480818 Fri Jan 18 15:09:01 -0800 2008 137 29 Not About Food 0 3309891 I keep seeing pictures everywhere of beautifully prepared and plated food, and then the table is set wrong! In magazines, on TV, on the web, all over the place and it’s happening more and more lately. Does this bug anyone else? Drives me nuts. So I’ve been wondering about it. Where do people learn this stuff? Maybe they don’t teach it in school any more. I’ve even wondered whether they teach it in culinary schools, because I’ve seen some major goofs on their websites too. All of this started me thinking about all of the people here who cook great food, but it may never have occurred to them to go any farther than to emulate what they see in one of these gorgeous pictures of gorgeous food with the table set wrong. So for anyone interested, I offer the following: I’ve Googled the web thoroughly for "place settings", "place covers", and “how to set a table properly”. The amount of misinformation available on the web today is mind boggling, but the URL below is pretty close to being spot on. Just don’t think your table isn’t properly set if you don’t have sterling water goblets. These folks are just trying to sell more of what they sell. So I offer a bit more useful information based on U.S. tradition. Since we have so many travelers and people who live in other countries with us, remember that traditions and customs vary from country to country so this may not apply to you. For the sake of a common language, let’s start here: http://www.westernsilver.com/place_settings.html 1. As I said, the above URL is a starting point. The thing they forgot to mention about a formal place setting (they have it wrong!) is that a formal place setting NEVER properly includes a bread and butter plate or a butter spreader. Yup. It sounds really strange, but tradition dictates that you only get a b&b plate for informal occasions. If it's black tie for guests and the table, then you put your bread on the tablecloth. And now you know why God created crumb trays. 2. For formal occasions, the dinner napkin is always folded and placed down the center of the dinner plate unless the first course is to be in place when people are seated, in which case it goes to the left of the forks and no embellishment, such as napkin rings or fancy folds are used. The standard fold for a dinner napkin is spread it open (iron if necessary), then fold in half to form a rectangle, then fold that to form a square, and finally fold the square into a smaller rectangle. That’s it! The napkin is then placed down the center of the plate, folded side to the right, However, if the first course will be on the plate when guests are seated, then the napkin goes to the left of the forks, folded side toward the plate. Do not place the napkin on the plate and then the first course on top of it. This may look attractive, but guests should not be required to move china and food to retrieve napkins. And the same is true of placing forks on the napkin. Everything should be immediately accessible to guests without requiring them to disassemble and reassemble their place setting. Finally, never use a napkin ring for a formal dinner. Napkin rings are for family dinner tables when the napkins may be washed only after several uses. For informal meals you're free to be as creative with napkin folding as you like. Fan folds. origami folds, blossom folds in the water goblet. Whatever appeals to you. 3. Both wine glasses and silverware should be placed in their order of use, with the exception of the salad fork. Forks always go to the left of the dinner plate, and when the smaller salad fork is to the left of the larger dinner fork, that indicates it is to be used for the starter course. When it is between the dinner fork and the dinner plate that indicates it is a salad fork even though many Americans, unlike Europeans, serve salad before the main course. 4. If a desert spoon and fork are part of the place cover, they should go above the plate. But today's for-the-home dining tables are getting smaller and smaller -- along with the size of dining rooms -- so it will probably mean a less crowded table if you just bring in the dessert silver in with the desert. It’s the same with cups and saucers. While it is proper in some circumstances to include them in a place cover, unless you live in Hearst Castle with dining tables the size of a small ice skating rink, chances are you'll be really crowding your table. 5. FYI: There is a difference between "luncheon size" and "dinner size" (larger) flatware. There is also a difference between European dinner size (larger still) and American dinner size. If you are investing in sterling, be sure you clarify what size you want. It is always best to buy the larger dinner size as it's acceptable on all occasions, whereas the smaller luncheon size is frowned upon for a formal dinner. There was a time (about a century ago) when a “proper” home included sterling service of luncheon and dinner size, as well as every specialized piece of individual utensils known to man. The Victorians thrived on such things. In today's world, starting with a five piece place setting is pretty much the norm for flatware. In those times, twenty piece sterling silver place settings were not uncommon. But they had butlers to polish it! 6. Before you buy your "good" flatware, think about what pieces you want so you can choose a pattern that has them all available. Also think realistically about how you cook and entertain. Flatware pieces still in common use for formal/informal occasions today (in their most frequent placement) include: Hors d'ouvre ("starter") fork Fish fork Salad fork (also doubles as dessert fork except in formal sterling services where there will be a slight difference between the two) Dinner fork Dinner plate separates forks on the left from knives and spoons on the right Dinner knife Fish knife Butter spreader Ice tea spoon Cream soup spoon (round bowl) Bouillon spoon (oval bowl, also doubles as dessert spoon except in formal sterling services) Tea spoon Demitasse spoon. Cocktail/oyster fork A teaspoon is not normally part of a place cover, except at family meals when coffee or tea will be served. For formal and informal non-family occasions they are brought in with the coffee/tea service. The cocktail/oyster fork is the only fork that is ever placed on the right side of the dinner plate, and then it is the last utensil farthest from the plate. While you see it in photographs frequently, desert forks and spoons are best left to be brought in with dessert rather than placed above the dinner plate. And anytime you feel confused as to what fork to use or what to do with something, just follow whatever the hostess does. Things a formal sterling service may include that I've never seen available in stainless steel patterns are grapefruit spoons, ice cream forks, and other fancy things that are seldom used today. Some things that are available and fun to have and that don't normally match your flatware pattern are escargot tongs and forks, lobster/crab crackers, lobster/crab picks, etc. Dime store nut crackers and nut picks work just fine on both lobsters and crabs. And then there are special caviar spoons, usually made out of mother of pearl, and rarely available with silver hollowware handles to match a sterling pattern. In today's world, there are stainless steel patterns that are available in the larger European size, as well as patterns that offer butter spreaders, cocktail forks, iced tea spoons, and other special service flatware pieces. There is also gold finished flatware available today that is dishwasher safe, though none of the patterns I've seen to date offer butter spreaders or cocktail forks and such. 7. Dinner knives. If you've checked out the diagram at the website above, you know the dinner knife goes immediately to the right of the dinner plate, sharp edge toward the plate. I know. It looks more symmetrical and better balanced aesthetically with the sharp edge away from the plate, but unbreakable tradition says you don't want to do that. Knife edge toward the plate is an unspoken pledge by the host to his guests that no knives will be drawn or blood let during the meal. It's a tradition worth keeping. 8. In European place settings, and this is strictly an FYI thing, the flatware is usually placed "face down," especially in France, and the wine glasses are spread in a straight line above the plate in order of use from left to right, even if there will be nine wines with dinner. If you have a table big enough, it makes a lovely display. 9. Glasses: In the U.S., the water goblet is placed above the dinner knife, and wine glasses go to the right of it in order of use. There's a general rule of thumb in this country that you never place more than three of anything on the table at one time, including forks, spoons, and wine goblets. If you’re serving both a white and red wine with dinner, that makes three glasses counting the water goblet. However, it is acceptable to put the champagne glass above and between the water goblet and red wine goblet where it will be in easy reach after previous courses are cleared. 10. China service. It's always smart to buy an "open stock" pattern, which means the company doesn’t plan on discontinuing it any time soon (but it never hurts to ask if any plans are in the works before you buy your first place setting). Open stock also means you can buy just one saucer or plate if one gets broken. About the only tricky thing it helps to know about in fine china is in regard to soup bowls. There are two styles. The rimmed shallow type often called a “soup plate,” and a cream soup bowl, which is shaped more like a cup with little feet under it and handles on each side. Some even come with a lid and saucer. 11. Place cards are hand lettered and placed on top of the napkin or in a place card holder above the dinner plate. 12. Salts and Peppers. For formal and formally informal meals, small salt and pepper shakers or cellars may be placed individually above each place setting, but in the interest of less cluttered tabletops, it's more usual to set a pair to be shared by each two diners. And finally, a word about centerpieces and candles. There is nothing more annoying than getting up from the table after a nice conversation with the person seated across from you and not having a clue as to what he looks like! Keep centerpieces low enough that guests can see each other clearly, and the same for candles. Five arm candelabras may be lovely, but if they prevent people from seeing each other comfortably, use another candleholder. If you're interested in learning more about the subject, my favorite book is "Table Settings, Entertaining, and Etiquette" by Patricia Easterbrook Roberts. The book is unfortunately out of print, but you can order used copies here: http://tinyurl.com/28rfla. They range in price from $4.20 to over $150. Go for the $4.20 copies! It's a small coffee table book with lots of interesting facts and drop dead gorgeous photographs. There are lots of other books on table setting available too. And I sincerely hope I haven't stepped on anyone's toes by posting this. My intent is to share the joy of presenting hard work in the kitchen with all the love and respect it deserves in the dining room. Caroline Fri Jan 18 15:09:01 -0800 2008 112096 Caroline1 1 3310219 Very interesting - good stuff! Thanks for posting. I am a big fan of buying old old hospitality or etiquette books off of Ebay and reading about how things used to be - different types of service, etc. It makes a meal all the better to have it presently nicely (not necessarily the squiggle on the plate thing or stacked food). Let's bring elegance back! Fri Jan 18 16:52:01 -0800 2008 3309891 83423 TwoPointers 1 3310241 Sorry, but I must say that I am ever so thankful that I grew up in a Chinese household. Chopsticks, soup spoons, that's it for the most part. Communal eating/family style. I think that when eating, the most important thing, besides the food, is the company/conversation. Fri Jan 18 16:57:04 -0800 2008 3309891 77080 justagthing 2 3311390 Amen. Sat Jan 19 08:06:33 -0800 2008 3310241 12045 gloriousfood 2 3315254 =) Me, too. But there are some unbelievably convoluted rules about chopsticks placement, how to pass and accept food, and all that good stuff, too. No culture is immune. Sun Jan 20 17:32:06 -0800 2008 3310241 64215 cimui 2 3327850 Try being left-handed and holding your chopsticks crossed, which is apparently taboo for some Asians. My mother used to be slightly embarrassed, but really, I need to eat somehow. A Japanese-American buddy of mine was nagged about it so much that he avoids chopsticks whenever possible. It goes back to the whole "hold one stick like you would a pen" thing. I hold my pens differently than righties, so my chopstick-holding ends up different, too. The food gets into my mouth with a minimum of mess, so I'm happy. Cimui's right: no culture is immune. With that said, I found Caroline's post interesting. I haven't a clue on how to set a Western table properly and I do believe that that kind of information is important. No, we're not going to have a formally set table every single day, but at least we'll know how it's supposed to look like if the occasion ever requires it. Edited to add: I meant to reply to cimui, not justathing... sorry! Thu Jan 24 09:29:22 -0800 2008 3310241 93901 geekyfoodie 3 3328004 Oh, good Lord! Who sets a formal table every day? That's not the way anyone lives. But within your culture - Asian, Western, etc. - you have to lay out the utensils you're going to eat with and it's not any harder to place them properly than it is to slap them on the table any old way. Then it becomes automatic to do the simple things properly. Adding anything more complicated when you have guests isn't so challenging. My kids were responsible for setting the table from the time they could reach it. We had some pretty creative place settings for a few years but they got the basics right and enjoyed the time in the kitchen with us, participating in meal prep. This was just plates, knives and forks, glasses for milk and napkins, but they knew where they were supposed to go - the same places that formal things go at a fancy dinner. They really loved it if we let them light candles. Calmed down the whole dinner scene. No arguing. Thu Jan 24 10:02:53 -0800 2008 3327850 32444 MakingSense 4 3328168 Sorry, MakingSense, but perhaps you misunderstood my post? I did say that we're *not* going to have a formal table everyday, but the info is good to know when we do need it. Anyhoo, it is true that it doesn't require any more effort to neatly lay out utensils vs. tossing them on the table. For Asians, at least, Justathing has a point in that there's much fewer utensils to work with, so there isn't as much to remember when it comes to what goes where. Thu Jan 24 10:35:03 -0800 2008 3328004 93901 geekyfoodie 5 3328432 You open another interesting question: how do you set a table for dinner menu that includes some dishes that would be eaten with chopsticks (maybe an appetizer) and others using Western flatware? Perhaps sushi followed by chicken served with an Asian-inspired glaze. Thu Jan 24 11:26:34 -0800 2008 3328168 32444 MakingSense 6 3328477 Interesting, indeed! I haven't a clue, but I can tell you what we'd do at home. If we're having a formal meal, we'll do the whole set-up Chinese-style and include the necessary Western flatware next to the chopsticks. For your example, the absolute minimum would be a fork and a knife, so they would be neatly placed next to the chopsticks. Thu Jan 24 11:38:50 -0800 2008 3328432 93901 geekyfoodie 1 3310772 No, It does not bug me in the least. Fri Jan 18 20:49:33 -0800 2008 3309891 13550 King of Northern Blvd 2 4041358 Me either. I could care less. Wed Sep 17 06:52:11 -0700 2008 3310772 98208 Orchid64 1 3310837 I wouldn't want any friends who would lose their appetite if I didn't toss the bread directly on the tablecloth. Fri Jan 18 21:28:11 -0800 2008 3309891 55316 mpalmer6c 1 3310901 My god, if I sat at a table so meticulously set with a host(ess) to whom this kind of thing is important (to the point that a misstep would drive him/her nuts), I'd be afraid to move anything! My table manners are better than the average bear's, but this is way, way, WAY over the top IMHO. It doesn't look like I'll ever be hosting a truly formal affair... Fri Jan 18 22:24:54 -0800 2008 3309891 13700 ricepad 2 3310971 Where did I say it would drive me nuts if a GUEST in my house used the wrong fork or blew his nose in the dinner napkin? I might throw the napkin away later, but I would NEVER comment on a guest's table manners, unless he or she was doing something terribly offensive to another guest. What I did say is that it drives me nuts when I see photos published by entities that SHOULD know better in which the table is set wrong, such as cooking schools. That's a whole different thing than an individual who has never had or taken the opportunity to learn current formal and informal table setting. My (failed) intention was to offer information for anyone who might be interested simply because there seems to be so much misinformation around. You know, like it or not, we are all judged every day. You guys are being just as judgemental of me as you think I am being of anyone who doesn't set the table according to tradition. We are all judged/evaluated every time we meet a new person; everytime we make a loan or mortgage application; every time we go for a job interview; every time we meet a friend's family. And whether we like it or not, in many of those situations we are judged by whether (or not) we slurp when we eat soup or use the wrong spoon. That's life. But I do regret the number of you who are taking offense. That was never my intent. Fri Jan 18 23:52:35 -0800 2008 3310901 112096 Caroline1 3 3311142 relax caroline. i am always amazed at the number of people who did not sit down to dinner as a family with even a minimally set table (knife and spoon on the right, one fork on the left, whatever glass(es) above the knife and spoon, and (paper) napkin on the left. for those whom dinner was grab it all out of the cupbord and drawer, pile on the food and go sit in front of the TV, all the info above is overwhelming. Sat Jan 19 06:00:04 -0800 2008 3310971 57890 KaimukiMan 4 3311158 Seems to me that as Caroline explained, she's not talking about people eating at home particularly, but seeing photos of table settings in magazines etc. - presumably done by professionals - that are done incorrectly - and then provides us all with information that may be interesting and useful to some, and not to others of us, which as far as I can tell is true of many threads on the boards. Sat Jan 19 06:08:31 -0800 2008 3311142 10985 MMRuth 3 3311280 When you wrote your OP, you knew that you would get postings that may be negative. Now, you can call it judging, but at the same time, it is just another one's opinion, just as the post is of your opinion. I do not agree with your opinion myself, but you are allowed to have your opinion and own ideas as we each are. So relax, your post is interesting and people are reading it, wasn't that your point? Sat Jan 19 07:28:32 -0800 2008 3310971 77080 justagthing 3 3312272 I think your post read as an interesting, informative look at table setting. It did not sound judgmental, etc. There is a tendency on boards for folks to skim postings & quickly offer opinions without reading with discernment. Often those responses are inappropriate & harsh. Civil difference of opinion & debate is good. Judgmental condemnation is not helpful. I always enjoy your thoughtful & well written posts - please keep participating! Sat Jan 19 13:41:20 -0800 2008 3310971 111267 meatn3 4 3312318 Thanks to you and all for the words of encouragement. Last night I was stunned (and in a bit of pain) over the totally unexpected reactions. I never meant it as judgemental, but only to try to compensate in some small way for the misinformation coming from presumably reliable sources. So glad some of you did understnad my intent. Thank you! Sat Jan 19 14:00:44 -0800 2008 3312272 112096 Caroline1 2 3318473 I'm with Caroline. All rules of etiquette, including the proper setting a tables is based on what would make people feel most comfortable (e.g. placing the knife sharp-side in toward the plate to avoid cutting the diner ... or folding the napkin with the folded side to the left so that the majority of guests who are right-handed can take a loose corner and easily unfold it and put it on their laps). Once you begin to really read those "rules" and the reasons behind them, it all makes perfect sense and are based on consideration for others. I guess, like Caroline, I do think that a properly set table, among other things, says a lot about who we are. Most people will never notice, but I know I have done the right thing. What my guests do at my table is their business and not for me to judge. Mon Jan 21 17:26:38 -0800 2008 3310901 24468 chicgail 1 3311221 No, it doesn't bug me. But it is a subject that always interests me first, because it was of interest to my mother who taught me how to set a table as soon as I was tall enough to be able to reach it and second, because it tells me something about the history of food and dining. I have a small dining table and modern stainless and dinnerware, so I do what works for me and don’t worry about it. But I enjoy reading about it nonetheless. A few things my mother taught me: The folded napkin is placed not only so that the fold is to the right, but also so that the loose, unfolded corners are to the upper left, making it easier to pick up the napkin and unfold it onto your lap with your right hand. If you have individual salt and peppers, and I do because my parents (amateur silversmiths) made a set for me, they are placed above the forks and plates and centered between them. The pepper shaker goes on the left and the salt cellar on the right with the salt spoon placed horizontally in front of them with the handle to the left and the bowl to the right. The dessert service is brought to the table with the finger bowl, which is always placed on a doily. The diner removes the dessert service from the finger-bowl plate and places the utensils on either side of the plate. If you place a dessert fork and spoon above the dinner plate, which, by the way, indicates that a finger bowl will not be presented, the fork is above, handle to the left, with the spoon below, handle to the right. I’m not here to argue any of this or even to pretend that I slavishly follow it. I just find it all very entertaining, in the same way I find the menu of a formal 19th century meal entertaining despite the fact that I’m never, ever, going to try to reproduce it. Sat Jan 19 06:54:14 -0800 2008 3309891 11407 JoanN 2 3311855 Interesting! MY mother taught me the same thing about the napkin EXCEPT she insisted that the unfolded corners be to the LOWER left. I think the reasoning is the same, but I think Mom felt the lower corner was closer and easier to reach (by one napkin length). I still comment on that to my wife, who is really not into that level of detail, and then listen to the 'anal, anal, anal' thing. It's funny..... she's right, but it's something I know I'll always be aware of. In our house there's also an automatic reference to my Mom every time anyone even suggests the idea of bringing a condiment, salad dressing, milk, or whatever to the table in it's original container..... at ANY meal. She always insisted on transferring to a piece of tableware. We don't really enforce that one since Mom passed away, but we always think of her when it happens. Sat Jan 19 11:07:09 -0800 2008 3311221 11405 Midlife 3 3312330 I intentionally glossed over the part about where the open corner of the napkin should go because all I could remember from my home economics classes was that the diner should be able to pick up the napkin corner and have the napkin fall naturally across his lap. When I tried to check it out on the web, few places mentioned it, and those that did were in conflict. Ah well. I guess people can tell I'm old enough that when I was young, I used to have to worry about whether my seams were straight. '-) Sat Jan 19 14:05:56 -0800 2008 3311855 112096 Caroline1 4 4045030 My HomeEx teachers (in early 60s) said unfolded corners on the lower left also. Thu Sep 18 12:32:46 -0700 2008 3312330 14515 Stephanie Wong 1 3311871 While I cna't bring myself to go to the extremes above, I have to admit to an OCD like obsession with having things match. I have enough table and glassware to cover the max I can seat in my dining room. It may only get used once or twice a year but I don't have to fill out my placesettings with Flintstone jelly jar glasses. None of my guests would be freaked by a fork or napkin out of place, most of them wouldn't notice. Sat Jan 19 11:12:46 -0800 2008 3309891 10784 Scrapironchef 1 3312206 As jfood has stated many times, meals are about the company first and the food second. These "rules" do not even move the meter in jfood-land. Jfood likes a well set table, and has some guidance when setting a table, but these seem way over the top. And to the OP question does it bug jfood when he sees this in a print ad? nope. jfood barely looks at print ads. Sat Jan 19 13:12:26 -0800 2008 3309891 11290 jfood 2 3312336 Jay, of course dinner companions are always formost! Who has said otherwise? I really feel like I have done a good job as cook and hostess when the afterdinner conversation goes on until two or three in the morning. Love it! And a fun way to learn a lot of new things. Sat Jan 19 14:08:47 -0800 2008 3312206 112096 Caroline1 3 3312351 couldn't agree more C. Sat Jan 19 14:15:02 -0800 2008 3312336 11290 jfood 1 3312376 I thought this post was fascinating. It's interesting to learn about rituals (and their rules) which have fallen almost completely out of use. I'm curious to know more about the type of people who are able to keep such things alive. I have a hard enough time trying to get a timely RSVP out of most of my friends. All of this detail would be completely lost on them. To the OP, on what kinds of occasions do you set a table (and cook a meal!) this formally? Sat Jan 19 14:24:01 -0800 2008 3309891 35158 keslacye 2 3312485 Interesting questions, and I can only answer for myself. I do think much of my love for detail comes from my lifelong involvement in art. I won my first art competition at age five, and studied formally and informally for about the next... Well, I guess you never really stop studying things that interest you. It just becomes "second nature." And this plays into my lifelong interest in table settings. My mother, bless her heart, was a "slap it on any old way" cook. Yet all of the rest of the family -- aunts, uncles, grandparents, family friends -- all set their tables with care and proper placement. And it looked so lovely! But at home, I would get knots in my stomach when my mother would put out five different china patterns, much of it chipped pottery, and mismatched silverware when we had really lovely china and silver she refused to use! Bugged me. But in another thread somewhere on these boards, I have also relayed the true tale of my mother kidnapping my lovely Christmas goose stuffed with hand peeled chestnuts and Grand Marnier dressing, and taking it to her house to make goose tacos! Yup! That's my mom! Or was, RIP. When I was in junior high, it was required that we take one semester of cooking and one semester of sewing as "home economics." Not a bad plan. At least people learned how to feed themselves. And as part of those classes, we were taught how to set a table. My teacher's favorite mantra was, "It doesn't take any longer to set a table properly than it does to do it wrong." That stuck with me. Setting the table became as natural as putting oil in a frying pan. Then, when my first husband and I lived in Turkey, my first housekeeper vanished, absconding with two pieces of incredible jewelry and my best designer "little black dress." Happened while I was out of town for two weeks. In those days, you had to have a housekeeper because there was no commissary on base, and I was warned when I first arrived that the housekeeper had to go to the Turkish butcher shops for me if I ever wanted to eat meat again. LOL! We raised our own beef on occasion when I was growing up, but having a housekeeper is not an unattractive thing! So a dear Turkish friend who owned the three finest restaurant/supper clubs in town heard of my plight, and brought me his chef de cuisine as a housekeeper. Fatma had been with Sureya for about twenty years, and for the last three had been hounding him she was tired of cooking for the public and wanted to go into private service where she could cook more creatively. Have I mentioned that I have lived a charmed life? Fatma Ucal was fantastic! At the time, the only woman chef in all of Turkey. She was a master of French and Byzantine/Ottoman cuisine. And for three years she taught me how to cook! And she taught me that the table was the setting the food was presented in, so if you take pride in what you cook, you must also take pride in how you set your table. Made sense to me. Besides teaching me many classic dishes of both cuisines, Fatma also taught me how to create original dishes using basic techniques and premises from the classics. Consequently I don't use many recipes today. But I do still just automatically set the table the way I've been setting it all of my life. After so many years, some things just become second nature, like not wearing a sweater inside out, or brushing your teeth before you go to bed.... Or setting the table! As to what occasions I cook and set a meal "this formally?" I don't think of it as formal. But I do love using an egg cup if I have soft boiled eggs for breakfast for example, and placemats are always just a cupbaord away. There's an old saying, I think it originated in Japan, "You eat first with your eyes." I guess that appeals to the artist in me. Edit Note: But I am always hurt if guests misinterpret me doing my thing my way as a "competition." It just never occurs to me to judge or evaluate how other people do things, including setting their table. I'm always grateful and flattered that they think enough of me to invite me over and make a meal for me! I've had several chef friends in my life, and that's a common plight. None judge others based on how they cook or serve, but because they are good cooks, people rarely invite them for dinner. If people only knew! I guess in this case, it's "Always the bride and never the bridesmaid." Sat Jan 19 15:06:55 -0800 2008 3312376 112096 Caroline1 3 3312908 Yup Caroline1, you have mentioned that you have a blessed life and I am sure most of us on this board have wonderful lives too, however, there are those, like myself who live quite differently than you do. See, after spending many years as a kayak instructor/fitness professional/wilderness guide, I have really downsized my life (and now many of my friends have all my beautiful table settings and other formal dining goodies) and I no longer have traditional place settings-and I don't miss my formal ones AT ALL!!! Now, you'll find my tables set with small, beautiful cutting boards as plates for each guest, some lovingly handmade from people I've met on my travels, and strange little place settings and usually chopsticks since I have tons of chopsticks but not enough flatware to host more than 4 (and there are usually welcomed "unexpected guests".) SInce I've started hosting these informal "formal" sit down dinners, I have gotten the greatest honor of having some friends call and say: "I've stolen your idea for a beautiful table setting and got some little boards and my guests loved it". Y'a know, I've dinned at some of the finest restaurants and I do love all the attention to detail of a formal table setting, but a well thought out, considerately arranged table with great food and friends can be as awe inspiring as one who bought the whole package deal and followed the directions to the T. Sat Jan 19 18:18:42 -0800 2008 3312485 93485 tatertotsrock 4 3313215 You know, tatertotsrock, I'm amused at how many people, like you, assume that I live that way! Yes, I do put the fork on the left of a plate and knives and spoons on the right, but I don't have a cream soup spoon or footed cream soup bowl in the house! No sterling silver! And the closest thing I own to an oyster fork is a stainless steel pickle fork. I think I still remember how to play a tune or two on a piano (haven't tried in years!), but there is no piano in the house either. I do like your style of table setting and practice it myself on occasion. Creative table setting is a joy to behold, but I've run out of storage space so don't have as much on hand as I probably would if room wasn't an issue. I just don't feel I can freely dispose of much fine china and other family heirlooms. My grandson can do that someday, if he wishes, but there are things I feel I'm holding in trust. Assuming they don't get broken! When you cook creatively, creative table setting is just a natural progression. Sat Jan 19 21:01:10 -0800 2008 3312908 112096 Caroline1 1 3312484 My guess is that the reason we don't see formal settings in media is the mainstreaming of food and cooking. Magazines and cooking shows have an interest in making sure that they appeal to the widest possible audience rather than turn potential buyers off by traditions that may be intimidating to a wide swath of the population. Besides, this particular table setting tradition came out of the Victorian era. Wouldn't I be equally traditional if I choose to eat with just a knife and my fingers, ala Elizabethan England? Or chopsticks and soup spoons, as mentioned above? Why do we chose to honor (and perpetuate) one system over another? Personally, I appreciate a minimally set table that highlights the food and drink and experience. I learned all sorts of rules about table setting, both from my mother and from a cooking class I took in high school. I enjoy them more as a matter of trivia (and that slightly snooty satisfaction of knowing that I could set a formal table if I wanted). It doesn't bother me at all if all the table settings I see are either casual or non-traditional. In fact, if I went to a dinner with that much cutlery around me, I would wonder about the waste of water and resources to clean all the extra dishes when a much simpler setting would have sufficed. At a certain level, it's a matter of taste and social trend. Kudos to you for having such a wealth of knowledge on the topic. At a certain point, though, I'm afraid this knowledge will be more relevant to a historian than to an average diner. Sat Jan 19 15:06:03 -0800 2008 3309891 70779 assorted 2 3313372 The table and its manners are more and more relevant to the average diner than they used to be because more of them are being asked to the table. In our upwardly mobile society, anyone can make it to the top and needs to know how to act once they get there. Bill Gates was a college drop-out and look where he is. Corporations and law firms are hiring etiquette consultants for young associates who have to be taught what they haven't learned as they grew up. Many years ago, it's unlikely that most of us would have been invited to a formal meal, but increasingly, ordinary people are invited, not only to the White House, but to official functions at all levels. I can't tell you how often I see people at these events unsure of which bread plate is theirs, the direction to pass the salad dressing, how to hold their knife and fork, or even how to cut their food. They start eating while the speaker is still addressing the audience, stack their plates when they finish, and commit all sorts of egregious faux pas. I'm sure in some business settings it costs them jobs or promotions. It may seem a senseless ritual but it's one you must follow out of respect for the occasion. These same people would probably take offense at someone not following the rules in a soccer match. Sat Jan 19 23:01:03 -0800 2008 3312484 32444 MakingSense 3 3321483 Othere may have mentioned this further along, but Making Sense, you JUST beat me to the punch. I have watched colleagues and juniors stumble over simple etiquette rules in business dinner settings. They feel uncomfortable and they ARE judged and jobs and promotions ARE lost over such things. It may all be old-fashioned, but it does happen. In our town, there is a discrete (and very expensive) service available to teach corporate execs and wannabe's how to manage the formal dinner party, the cocktail networking opportunity and all that. It does still matter. Tue Jan 22 13:44:06 -0800 2008 3313372 24738 LJS 1 3312788 As a contrast take a look at this site for a Korean Girls Middle School. The bottom right is a link to the way Korean girls are taught to set traditional Korean tables. http://e.ussg.ms.kr/home/include.php?inc=groupactivity_5 Sat Jan 19 17:24:04 -0800 2008 3309891 93805 hannaone 2 3312838 What a *great* link! It would never have occurred to me that each dish would be specifically placed. But I particularly loved Natural Dyeing as an extracurriclar activity. Now why wasn't that available when I was in school! Sat Jan 19 17:44:41 -0800 2008 3312788 11407 JoanN 2 3313175 Thank you, Hannaone. What a great website! I'm now smiling to myself over someone's earlier remark on of how much easier it is to set a (presumably Korean) table with "just" a pair of chopsticks and a spoon. True, the eating utensiles are greatly simplified, but oh my word, the number of dishes! And all those centuries without dishwashers! '-) The photography at the website is beautiful, especially of the different table settings of food. Again, that raises my curiosity. WHO des all the cooking? The website makes it clear that some tables are set for two diners, but are the five dish and nine dish tables examples of an individual table for one person? They each have chopsticks and a spoon for one. And if that much food is presented for just one person, does anyone ever eat it all? I have a shortcut to the website on file and will be spending more time looking it over. But for the moment, cooking and setting a table for a full western style formal dinner seems like a walk in the park by comparison! And the big nosey question.... How often do you cook like that? It's amazing. Just amazing. I think I would be an instant convert to corn dogs. Only requires one chopstick and no dishes! '-) Thank you! Caroline Sat Jan 19 20:45:57 -0800 2008 3312788 112096 Caroline1 3 3313231 The five and nine dish can be for 1 to 4 diners. The small dishes are refilled as needed. For one person the amount in each dish is small, with larger amounts added for additional persons. In a private home without hired help, the main dish cooking is usually done by the eldest able woman, assisted by by the senior daughter/daughter in law, then other women in the household work on the small dishes (There can be up to 4 generations in a traditional family home). It helps that many of the ban chan (the pickled/preserved) dishes are prepared in larger quantities, then used over the course of quite a few meals. The Namul portion (Fresher, usually wild, vegetables) are prepared one day ahead or on the same day. Most Koreans in Korea (can't say what is common in Korean/American households) eat this way, although not with strict attention to placement, and will probably use the smaller 5 dish setting for most meals. As far as my family, we eat this way only on the holidays, Korean and American both, and our daily meals are a blend of Korean and American. Sat Jan 19 21:08:35 -0800 2008 3313175 93805 hannaone 1 3312934 No, it doesn't bother me. Keep in mind, many cultures have completely different traditions for setting a table that are absolutley acceptable. Also, when a photographer gets to a location, sometimes not everything is available for the shoot, or too many bits of shiny sparly faltware can mess with lightling, and most importantly, most of the photographers are photographers and not Emily Post or a trained butler/housekeeper so how can you fault them for having no clue. Some people jsut set the table the only way they've seen it done. I can say that about 75% of the people I know have never experienced a traditional formal table setting. On another note... We must also put some of these table setting tradtions into perspective. "Back in the day" ladies of the house had nothing else to do but "manage a home". Now, I mean no disrespect by the way that sounds, but the times were different and women had no choice but to keep a home and manage "the help"...imagine, if any woman took any pride in their only job (keeping house) she would for sure hold herself to some pretty strict traditional codes to show her peers her expertise in keeping a home in order and hosting any functions revolving around a meal. When one has nothing else to do but fixate on table settings, they sure as hell better have a perfectly set table. In this day and age, thing are not so formal and golly, I am sure happy about that.When I want and ulimate formal dining experience, I will head back to Joel Robuchon and put my bread on the table cloth....they have very pretty table cloths, Sat Jan 19 18:30:22 -0800 2008 3309891 93485 tatertotsrock 2 3313261 Have you ever browsed "Mrs. Beeton's Book of Household Management"? I have an 1861 copy of the "new" edition, re-edited by her husband. Very handy if I need to know what a footman's or a scullery maid's duties were. Some of the recipes are still very good. Just none call for a KitchenAid or a Cuisinart. Life was strenuous back then, which is probably why they could sock away all that food. They burned calories like a freight train burns coal! I can still remember a couple of Thanksgivings at my great grandmother's house when I was three and four. She was a tiny little thing. I loved her dearly and was fascinated by her because she was the adult closest to my size. We would arrive at her house early in the morning so my mother could "help." Mom did things like peel potatoes and a few carrots. My great grandmother made applesauce from scratch, caught, killed, plucked and dressed the turkey all by herself, made the stuffing, the cranberry sauce, the pumpkin pies, the mince pies, and every "trimming' known to man basically by herself and all on Thanksgiving day because her ice box was only big enough to hold a couple of quarts of milk, a bowl of gelatin and a block of ice. And every Monday, did all of the laundry with a washboard in a tub by herself. They could afford help, but she liked doing things herself so she knew they were "done right!" That lady worked! But that was the standard of her day. I'm sure your great grandmother (and everyone else's) did the same. My god, I love electricity! '-) Sat Jan 19 21:20:03 -0800 2008 3312934 112096 Caroline1 2 3313502 Published misinformation does bother me. If someone is paid to do a professional job, ignorance is no excuse for flubbing. He should either turn the job down, or turn to a knowledgeable consultant for expertise. Sun Jan 20 03:12:15 -0800 2008 3312934 13619 Sharuf 1 3313270 Just a note to make sure it is understood that all of the silverware defined is never placed on the table at the same time! I can see it now: a 20 foot long dining table to seat eight! The "rule of three" is always followed. Yup. A "rule." Never more than three of anything on the table at one time. But anyone who has all that stuff would decide what was to go on the table after the menu was finalized. No sense setting out an oyster fork if you're serving pate! Sat Jan 19 21:29:07 -0800 2008 3309891 112096 Caroline1 2 3313528 Put me down as someone who isn't bothered. Since I don't hold to any strict rules in my table settings for guests, I wouldn't know a proper setting in the media if my life depended on it. Rules are made to be broken. Life is made to be lived. No, I couldn't care less about table settings. Now the food! That's another story altogether. Sun Jan 20 04:27:30 -0800 2008 3313368 11104 dolores 3 3313781 ditto Sun Jan 20 07:28:27 -0800 2008 3313528 77080 justagthing 3 3314020 That's a very slippery slope. What if you went to an expensive restaurant and none of the tableware matched? Just cheap stuff from the restaurant supply house in the wholesale market? Plastic tumblers. Jelly glasses for the wine. Paper napkins? Ahhh! But the food! Worth every penny? You have to know the rules before you can break them creatively or appreciate that skill. Sun Jan 20 09:14:55 -0800 2008 3313528 32444 MakingSense 4 3314033 why? people 'break' rules all the time w/out even knowing there are rules. I see people playing with chopsticks like they are playing the drums, or worse yet, they stick their chopsticks in the rice bowl, straight up. Do they know the rules or the meaning of this, probably not, but I don't go around telling them otherwise, unless I am dining with them, I just let them know the meaning of their faux pais (sp?). But still, not a big deal to me, just and fyi as I would like others to tell me, but I don't expect them to change unless they choose to. Sun Jan 20 09:19:22 -0800 2008 3314020 77080 justagthing 5 3314048 but you would not expect a magazine in Japan to have a picture of a table set with chopsticks sticking out of the bowl, or four place settings. Sun Jan 20 09:26:48 -0800 2008 3314033 57890 KaimukiMan 6 3314092 a mistake is ok, but the chopsticks sticking up is actually taboo in culture, whereas a mistake in placement in western place setting is not, i am assuming. please let me know if there are any taboos or what as I don't know and have never been told. btw, chopsticks up represent death. Sun Jan 20 09:41:31 -0800 2008 3314048 77080 justagthing 7 3316979 exactly why i picked the chopsticks example. As far as strong taboos, we have largely forgotten them in "the west", but as mentioned in one of the posts, a knife is set with the cutting edge facing the plate, makes it hard to casually slash the person sitting next to you. The hostess eats first, indicating that the food is safe to eat and not poisoned. As table stabbings and poisoined dinners are somewhat of a rarity these days..... nuf said. Mon Jan 21 10:24:08 -0800 2008 3314092 57890 KaimukiMan 5 3314089 Actually the chopsticks in the rice bowl should be brought to peoples attention - at least if they do business with Asian companies. An American businessman lost a multi million dollar deal with a Korean company while dining at my former restaurant because he "didn't know the rules". Sun Jan 20 09:39:56 -0800 2008 3314033 93805 hannaone 5 3314650 Sorry, but Jfood has to state a position contrary to the "rules are meant to be broken." Rules are NOT meant to be broken, and if broken consequences ensue. That's one of the major issues facing us, people are so self-centered it's "me first, others be damned." Jfood likes the decorum and surroundings at a good restaurant. If jfood is spending hard earned money, the restaurant is a mid- to high- price point (let's call it $25-40 entrees), jfood expects certain items from both the restaurant and fellow patrons. The restaurant should have nice dishes, utensils and glasses; trained and pleasant staff and of course good food. The patrons should have respect for the staff and the other patrons, dress appropriately and understand they are in a social setting with others. They are not in their family room or a locker room, this is a restaurant,please respect the environment and others. Last night (a saturday night) the jfoods were eating at a nice $25-35 entree restaurant. More than half the people showed up wearing sneakers (this is New England, not California). The lady at the next table had a running suit and sneakers. This is a saturday night out. Come on people show some decorum. This may get a bunch of "come on jfood relax a little" and that's OK, he fully expects that. But there are many of us who would like people to remember "restaurant manners" that the jfoods taught the little jfoods. Sun Jan 20 13:31:33 -0800 2008 3314033 11290 jfood 6 3316465 so was there a dress code at this place? if not, then what is wrong with wearing sneakers? ok, from CA here, so it does not seem so unusual. Heck, shorts and flip flops aren't unusual for us here near the beach. I mean, I will respect a dress code, but if there is not one or it is not stated, then I see no problem. I suppose I usually don't let others bother me in that regards. Now, if they were in my face or so loud as to be disturbing the ambiance, that is another issue altogether. Mon Jan 21 07:58:04 -0800 2008 3314650 77080 justagthing 7 3316626 Yup, as jfood stated east coast. But here's the issue and jfood realizes that he is a bit old-school here. We have five senses, sight, hearing, smell, touch and taste. Let's leave the last out because if the food does not taste good then everyone agrees the restaurant experience is bad. Now onto the others. As you mentioned boisterous is not appealing and jfood agrees, likewise jfood thinks you would agree that smelly is also not an acceptable form of presence in a restaurant. But for some reason, eye-appeal gets a free pass. Why? When someone shows up with dirty sneakers and less than dressy clothes on a saturday night dinner, why the free pass? Yup, it bothers jfood, absolutely not to the level of the noise and the smell, since he can basically ignore the dress but not the latter two. But sloppy should have a standard as well. Curious on any input. Mon Jan 21 08:45:50 -0800 2008 3316465 11290 jfood 8 3316693 ah, now sloppy is another issue, kinda sounds like dirty and disheveled clothes. Here by the beach, it is CA casual and usually the flip flops and shorts are very much a look that still is put together. When someone wears jeans and sneakers, we're usually talking $200 pair of jeans and shoes that match or surpass that price. So it is not off putting in regards to 'sight' so not really a free pass, I just guess out here the look is still put together. Mon Jan 21 09:03:44 -0800 2008 3316626 77080 justagthing 9 3316739 Understood the "designer ripped" jeans and the like. Jfood is speaking to Big Box running suit and dirty Nikes on a couple that has never seen the inside of a gym. Just strikes me as a bit disrespectful to the environ. Not put together but thrown together. Mon Jan 21 09:16:46 -0800 2008 3316693 11290 jfood 10 3316915 we don't really see that much of that type of 'look' here by the beach, but then again it is OC/LA beaches. LOL on the Nikes that have never seen a gym. Mon Jan 21 10:04:27 -0800 2008 3316739 77080 justagthing 11 3317165 When I lived in Del Mar (CA beach city), it used to crack me up to see a group of ten or twelve young (presumably) wives come into a nice restaurant for lunch and half of them would be dressed in VERY expensive "tennis togs." But if you were seated close enough to hear any of the conversation (and it was often unavoidable), you knew they didn't have a clue which end of a racquet has strings in it. There have been a couple of guys in jeans and a tuxedo jacket at the Oscars. Gotta confess I sit and hope they trip and break their Oscar if they win. '-) And for the record, I'm a fifth generation Californian. Mon Jan 21 11:18:42 -0800 2008 3316915 112096 Caroline1 10 3317470 jfood, I couldn't agree more. Nothing chaps me more than dressing for a nice evening out at an upper-end eatery, and having people come in wearing cutoffs and flip flops. Believe me, I'm far from the Fashion Police, but I agree with how you put it - it's disrespectful to the environment. Mon Jan 21 12:43:50 -0800 2008 3316739 67610 Suzy Q 10 3321242 I have had many meals in many restaurants in every New England state for a very long time, and I have never seen any one dressed in sneaks & sweats in any upper end restaurant. Now, in the summer, at various beaches, out of doors, dress is a little more casual. But not to the extent of 200$ ripped jeans and Air Jordans. Tue Jan 22 12:55:31 -0800 2008 3316739 75332 Gio 11 3321724 This is getting more and more common in big cities that are also tourist destinations. People don't even bring clothes that are suitable for changing into for supper at upper end restaurants and then are surprised when they are required to wear a jacket or feel under-dressed. They are on vacation, after all. In Washington, the National Mall from the Capital through the Museum area, White House, etc. is also the business district and tourists go to many of the top restaurants in shorts and sneakers. It used to be an insult to say somebody was dressed like a tourist but now half the world thinks it's OK to go out to eat like that. Tue Jan 22 14:31:26 -0800 2008 3321242 32444 MakingSense 12 3321904 heh...trying dining in Orlando. Husband had a conference there last year. We decided to give Jiko a try...it's on Disney property....South African place with lots of accolades. The meal was wonderful, the room comfortable yet elegant, the service impeccable...and the bill reflected the quality and setting. ...except for all the patrons in sandals, disney tshirts and ball caps having just come from the parks. Apparenlty no one could be bothered to shower and change before a high end dinner... I'm not one to really get uptight about dress codes, particularly in a resort environment but we were REALLY thrown seeing others in the restaurant. Tue Jan 22 15:18:16 -0800 2008 3321724 16406 ziggylu 12 3322367 Yikes! I have not seen that here in Boston. The Ritz Carleton here had a very strict dress code. NO jeans. Period. That was relaxed a bit when so-called designer jeans came into being, but still a shirt, tie and blazer/jacket had to be worn. What's the point of going to a nice up scale restaurant if other diners look as if they just came in from the gym.....Bah! Tue Jan 22 17:47:54 -0800 2008 3321724 75332 Gio 12 3323425 I will now be looking at those who dress even more casually than I do in restaurants with a much more forgiving eye. Wed Jan 23 06:08:14 -0800 2008 3321724 11104 dolores 13 3323459 Orthodoxy is a powerful psychological driver for most people. I really could not care less how others are dressed when I go out to eat. I also really don't care what strangers think of me when I go out to dinner when it comes to my choice of attire. The problem is that there is an overwhelming urge for some to try and dictate "taste" to others. You either fall for it, or you recognize it for what it is, an attempt to exert control over our freedom to choose for ourselves. Wed Jan 23 06:21:42 -0800 2008 3323425 108169 Servorg 14 3323470 Amen, Servorg. Wed Jan 23 06:26:40 -0800 2008 3323459 11104 dolores 14 3324410 Gee, I usually agree with you, Servorg, but on this one I think you're way off base. The problem is further complicated by the fact that many people today may not have a clue as to what the impact is of their disregard for tradition. I'll share a true story in order to offer an example. A neighbor of my mother's was complaining loudly about how rude Italians had been on her recent visit to Italy with her two young boys. I asked her how they had been rude. She said that she was traveling on a limited budget, and put together a picnic lunch for her and her boys, then had gone to an outdoor restaurant in San Marco's Square, where she had seated herself and the boys at a white clothed table in a roped off section. She was righteously indignant that the "rude waiter" told her that she and the boys could not eat there. "It's not like we were stopping anyone else from eating at that table. That section was closed!" Talk about an Ugly American! I have an American friend who wears tee shirts overseas with a Canadian mapleleaf on them. She says it saves her a lot of guilt by association. When you disregard the dress code for high end restaurants, you are showing total disregard for other's enjoyment of their evening out. If you're only willing to dress for Pizza Hut, for God's sake, GO to Pizza Hut! But I will also add that I fault the restaurants for not enforcing the dress code as much as I fault the diners who disregard it. If the diners were refused seating a time or two, they'd either dress properly or go somewhere else. In either case, the diners who do follow dress code would be happier. It's not all that difficult. Wed Jan 23 10:30:15 -0800 2008 3323459 112096 Caroline1 6 3321148 More than half the people showed up wearing sneakers (this is New England, not California) Aha! so that only happens here? I thought so. Just exactly what does that mean? This is New England, not California....because some showed up improperly dressed at the restaurant you dined, does not make California at fault for her inappropriate dress or lack of wardrobe. Unless she was indeed from CA, then maybe you can say that. I was wondering about why this restaurant allowed such dress, if the attire of said persons was that offensive and noticeable, was there not a dress code? I don't have to be in California to observe people that wear clothing that is out of place for the restaurant or setting. Dining in San Francisco, Napa, and around the lower penninsula at some rather nice places for the past 35 years, I've noticed that there are tourists that frequent our area and sure, they will decide to eat at a nice restaurant dressed in the attire for which they wore that day while site seeing. I really don't think that just because I spend a certain dollar amount for my meal has anything to do with what another person decides to wear. I can say that I have never worn a sweat suit or running suit to any restaurant out dining or getting cocktails ever. Tue Jan 22 12:36:57 -0800 2008 3314650 50431 chef chicklet 7 3321204 Sorry if the syntax gave that impression, but California, nor any other state, was at fault for this attire.This would be sloppy and disrespectful in all 50 states. Tue Jan 22 12:46:17 -0800 2008 3321148 11290 jfood 8 3321707 Ok. I feel better. Thank you. Intentions would have to come into play before you could label it "disrespectful" but yes perhaps sloppy. But you should discuss that with the restaurant. I don't know what policies that restaurant has, but I know the nicer restaurants would not allow dirty clothing, bagging and sagging, bare midriffs, or tee shirts. Most of them clearly post it or host will say something. The rest, well I just don't think other than tourists that get caught up in their day of fun, do it on purpose.Maybe the lady had a chemo treatment, or physical therapy. I remember I did have to wear tennis shoes and sweats after lower back surgery for quite some time...like months. Gosh, maybe I did wear them out to a restaurant after all.... Tue Jan 22 14:27:43 -0800 2008 3321204 50431 chef chicklet 9 3321913 In her later years (mid-90's) my grandmother had pretty bad arthritis on some days depending on the weather. Sometimes a (nice) sweatsuit and slip on tennis shoes was the most she could manage. Because she also had balance issues, sport/tennis shoes were what she wore pretty much everywhere., and she was NOT apologetic about it. I have a feeling that is not what is being discussed here, and is pretty far from the OP's posting. The most important of manners is forgiveness and accommodation. Tue Jan 22 15:20:53 -0800 2008 3321707 57890 KaimukiMan 8 3321756 I can only hope that maybe these people who show up "underdressed" were from out of town and had lost their luggage. I have had my luggage show up on the day of my departure from Florida 2x...thank goodness it was Florida because my pretty cotton skirt in my carry on worked with my pretty black flip flops and luckily the tank tops I wear to kayak in look pretty snazzy and worked with the skirt for 5 days...uggg! Had I been in NY and lost my luggage, I don't know what I would have done because I do not have enough money to buy a new outfit after spending money on a trip and most of my trips involve a knock down drag out fine dining evening and a lot of outdoor activities...I usually only bring 1 pretty evening outfit. After the Florida issues, I've made it a point to bring my 1 nice outfit in my carryone since it's less expensive to replace fitness/outdoor clothing than an outfit for dinner. Tue Jan 22 14:36:11 -0800 2008 3321204 93485 tatertotsrock 4 3314371 I wouldn't expect an expensive restaurant to have non-matching silverware. But would I care? Unless it were dirty, no. Would it influence how I felt about the food if the food were outstanding and I was happy with the food and drink? No. As a sidenote, my deal breakers are bad and/or rushed service, so I honestly don't care about the table settings. Sun Jan 20 11:29:40 -0800 2008 3314020 11104 dolores 5 3314436 Slippery slope if you don't care... What if the very efficient waiter just brought a basketful of clean flatware and said, "Here's some knives and forks and stuff. There's some napkins in there too. Since everybody ordered different things, you can use what makes you happy. Enjoy." Sun Jan 20 11:59:33 -0800 2008 3314371 32444 MakingSense 6 3314473 If I got my drink made to my specifications on my timetable and the food was delivered in the same manner and I enjoyed every morsel and the parking was free and the server was reasonably friendly and the prices were not outrageous -- I wouldn't care if the cutlery were wrapped in a paper napkin with a paper napkin ring. Oh, as long as I were able to get a second napkin. Another of my deal breakers, I have to have a second napkin. I am finding it interesting that this is something of such importance to others. Sun Jan 20 12:10:52 -0800 2008 3314436 11104 dolores 7 3314889 An excellent explanation of why McDonald's 2007 net income is up by 12.7%. Free parking. Good value. On the customer's timetable - almost 35% are open 24 hours a day. They give everybody all the napkins they want. Sun Jan 20 15:03:05 -0800 2008 3314473 32444 MakingSense 8 3315017 MS Not quite true. McDonald's will announce their earnings on January 28th, eight days from today. Your numbers are correct but are not for 2007 or the first nine-months of 2007 but are only 3Q07 (~90 days) as compared to only 3Q06 (~90 days), if you compare full nine months of 2007 versus full nine months of 2006 you will see net income is actually down from $2.3Bn in 2006 to $1.1Bn. in 2007 a 50% decrease. Their five key drivers are "people, products, place, price and promotion" Just wanted to set the record correct. Hope that helps. Sun Jan 20 15:55:09 -0800 2008 3314889 11290 jfood 8 3316068 Sounds good to me. I find nothing wrong with McDonald's, or Burger King. They discovered a 'need' and fulfilled it. Good for them. Yes, aren't free parking and all the napkins you want wonderful???? Mon Jan 21 03:02:26 -0800 2008 3314889 11104 dolores 1 3313999 i have to say, if anything, these table setting rules become less relevant with time. i remember recently reading a new york times article about how more and more formal black tie dining in washington d.c. is being replaced with casual dinners or even buffets. there was a comment somewhere above about how with an upwardly mobile society we all need to learn these rules, but i would argue that the result of this in general seems to be that once "formal" occasions tend to take on a more casual tone. on the other hand, a few months ago i was at a formal dinner as part of a conference, and about half the people at my table didn't know what to do with the fish knife. people don't know what to do with the plethora of flatware, and i can only assume that in another hundred years they will no longer be used. Sun Jan 20 09:08:29 -0800 2008 3309891 115981 nzach 2 3314484 What do you do with a fish knife? Sun Jan 20 12:18:15 -0800 2008 3313999 89496 ddavis 3 3314582 Um. You use it to 'cut' fish. It's got a very blunt edge, because most fish doesn't need a serrated or sharp knife. You use it together with the fish fork. Hey, don't look at me funny. My godfather thought it to be a great idea to present me with parts of an entire set of silver tableware for 8 over the years, on birthdays and Xmases. Needless to say, as a child and later, teenager, I wasn't exactly stoked about having matching silverware. Now, at the ripe age of *X* :-D I've really come to appreciate my silver set of 8: - 'regular' forks, knives and spoons - fish forks & knives - dessert spoons - icecream spoons - coffee spoons - cake forks - mocca spoons (very tiny, never use 'em... till I get that really expensive espresso machine... anyone??) Now if I only had a dining table/room that fit 8 people, the world would be perfect. Sun Jan 20 12:59:07 -0800 2008 3314484 116513 linguafood 4 3314754 Well, since it's obvious you use a fish knife on fish, perhaps I should have said "what's the point?" Is it to give "the help" more to do? Seems to me a set of 8 "regular" forks, knives and spoons is perfectly sufficient. But then when one is from the sticks and knows no better, why should anyone else care what one thinks? Sun Jan 20 14:11:10 -0800 2008 3314582 89496 ddavis 5 3314807 '8 "regular" forks, knives and spoons is perfectly sufficient.' It is. You are absolutely correct. 'why should anyone else care what one thinks?' One shouldn't. Sun Jan 20 14:30:42 -0800 2008 3314754 11104 dolores 5 3314821 There often is a point. Granted, much of Victorian silver took the point to the extreme, but much of that age was extreme. Our accoutrement's, or lack of, are constantly changing reflections of our lifestyles & societies norms & fads. Things change much more rapidly now - hence (IMHO) much of the differing views expressed on this thread. That said, there are several "points" which you may find relevant regardless of the formality or lack of in your personal style. Often the implement is designed to do a better job than a standard fork/knife/spoon. A quick example is a grapefruit spoon - makes the job quicker, easier & much less messy. Ditto for an iced tea spoon. There is also an intrinsic satisfaction in a well designed object. It feels better to use, it is easier to use since it is "balanced" to fit the body in conjunction with use, and the visual & tactile aesthetics further the delight. Even if a person is not cognitive of the nuances, they all contribute to the gestalt of the experience. A clunker and a roadster will both get you there, but the experience in the rides vary quite a bit. Both have their time & place - but being aware & appreciative of the differences heightens your experience. Sun Jan 20 14:36:17 -0800 2008 3314754 111267 meatn3 5 3314840 You neither need a fish knife nor do you *need* to care what anyone else thinks. Sun Jan 20 14:44:20 -0800 2008 3314754 116513 linguafood 6 3314955 hmmm... I'm uncomfortable when people tell other people what they need or don't need, but be that as it may, let me give some examples of situiations in which it may be extremely useful to know which fork to use or how to use a fish knife. At ceretain levels and in certain sectors of the job market, "social graces" are critical. Think about it a minute. If you owned a very large company, and the success of your business depended on pleasant social interactions by your employees with prospective clients, are you going to hire someone to work directly with those clients who doesn't have a clue about which fork to use in a restaurant, or who opens the door for whom, then hand that prospective employee an expense account and a company credit card? Or are you going to try to find employees who are able to handle themselves with grace and charm in any situation? Most bosses in today's world do check out prospective and even current employees. Maybe take them to lunch. Find out about them first hand. Do they drink too much when the tab goes on the expense account? Do they know their way around a menu? Do they know which fork to use? Are they gracious and thoughtful of the people they're dining with? These things may not be important when you're hiring a stock boy, or a fork lift operator for the warehouse, but when you're hiring a sales representative or any other employee who will be representing your company by entertaining and interacting with prospective customers it's quite a different picture. These are critical social skills that you, as the owner of the company, are going to go out of your way to make sure your company representatives posess. It's just good business practice. There are a lot of other times when one's "social graces" are the key to gaining a desired goal that we don't think much about, but where "the wrong fork" can result in not gaining the goal we're after. It could be membership in a club. It could be your child's acceptance into a specific school. It could even be something as basic and simple as making friends with someone you would like to get to know better. People who refuse to recognize these contingencies are locking themselves out. Why do that to yourself? Sun Jan 20 15:28:28 -0800 2008 3314840 112096 Caroline1 7 3315056 C How true, how true. Jfood interviews and hires from top graduate schools and you would be amazed at the sheer lack of social grace from some of these "best and brightest." Many have lost the opportunity in the "interview lunch." Likewise jfood had mentored many on how to act in meetings, lunches, even at corporate outings. Frightening is a good word. Then when you travel overseas, you see the vast difference. So it is important to know which fork, which knife, etc. and please do not take your bread and start scooping the soup from the dish because it's thick. Yes jfood has even seen that. Sun Jan 20 16:09:48 -0800 2008 3314955 11290 jfood 8 3315364 I do many "etiquette" dinners and lunches for colleges and universities in the Southeast, and jfood, I couldn't agree more about the lack of social graces present in many people today. What frightens me more than a lack of purely table manners, though, is a lack of *any* manners, period. Back to the topic at hand, though, the PhD candidate who dipped his half-eaten biscuit into the gravy boat comes to mind...he then used his teaspoon (which he had already used to stir sugar into his iced tea, licking the spoon afterward) to fish out the crumbs that he left behind. Sun Jan 20 18:21:50 -0800 2008 3315056 67610 Suzy Q 6 3316069 Quite correct, linguafood. The OP asked and one of the 'permitted' answers, I believe, is that I have a laissez faire attitude towards rules when it comes to table settings. I don't believe this attitude defines a person. I may know how to set a proper table and may be able to use all the knives and forks at a proper table setting, but I am not particularly interested in either. Who is to say those who do either are more correct? Mon Jan 21 03:10:23 -0800 2008 3314840 11104 dolores 5 3315117 People who ask "what's the point" and refer to "the help," rarely get the chance to leave the "sticks" very often. You may not care what anyone thinks, but the world gets tired of that attitude pretty quickly. Even those actually from the backwoods, without formal education, understand respect and that there are situations requiring different types of behaviors. When you don't know what they are, you learn them, just as you learn other skills needed to get along with others. You may never need more than a plastic spork to eat your carry-out or you may end up working for the World Health Organizations and have to wield a fish knife at a stuffy dinner you'd rather not attend. I hope the success of a poverty project never depends on what someone thinks of someone who doesn't care about that. Sun Jan 20 16:34:51 -0800 2008 3314754 32444 MakingSense 6 4043842 For the record, I actually have been to stuffy WHO dinners, and have never ever seen a fish knife on the table. I also have full time "help" and have never set the table with more than five pieces of silver (2 forks, 2 spoons, a knife). Thu Sep 18 02:18:46 -0700 2008 3315117 86221 lulubelle 5 3315201 Slightly an aside, but on topic of utensils used with fish, my husband and I just finished dinner and I, for once at home, actually wished that I had sauce spoons for our fish dish: http://savoirvivreutensils.com/saucespoon1.html They were in the place settings at Bouley on Friday, and are a very useful shape - shallow enough to "pick up" sauce that is served on a plate. By the way - from what I gather - and this may have been alluded to below, fish knives and forks are, among some, considered parvenu (or so I am told by friends who know some in the British aristocracy - yes far I field I know). Sun Jan 20 17:12:16 -0800 2008 3314754 10985 MMRuth 6 3315611 Some British consider them declassé, terribly bourgeois, etc., but then they're pretty commonly given to diners who order fish in France, even in pretty ordinary places which have stainless steel restaurant supply variety sets. The British vs. the French. What's new? Of course, Mappin and Webb, (by Appt. to H.M. The Queen and H. R. H. The Prince of Wales), the British silver company and jeweler, have "fish eaters," as they call the set of fish knife and fork, with all their silver services. So who knows? Sun Jan 20 20:04:19 -0800 2008 3315201 32444 MakingSense 4 3322374 Do you mean the small spoons meant for espresso? They're perfect for the tiny cups. Tue Jan 22 17:50:24 -0800 2008 3314582 75332 Gio 5 3323238 I think the mocha spoons are even smaller than the espresso/demitasse ones. Wed Jan 23 04:01:32 -0800 2008 3322374 10985 MMRuth 6 3323394 Interesting. The smallest spoons I have are those used in old fashioned individual salt cellars. They're about 1/2 the size of a demitasse spoon. Wed Jan 23 05:58:37 -0800 2008 3323238 75332 Gio 7 3323400 Spoons, right? Yes, the ones I have are really bitty. Wed Jan 23 06:00:09 -0800 2008 3323394 10985 MMRuth 6 3323414 You've got me wondering now. I always thought those small spoons I inherited from my great grandmother were demitasse spoons. But I'll bet they're not. I'll bet she had a chocolate pot and all the accoutrements. I'll have to ask my mother and see if she remembers. Wed Jan 23 06:05:09 -0800 2008 3323238 11407 JoanN 7 3323420 And I meant that the bitty ones I have are salt spoons - but I seem to recall the mocha being smaller than demitasse - was looking online for the Christofle guide to the pieces, but can't find it. Wed Jan 23 06:06:32 -0800 2008 3323414 10985 MMRuth 8 3323443 I just found out that Mocha spoons are 3 3/4" long. The salt spoons are smaller than that. (Thanks Ruth, I edited that post... need more coffee, I guess.) Wed Jan 23 06:16:55 -0800 2008 3323420 75332 Gio 9 3323498 That makes sense then - my demitasse spoons are 4 inches. Wed Jan 23 06:35:45 -0800 2008 3323443 10985 MMRuth 10 3323603 So I guess what I have are demitasse spoons as well. I wonder if there's any way to distinguish by the shape of the bowl, or is it just size? Wed Jan 23 07:09:21 -0800 2008 3323498 11407 JoanN 11 3323606 I think they are otherwise the same - and I'm guessing that the sizes might differ w/ different manufacturers anyway. Wed Jan 23 07:10:39 -0800 2008 3323603 10985 MMRuth 8 3323448 Yes, understood. I have salt spoons. Just never heard of a mocha spoon so had no idea there was a difference between it and demitasse spoons. See, this is why it's kinda sad to lose this information. I have friends who collect silver flatware and are very knowledgeable about such esoterica. But for the most part it seems to have been my mother's generation (and she's 90) that was the last to have it at their fingertips (perhaps both literally and figuratively). Wed Jan 23 06:18:15 -0800 2008 3323420 11407 JoanN 9 3323465 Oh yes, no one goes to that length to set The Perfect Table these days, and it's not surprising. Customs evolve just as language does. It's really a delight, however, to sit down at a beautiful table which the host or hostess has obviously made an effort to lay out in a pleasing way. It enhances the meal and relaxes the diners. Wed Jan 23 06:24:40 -0800 2008 3323448 75332 Gio 8 3325654 Sometimes I find I can get more information from browsing replacements.com. Sometimes they have some very old silver patterns in the silver section. It's a satisfying method of procrastinating when there is something I really don't want to do. Wed Jan 23 15:18:11 -0800 2008 3323420 112096 Caroline1 3 3314831 Actually, ddavis, back before Filet-o-fish, when people ate fish that hadn't been filleted and fixed up for them without skin and bones, like everybody expects now, fish was served with a fish knife and fork (or fish eaters as they are sometimes called in Britain.) You still get these routinely in France and some other countries. The fish fork has narrow tines to make cutting the fish easier and the fish knife has a shaped blade with a sharp point used to work under any bones that the diner might find so that he might remove them. It makes it easier to remove the skin as well. Here's what one looks like http://www.rubylane.com/shops/annwilhelmantiques/item/2444d6 If you serve or get served whole fish or fish with bones, they are great to have. I have several sets and we use them all the time. Sun Jan 20 14:39:33 -0800 2008 3314484 32444 MakingSense 4 3315033 I just returned from St. Barth where I had fish seven or eight times and each time I actually used a fish knife and fork. Seems a little pretentious when you're eating a filet. Sun Jan 20 16:01:18 -0800 2008 3314831 89496 ddavis 5 3315817 St. Barth = the FRENCH West Indies. I'm surprised they don't give you a fish knife and fork with a tuna sandwich. Not pretentious. Just French. Sun Jan 20 21:42:24 -0800 2008 3315033 32444 MakingSense 4 3315085 Oh how true. Last year jfood was in a country where the whole roasted fish for dinner was to die for. Only a knife, fork and spoon atthe table. jfood would have loved to see a fish knife. Would have saved numerous little bones in the mouth. Sun Jan 20 16:21:47 -0800 2008 3314831 11290 jfood 2 3318995 Nzach, that NYT article was referring to the changes in "entertaining" that have taken place recently in Washington since the passage of new ethics rules for both the House and Senate which just about outlawed sitdown dinners. Those haven't had any effect at all on the still quite formal diplomatic scene and private dinners. Even for large seated public dinners, especially charity events, there are clearances given by the Congressional Ethics committees and "ordinary" people attend these dinners, including young staff members from NGOs and non-profits. They are expected to dress properly and know how to conduct themselves well. Attendence is part of their jobs in many cases. When I was much younger, I was sometimes clueless at a formal dinner over what to do with some odd utensil. Just watch the hostess or leader of the table. Do the same thing. Go slow, watch others and learn. It gets easier. Mon Jan 21 20:14:34 -0800 2008 3313999 32444 MakingSense 1 3314321 Caroline1. I was brought up learning proper table manners and I learned to set a formal table exactly how you have described it. We eat the "European" way. I was very lucky to inherit a complete set of sterling silver cutlery....lunch and dinner forks and knives,soup spoons, cream soup spoons etc. ....12 of each...and a set of Minton dishes....12 each of 4 different sizes of plates soup bowls, cream soup bowls etc.... I have enjoyed using these for 35 years and I do set a formal table for dinner parties. I also will mix and match these dishes with my contemporary ones for different courses. People not only appreciate good food but I think they like to see a nicely set table. I have never paid close attention to advertisements and magazine pictures showing set tables but I will now. Sun Jan 20 11:08:29 -0800 2008 3309891 12375 Deborah 1 3315225 Caroline1, very interesting post, thank you. I don't generally get too caught up following rules of etiquette (except when it allows me to pick up asparagus with my fingers), but I do like to know which rules I'm breaking. Sun Jan 20 17:18:16 -0800 2008 3309891 64215 cimui 1 3315723 As I get older, i'm tending to notice details more and more. Also, my interest in tea- all aspects (including all the wonderful accoutrements) has me understanding the reasons behind why many things are done, setting-wise and ettiquette-wise. But, with that same knowledge, we aren't living in Victorian England, circa 1889. Our modern lives are just that-more modern. Do we -need- the same things to live life well, gracefully or elegantly? Not in the least, but I consider it refined, and definately take notice when someone goes above and beyond, and sets a fantastic table. More importantly, good manners impress me highly; and I take notice of them as well. All it takes is to witness a serious faux-pas in manners to make you watch how you carry yourself! ^_^ Does seeing improper table-settings get under my skin? Slightly, but worrying about things like that will take years off my life. I'd rather be satisified with my own work, and enjoy myself and friends at our parties and tea. Caroline, I get a slight feeling that people who know better and have the knowledge of proper manners and settings annoy alot of people..People who don't know, and just reply with a curt "who cares" response. Other people care, that's who! Proper settings, and proper manners show others that they care. Not about themselves, but the people around them. Perhaps, in our "me-me-me, now-now-now" world, the whole concept of taking the time to set a wonderful table, and know how to use all the times is just foreign to them. I love reading Mrs. Beeton's Book of household Managment as well! It can be a bit of a dry, boring read every couple of chapters, but I still enjoy it emmensly! Sun Jan 20 20:56:09 -0800 2008 3309891 23858 Honeychan 2 3315875 Remember, In caroline1's original post, it was about: "I keep seeing pictures everywhere of beautifully prepared and plated food, and then the table is set wrong! In magazines, on TV, on the web, all over the place and it’s happening more and more lately. Does this bug anyone else? Drives me nuts." Most people don't give a hoot about the table settings in "pictures", however most of us on this thread do care about the settings in person...unfortunately, caroline1 prefers to overlook people's FULL posts and only tends to respond regarding bits and pieces that she chooses to digest. I will say it again for caroline's sake: "Also, when a photographer gets to a location, sometimes not everything is available for the shoot, or too many bits of shiny sparkle-y faltware can mess with lightling, and most importantly, most of the photographers are photographers and not Emily Post or a trained butler/housekeeper so how can you fault them for having no clue. Some people just set the table the only way they've seen it done." Context is everything...some people only choose to look at the pictures, some prefer to skip the pictures all together and only read what's printed, and some like it all...oh, and some people just don't have time to pour over little details. There is no "wrong" way as long as no one is being made to feel uncomfortable. People, let's enjoy our meals!!! I will admit, I do notice when models are wearing shoes that are too big for them....I guess it has to do with priorities..shoes over flateware/table settings for me...hmm, but I am secure with my table manners, place settings, dining companions and I suppose they are fine with me too or I wouldn't be invited to "dine" as often as I do. Sun Jan 20 22:22:39 -0800 2008 3315723 93485 tatertotsrock 3 3315948 I'm wondering what bugs you so much about that first paragraph? You have completely ignored the second one. So for your benefit, here it is again: "So I’ve been wondering about it. Where do people learn this stuff? Maybe they don’t teach it in school any more. I’ve even wondered whether they teach it in culinary schools, because I’ve seen some major goofs on their websites too. All of this started me thinking about all of the people here who cook great food, but it may never have occurred to them to go any farther than to emulate what they see in one of these gorgeous pictures of gorgeous food with the table set wrong. So for anyone interested, I offer the following:" Sun Jan 20 23:30:54 -0800 2008 3315875 112096 Caroline1 3 3316186 I have, for various reasons, spent some time at professional photo shoots of food. Neither the photographer nor any of his/her perhaps numerous assistants is responsible for acquiring the flatware or presentation dishes, setting the table, or preparing or styling the food. That's the job of stylists. Some food stylists will also determine and acquire the settings; sometimes there is a separate stylist in charge of the "look" of everything but the food. The photographer is in charge of taking the photograph, not deciding what goes in it. And it is very definitely the stylist's job to "have a clue." It's part of the job description. Mon Jan 21 06:06:41 -0800 2008 3315875 11407 JoanN 1 3321739 Caroline I love properly set tables, I own so much dinnerware stuff, its downright criminal. I am also amazed at the thought behind all the proper placement, and the uses. I have often shopped for antique silver, and amazed all the different spoons, forks and serving pieces. Fine with me. But to answer your question, no I guess I don't really notice like someone like yourself will. I am more into the food on the plate. I will now pay attention. Thanks for bringing up this very interesting topic, and yes I would not be very happy if I paid a pretty penney for dinner and they served my wine in a jelly glass. Tue Jan 22 14:32:58 -0800 2008 3309891 50431 chef chicklet 1 3323731 Thanks to previous generations that were not only more prosperous than I am, but who also set great store by the finer details of life, I’ve inherited not one, not two, not even three, but multiple sets of very good, very fine china. English and French and German, dinner services, luncheon services, dessert services, tea services. Throw in the odd set of Staffordshire transferware from the 1820s, a mélange of Canton dishes, and double everything with sets of silver flatware and table ware ranging from the handsome and plain to the genuinely hideous, you are describing the basement pantry. Then I had the misfortune to marry a woman in a similar set-up. As it is, our house is overflowing with silver and china and crystal, most of which we rarely, if ever, use. I’m mostly partial to the Staffordshire transferware as that was the dishes most used in my family over the generations as part of their everyday dishes-through remarkable good fortune only two plates and four soup bowls out of the original sixty piece setting broke in 180 years of regular use. We also regularly use two services my wife likes and a set of silver flatware for Sunday dinners or when we have guests. The rest of it is shelved in the basement, perhaps till better (or more formal) times come back. Part of it is logistics: the china is too valuable to use on a causal basis, and I don’t have the time to handwash all the dinner dishes after a meal. I can’t trust the kids’ friends with the china as most of them weren’t raised to know the difference between hand-painted English porcelain and the regular dishes from the Pottery Barn. Last but not least, it’s odd serving pizza and spaghetti, even if homemade or from Marcella Hazan, on fine Limoges. But once in a while it’s terrific fun to drag out a dusty set of bone china from the basement, and get out the hideous Victorian silver flatware, and my wife and I are inspired to recreate part of a Victorian meal with oysters and game and sherberts. Wed Jan 23 07:47:53 -0800 2008 3309891 81926 Roland Parker 2 3323803 How fun - I am green with envy - especially the 1820s Staffordshire! Wed Jan 23 08:12:10 -0800 2008 3323731 10985 MMRuth 2 3325624 May I be your heir? '-) Unfortunately for me, I'm sure I'm far too old, but what a joy! And bless your thoughtful ancestors. For both of you! A bit of trivia. When Martin Scorsese decided to make his movie version of "Age of Innocence," before he blocked a scene or did much of anything else, he spent four years collecting the china and silver he used in that movie. He shared that on a TV interview but never disclosed whether he took it all home with him when the movie was done. I would have! Wed Jan 23 15:12:23 -0800 2008 3323731 112096 Caroline1 1 3324354 Ah gee Ma, can't we just eat our ribs with our hands? Wed Jan 23 10:17:26 -0800 2008 3309891 11178 chileheadmike 2 3324387 Of course, dear, that's how you're supposed to eat them. No sensible person would serve ribs at a formal dinner and expect you to use a knife and fork, silly child! Wed Jan 23 10:24:44 -0800 2008 3324354 32444 MakingSense 1 3324760 I know my children have been taught how to properly set a formal table for dinner/lunch and I would hope they teach their children. People do love to be presented a beautifully set table when they enter the dinning room. I believe it is all part of the eating eperience... it prepares you and your palate for what is to come. I just hosted a brunch this past weekend and my nephew spend quite a bit of time checking out my table and settings and commented how nice it was that I took all that time to formally set it even though it was "just brunch" as he said... my thoughts, if you are taking the time to pick your menu and cook you have to take just as much time as to how you will present this food to your guests. Wed Jan 23 11:51:10 -0800 2008 3309891 12606 MeffaBabe 2 3328536 I agree. A beautifully set table is wonderful sight, partly because of the implications it holds. Graceful hospitality, fine foods, good manners: those are the things often missing in most people's harried everyday lives, and once in a while it's a wonderful treat to sit back and enjoy the finer things of life. Thu Jan 24 11:51:31 -0800 2008 3324760 81926 Roland Parker 1 3730965 Wow, that was VERY detailed. I think dinners are a lot less informal these days. I've assumed that there are multiple "right" ways of setting up a table, depending on tastes. Since I pretty much only entertain close family and friends, I just set up the table to look nice. If my guest mistakenly uses the salad fork for the entire meal, that's fine with me. Thu May 29 10:05:50 -0700 2008 3309891 196196 blackfoot98 1 3731014 For what it's worth, this book also has lots of good information: Home Comforts: The Art and Science of Keeping House by Cheryl Mendelson http://www.amazon.com/Home-Comforts-Science-Keeping-House/dp/0743272862/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1212081313&sr=8-1 I've used it for everything from checking out place setting diagrams to proper care of nice dinnerware/drinkware to tough stain removal (and I have my degree in costume design, so the usefulness of this book is saying something). She covers everything. Just one editorial review: From Library Journal Unlike the shelves of short-cut manuals for people who don't enjoy housework, Mendelson's comprehensive book is for the person who wants detailed information on every aspect of setting up and maintaining a clean, well-functioning home. Building on the strong domestic skills she learned from her family, Mendelson, a lawyer, did careful research, incorporating current recommendations from experts. There are extensive sections on food, clothing, cleanliness, daily life, and safety, with information on negligence, domestic employment laws, insurance, and even the impact of clothing label laws on our laundry. Preferred methods are explained in detail, and some alternatives are offered for those who need to compromise. This is a valuable tool for today's masses, who aren't learning domestic skills from their elders. Readers with only a cursory interest or those wanting a highly illustrated guide may prefer Reader's Digest's Householder's Survival Manual (1999). I don't love the editorial reviews that refer to feminism or a "woman's job"- I think this book is useful for ANYONE. Thu May 29 10:19:31 -0700 2008 3309891 183643 sfumato 2 3731016 I agree - that is a wonderful book. Her novels are quite fun, by the way. Thu May 29 10:20:42 -0700 2008 3731014 10985 MMRuth 3 3731716 I had no idea she wrote novels- thanks for the tip! Fabulous! Thu May 29 13:10:32 -0700 2008 3731016 183643 sfumato 1 4040632 O.K. so I just found this today while, of course, researching table settings. I understand your frustration Caroline, however, could it be that times have simply changed and along with them acceptable table settings? I went through my late mother's cookbooks and for over 50 years a bread plate has been expected at a formal table setting. An example for you could be the English language. Look in a high quality Dictionary and you will find the first and second preferred pronunciations for any given word, these change over the years to reflect the changes in our society. Could this not be the same for formal table settings? Tue Sep 16 19:24:42 -0700 2008 3309891 226660 luvinfud 2 4042054 Great analogy. Many people these days don't even own formal dining sets or have formal dining rooms with tables large enough to accommodate the formal setting with any level of comfort. Even in restaurants, it's much more common to have your silverware/dishes switched out for each course instead of having everything laid out ahead of time. Wed Sep 17 11:07:45 -0700 2008 4040632 107671 queencru 1 4041220 No. I'm more interested in the quality of the food and companionship and I think table settings are trivial in comparison. Wed Sep 17 05:46:51 -0700 2008 3309891 148300 filth 1 4041317 oh my god, who cares? as long as the food tastes good I could really care less whether my water glass was properly aligned or my napkin folded properly. Wed Sep 17 06:34:08 -0700 2008 3309891 113078 progressivenewamerican 1 4041842 Caroline, I'm w/you on this one. I've been reading this since the beginning of the year...and finally decided to reply. I think manners, table settings, etiquette, etc. matter as the occasion deems necessary. In my own home, I set an informal table setting. However, I appreciate a nicely (and appropriately) set table--formal or informal. I think the dangerous thing about incorrect table settings captured in magazines, tv, etc is that folks, like me, might use it as a reference and further propagate incorrect settings. When diners use the bread plate on the right--and this happens surprisingly more than I'd like to see--this creates a problem at a round table, b/c it throws everyone else off. The funnier thing is when there is no bread plate: most put the bread on the dinner plate (I learned in France to put it on the tablecloth). It's sad when people disdain respect, manners, etiquette and rules, claiming ignorance or inconvenience. Ignorance can be excused the first time; social responsibility, ideally, would remedy future gaffes. It would seem that those who don't care, don't know; my guess is that they probably don't appreciate a nicely set table, don't know what fork to use with which course and/or perpetuate the "ugly American" image abroad. To those who say it's about the gathering, the company, the food, I understand that...but there are wonderful social graces that are also at play. Wed Sep 17 09:42:11 -0700 2008 3309891 12873 OCAnn 2 4043368 really because I just thought I was a stupid american...not an ugly one. Wed Sep 17 19:15:31 -0700 2008 4041842 113078 progressivenewamerican 3 4044393 Touche! Thu Sep 18 08:11:02 -0700 2008 4043368 12873 OCAnn 1 4043838 "So I’ve been wondering about it. Where do people learn this stuff? Maybe they don’t teach it in school any more." Dear Lord, I do hope you're kidding. Teachers are supposed to teach how to set the table in addition to the hundred other topics that people have now decided are to domain of the school and not the home? I inherited a huge selection of sterling from my grandmother, but aside from a couple of pull-out-all-the-stops dinners, it lives in it's box and we make due with a fork, knife and spoon. Thu Sep 18 02:12:41 -0700 2008 3309891 86221 lulubelle