478877 Sun Jan 13 09:43:01 -0800 2008 8 34 Wine 0 3290630 Went out for a nice dinner last night at probably the best restaurant in Eugene, Oregon (Like there are that many). Very nice wine list with lots of great bottles. I am still on my Pinot Noir phase and supporting local producers so I turn to the PN's. Now I don't know a lot about wine like most posters here but I am getting to know a little about Oregon PN's. Most the the restaurants PN wines were 2006 releases, including four or five from Ken Wright. I just happen to have three cases of 2006 Ken Wright in storage right now. It was released this November. The exact wine that I paid retail for at $50 per bottle they were asking $100. Other wines on the list were triple markup. Who is going to drink this stuff at those prices? My second problem with this is the 2006 KW should not be opened now, it is to early to really get the true protential out of the wine. And if you felt compelled to so such a thing at least let it be open for a couple of hours. It is to bad either the restaurant or the winemaker can not store these great wines until it is the best time to drink them. But I understand the economics of it all, the winemakers want there income asap and the restaurant needs to turn their inventory and can not afford to sit on it for three years. In addition they need to make money on wine sales. Guess I will just keep bringing my own wine to my Country Club and pay the $8 corkage fee and get good stuff with my dinner at a reasonable price. Sun Jan 13 09:43:01 -0800 2008 148886 duck833 1 3290864 Serious restaurants know that they can often pick up older bottles of Bordeaux and Burgundy for LESS money -- in some cases -- than they can new ones. The problem is that there is no well-established market for older American-made wines, be they California Cabernets, Oregon Pinots, or Washington State Syrahs. As you point out, cash flow is everything. Thus -- where legal -- corkage is a great alternative. Sun Jan 13 11:16:43 -0800 2008 3290630 28122 zin1953 1 3291009 Re: markups. 200% over retail is pretty reasonable, depending on your location. In NY, this would be considered a relative bargain. I think I've seen '06 Ken Wrights in NYC for as low as $42, not accounting for mixed case discounts. Using that as the price, the markup is just about expected. Re: young wines. Not sure you can blame the restaurant. I assume that previous vintages of the same wine have sold out and that the '06 will sell out before it's presumably ready to drink. I suppose the winery or the restuarant could simply hold off on releasing or selling it now. But then the price of the wine would go up even further, and justifiably so. But yeah, a good place with corkage solves most of these problems. Sun Jan 13 12:18:00 -0800 2008 3290630 97069 mengathon 2 3295092 Mengathon - Do you mean 200% OF retail or 200% OVER retail is reasonable? i.e. $10 retail = $20 wine list (200% "of") or $30 wine list (200% "over") Not trying to be the grammar police, just want to know what you meant - I'm accustomed to seeing wines at 2x retail (i.e. $10 retail = $20 wine list), but now many South Beach restaurants are trying their best to immunize me to 3x retail prices and higher. OP - As for availability of back vintages, most smaller restaurants simply don't have the storage facilities to hold these on their own (and I've been in Eugene, there's a few good places to eat but they're all pretty tiny), and so what you'll often find, especially when you're dining in wine country, is the current releases from the local producers (often a pretty good selection, at least). $8 corkage is great BTW. Mon Jan 14 15:38:03 -0800 2008 3291009 35525 Frodnesor 3 3295380 Bad grammar on my part. I meant 200% of retail, i.e. 2x retail price. It's rare that a restaurant in NYC will go below this, with the exception of expensive bottles sometimes going for 1.75x (or thereabouts) of retail. There are tons of restaurants here that sell a bottle of Conundrum for $75 as well. I'm pretty much immune to anything 3x or less. It's high, but it's not offensive. Anything above that, not only will I not drink wine at said place, but I probably will not visit again. Mon Jan 14 17:05:52 -0800 2008 3295092 97069 mengathon 4 3296643 I have seen very few places in KC that charge less than 3X retail for wine that retails for less than $20.00 or so. Seems like most wines in the $20 or above range are about 2X retail. Tue Jan 15 06:32:24 -0800 2008 3295380 53854 WyCo 5 3297669 2X retail is not at all unusual, and in fact pretty much what a restaurant has to charge to have a profitable wine list (of course, most restaurants want to make the list a profit center rather than just profitable) and to cover the costs involved in storing and serving wine. When it comes to the much more expensive wines, that percentage often goes down. Most restaurants just do not have the space or capital to have much of a cellar or to hold wines for any length of time (a wine cellar represents a significant sunk cost.) $8 its great for a corkage fee, here in DC it ranges from $15 ot $30 per bottle, but there are places that will waive the fee certain days, or if you also purchase something from the list. Tue Jan 15 10:52:27 -0800 2008 3296643 11814 dinwiddie 5 3311166 Took a closer look at some of the on line wine menus, looks like KC is more in the 4X range. Elsa Malbec for $28.00, Liberty School for $40.00. Honestly that makes you not want to not buy wine with your meal. Sat Jan 19 06:12:40 -0800 2008 3296643 53854 WyCo 1 3311260 I feel your pain. I don't mind paying a huge markup if I am buying a unique wine, or at least a wine that matches well with the cuisine I am eating. It is hard to stomach paying for a wine that one can buy for half the price at the local liquor mart, especially if it sucks. And I hate paying a lot for a bottle I have sitting at home. I don't have a huge budget, and can't afford to drop $200-500 + on a bottle of wine in a restaurant, unless it is a really special occasion (sigh) I know I have found a good restaurant wine list when I am excited by many of the bottles and I think I can afford to drink well off the list. When the sommelier discourages me from buying the most expensive bottle on the page, and points out a real gem of a wine that I've never tried or even heard of. When that recommended bottle matches perfectly with the food, and is inexpensive enough to order another bottle for the table without worrying about the cost. We had this kind of an experience when a sommelier recommended the Txomin Txacoli (a $20-25 wine, sold in restaurant for $70).Ready to drink, and wonderful with the food. She also recommended some other really great wines as well, I was amazed at how wonderful her selections were. I don't mind paying for excellent professional advice, and for a selection which is interesting, thoughtful and ready to drink. Wish more restaurants were like that. Until then, I thank my lucky stars I live in a place where there are many fabulous Bring your own wine restaurants, with no corkage, and really great food that is meant to go with wine. No markup, and my wines have been aged appropriately. Sat Jan 19 07:18:37 -0800 2008 3290630 89969 moh