to creep into those nooks during cooking and change due to the heat (just think of eggs). This is where we get our cooking techniques from; you first heat a dry pan to swell the metal and close off some gaps, then you add oil to bridge the gaps and hopefully cook proteins before they can fill those nooks and stick.

Look at the lining of any of your stainless cookware; it has a brushed finish, usually with a visible texture of concentric rings. Tin lined pans on the other hand are smooth and glossy. Tin is basically applied to copper pans by heating a glob of tin in the pan until it is molten and swirling the pan to coat; in fact, you can see a video of this on the Williams Sonoma website when looking at their copper Mauviel pans. This process produces a smooth finish because the metal is liquid, so you have less nooks, and thus less sticking.

A sticky pan can be hand though, mostly for pan sauces when you want to encourage that sticking of foods.

[tim irvine]

Thanks. Questions answered with facts that I now realize I knew intuitively! I agree it can be handy. I absolutely LOVE my stainless lined roasting pan for the gravies it makes. Plus I can get in there and work with impunity using a metal Delbor whisk and not worry about any consequences!

[sabatier]

along the lines of tin or steel lining: I'm looking to have my collection of coppers electroplated with nickle/high crome nickle. Have been tinning my coppers for decades but my tinner passed away a few years ago and my copper lining is getting spotty and turning black, (not a healthy state for a tin lining). I must say that the cost of tinning has gotten out of hand so I figured I'd bite the bullet/$$$ and invest in a new type of lining.

Not thrilled about stainless as a lining: not as heat reactive as tin or silver....kinda like driving a ferrari with the emergency brake on. My nickle lined sauce and saute pans have lasted for decades w/o any signs of giving up their surface. My question is....I've been reading about possible health problems w/nickle exposure thru food....any thoughts on that?

one last note: these pans are used on a vulcan restaurant stove, (not the made for home use things) that puts out major btu's....it can chew up and spit out tin linings like there's no tomorrow...some of my heavy use sautees are retinned every year....and yes, I do have a full cadre of french steel, griswold casts and the dreaded alunimum work horses.

thanks and welcome your comments

[David A. Goldfarb]

I've used Atlantic Retinning since they were in Manhattan, and once after they moved out to NJ. I gather from your profile that you're in NYC, so they're the closest, but he does get backed up sometimes.

I've heard positive things about this company in Ohio--

http://www.metalcoatingcompany.com/

In response to the original question--I generally prefer tin lining, because it's more responsive and slicker than stainless, and with normal home use only seems to require retinning every 15 years or so (I have some pieces that have been in my family for around 30 years now), but stainless lining is handy for higher temperatures. I have a stainless lined evasee that I've used occasionally for deep frying. I've also got one Mauviel nonstick frypan, which is a useful thing. Before buying it around eight years ago I made sure that it was possible to have it recoated, but so far it hasn't needed it.

[dost]

I'm jumping in here about a year later, but please check my post (with photos) of the terrible job metal coating company in Lima, Ohio did of retinning on my pan. They also changed (increased) the shipping price on me after I had already sent them my pan... I will NEVER have another pan retinned by them. I have to be even more careful than usual with this lining now, as it is bumpy lumpy & scratchy. This is an excellent thread, so I felt it was important to interject my first hand experience.

[soohum]

I have read this whole string and found it delightful. It is informative and has answered a lot of my own wonders about tin vs. stainless for a lining. I just discovered a posting about tin that might be of use to some in deciding what kind of lining to choose.

For my own tastes, I might have erred on the side of stainless because I *could* throw it in the dishwasher, use steel wool on it, I love to cook on a hot flame, my husband does a lot of cooking and he's not as careful, etc. The one quality about tin that I have read that makes it maybe trump the stainless is that food sticks to it less. (maybe that would mitigate the need for steel wool?) Then I had come across some nickel-lined copper pots online and wondered what that was all about so I googled it and found that nickel is maybe not so healthy. Nickel is also used in a stainless steel alloy. Tin, on the other hand, like silver, is an essential nutrient that's actually good for you. Below is a link with a nice long article that says a lot about tin. So, if you're looking at health as a factor and you can stand to wash by hand, retin occasionally, use a delicate kind of whisk and keep the flame low enough, tin might be the choice for you. :)

By the way, I have read mixed reviews on Atlantic Retinning, and I have read on the Fantes website that they do retinning. Personally I'd trust Fantes.

By the way I was actually looking for possible health hazards of tin when I found this article on some health benefits.
http://www.acu-cell.com/tin.html

[beauxgoris]

^^^Interesting. Thanks for posting.

[mateo21]

Nickel is an essential micro-nutrient as well as Tin. High levels of either are not good for you, just like high levels of, well, just about anything! Also you never put any copper pan in the dishwasher -- it will not come out pretty, lined with Tin or SS, it doesn't matter. And lastly, do you really use steel-wool on your SS pots? That's going to put a lot of small scratches on the finish possibly (if you do it enough) wearing it down or just making your food stick more by vastly increasing the surface area of your pan.

[Beckyleach]

Maybe someone can help me: I just purchased a vintage set of copper saucepans, made in Montreal, Canada, off of Ebay. Now, I KNOW they're not super-wonderful, thick French copper--that will have to wait till the kids are out of college--but I'm concerned as to the lining of this *fairly* nice--it appears--set. They were obviously used to cook in, but the seller was not the original owner. He listed in his copy that these pans were "lined with aluminum" but I Googled and Googled and took a chance that he was wrong, and got seven pans for aproximately $100, BECAUSE of what I hope was his mistake.

Has *anyone* ever heard of copper saucepans being lined with aluminum? I'm thinking, instead, that the lining must be nickel, instead of the usual tin, and that's why he was confused. It appears that there are Canadian made copper pans that are nickel lined, but I do not know how to ascertain for sure if this is what I have.

I mean, I'm gonna feel like a $100 IDIOT if I bought pans that will react with most of the sauces I plan to cook in them, and may increase the risk of Alzeheimers, to boot.

Somebody please reassure me. ;-) Thanks!

[David A. Goldfarb]

I don't think there is any traditional copperware lined with aluminum. There is a period before the technique for bonding stainless steel to copper was perfected when you can find nickel lined copperware. I have one or two pieces that I think are nickel lined. They have a duller interior finish than most of my tin lined copper.

On the other hand there could be aluminum cookware that has a decorative copper layer on the outside, I suppose.

The alleged link between aluminum and Alzheimers has been disproven for several years now. Most restaurant food is prepared in aluminum cookware, even acidic sauces.

[Beckyleach]

Thank you for your response. I have a link to pictures of the pots--they don't look new nor especially decorative--but they aren't particularly heavy, either... Confusing. I don't know how long these pics will remain up, as they're from Ebay, but I cannot copy them. Sorry.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...

[David A. Goldfarb]

That kind of dull finish with patches of dark oxidation around the edges of one or two of the pots looks like nickel to me. 1.5mm is the typical thickness of thinner copperware and is too thin to be aluminum with a copper skin.

[Beckyleach]

Sounds good to me. Well, that'll give me something to play with while I wait for my family to start gifting me with Mauviel (since the All-Clad is pretty much full up ;-).

[coppernovice]

I am a newbie to copper, but made a big leap (at least in $$) by purchasing several pieces. The two most significant and most expensive (!) are a 6 Gallon 12"x12" 2.5mm thick (minimum, it may be thicker but I don't have a caliper in mm just inches) stock pot (yes, almost too heavy to lift even when empty) with the mark "Guillard Paris" and a casserole, with the same marking and thickness, that measures 10"h x 12"w. I also purchased several misc pieces, a copper bowl, a collander, a caramel pan, a very small sauce pan, etc.,. The lot was purchased for $350 at an estate sale. My questions are as follows:
1. Does anyone know anything about Guillard. I have not seen this line mentioned in any threads"

2. Although no copper is showing through the tin lining, there are blackish areas on the bottom of the pans. I have cleaned them well and am now wondering if the black areas are a problem that will require me to re-tin the pots even though there is no visible copper.

3. If I wanted to resell the overly heavy stock pot, what would be a fair price (assuming it does not need re-tinning)?

[David A. Goldfarb]

Mauviel only started stamping their pots with their own brand relatively recently. Before then, they were stamped "Made in France" sometimes with a chef's toque, and sometimes with the name of the retailer.

Additionally, you may find a hand engraved number, typically four digits, if the item has been retinned by Atlantic Retinning, though I've used them, and sometimes they might only engrave one item in an order. I suppose other retinning services may do the same.

Guillard may be a manufacturer or they may be a retailer. Look at other Mauviel pots and you may be able to tell if it's the same design. Mauviel stock pots usually have bronze handles. The best ones are hammered and can be quite thick--sometimes as much as 3.5 or 4mm for the larger pots. Some older sizes have been discontinued, like 10" and 12", and have been replaced with metric sizes, though they are often sold in the U.S. by approximate measurements in inches (9.5", 11", 12.5").

Mauviel professional long-handled pieces like frypans, saute pans, and saucepans, have heavy cast iron handles usually. On newer versions the handle is offset a bit further from the rim of the pan to accommodate newer style lids. On older pans, the handle comes very close to the rim, and current style lids will not fit, so you need to find another lid that works or an older style flat lid with a long cast iron handle. Cuisinart makes a universal lid with an off center handle and a cutout for the handle of the pan that works.

Darkening of the tin lining is not a problem. I recommend just not worrying about it. If copper is showing through, then it needs to be retinned.

The price of the stock pot will depend on what you can find out about who made it, the condition, the construction, and how heavy it really is. Regarding construction, some collectors are interested in pots with visible dovetail seams, while people who want to cook with them may be wary of dovetailed pots. Find out what you can, take good photos, measure the thickness with a calipers or at least weigh it, and put it on eBay, and the market will decide. If it's the real deal and that shows in your photos and your description, you can sell it for about what you paid for the set, maybe a bit more.

[alarash]

Hi Coppernovice,

I am interested in buying your Guillard pots. I think you will be please with my offers, and I anticipate we can come to an agreement on terms.

Please email me at [e-mail] if you are interested in them.

Thanks

[ThreeGigs]

I have bad news (although it's just my opinion).
Those pans appear to be aluminum pans with a copper plating on the outside. Faux copper, as it were. Similar to some Revereware lines, or All-Clad's Copr Chef series.

When you buy copper on eBay, ALWAYS look at the rivets, as they can give you a huge clue. Copper rivets usually mean a tin lining, silver-colored rivets are either stainless (meaning a stainless lining) or aluminum (meaning an aluminum pot that's been electroplated).

Granted, I may be wrong, and you'll be able to tell if you simply take a bit of sandpaper to the top edge of one of the pots. If you only see a thin line of copper and a much thicker silver-colored wall on the inside, they're probably aluminum.

[quint]

Did your pans have a small logo on the bottom of them? There was a manufacturer based in Monteral called Coventry Copper that made a nickel lined group of pans. They were heavy and had brass handles with no rivets.

[E_M]

This is one of the most informative threads I've read here.

[ApartmentDweller]

I second that!! Highly educational discussion.

Does anyone have an opinion about Baumalu (made in Alsace) 2-mm-thick hammered tin-lined cookware with cast iron handles? There are several vendors on E-Bay selling sets of them.

[FlyFish]

I see the sales on Baumalu as well, and I've always wondered about it, so I hope someone can jump in here and educate both of us. I have a few Mauviel pieces in the 2-mm thick line that's was discontinued some time back, and they cook just as well as the thicker (2.5 to 3.5-mm thickness) pieces that I have.

[ApartmentDweller]

This is the Baumalu site (they also sell on E-bay at slightly higher prices; one set I looked at was $3 more on E-bay, so we are talking minimal differerence):

http://www.french-only.com/onlineshop...

Someone on another forum mentioned PLACEMENT OF THE HANDLES. They said they preferred the handles to be riveted up higher on the side of the pot rather than lower, closer to the heat source.

Taking another look at the Baumalus, it appears that the handle placement varies, at least with the three pieces pictured here. Hmmmm..... Makes me wonder. The more expensive pieces that I've been looking at seem to have handle/rivets up higher rather than lower.

[ApartmentDweller]

Does anyone know how THICK the TIN layer should be?

According to this review, the 0.5-mm tin layer on these Baumalus wore down rather quickly, but the author admits that he may have been a little rough on the lining.

http://flyingsaucier.blogspot.com/200...

Any comments about how thick the tin should be?

[ApartmentDweller]

Here is some UNhammered Baumalu cookware.

Are the weights listed in concordance with what you guys recommend?

http://cgi.ebay.com/BAUMALU-Copper-Sa...

[Chemicalkinetics]

Apartment,

These are heavy pans, so they will distribute the heat nicely. For some reasons, that looks more like a saucepan than a saute pan. I guess I always imagine a saute pan to be much flatter. You know, like a frying pan. Anyway, why are you getting a copper cookware? Copper does distribute heat better than aluminum, but not by tons. Copper also get tarnished easily which means you have to clean it often if you like that copper shiny look.

Anyway, $99 for one copper cookware is a good deal. So which one are you considering? The pot or the pan?

Please also keep in mind, that copper cookware will not work on an induction cooktop if you ever consider that.

[ApartmentDweller]

Hi Chemical,

Yeah, I'm aware of the high maintenance and the limitations. But I have an allergy to nickel so need to minimize my exposure to stainless, and my saucepans need replacing so I am going tin-lined copper.

Right now I am agonizing over hammered look versus flat finish. The former would go better with my casual decor (I live relatively near the southern border and have a lot of hammered Mexican pieces), but the latter would afford more options. Unfortunately it doesn't appear that Baumalu makes stockpots or bain maries, two pieces that I *must* have in copper, so I may just go with the smooth finish. Decisions, decisions...

[FlyFish]

I have two iron-handled tin-lined copper sautoirs that are approximately the size of the one in the ebay listing for Baumalu.

The first is 9.5" X 3" X 3-mm thick; it weights 6 lbs, 2oz. The second is 8.75" X 2.5" X 2.75" thick and weighs 5 lbs, 1 oz. Based on that, and allowing for likely differences in the size and shape of the iron handle, (and without getting into the mathematics to calculate how many cubic whatevers of copper we're talking about), I'd say the Baumalu sautoir (9" X 3" X 2.0-mm; 5 lbs, 7 oz) is pretty much where it should be weight-wise.

As I've mentioned elsewhere in this thread, I have a few pieces of 2.0-mm thick copper in a couple different shapes, and they all cook just fine.

[ApartmentDweller]

Hi FlyFish,

I appreciate your taking the time to post those dimensions.

Thus far everything that I've read about Baumalu pieces (including on other cooking forums) has been positive, so I don't think one can go wrong there.

Thanks again!!

[FlyFish]

I've never given a great deal of thought to the thickness of the tin, but based on various scratches and other insults I've given my tin-lined copper over the years, which inadvertently revealed the thickness of the tin, 0.5-mm actually seems quite thick to me.

ETA: Not sure why this ended up where it did - it was intended to be a response to ApartmentDweller's question (a few posts above) about the thickness of tin linings.

[ApartmentDweller]

0.5 is THICK?!! Good!!!

Thank you!!!

[VaFrank]

Two other sources for retinning:

http://www.eastcoasttinning.com/

http://www.rockymountainretinning.com/

I've used East Coast, they're in Rhode Island, and I'd use them again; nice people and they do good work.

And I've heard the same about Rocky Mountain Retinning.

One advantage to retinning is that you might end up with a bit more tin than your pan had originally, since some new pans are factory electroplated rather than hand wiped.

[deeznuts]

Rocky mountain also sells a reasonably priced, 3mm thick set of four sauce pots for $260, or $340 with lids.

http://www.rockymountainretinning.com...

[dmach]

I am reading this thread as it appears I am not the only one weighing stainless versus tin lining on copper issue. Seems tin wins for tradition with some non stick benefit while stainless might be for real world use--by that I mean someone other than the purchaser/owner of the pot uses it. There apparently are a lot of dumb wives and husbands that will ruin a tin lined pot through abuse and misuse. So being a traditionalist and a do it yourselfer with some copper plumbing coupled with bullet molding experience, my question is--Has anyone tried retinning their own pots? The materials are cheap and the process straight forward.

[VaFrank]

dmach,

Retinning copper cookware is a rather more involved process than sweating some copper tubing. First, you have to melt out the old tin, then superclean the copper -- a dilute solution of sulfuric acid and an abrasive such as pumice are often used for this -- then apply some flux, then heat the pan to 250C or so, melt in some new tin and then wipe it around evenly with a rag that has some flux on it. Not rocket science, perhaps, but don't expect great results without a fair amount of trial and error. Tinsmithing is considered a skilled trade, after all.

But, hey, go for it; if you don't like how it looks you can always start over, and if you're reasonably handy and not afraid of heat and molten metal (do this outdoors unless you have a blacksmith shop!), there's no reason you couldn't eventually get pretty adept at it. Maybe there's a sideline business in there for you.

[dmach]

Thanks VaFrank. I think I will experiment with some worn out pieces I see on Ebay for $10. If it is a total failure, I will have some cool hanging targets for those cast (tin/lead) bullets. I do have a concern in that my girlfriend cooks everthing at welding temperatures and the tin will flow out of the pan with the eggs. (She's cute though).

[Chemicalkinetics]

Dmach,

I like th part that you said your girlfriend cooks at welding temperature so the melted tin will come out with the eggs, and then you quickly follow up with "She is cute though". To be honest, I have to agree with you. A cute girlfriend will make everything alright.

[VaFrank]

Definitely keep the cute girlfriend, but store the good cookware in the closet until a) you break up with her, or b) you're still together but you've brought her to a better understanding of tools and materials.

I'm an optimist so I'm hoping for b); this can be a win/win.

[dmach]

Thanks for the support and advice. Working on b). Though it does remind me of the incident when she used my Stiletto titanium head framing hammer ($$$) for a pickaxe. She's cute, but that hammer was beautiful.

[David A. Goldfarb]

Also, a material called "whiting" (I'm not exactly sure what this is) is applied to the outside of the cookware to prevent tin from adhering to the outside.

When I've seen pots being retinned, the worker was holding a large tin ingot and applying it to the fluxed and heated inside of the pot.

[elmbow]

Hi, new user here and I arrived at this post quite by accident, but after reading through ALL of the replies to your original post, I don't think I saw one mention of the very specific reason I own and use tinned copper pans and that is precisely because the tin "seasons" much like cast iron does and it essentially becomes a non stick surface. I don't boil water in copper pans, for heaven's sake, alum and ss work fine for that, but when it comes to low heat sauteing, NOTHING compares to tinned copper IMHO. Of course, my tinned copper never sees a metal utensil nor soapy water. I've got an 8" crepe pan, bought in France in 1969, no name, but it is due for tinning and will be going to Rocky Mountain soon. I hope they do a good job, as that pan was the reason for each of my kids' getting chased around the kitchen more than once. Grandkids are getting those lessons now as they learn proper care for quality cookware.

[MarkinScottsdale]

We've got a large collection of copper cookware. Some old, some new. All together we have maybe 30 pieces of it. Most of it is tinned. We use them as needed, keep the outside cleaned and polished three or four times a year, and when the tin lining gets a little spotty, we send it out for re-tinning. The cost ranges from 30 to 90 dollars per pot and includes the lid if they need it. While not cheap, we usually on do three or four pieces every year or so. If you are willing to put up with cleaning copper, then the cost of a re-tin job is negligible and if you're careful, you'll only need to do it once every ten years or so per pot. The other thing is we've found lots of copper at yard sales and garage sales, and bought hand-hammered heavy french pots (like Williams Sonoma used to sell for $500 and up per pot!) and got them for ten or twenty dollars (sometimes less) and then send those out for relining. The places we send them to (listed below) knock out the dents, straighten the lids, and generally refurbish them to like new condition as part of their service. They even replace rivets on handles if needed! WELL worth the money. To see a $10 garage sale find come back looking like a $1200 dollar pot is AMAZING. I've got a few pieces of copper lined with stainless steel. No maintenance, but they are NOT the same. If you're a serious cook, use the real stuff and bite the bullet on relining it every few years. You'll ultimately be glad you did. These things are nearly indestructible and can be passed on to future generations if you want to. Given the cost of new ones - if you can buy them at any price today - it's worth taking care of the existing ones!

[jenniferking99]

Is it safe to put a tin-lined copper pot in the broiler? From what I've heard, tin melts at 460 degrees F and the broiler is about 500-550 F... but does the pan actually reach that temp?

[bsouthwi]

I had this exact question. I wanted to use a copper au gratin pan to broil whole fish, but am worried about 1) salt 2) citrus 3) high heat of the broiler. Anybody know if using copper, lined with tin in the broiler is okay?

[David A. Goldfarb]

Salt and citrus are okay with tin lined copper, presuming you can't see any copper through the lining. High heat close to the broiler isn't a good idea, however. Better to use a different pan. The whole pan probably won't reach that temperature, but you might get a little tin melting around the rim close to the fire.

One thing to bear in mind is that tin melting isn't the end of the world. If you overheat a pan, the tin will pool around the perimeter usually. It will make the bottom less smooth and maybe a bit harder to clean, and the pan will need retinning sooner, but you can still use the pan.

[vikingwoman]

Just thought I might add my experience. My copper pots and pans are 110 years old French copper and bought them about 40 years ago. I cook on them every day. I always use the just right heat ; as low as possible. Bamboo tools and for the past 15 years silicon. They have never been re tinned. I also never leave a pan on the heat except for a few second before the food goes in.
Hope this helps,

[mineralhead]

Silver lined copper pans and teapots were quite common in Europe at one time. Flea markets are full of copper teapots that are silver lined. Turkey and the mid eastern countries make millions of copper teapots and pans also.

I have noted most of the discussion on many forums not just this one centers around which metal is the best conductor. The pan itself is part of the nutrition. Copper itself is essential for forming blood protein and too much is made of covering small spots of copper lining. If you cooked with unlined copper daily for years, drank tea from the teapots daily, I suppose you could get what they call Wison's disease. I don't worry about it I drink from a copper beer mug, cook with unlined copper and use copper teapots.

The only metal recommended for infants is cast iron. The iron supplement is great for them. Most people are seriously deficient in iron and copper as well as brass silver and other minerals. You need them all.

What you do not need is the nickel from stainless steel, aluminum, teflon and other poisons used in making modern cookware. It is a serious indictment of the American educational system that almost nobody understands this. Parakeets placed next to teflon have died from the fumes only. If they are not doing it already some of the teflon will be nano particle which many scientists feel can affect DNA.

When you absorb too much aluminum it too is linked to alzheimers so I would have to say conductivity is the least of things I worry about when cooking. Silver is one of the best conductors along with copper. It also works that way in the human body as it is an electrical vehicle and also needs to transfer heat and electromagnetism.

Without getting into ayurvedic medicine or disciplines of yoga I will just say many of these things are known to other cultures but many parts of the west remain blissfully unaware of such topics. People are not falling over dead in the east due to heavy use of copper in cookware.

The royal families of Europe are quite known to dine using silver utensils. Prince Charles is said to have so much of the metal in his body most doctors will diagnose him with heavy metal poisoning. It is just my personal opinion but it seems to be something the ordinary rank and file should not trouble themselves with and continue cook with teflon and provide income to big pharma and the medical industry. If you are healthy you are no good to them.

Aluminum itself is used extensively at present and we see dramatic increases in autism. It is used in vacinations as well as thimersol mercury. There are two groups in America that do not experience autism, the Amish and the Muslims and they do not receive vaccinations. So I would think one would be concerned using aluminum cookware and things coated with teflon.

Bronze is another great metal for cooking but is extremely costly. It contains, copper, brass and a touch of gold at times in the better metals. I did bump into a 10 inch pan at a flea market, it was cast as one piece and very thick like cast iron. When the gentleman indicated he wanted $80.00 for it I almost broke my wrist reaching for the wallet. I suspect it is worth hundreds of dollars if you could even find one. It is probably made in China.

Copper incidentally becomes even more of a conductor when mixed with tin and it has the same effect in the human body. It is very good for you, so how a pot conducts heat is not near as important to me as the food value of the pot itself. Electric impulses need to be transferred in the body, up the spine and into the brain. Aluminum, nickel and teflon won't do this for you.

The Mauviel pots and some of the fancy stuff lined with stainless steel are worthless to me. You may as well buy a cheap stainless pot in my opinion if your only concern is the pot transferring heat to the food.

I might add that copper and silver inside the cells fight infection. There is no known virus or bacteria that can thrive in the presence of silver, copper also is very good in this respect, hence the popularity of colloidal silver in fighting infections. Many hospitals now actually use silver gauze on burn victims. The early settlers placed silver and copper coins in drinking water to keep it pure as they rode west in the wagons. We have come along way from this type common knowledge in my opinion.

[jw20000]

To add to your comments:
A few years ago I had a pharmaceutical company produce trial medications for specifically detoxifying heavy metal poisoning from the body. Each group targeted just one metal type. I personally tried these on myself over several years. Aluminum, Nickel, Cadmium, Lead, Arsenic, Copper, Mercury, etc. After my tests I stopped using all aluminum cookware or anything that would add aluminum to my diet. The medication eliminated anxiety and delivered a relative peaceful state of mind. I take a dose now every 3 weeks to remove aluminum accumulations that enter my body through the food chain. Acid rain makes the aluminum oxide in soil water soluble so that food plants can absorb that aluminum. The FDA has been notified by a research doctor who has tracked aluminum poisoning of the general population, but what can they do? Nothing.
I eliminated Stainless Steel cookware, tableware, everything I could after I tested the Nickel medication. The next day after every dose, my IQ of intelligence increased dramatically. It is scary how much Nickel poisoning affects your mental ability. When I switched to Le Creuset porcelain pots food suddenly tasted "Clean", Fresh. Stainless Steel tastes metallic with the 18% Nickel concentration that is typical. Nickel IS Poisonous. I use Sterling Silver and Titanium Flatware. Even Silver Plated flatware is fairly safe compared to Stainless Steel. A Stainless spoon in your mouth has an awful metallic taste when you stop using it compared to Titanium(inert) and Sterling (90% silver/10% copper).. Guess why tin lined copper pots seem to yield wonderful food TASTE? Tin is nearly inert on the galvanic corrosion table. Titanium, Silver, Gold, Platinum are fully safe and non-reactive. Cathodic metals with a positive charge typically destroy bacteria which is why silverware has protected wealthy families for centuries. http://www.thelenchannel.com/1galv.php

[bobluhrs]

Interesting about tin. I know it makes better finish on fried or sauteed foods. I use it too, because of the sticking is just right. Too little and you get no gravy, too much and you get chucks of food and burnt bits. Tin-lined copper is just right.

bob

[bobluhrs]

copper, hmm thinking about making some rods to insert into a roasting chicken to cook the insides better, wondered if it's safe, or what.

silver can kill germs outside the body, but not much when gets inside, unfortunately. there's a new silver "silver sol" which is actually ag404, and seems to stay active inside the body. would like more people to test that, but it has improved cd4 for 7 of 7 patients in an hiv study.

aluminum was de-coupled from Alzheimer's, the disease attracts the aluminum not other way around. What has been linked is herpes simplex 1 with Alzheimer's..definite.
bob

[jw20000]

I really don't know if bare copper would be safe with Chicken. It is not recommended for all foods which is why copper pans are lined. The best way around this is to just buy some sterling silver butter knives and stick them into the chicken. Silver has a higher heat conductivity than copper. The sterling knives are available from antique stores and ebay. Forget the stainless bladed sterling dinner knives. You can hold a stainless rod and torch the end to 1500 degrees without getting burned. In metal working, we liken stainless steel to an insulator.

[bobluhrs]

yes, I found a note somewhere that a professor contends that copper is ok so long as it does not form verdegris (corrosion) that green stuff. Sugar is heated in copper, and then spun, also egg whites are whipped in copper. I even have a jam bowl made of unlined copper, which seems to me taking a chance on the acid in the fruit, but they are still used. One French lady I studied cooking with had several ancient copper baking dishes with a lot of the tin rubbed off, and she said as long as no tomato sauce or acidic dishes are prepared in it, it's fine. Hmph.

[li12345]

very good thread. lots of information.
I have several baumalu pots and pans, cooked on them for about 2y. well, it was at first with electric stove (it was the last of it, bought dsl re-branded professional gas range, now things are a lot better, I can cook on my copper, never going to electric range again unless it is a porto-induction cook top :)). I found one thing so, electric stove was capable of bending my copper baumalu, well was thankful I was able to return-replace the pot and I did replace my stove 2-3 weeks after that.

Have a question. I came across 3 paul revere copper pots, that appear to be new paul revere limited edition copper made at Oneonta AL plant.
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeoywo4/th...
the reference does not exactly say if it is stainless steel lined copper or copper clad (not interested :)).
Does anyone have anything to say about them? the seller stated it is 2mm copper.
Has also some culinox copper pans (swiss?), stainless lined.
does anyone has any experience with them?
handles are brass (I know, indication of more of a table top maybe, but in 2mm copper should be ok).
thanks for the replies in advance

[Capitol Chef]

Falk Copper Casserole 5.5 qt on Ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...

[Delucacheesemonger]

FWIW, always used tinned pans, never had need of retinning. All were French and used and one needing tinning was done by Batchelier at Clignancourt in Paris when l bought it. Still shiny and perfect.

[blue room]

Here is what "Cooking for Engineers" has posted about cookware materials.
http://www.cookingforengineers.com/ar...
(Scroll down a bit to get to copper.) It seems pretty clear that copper lined with tin is a good thing!