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Who has bought a new dishwasher lately?

What brand did you get and why? I know I won't be going back to a GE and Fisher Paykel has a bad track record on repairs. I'm looking at Dacors....any info from any one?

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  1. I've had a fischer Paykel for about a year and so far so good. I love the convenience of the two drawers

    1. I'm about to buy one myself, have been looking at KitchenAid, would love to hear reports, too...

      5 Replies
      1. re: hollerhither

        I recently installed a Kitchenaid KUDS03ST, so far it works great. I believe they're made by Whirlpool. I looked at Bosch too, they're great but the hidden heating element robs some interior space from the dishwasher, so you can't load it with as many dishes as a standard DW with an exposed heating element in the bottom of the interior. Of course, with the Bosch, you don't have to worry about plastic things falling onto the heating element and melting.

        1. re: Buckethead

          Great, thanks for the feedback! That's the one I'd had my eye on, but I have been going back and forth between that one and Bosch. I heard Bosch can be harder for parts...

          1. re: hollerhither

            We like our Bosch, haven't had it long enough to need parts though. Very widely sold here now, though, so I suspect not as big a deal as it used to be. The Bosch dishwashers at least (only thing I'm very familiar with) are assembled in the US for the US market and are sold in typical home stores like Lowe's in addition to independent dealers.

            My favorite feature compared to all other dishwashers I've had/used in the past is the flow-through heating element so there is no exposed plastic-melting bit in the bottom. Nice to be able to put some Rubbermaid stuff or whatever in the bottom rack if necessary. Also nice and quiet, but many makes can achieve that these days.

            1. re: CrazyOne

              After being so sure I was going w/KitchenAid we ended up buying a Bosch from an independent dealer. The stainless tub (just like KA) and the energy efficiency were what sold it. I know that drying and storage space on the Bosch are a little atypical vs. other models, but I'm hoping we made the right decision. I'll report back after a few months' use.

              1. re: hollerhither

                Hope it works out for you. Just make sure you fill up the rinse agent (more important with the Bosch for a decent shot at drying; it has an idiot light to tell you when to add more). It's a tough thing, picking out a big permanent appliance. I cringe seeing all the folks who report their bad experiences, often even after choosing very carefully. It's difficult to find something that's not a tradeoff in one way or another, and sometimes we think we can live with something and that turns out not to be the case. Good luck.

      2. Our Miele - Optima Series - is just a little more than a year old. We have had no repairs, and we really like the features:
        top drawer for flatware
        adjustable racks
        digital time readout
        quiet
        superior drying
        24 hour delay time start
        baskets have removable inserts
        6 wash programs
        stainless interior
        and more!

        1 Reply
        1. re: liu

          Our Miele is about seven years old now and still plugging away. It's great. The cultery rack is super! It heats its own water (a green friendly feature). I wish I had gotten the crystal and china cycle, though. And the 24 hour delay time start on the new Optima would be super. Undoubtedly, should I need to replace this dishwasher after its 20 year life cycle, it will be a Miele. Should I buy a new home, there will soon be a Miele there if it's not there already.

        2. I bought a Miele Optima about 10 months ago, and I love it. No repairs yet (fingers crossed), but it's still pretty new.

          It's my first dishwasher, so I don't have anything to compare it to, but it's quiet, efficient, and easy to operate. Yeah, it's expensive, but I figure I saved a ton of money by not having a dishwasher for 20+ years.

          I chose Miele because I wanted a super-quiet dishwasher that was well designed and well made. I considered Bosch and Asko, too, but really liked the extras that Miele has. In particular, I love the top silverware rack. I also like the "configurability" of the two main baskets and their racks. All in all, a nice dishwasher.

          Anne

          1 Reply
          1. re: AnneInMpls

            Checking in to say that I still love my Miele Optima. No repairs yet, but it's only 4 years old. It seems a touch noisier than when it was first installed, but it's under an open-sided counter, so I suspect that it's just an echo from the walls. And it's still very quiet - no problem talking on the phone or watching a quiet TV program when it's on.

            My only gripe is that the bottom rack isn't configurable, and most of the "spikes" are designed for dinner plates only. We use lots of cereal bowls, measuring cups, pans, baking dishes, and other bowl-like items, and it's hard to fit them all in. It's hard to avoid wasted space in the bottom rack, so we end up hand-washing many of these items. But otherwise, it's a great dishwasher!

            Anne

          2. We just built a new house and moved in in October, and for our dishwasher we picked a Miele. We absolutely love it. My favorite part, I think, is the extra tray at the top for silver ware. It gets things so clean and shiny and there is never any spots or anything remaining. It also makes it very easy to unload. Also, it's super quiet and very versatile in that you can reconfigure the bottom parts for different sizes of dishes and pots.

            2 Replies
            1. re: baloo

              baloo -- I am commenting on your "It makes it very easy to unload."
              The upper flatware drawer took just a little getting used to, but now we LOVE it! We find that if we are fastidious in loading (placing like items together), it takes a little more time but the unloading is instant and mindless! I just grab all the teaspoons and toss them in their appropriate slot in the drawer, then I grab all the dinner forks, etc.

              1. re: liu

                Hi! You KNOW what I'm going to say! Miele, miele miele! I'm on my 2nd one (the first lasted over 20 years, maybe 2 service issues in that time, both quickly & efficiently resolved) & would never get anything else. And don't even get me started on how much I love my Miele oven & cooktop....lol

              1. I can't report on anything recently, but I did have a client several years ago that fell in love with the Dacor 30" dishwasher, which was an exclusive to them. It was no big deal to leave space for a 30" dw, and the client loved the idea that, in theory, they could fit a lot more stuff into the dw. Well, that machine leaked. A lot. Eventually client got fed up with repair attempts and dealer( factory?) gave 'em a refund and had me back to "shrink" the opening for regular 24" Bosch (or maybe an Asko?) with the same 'integrated" cabinet front look. But they ended up losing space to extra blocking, so not a good solution.
                They may have changed their ways, but my tendency is to stay with the leaders in dw and that remains Bosch in most price points... While I can understand why some picky folks choose matching SS appliances from one label (having matchy-matchy SS grain and pull handles that look identical on oven, fridge & d/w) I think it's a big advantage to have the integrated look where a cabinet front disguises brands, that was lifesaver ...

                1. About 4 months ago I replaced my 16 year old Maytag with a Bosch SHE68M05UC. Dishes etc. come out spotless and it's very quiet. It's not the commercial Hobart that I really want but it IS several thousand dollars lower in price!

                  1. I got a new DishDrawer from F&P for Christmas and I love it! A regular DW was too big for me & Mr OCAnn, so the one drawer was perfect. I've been using it daily (or every other day) with no problems so far. It's very quiet...and I aboslutely love it!

                    1. Well,Candy, you know what I'm going to say: Whatever brand you buy, don't buy from Sears. After our pre-Christmas dishwasher f***-up, we're now dealing with having a new floor installed. That will require new baseboard, and probably painting the whole first floor. Just because an installer was really careless. Water damage is devastating.

                      7 Replies
                      1. re: pikawicca

                        I agree! Never again from Sears, for anything. The latest rap on Sears is when you join their online community they install spyware on your computer, sheesh. Anyway, before I got the Bosch from Lowe's (great service, great install) I had a Kenmore from Sears all lined up, and weeks went by without hearing from the installer. I went back and had them cancel the order. Good riddance. Have not been back since (almost 2 years) and plan to continue to avoid.

                        1. re: pikawicca

                          I guess it is going to be Bosch from Lowes for me. I have that book for you BTW. If the groomer gets through with the girls early enough I'll run it over.

                          1. re: pikawicca

                            I bought my dishwasher from Sears. I was appalled that the city of Minneapolis required a $108 permit to install a replacement dishwasher. I actually called the city to complain. Of course a permit necessitates an inspector checking the installation. I was quite miffed about the whole deal.

                            Having read your post, the $108 seems like a bargain for peace of mind.

                            I bought a Maytag stainless steel tub dishwasher, manufactured by Whirlpool which is no longer available. I love my magic dish cleaning box.

                            My appliance repair guy sticks to the main brands, so that was a factor in my choice.

                            1. re: MplsM ary

                              Wow - that's awful!!! Here it doesn't make any difference who installs your dishwasher (although that may differ if you don't own your own free-standing home). In fact, the Sears salesman told us that while Sears charges $175 to install dishwashers, we were free to do it ourselves or find someone that charges a lot less to do it.

                              Husband - who's a VERY handy fellow - had it installed & working in just a couple of hours.

                              1. re: MplsM ary

                                I am both appalled and not surprised that Minneapolis requires such a permit. It's not about inspecting the installation to make sure it's installed correctly, it's about union inspectors making sure they have plenty of work to do and money to make.

                                  1. re: John E.

                                    Actually, I think it's both. Minneapolis inspectors, and maybe it's inspectors in general, have a screw loose - they are never happy unless they find fault. When I lived on Minnehaha Parkway a new inspector made us install a guard rail to our deck - though the door to the deck was always locked with a skeleton key. When he came into the house for the inspection he tried to fine us for not having railings high enough on our stairs - in a house built in 1929. Of course there was a grandfather clause for that, but ooh the delight he showed while madly scribbling was kind of creepy.

                                    As for the dishwasher installation, the inspector was very thorough. He noticed that a new 3/4" fitting was installed for my old 1/2" line. Of course I took the opportunity to grumble about the inspection and he calmly explained it was to prevent shoddy installations. I'd already paid for it. He seemed like a reasonable fellow. I'm sure he takes heat with each and every dang dishwasher installation he has to inspect.

                              2. We had one of the original Fischer Paykel's drawers. Constant problems. Got tired of the repairman.

                                We did go to Sears and bought the Kitchenaid top of line drawer model. Great installer, has been working fine.

                                1. Bosch. It's quiet and easy. I have washed a load of dishes every day for a year with no problems at all!

                                  1. I just ordered a Bosch which will be delivered in a few days. I can't wait!

                                    1. We have a Bosch too, and love it. It doesn't make any noise, cleans excellently. You can move all the things around for odd shaped or big things. I accidentally snapped a small part off, got it quickly replaced no problem. It is incredible. Wouldn't trade it for anything else!

                                      MIL to be had the drawer thing and we hate it when we are down there. You can't load odd shaped items, it makes a lot of noise, etc...

                                      1. Following many recommendations, we bought a high end Bosch. It was installed just yesterday, and buyer's remorse followed almost immediately. This particular model turned out to be an ergonomic disaster. My comments may apply to other brands as well.

                                        The unit has concealed controls on top, which is the latest thing. The front panel is a sleek, blank slate. Yes, it looks terrific. But the controls can't be accessed without opening the door. And opening the "childproof" door is not all that easy.

                                        To add or remove something from the machine once it's running, the manual says to pull the door open gently, which will stop the machine, and then wait a few seconds to avoid being splashed. But there is no external latch, the grip is very secure, and a gentle pull doesn't open the door, much less stop the machine. The minimum pull needed to open the door opens it too much, spraying water and detergent in your face and on the floor. We returned to the store and verified that all samples of this model share the problem.

                                        Canceling a cycle is much worse. Say you accidentally start the heavy duty wash cycle (up to two hours) when you just wanted to rinse and hold. You can cancel a cycle ONLY with the door closed. If you open the door (with the attendant splashing) and press the off button, the machine doesn't drain and the cycle obediently resumes when you turn it back on. To cancel, you must do the following: (1) squat on the floor with two sturdy knives; (2) squint into the quarter inch space between the buttons and the countertop; (3) press the knives on two of the hidden buttons at just the right angle and at the same instant; (4) hold the equal knife pressure for several seconds. This is the ONLY way to cancel a cycle and drain the machine.

                                        The machine uses what Bosch calls "condensation drying", which really means that there is no drying cycle ( and, by extension, no plate warmer cycle) at all. Drying is by evaporation alone.

                                        The front being stylishly blank, the "cycle complete" signal is concealed in the control area atop the door. This being useless, the machine beeps loudly five times when a cycle ends -- and repeats these beeps every few minutes until you shut it off. You can silence the beeps completely, but then there is NO usable "cycle done" signal.

                                        Although the rinse cycle runs at 156 F, the dishes must be toweled dry if you need to empty the machine right away. Bosch helpfully suggests that drying speed and performance can be enhanced by leaving the door ajar, but this requires your presence when the cycle ends. If you shut the door when you are finished, the machine innards remain wet for many hours after a cycle ends.

                                        We also discovered that there is no "delayed start" provision. Not noticing this is really our own fault, but our previous 12 year old, lower end, machine had it and it is offered on many of today's cheap machines -- and on some lower cost models from Bosch. This is going to hurt when our electric utility introduces "tiered smart metering" later this year.

                                        Note that there is nothing wrong with the machine's performance, and it appears to be quite well made. All Bosch machines sold in North America apparently have the same washing mechanism, so it's important to ask the right questions and try everything out before you buy. Today's trendy features don't necessarily translate to a good user experience. We couldn't anticipate, or even imagine, these issues when browsing the available machines in the store.

                                        While no Bosch has a real drying cycle, the other issues I've described do not afflict every Bosch model. What bums me out most was the opportunity to choose a different Bosch, which was described as obsolescent. The obsolescent aspect: the machine was not "fully integrated".

                                        "Not fully integrated" turns out to mean that all controls are on the front. The door opened gently, using a simple squeeze latch. It had a cycle timer, relevant signals, and a reset switch, with every necessary control visible and clearly marked. The washing mechanism is exactly the same. It seemed silly to buy this model when the "improved" version actually cost less at a Boxing Day sale. But the improvements aren't. I feel really dumb.

                                        (BTW, the store will allow an exchange if we absorb their loss for having to sell the return as a demo machine. This is very fair offer. But by the time we uninstall and return the one we have, and deliver and install the new one, our cost will have almost doubled. So we can spend $500 extra for the "inferior" model - which really isn't - or we can live with this ergonomic disaster for many years. It isn't a pleasant choice. Be careful.)

                                        One other thought: RUN from anything made by Dacor!

                                        24 Replies
                                        1. re: embee

                                          I'm sorry to hear about your unhappiness with your new DW - I know shopping for appliances can be a very frustrating experience. But thank you very much for sharing your expereince. I am on the look out for a new DW right now and your comments will be very helpful in helping me to avoid making some mistakes. I don't care about a DW being fully integrated either and would much prefer having the controls on the front like my old DW. My mom has a high end KA with many of the same issues that are you are experiencing and she is not happy with hers either.

                                          1. re: flourgirl

                                            I thought I was happy with my brand new, top of the line KA, but now after less than 5 years, and only using it a few times a month, it just doesn't work. This started Thanksgiving Day to boot. It runs, more noisily than before, and after an hour and a half the dishes are dirtier than when they started. Husband has been trying to figure out the problem since, as i don't want to pay hundreds for a repairman just to end up having to buy a new one anyway. Luckily I don't use it everyday, but I know I won't be buying another Kitchenaid...All the junky ones that came with our previous houses worked for the 10+ years we were there, and they were old to start with.

                                            1. re: coll

                                              It sounds like your husband is the handy type, he may be able to solve your problem with the help of the Samurai Appliance Repairman:

                                              http://fixitnow.com/

                                              I fixed my clothes washer in an afternoon armed with the forums there.

                                              1. re: Buckethead

                                                We've used this site to fix both our clothes dryer & washing machine. Saved us a bundle.

                                                1. re: Buckethead

                                                  Wow, thanks so much! He's gonna love this!

                                                2. re: coll

                                                  That's funny - we're still using the DW that came with our house too - and we're going on 13 years here in April. And I'll bet it was at least 8-10 years old (if not older) when we moved in. It's a Frigidaire. Really, my only complaints with it are that the dishes have to be fairly clean going in to get them washed right - so we're doing a lot of pre-washing in the sink. Basically I see the dishwasher as a sterilizer and a place to keep all the dishes until they are dry instead of handwashing AND drying everything. But after reading a lot of stuff here on CH and elsewhere about new DWs, I'm thinking that maybe we'll just stick with the one we have until it goes kaput. Lord knows we have plenty of other stuff we need to spend money on around the house.

                                                  1. re: coll

                                                    Does your machine have a "self cleaning" filter? Most North American machines have one, so checking the filter isn't something you would normally do. As a quick, relatively easy check, see if anything is clogged in the drain area, the pump area, and the filter. Disassemble what you can easily and clean everything out. Also check all the spray arms and be sure they pop-up (if applicable) and that water flows freely.

                                                    If the machine fills, the wash arms spray, the unit drains, and you didn't find anything clogged or jammed, I'd suspect a serious repair bill in the offing. But a clogged filter or something blocking the pump would cause the symptoms that you describe.

                                                    The forums noted above would undoubtedly help. But the economics of replacing dishwasher motors outside of warranty generally aren't very good.

                                                3. re: embee

                                                  Sounds like you didn't do enough research before heading out to the store. The main difference I saw between a Bosch DW and a lot of other mainstream brands when I was shopping was the exposed vs. hidden heating element. The Bosch's hidden heating element only heats the water used for washing, it can't be used during the drying cycle. The advantages of that are higher energy efficiency and elimination of the possibility that any plastic items you wash will touch the heating element and melt. The disadvantages are (as you now know) that condensation drying doesn't work as well, and the hidden heating element takes up some interior space which could otherwise be used for dirty dishes.

                                                  Was this a new dishwasher installation in your kitchen, or did you replace an existing DW? Installing a dishwasher is pretty easy if you're just replacing it and the electrical, water supply, and drain lines are already in place.

                                                  FWIW, I have a mid-level KA dishwasher with hidden controls, and they work great. You can choose your cycle and options and hit start all while the door is open, the dishwasher will start running when you close the door. I think it's just a matter of the design decisions made by the manufacturer.

                                                  1. re: Buckethead

                                                    I appreciate your comments. We did research very thoroughly, and we bought from a low pressure pro-oriented store with a great selection and good advice.

                                                    We'd heard ONLY positive comments about Bosch dishwashers, and they have been rated well by Consumer Reports.

                                                    We knew about the drying system, but the many Bosch owners of our acquaintance had no complaints except, ironically, that a freshly washed load of dishes could be too hot. We've had things fall, and melt, over 35 years, so this seemed a good feature. We quickly learned that it poses problems given the way we use our machine. Since we often run several loads in succession, most of our dishes will need to be toweled dry. Worse, the energy saving aspect will be lost, since we can't schedule this machine to start at an off peak time.

                                                    My other comments apply to some specific Bosch models, including ours, and not to everything they make. We returned to the store and tested other machines with hidden controls, including others from Bosch, based on our experience. We learned that hidden controls can be fine, but the hidden controls and latching mechanism on this specific model were designed by morons. The salesman (a good one, BTW) had no idea of the contortions required to cancel a cycle. He assumed you opened the door and pressed a button - unfortunately, true on other models, but not on this one.

                                                    My point in posting the message is that even careful, thorough research may not identify issues specific to your installation, and nifty new features aren't necessarily a good thing. The machine washes dishes well. If we accept the store's offer, we might even choose another Bosch - the untrendy, obsolescent model that turns out to have the same washing mechanism and a much more sensible, ergonomic design.

                                                    I also learned that the best dishwasher design for usability incorporates an external door latch with an integrated switch, front panel buttons and signals, and a mechanical clock timer. Many dishwashers still have this design, and some of these cost $200. But good, quiet dishwashers come with sleek designs and fancy controls and some of these defy logic in ways not imaginable in the store.

                                                    This machine replaced an existing dishwasher installation. However, we are not in a position to transport, move, or install a dishwasher ourselves. If we were, the store's replacement offer would be very attractive. By the time the essential ancillary costs are added in, not so much.

                                                    Ironies abound. The installer was factory certified and he installed the machine exactly according to the book. We learned later that other installation methods were possible, and that we could have pushed the unit two inches out. This would have eliminated the sleek flat look, but it would have made the machine usable. Our neighbourhood handyman plumber would have asked us where to place the machine. The certified installer followed the Bosch suggestions to the letter and the installation can't be changed after the fact.

                                                    1. re: embee

                                                      Sorry you are having issues with your Bosch. I have had Bosch DWs for years, four units that I recall plus I helped install two more for very close friends whom I see at least four times a week. The reason for owning so many has nothing to do with reliability or satisfaction with the machines, just that I developed severe allergies and it took a while to find a place I could live in reasonably good health.

                                                      Two of the machines I owned and own are of the fully-integrated design. No problems whatever in opening during a cycle in either case. I suggest instead of just pulling on the door you do what I do which is place my thumb against the edge of the counter so I have a resistance point, then flex my hand and pull the door open with my fingers.

                                                      The second point I want to make is that you must not have read the instructions thoroughly because Bosch has addressed the cycle cancel issue. The exact method of cancellation varies with the model; in some cases one pushes two buttons simultaneously (with the door opened), then when the door is closed the machine goes to drain, then stop. In others, with a full-readout LED panel one simply activates the "-" (minus) sensor and closes the door. If it seems still to be running it's just the machine draining any water. The drain cycle will start and stop several times to drain the water that might drain off the dishes but will stop completely in a couple of minutes. One does not have to switch the machine off and on in either case.

                                                      Also, regarding the flush installation if this is still an issue once you learn how properly to cancel a cycle, anything that is done (with respect to mechanical things - psyches are another matter) can be undone. After all, if you ever need or want to replace the appliance there has to be a way to remove it. If you can remove it (not difficult) you can also re-install it as you prefer. It's ridiculous to say the installation can't be changed after the fact, and whoever said that is sadly misinformed or just doesn't want to do it. It's rather like asking directions and being told "you can't get there from here".

                                                      1. re: matt71

                                                        That post is almost two years old, and I stand by everything in it. We kept the machine because, in truth, it does a really great job of washing dishes. I pointed out that our ergonomic issues did not apply to every Bosch or every flush installation.

                                                        I appreciate that you are trying to be helpful, but we did not fail to read or understand the instructions. The cancel function works as described, and not as you state. To quote myself :

                                                        "To cancel, you must do the following: (1) squat on the floor with two sturdy knives; (2) squint into the quarter inch space between the buttons and the countertop; (3) press the knives on two of the hidden buttons at just the right angle and at the same instant; (4) hold the equal knife pressure for several seconds. This is the ONLY way to cancel a cycle and drain the machine.

                                                        There is no other convenient, practical way. (Perhaps going into the basement and tripping the breaker would reset the cycle timer...)

                                                        The latch has loosened a bit with use, but water still splashes out all over if we open it while the machine is running.

                                                        Finally, the installation was an either/or proposition. Once installed in the flush position, the alternative options were no longer possible. It's related to how they designed the installation parts. Of course we can remove and reinstall the machine, but only in the same position.

                                                  2. re: embee

                                                    Our bosch only does the 5 beeps at the end of the cycle it doesn't keep beeping until shut off, we must have a different model...

                                                    Sorry you didn't like it. We never really open ours up middle cycle (although I have) we also don't find our door all that hard to open though maybe because we have opened and closed it a lot now? Maybe its because we didn't get the same model. But our controls are on the inside.

                                                    It does not have a drying cycle that is correct. I don't mind that since we don't do dishes all the time, mine are normally just fine when we remove them, but people doing a lot of dishes all the time might not like that, and there is a little water on top of some of the glasses.

                                                    1. re: embee

                                                      Yes, the control variations on the various Bosch models are interesting. The one we have at home is the very base model which has front-panel controls. From a function standpoint, this is far superior to hidden IMO. The front panel controls allow for a countdown timer telling you how much longer the cycle runs, for example. From a style standpoint, this is a personal preference thing. Personally I don't care, but some people like a sleeker look or integrated look.

                                                      I can directly contrast this with the somewhat higher end Bosch model we have in the kitchen at work. Chosen because it was quiet and stainless steel, this one has a big pull handle on the front and hidden controls on the top of the door. The interior is identical to my lesser model at home. This model might be rated 1 or 2 dB quieter than my home unit, but both are very quiet.

                                                      Just a couple comments about the operation of the hidden control model: I have opened it mid-cycle without getting splashed. And there is a way to switch cycles that I presume would work on others: you do have to turn it off. Then, turn it back on and there should be a combination of two of the buttons pressed together that will give you a cancel/drain. Close door and it should drain. Then you can start a new cycle. If you catch is soon enough after selection, you should be able to change the cycle, but I think once you close the door and it starts running you can't change it without turning it off. (For what it's worth, I believe the front panel controls operate the same. You turn it on, and it defaults to the last cycle run. You get a short time to select the cycle, then it stays selected unless you do a cancel/drain which is a two-button combo.) Our hidden control model beeps but after a few minutes there is no other indication of the machine being done, apart from the clean/sanitized light on the top of the door, which you can't see unless you open it. The front panel model at home at least has 0 minutes on the readout that you can see as well. The boss chose all the kitchen stuff (we own our office space), and I know he was looking for quiet quiet and having things match, but around here a more functional front-control model would have been better. The fridge is black on the sides, and the stove is black on the top, so I think a black front control Bosch would have been a better choice. Oh, well.

                                                      Here's an odd thing I found: some Bosch models have a settable option for "additional drying heat". You'll find mention of this in the manual. It's a key combo you put in and it stays set unless you turn it off. Here's what's odd about it: my low-end model at home can do this. The flat panel hidden control supposedly nicer unit at work does not have this option (though some even higher models do, I think). For yours it'll be hit or miss whether it has this. The drying never bothered me; I'd rather be able to put plastic on the lower rack. But I know for some this is an issue. To me I thought it was odd to see some $1000 and up dishwashers that still had exposed heating elements.

                                                      1. re: CrazyOne

                                                        Some Bosch models work exactly as you describe, but ours is different.

                                                        The door can't be opened with a gentle pull. It takes a major tug, therefore the splash. Apparently this tight grip is normal behaviour for this door. Some other Bosch models (both more and less expensive ones) don't have this issue.

                                                        The on/off switch can operate with the door open, but the "cancel cycle" switch combination cannot. With the machine on and the door closed, you must press the cancel buttons for three seconds, then wait one minute, then open the door and press the off button. The contortions I described represent the ONLY way to cancel a cycle and drain the machine. Some other Bosch models with hidden controls may operate differently.

                                                        The "additional drying heat" option is on some cheaper models, but not on our machine. However, it simply raises the rinse water temperature to (presumably) make the water evaporate faster. It doesn't add an actual drying cycle. Only models with a full digital readout have this feature, which is why your "non-integrated" model can do it and the fancier one can't. This may not matter from a practical perspective, since our water input is 140 F and we have the NSF "sanitizer" cycle on the machine.

                                                        1. re: embee

                                                          Tis very odd, and unfortunate, in this I mean mainly the control issue. I figure the door I'd get used to, and, well, I don't find the drying thing to be an issue but that's me. We don't run loads in succession like that, and knowing this, it probably was never a good choice for you. Even the low-end has the NSF. But what just amazes me that your unit which probably has the same control buttons as the hidden control unit we have at work (you know, top rack only, econo, regular, super, whatever they are labeled but there are about 5 or 6 cycle buttons on the right, and the on/off button on the left) and indeed most of those are on the exposed control face of my home unit, but you have to stick knives in there to press the buttons for draining. Just seems like an oversight. You need to be able to stop and drain the thing without that contortion. There are any number of reasons you might want to do this from time to time. I know I drained our machine at work a couple times, and I never had to do that. (We had a cleaning guy that went above and beyond and liked to either run or empty the dishwasher and would unfortunately not realize that while it was silent it had not finished yet and left it undrained a couple times.) Since I know it was possible for Bosch to incorporate this feature in the hidden controls (without pressing the buttons with knives) because I've used it, their failure to put this on your model is just ridiculous.

                                                          It does happen from time to time, that we buy a pricey well-regarded item that turns out not to work well for us. Quite frustrating when it happens. I hope you eventually come to terms with it, or are able to replace it with something that better meets your needs.

                                                          1. re: CrazyOne

                                                            In a nutshell:
                                                            - The dishwasher performance itself is fine
                                                            - The machine, though a bit louder than expected, is still quiet
                                                            - The delay timer issue was our own oversight
                                                            - The drying method, standard on all Bosch machines, has not been a problem for any of the many Bosch owners we know
                                                            - The installation looks great.

                                                            BUT:
                                                            - The door pull issue is problematic and potentially a bit dangerous
                                                            - The controls are an ergonomic nightmare
                                                            - The door pull problem makes the control problem worse
                                                            - One of the alternative "non standard" installation methods would have avoided the ergonomic problems. While less "sleek" it would nevertheless have looked fine. But it wasn't offered as an option and the standard installation, as done, can't be revised.
                                                            - The drying method's energy saving benefit is nullified by the missing delay timer
                                                            - The drying methodology makes Bosch a poor choice when wet dishes can't be stored and several cycles are run consecutively

                                                            As I said in the original post, I feel stupid. The "obsolescent", "non-integrated" machine (drying method aside) would have been perfect and, in hindsight, was the obviously best choice. But an easier to operate latch (Miele, Kitchen Aid, and some other Bosch models all have one, hidden controls and all) and a simple cancel button that worked with the door open would make this machine just fine.

                                                            1. re: embee

                                                              embee -- I am sorry for all your problems...how frustrating!
                                                              But your report is terrific, and you have educated all of us. Thanks for sharing such valuable information.

                                                      2. re: embee

                                                        Not that it's what you want to hear right now, but drying dishes in the dishwasher is a terrific drain on the environment, and letting them air dry is a great way to make a small donation to the planet. The damp dishes will have been sterilized, so you won't have to worry that much about leaving them damp until you get home to open the dishwasher. I understand that if you pay for a machine that is supposed to dry your dishes, you want a machine that dries your dishes, but on the bright side, it's an opportunity to think about the bigger picture.

                                                        1. re: embee

                                                          embee--

                                                          Can you give us the model number of your machine?

                                                          We are looking at machines now after having a next-to-uselss Maytag for 7 years (spits chewed up food onto dishes in the top rack in the last rinse and dries them on like concrete) and I SO don't want another frusstrating $$ machine.

                                                          Please let us know so we don't make another mistake. Thanks.

                                                          1. re: toodie jane

                                                            The model is SHX46A02UC46.

                                                            Note that we decided to keep the machine. The cost and aggravation of exchanging the machine was more than we could face, even with the dealer's very fair offer on the machine itself. So we have now lived with it for more than a month.

                                                            The bottom line is that this machine turns out to be extremely good at washing dishes. Given that virtually all Bosch machines above the minimum level have the same washing mechanism (differing only in features), I can actually recommend the brand so long as you don't typically wash multiple loads in succession. If you do, the Bosch drying process will cause problems. However, a load left in the machine overnight is, indeed, dry in the morning - and spotless.

                                                            If you don't run successive loads, by all means consider Bosch. But be sure you choose a model that doesn't have these illogical controls. Most of them seem to be designed with more common sense.

                                                            1. re: embee

                                                              Hi embee,

                                                              I have a SHX46L15UC. Dont know what the differences are really between the codes, ours is a 4-cycle, plane front panel model. I should have done more research, having moved up from 3-cycle version at our last house...I just assumed the added cycle, and added $ would be for a delay programme.

                                                              As with our old DW and this one, the door only takes a gentle pull to open.

                                                              We typically just press ON, for regular cycle, when the tub is full before going to bed and in the morning everything is absolutely clean, except for the water on top of some mugs.

                                                              Where there was concern the time we used liquid DW detergent and the washing was not great. We just switched back to granuals and it fixed the problem.

                                                              How do you turn off the beeping at the end again?

                                                              1. re: neighborguy

                                                                I don't have the manual handy and can't remember how to shut off the beeps. I recall that you must press two of the control buttons atop the door, but I can't remember which ones . Sorry :-(

                                                                The manual advises using powdered detergent. The solid tabs (Electrosol came with the machine; we generally use Cascade) seem to be fine, but liquid definitely doesn't work as well.

                                                            2. re: toodie jane

                                                              Hi toodie jane,
                                                              We have had the same issue with a Maytag for 8 years and it finally died. Can you let me know what you ended up buying for a dishwasher and are you happy with it? I'm researching, but highly frustrated with all the conflicting review and info out there...

                                                            3. re: embee

                                                              Thank you very much, Embee, for your Bosch description. This is extremely helpful.

                                                            4. Hey I am sorry about your experience. I too had a Bosch dishwasher and it gave me all sorts of mechanical issues. It was not worth it. I remodeled our old
                                                              home and really wanted the Bosch because of it being quite... it did clean great but the small size of the cavity, the fact there was no disposer and the inside flimsey tins made me know I would not buy that type again.

                                                              Where I live currently, we replaced the old panel ready Asko with a LG with buttons on the front.. we went to Home Depot and got it.. they treated us well through the whole process plus the machine is good.

                                                              I chose a LG Stainless 24 inch with buttons on the front, no handle because it is supposed to have the largest cavity besides Whirlpool. The upper rack can be lowered to accomadate 12 inch dishes. The utensil basket is great. It can be one huge basket or be pulled apart to make smaller baskets. The interior is stainless with no exposed element on the bottom plus I can wash half loads, upper or lower. I can choose strenth of spray strong, meduim or soft, choose extra rinse and sanitary with the soak button, pots and pans, or normal. There is also a delicate, 15 minute rinse option and quick wash. There are 3 spray arms inside. One on the top of the top rack, one below the top rack and one below the bottom rack.
                                                              I can fit so much into it and the dishes come out spotless and dry. Right now I just put on a load, with a small toaster oven broil pan, 10 inch skillet, 2 1 1/2 quart sauce pan, dutch oven with steamer insert, cutting board, lots of bowls, cups, big serving spoons, 12 inch, 2 inch thick skillet, 12 inch lid, load of flatware,

                                                              Bosch does dry a tad better but the LG is fine with that.. I find using Jet Dry, it works really well and aids in it being dry .. I also like the fact it has a disposal. I can put dishes in that aren't completley rinsed off and the food particles are taken out through the disposer.. Had spaghetti on the spoons and they come out extremely clean. The only 3 draw backs I have is that there is no light. The washer is 24 inches and much bigger width, we had to take out a side board to make it fit.. we are currently waiting to gets some molding to go along the side of the cabinet, so there won't be a big space.. The last draw back is, the washing takes a long time. 2 hours and 56 minutes on the power scour ( pots and pans) and 3 hours and 14 minutes with extra rinse. There is a normal wash for 2 hours and a quick wash around 1/2 and rinse is 15 minutes.. 1/2 loads are less on time too. I feel though due to you can put so much into the dishwasher it offsets the time.. with the bosch, it was hard putting everything into it and often I would have to wait and do 2 loads.

                                                              Before the LG, I did go to Sears and purchased a high end Frigidaire stainless steel but we had such bad service with the sale, the install was awful, sent a rip off artist out who heaved the dishwahser into the cavity which didn't fit due to the outer brackerts( too long of a story) we asked them to come out and get it. Never washed with it but the whole Sears experience was terrible. Also I looked at KitchenAids and really would have LOVED to get one but decided to go with the LG.. budget wise it was less and the cavity could hold so much... I am glad I did... ohh to, it chimes when done. Love that.

                                                              11 Replies
                                                              1. re: mama who loves to cook

                                                                Hello. I am in need of a new dishwasher; ours (whirlpool) is only two years old and needs to be replaced. I am debating between a Bosch and an Asko. Which Asko model do you own? Is the Asko difficult to load (the tines seem so close together)? Does the Asko dry well, and is it quiet? Any repair problem? Leaking?, etc.

                                                                1. re: shopper

                                                                  Timely bump.
                                                                  Wondering if anyone has any input on deciding between an onboard food grinder / self disposal mechanism (American dishwashers,) and not having one, but having to clean out the filter (European models)

                                                                  1. re: gordeaux

                                                                    You know, I've been wondering this the whole time I've had the Bosch (a bit over 2 years, I think, and also there's one in the kitchen at work, which is 4 years I've been seeing that). I can't figure it out, I never find anything in there. The filter is really easy to access, so you can clean it every once in a while. But seriously I've never find anything of note in the filter, so to me it's certainly not a big difference. Maybe someone else will have experience with actually finding stuff in there. ;-)

                                                                    Previous dishwashers were always the type with grinder. Not having the grinder is one part of what helps the Euro models be a bit quieter, although with the proper sound insulation the grinder models can be plenty quiet as well.

                                                                    1. re: CrazyOne

                                                                      I hear more and more people telling me that it really is a non-factor, and the salespeople just use it as a selling point. I'm going nuts trying to get all these appliances ordered. I think tomorrow is the big day we purchase both the new cabinetry, and the appliances.

                                                                      1. re: gordeaux

                                                                        I should update this by saying I pulled out the filter from the home machine a week or two ago (not long after my earlier post) and noticed that while there were as usual no big particles there was a bit of a film all over the fine mesh screen. So I cleaned that gunk off and put it back in. It didn't seem to have any adverse effect (yet) on the cleaning, but might as well be sure. I checked the one at work, and it was pristine. I think people there are in the habit of rinsing off the dishes a lot, whereas I try harder at home to minimize that to use a bit less water/energy.

                                                                  2. re: shopper

                                                                    We've had our Bosch for almost 9 months now, it's been great -- dishes have never been so clean. Streak-free glasses, although that might just be the Jet Dry requirement at work. Very quiet and very energy-efficient. As cited previously on this board it's best to run it overnight so everything is sure to dry. It does seem a little small -- that would be my only complaint, it isn't friendly to our wine glasses and some of our cooking utensils.

                                                                    1. re: hollerhither

                                                                      I have a similar experience with my Bosch--our second one. We have the cheapest model, I believe, and the top rack is not adjustable. It is too shallow to put wine glasses or taller water glasses in, which is a major pain. Plus it doesn't have a narrow enough slot to keep glasses from falling over so you have to load carefully. They are smallish inside, I believe to accommodate the insulation for the quiet.

                                                                      Other than that, it's extremely quiet and the cycle runs much faster than its predecessor. Our old one died after 6 years--repair cost would have been almost equal to the price of the new dishwasher. We went to the store fully intending not to get another Bosch but couldn't find anything else in the same price range with a stainless steel tub and as quiet as a Bosch.

                                                                      1. re: coney with everything

                                                                        That's really unusual, when did you buy your new one? I have the cheapest one from a couple years ago, and the top rack does adjust. It's not with knobs or anything, though. You have to pull the rack all the way out and put it on the lower setting. There are two or maybe three heights to it. At the lower height I can get dinner plates in the top if I wanted to. .Also there are fold-down holders on the right-hand side that are designed to hold the stems of glasses. I can't imagine how tall a water glass would have to be to not fit!

                                                                        I ask when you bought because I'm wondering if a later revision than mine has cheaped out on those features that used to be on the low end, or if mine added these somehow after yours. Maybe you can purchase a different top rack, although that's probably not cost effective....

                                                                        1. re: CrazyOne

                                                                          We bought ours earlier this year and it was the next model up in price that had the height-adjustable rack. I do have the fold-down holders but they don't seem to fit the wineglasses we have.

                                                                          1. re: hollerhither

                                                                            Weird. It seems like a funny feature to cheap out on because the "height adjustment" really only amounts to an extra set of rollers on the top rack so you can pull it out and move it down. That's too bad. If my quick looking is correct, it appears to be part of a push to an even lower price point than before. The cheapest ones I found sell for less than mine was a couple years ago, and I'm still pretty sure mine was the cheapest available then.

                                                                      2. re: hollerhither

                                                                        Usually it is the water that is unkind to glassware and some utensils. I live in an area with abundant limestone and we have very hard water. Over time the glassware gets etched by the minerals in the water. I learned this the hard way with some Waterford.

                                                                  3. I had a Bosch and it lasted five years. The top of the doors are colored plastic and you have to be very carefull not to get citrus on them or they will really discolor. The Bosch does not have a fan so they don't dry as well as some but it is a very quiet machine.
                                                                    A few months ago I purchased a very high end GE SS model that was supposed to be ultra silent. A complete piece of junk. The pump hangs down off the bottom in a hose so ot cavitates terribly and makes all kinds of noise. It had a huge soap dispensr and was supposed to auto sense the amount of soap needed. We went through a months supply in about a week. The best part was that the sound insulation package for the kick plate wasn't deseigned properly so with it installed the door would not open all the way! LOL
                                                                    I wound up buying a SS Asko which is the same company that makes Viking dish machines. It's quiet, cleans extremelly well and has a fan. The best part is the door totally closes in the machine so the look is very streamlined unlike most machines where the control panel sticks out. I'm very pleased with it. Excellent product.

                                                                    1. We have had a top of the line Kenmore for six years. Extremely quiet, thorough cleaning, good drying, easy to use, and no reliability issues. Cannot comment on more recent models or the shopping experience. If the only issue is installation, can you sensibly arrange to have someone else put it in your kitchen?

                                                                      1. We got a Kenmore Elite(made by Bosch) and have been very happy with it . quiet but thorough cleaning.

                                                                        1. I'm afraid to get a new dishwasher now. We've had the same Whirlpool contractor's special that came with our new house for 21 years now, run it every two days, and have never had a service call yet. The same goes for the range and microwave. The Admiral refrigerator broke down once, so we have had to spend a whole $60 on it in 21 years. Had we known back then what we know now and had the Internet for research, we would have never bought these appliances and would have probably spent much more to keep them running. Sometimes you just get lucky.

                                                                          Now that we are remodeling the kitchen, we are facing the fact that we will most likely not be so fortunate with the next series of much more expensive appliances.

                                                                          3 Replies
                                                                          1. re: SuzyInChains

                                                                            Lucky you...as they say, if it ain't broke....

                                                                            1. re: SuzyInChains

                                                                              I'm in the same boat. Whirlpool dishwasher, microwave and range/oven standard items installed in my then new home 25 years ago. I am only replacing the DW as the round glider piece that rolls the bottom tray out snapped off. Otherwise, it runs fine. The microwave will probably be replaced after that (push "buttons" are a bit worn out). All of this commentary makes me very, very nervous.

                                                                              1. re: alwayshungrygal

                                                                                I had a GE dishwasher, GE fridge and Maytag/Neptune washer for 8 years with no issues. New house has Asko dishwasher, Subzero fridge and Whirpool washer & dryer and all have had issues within 3 years.

                                                                            2. Just bought a Frigidaire model less than a month ago, and we're very pleased with it. It really does get the dishes all sparkly-clean, and it's much quieter than the Maytag we had in our last house.

                                                                              We were severely constrained in our choices because the cabinetry only has an 18-inch wide opening for a dishwasher, and that size is surprisingly hard to come by. However, when we remodel the kitchen in a few years' time, I plan on getting a Miele!

                                                                              1 Reply
                                                                              1. re: SpiceMustFlow

                                                                                The only way I intend to be separated from my Miele d/w (and oven & cooktop) is out of my cold, dead hands!!!

                                                                              2. I have a Bosch 800 Evolution Series DW. LOVE IT. Granted, I didn't realize some of the drying issues at first, but after a discussion with my salesperson, I am all fine. It's ok with me to leave the door ajar after the cycle, as we do not do load after load of dishes and it really is such a little effort on my part to save energy. I have an open kitchen and it is super quiet and it cleans beautifully.

                                                                                1. There's a great repair website, fixitnow.com, aka Samurai appliance repair man. Has a lot of Q &As about appliance repairs. Samurai recommends Miele.

                                                                                  It's quite a fun website, do some searches about the models you're considering.

                                                                                  10 Replies
                                                                                  1. re: mlgb

                                                                                    Just a very general comment about this thread and dishwashers in general.

                                                                                    ALL dishwashers are much better today then they were even 5, let alone 10 or 15 years ago. Consequently, comments about older machines, or machines owned previously (ie built more than, say, 5 years ago) are really not a very good guideline to what the same brand may be today. And since some brands have become common only recently, notably the "foreign" brands such as Bosch, Miele, LG etc., everybody who is talking about those will have had a better experience than the average of those talking about Whirlpool, Maytag, Fridgidaire, etc., because many of those latter folks are talking about machines they bought 10 or 20 years ago.

                                                                                    I say "foreign" because the name doesn't tell you where the machine is made any longer. Many "American" brands/machines are imported, and "foreign" ones are made here--Bosch is made in North Carolina for example. Fridgidaire is owned by Electrolux. And there are many more brands than actual makers, since many identical machines are sold under different names. This is true of most appliance catagories. Check it out, and know what you are buying.

                                                                                    Sears stuff is still pretty good (its Kenmore brand appliances are mostly made by Whirlpool, but by others too like Bosch mentioned above), but Sears has big operating problems these days since Eddie Lempert bought it and has been starving it of working capital---this may help explain the installation problems spoken of by so many. If you shop Sears, take steps to insure your installer is a good one not a dud.

                                                                                    1. re: johnb

                                                                                      johnb - Your comments confirm everything we have come to know about appliances today. I think your advice is very sound.

                                                                                      1. re: johnb

                                                                                        Your comments contradict those of Samurai Repairman. There are a LOT of problems with Sears/Whirlpool especially if you need warranty service.

                                                                                        MOST of the new dishwashers today are WORSE than the old ones built pre-watersaving. My old Whirlpool/Kenmore for example, has a made in the USA motor. I doubt that any new one does,

                                                                                        And there are a lot of issues with Bosch.

                                                                                        Don't take my word for it, or johnb's. Check out the website I cited for appliance complaints.

                                                                                        1. re: mlgb

                                                                                          Your samurai site has some good information, but I would caution against swallowing it hook, line, and sinker as you seem to have. That guy is mostly full of himself (or his beer), rather than necessarily good usable information. And his view is one-dimensional, ie his chief criterion in appliance selection seems to be freedom from repair. Unfortunately the world is not that simple.

                                                                                          Today's dishwashers ARE better than before. Yes, new DWs have to be energy star compliant, which presents some challenges, but they still do a better job overall as has been found in general reviews. And anyway, even if he were right what difference would it make? You have to make your buying decision today, not yesterday.--you can't buy a new machine today that was made before today's rules.

                                                                                          As to how good Miele is, your samurai guy says that it's "the only good one," and then admits in the next sentence that you have to spend $2,000 to buy one, but says go ahead, it's only money (and the only thing that matters is freedom from repair bills!!!). That's not helpful advice. He also undercuts himself elsewhere on his site where he says there are no good DWs, and that the buyer should buy mid-price not high end. So what is his advice????

                                                                                          When making a decision that you have to live with, you must think through all factors, ie do it holistically. One has to trade off the extra cost of the machine against the likely "saving" on after warranty repairs, and I doubt very many people will come out ahead on life-cycle cost by buying a Miele or other high-end brands. People tend to misunderstand the statistics of this. For example, you might hear that expensive machine A has *half* the problems of cheaper machine B. That can mean nothing more than that A has, say, a 2% problem rate while B has a 4% rate (twice as bad). So B is 96% OK and A is 98% OK. Is the actual 2% improvement of this so-called "twice as good" machine worth the extra up-front cost? Think it through before spending all that extra money. And there is nothing exceptional about made-in-the-USA motors that I'm aware of. Does Miele use USA motors? I don't know. They make some of their stuff in the Czech Republic. Is that good or bad? I don't know.

                                                                                          In my case, I bought two mid-line Whirlpools for less than $500 each for my new home. They were shipped to me and installed by the plumber, and have been in fairly heavy service for 1.5 years so far with no repair problems whatsoever. They do a good job (though I had to experiment with which settings to use). Note, for two of them I paid less than half what one Miele would apparently have cost me.

                                                                                          As to Sears, I pointed out that the equipment was good while the service (which would include warranty service) wasn't. So what's your point? And I never said there weren't issues with Bosch.

                                                                                          I agree---don't take my word for it, or yours, but also not Mr. Samurai beer guzzler. Research it from various sources, but most importantly think through the life-cycle costs. The chance there may be a few repairs isn't the end of the world (and there very well may not be any, with any brand). And there are issues other than just reliability that are important, not least of which is up-front cost.

                                                                                          1. re: johnb

                                                                                            It's not just the website owner (Samurai beer guzzler who is an independent appliance repairman) who posts. If you're really interested in perusing the website, you'll see that many of the comments come from homeowners trying to fix broken machines or decide (see below) if the $300 repair is worthwhile. He laments the "throwaway" culture that has led to $400 dishwashers that you replace frequently. And he does point out himself that you get what you pay for. If $2k is too steep, then by all means you can buy 3-4 $500 machines. On the other hand, I think it's worthwhile to know that the Bosch despite the nameplate, isn't any better than machines costing a great deal less (see below). BTW, a lot of complaints for dishwashers are of the "my dishwasher doesn't clean properly" variety.

                                                                                            1. re: mlgb

                                                                                              Well I was referring to his own comments not the posters. I have no 'problem with the "throwaway culture." Its often just easier and better to build stuff from scratch than it is to try to expensively fix it, and as an economist I don't believe in trying to fight economics just because it seems "wasteful" (it isn't--e.g. the $300 repair definitely is not worthwhile). I don't disagree that many expensive machines, Bosch and others, aren't worth the money--that is a point I have often made, and was indirectly making here. And IMO the problem of "my machine doesn't wash properly" is as often due to misprogramming, misuse, and failure to do routine maintenance by owners as to real design issues. I still say they are on the whole better than they used to be, and anyway they all have to meet the same energy/water use criteria.

                                                                                              And he doesn't say "you get what you pay for." If I read him correctly, he says there is a "sweet spot" in pricing around the middle range and that is what he recommends. And that is probably pretty good advice.

                                                                                              1. re: johnb

                                                                                                "And he doesn't say "you get what you pay for." If I read him correctly, he says there is a "sweet spot" in pricing around the middle range and that is what he recommends. And that is probably pretty good advice."

                                                                                                This just makes the most sense to me. I just cannot justify paying $2,000 for a DW. If I am going to spend $2000 on anything it is going to be upgrading my range.

                                                                                                1. re: flourgirl

                                                                                                  Actually I agree with both of you. Sometimes you pay a lot and get crap. Sometimes the high end is worthwhile (as in Miele) and sometimes it isn't. Viking and Bosch would be a good examples of "isn't worth it." And that website is useful if you want to find out what you're in store for, if you search and read the common complaints.

                                                                                                  BTW if you're one to try to fix an appliance yourself, it's also very handy. I was guided to look for a cherry pit in a valve, and sure enough it saved me a DW replacement of my old Whirlpool/Kenmore which works very well, and doesn't have a motor and transmission with a lot of plastic parts.

                                                                                                  1. re: mlgb

                                                                                                    All good info. I would only mention after several months of research, sorting through conflicting reviews, that a low-end Bosch is pretty comparable to the pricing of the long-standing brands. I wouldn't (and didn't) pay $2000 for a dishwasher, either. I'm hoping I didn't make a mistake with the Bosch, but I will find out very soon, as it's being installed next week.

                                                                                        2. re: johnb

                                                                                          We bought a Kenmore front loader washing machine in April. Used it about a dozen times, went back north for the summer, and came back to a washing machine that was not functioning right. We received service from a repairman that was horrible and had to call up a half hour after he left to be told they couldn't send anyone back until Monday (this was Friday). We had to wait until 5PM until someone arrived (supposed to be there between 8 and 12). This guy knew what he was doing, thank goodness, but told us the other guy was a newbie (two years of experience, that is new?), and they don't train them anymore!! I can't begin to tell you the number of appliances we have purchased from Sears, but with this kind of service it will be our last!

                                                                                      2. Hi Candy: I am also looking and not sure whether to fix my Bosch --again -- or buy new since my Bosch is 11 years old now and they want about 300+ to do this new repair for the control panel. Since I am considering selling my home and moving on after 20 yrs here, I was thinking of putting in a newer one, but going back to Kenmore, or something like it. Did I like my Bosch? Well, not really. I guess in 11 years it was ok, but should I have to have called a repairman three times for it? I didn't think so. The repairs are costly, and the repairmen are hard to find for Bosch. I live in Renton, WA so I am close to several big Cities like Seattle.

                                                                                        Also, I had the stainless model and the first thing it did was to stain on the outside top edges -- very weird and no one could say what it was. It was like the stainless had been etched or stained with acid, as the color difference was noticable. I thought perhaps the water and soap may have been the problem, but no one knows.

                                                                                        It was quiet, but just as quiet as my friend's domestic brands. I didn't like that it doesn't dry as fast as the others and it's cycles are so long. Why is that? Remember I've been dealing with it for 11 years. It seems that a shorter cycle would be a greener solution.

                                                                                        My Bosch repairman said also, that you need to leave some residue of food, milk, etc, in the dishwasher for a Bosch to work correctly - no kidding. Something to do with how it cleans. I still scrap and rinse my dishes - it's habit.

                                                                                        So there is my experience. Also, it always sprays me or the floor when I open the door in the cycle. This time it is my controls on the front that have gone out. Wonderful. I'm just thinking spending $300 on it is too much and it's time to replace with a newer one, even if it's $200 more.

                                                                                        Anyone?:

                                                                                        Thanks,

                                                                                        Stacie

                                                                                        2 Replies
                                                                                        1. re: cntrylady

                                                                                          Seriously, get a Miele. My first one lasted over 20 years with 1/2 service calls. Service is responsive & superb, stuff gets fixed the first time. My second Miele, purchased 2 years ago, cleans & dries perfectly. Is silent. I wash my Baccarat wine glasses in it with no problem. Adjustable racks. Third flatware rack which is the best invention since dishwashers themselves. Has a 30-minute cycle (+ plus lots of other cycles I never use!).

                                                                                          Expensive in the short term, cheap in the long term.

                                                                                          1. re: cntrylady

                                                                                            I have that same weird staining on the top piece of my Kitchenaid, it happened right away and I have no idea what it is. Always thought it looked like soap had leaked through the vents up there, very annoying.

                                                                                          2. We bought a bosch 800 series to replace our ASKO. I love the Bosch. It is quiet and get the dishes very clean. I also love the fact that the buttons are hidden as my 3 year old loves to push buttons.

                                                                                              1. re: np2005

                                                                                                We've had our Miele for about a month. My cutlery looks better than new. I love that top cutlery rack....pure genius. It is quiet, holds tall glasses easily in the top rack, and there are lots of placement options, so we can get an awful lot of dishes in there. My last dishwasher was a Bosch, and this is far superior. Can't recommend it highly enough.

                                                                                                1. re: onefineleo

                                                                                                  To onefineleo to another (!!), I am glad to hear your very recent report comparing your new Miele to your former Bosch. We vacillated between the two, and then decided on the Miele (just over a year ago). We are extremely satisfied with our Miele and also love the cutlery rack on top!

                                                                                                  You are quite correct about the placement options, as I am still experimenting and moving dishes around as the load changes. This has been a very fine purchase.

                                                                                              2. After too many years of Kitchenaid blues we bought an LG from a high end shop about three years ago. No troubles so far, Very well designed and quiet, has probably the same drying technology as Bosch (and the five beeps) but cost about half as much. Large capacity, has a very useful 1 hour "quick wash".

                                                                                                1 Reply
                                                                                                1. re: gargantua

                                                                                                  Interesting. Where are you located? In Toronto, LG was about twice the price of Bosch.

                                                                                                2. After buying many dw's in my life I found that price does matter. Bosch is the best by far.

                                                                                                  1. We bought a Bosch at Lowes for like $600-700 dollars at christmas, and we love it. It's infernally quiet, and it cleans excellently.

                                                                                                    Note we did not go for "hidden controls".

                                                                                                    1. What about Asko? That's what we've been looking at and pretty much decided on.
                                                                                                      They run about the same price as the Bosch but come with a 3 year warranty.
                                                                                                      Can you beat that?

                                                                                                      1 Reply
                                                                                                      1. re: PinkieT

                                                                                                        They're kind of notorious for bad electrical components. There might be a reason for that 3-year warranty.

                                                                                                      2. We just purchased the Miele G7856, which is the home version of the commercial dishwasher. It is supposed to do the first load in 15 minutes and each subsequent load in 8 minutes. We bought it instead of a second dishwasher since our kitchen is not that large. Previously, we had a Miele for 10 years (which we gave to a friend and is still going strong), and experienced no problems to speak of. It worked well and was very quiet compared to the other dishwashers we had previously. The plumber will be here today or tomorrow to hook up the dishwasher, and I am very excited to see how well it works!

                                                                                                        3 Replies
                                                                                                        1. re: roxlet

                                                                                                          I am looking at a Miele, and would love to hear how you like yours. We need a new dishwasher, as our Kenmore is really horrible. I would never buy another Sears appliance as their service is just terrible. I am still not sure what to get as there are lots of pros and cons for everything.

                                                                                                          1. re: roxlet

                                                                                                            I'm curious how this worked out for you. We are considering doing the same thing.

                                                                                                            1. re: jmagaram

                                                                                                              We love our professional Miele, but I'm not sure you'll be able to buy one, though maybe if you jump through some hoops. I had the Miele repairman in for the washing machine a couple of weeks ago, and he stopped dead when he saw our Miele Professional dishwasher. "How'd you get that?" he asked. Truthfully, I don't know. Either our kitchen designer or my husband must have jumped through some hoops because they don't sell them for home use. I don't know why not; it's just the best dishwasher ever. The interior is a little small, but since you can do a load in 15 minutes, it's really not a problem. People are shocked at how quickly the dishes get washed. Finish the appetizer or soup, heave the dishes into the dishwasher, and they're done before you've taken a couple of bites of your entree.

                                                                                                          2. Sorry about your Bosch. Gotta say, though I love mine. Got it as a closeout on a prior year for $599.00. Black front/control panel NOT hidden,/ stainless interior/ no delay cycle or top-rack wash only feature. I never pre-rinse the dishes, even tho there's no disposer, and the stuff comes out flawlessly. I like that I can put my Cuise-Parts/ Tupperware wherever I feel like. It uses less than a tablespoon of granules- a small box of cascade lasts for weeks on end. The model # is SHE44C06/40 if that's any help. It's quieter than my cat purring, uses less than 6 gallons per load and energy-star rated to boot. I do miss having a delay-start feature, but nothing's perfect. Adam

                                                                                                            7 Replies
                                                                                                            1. re: adamshoe

                                                                                                              Have been reading all this, including the Samurai debate, and the Kenmore Sears debate, etc., the reason I bought a Bosch is that on numerous sites where people who own the machines rate them, all I heard about under-$600 brands was bad news. The Kenmores took first prize for not getting dishes clean and then breaking, sometimes repeatedly, with terrible customer support to boot. The others like Whirlpool and Maytag had similar problems depending, plus being very noisy. The under-$600 Bosches were the only brand I found that got a clean bill of performance in terms of getting dishes clean well, not being junk in terms of breaking in the first year (Kenmore was I think the MOST unreliable brand I saw according to those who bought them), and being quiet. The people who didn't like Bosch tended to dislike it because of the lack of a heating element to dry dishes.
                                                                                                              I can agree that calling what is nothing more than "drip dry" a fancy name and pretending that the stainless interior somehow helps with condensation is bogus. The stainless interior, according to the manual, condenses moisture because it is cooler than the dishes. But both reasoning ability, and actually touching it after a cycle, verify that it is just as warm as everything else in the dishwasher, and therefore cannot condense anything any better. This would be different *if* they installed heat-sinks or some sort of heat-conducting material on the outside, to draw heat out and thereby cool the stainless faster, or else if they installed special coolant systems to do that, but that second option would cost a lot of energy, and the first option would draw the heat away from the wash water also, and keep it from working well. And anyway, they admit themselves that the tub is well insulated, which means the stainless cannot possibly be cool after running the machine, so the idea that it could somehow "dry" the dishes is really silly. It relies on a rinse agent and the same "drying method" as leaving a dish drainer full of dishes to dry on the counter (they even suggest propping the door ajar with the top rack). But they had to call it something snazzy so people would still be willing to buy a dishwasher that DOESN'T dry dishes for you any more than that dishrack on the counter does. I knew all this when I bought it, but was more than willing to part with essentially running an electric oven every time I ran a dishwasher, and the energy bills that go with it. Sadly, I can't disable the "in-line" water heating... and my model isn't the one with the Eco option of using lower temperature water. Since my house uses hot-water baseboard heat, it seems senseless and wasteful to have electrical at-source water heating as well for the dishwasher.
                                                                                                              So, why am I happy with the BOSCH? Well, since I have only just bought it, I am hoping the reviews are good about it not breaking all the time...but no heating element and no garbage disposal in it are two fewer things to be energy hogs and also to malfunction.
                                                                                                              It also uses less water than I would hand-washing with a pan of suds. So far, it does an EXCELLENT job of washing, and the air-drying assisted by Jet-dry is as good as the old "oven element' dishwasher I had years ago. The oven-element one would leave pools of water in the concavities of cup bottoms too, but at least this way, I am not shelling out to bake the dishes dry and still deal with that.

                                                                                                              As for all the experiences everyone has with trusted brands that lasted 10 and 20 years? Unfortunately none of that counts anymore, because 20 years ago, Kenmore was reliable and Sears was trustworthy, as were many other brands that are no longer. Brands, for the most part, are an illusion, because the original companies have mostly long since been bought-out and conglomerated, and the Kenmore of the 1970's and 1980's is not even related to the Kenmore of today. May as well just call it name licensing. So whether Bosch or Kenmore of Maytag or Whirlpool were reliable and made products that lasted a decade or more, a decade or more ago, seems to be no indicator of the products bearing those names today. I've also noticed that as the price of everything (including plastics) goes up and up, manufacturers are making things progressively flimsier to keep the prices from reflecting the true increases to the consumer. How many of us would be okay with paying $1000 today to get the exact same craftmanship and durability that was the $200 machine a decade ago, if we were to find out that that is what is going on? KitchenAid is a prime example. Stand mixers of that name were once legendary, but if you want one that will last 10 years under constant use today, your best best is a lucky estate sale find, of one that was actually built in the durability era. It may look the same, but horsepower is no indication of how durable the motor is and whether it is going to lose its windings when it heats up under hard use. Heat kills motors. Back in the day, they over-engineered motors so that they were built to withstand much more than the item actually generated under even hard use, but then they realized there was no money to be had in people buying one once and using it pretty much forever, but there was a certain breakover point at which people would get mad if it didn't last long enough, so the profits could be maximized by creating "planned obsolescence" that meant the product would last just long enough to keep people from deciding never to trust that company again. As decades went by, people got used to each new standard for planned obsolescence and even got used to the heavily-marketed idea that having something new was good, even if your old one still worked. And so here we are today, when people no longer feel outraged that a dishwasher probably won't last 10 years. Couple that with hiding the true increases in prices (that's why a "half gallon" of ice cream is 1.75 quarts instead of 2 quarts, and why a "pound" of coffee has shrunk from 16 oz, then to 14 oz, and now averages 12 to 13 oz.: because people respond emotionally to the pricetag rather than the value, so instead of raising the prices as much as they are really increasing, they raise prices a little, and decrease the amount you get a little, and hope people won't notice), and you have people paying far more for much shoddier craftsmanship and materials (or paying far more per oz and just buying smaller packages), and the only thing they are aware of is a diffuse sense of things not being quite right.

                                                                                                              I am also relieved so far that the BOSCH I got was not the latest and greatest, and didn't have the top-rack only feature, or the delayed start feature, or hidden controls, because it appears that latest-and-greatest is once again a sneak-attack of problems, at least from what people are saying. My sis-in-law complains that her Bosch beeps annoyingly and they have a hard time getting it to stop... it probably has the end-of-cycle beep, which again, mine lacks, and I am glad.

                                                                                                              So did I get a great dishwasher at a great price? Probably not in 1980's terms. But if I managed to get one that does a great job, doesn't break down too soon, and is easy to live with until then, for a modest price, I'm happy. It is very quiet, easy to use, and gets the dishes sparkling clean without a food grinder, and gets them as dry as the bake-oven types, without the extra electricity, so long as you can open the door. How it would be for those who want to run it while they are sleeping or at work and come home to dry dishes without having someone there to open it, I don't know. And on rainy days, probably it won't dry so well.

                                                                                                              1. re: megkrichards

                                                                                                                What you said is exactly right. I'm so glad I have a Kitchenaid mixer from the 70s! My husband finally got my new Kitchenaid dishwasher working after pulling it apart a few times, and he's not even sure what exactly he did to fix it. I'm now scraping every plate before I put it in, it seems such a waste of time but I guess it has to be done. You're right, I'm going to appreciate all my old things that I have and never get rid of them if I can help it.

                                                                                                                1. re: megkrichards

                                                                                                                  Report almost a year later: I still love that Bosch Evolution without any bells of whistles except an all-stainless interior. No beep, no lock, but a quiet dishwasher that has been getting my dishes clean sometimes twice a day for nearly a year.
                                                                                                                  And apparently using phosphate-and-chlorine-bleach-laden detergent really isn't necessary... it works just fine with a homemade eco-friendly mix that contains no synthetic detergents, no chlorine, and no phosphates.

                                                                                                                  We shall see whether this machine lives up to a current lukewarm standard of 5 expected years of life without maintenance, or possibly even an extraordinary (by current standards) 10 years. If it gives us trouble before 5 years, that will be a shame.

                                                                                                                  1. re: megkrichards

                                                                                                                    My report a year later: sometimes the dishwasher works and sometimes it doesn't. I just use it when I don't want to see the dirty dishes for 24 hours or so. And it cost around $1200, so next time I'll just get a cheap one.

                                                                                                                    1. re: coll

                                                                                                                      Since this thread popped up again, thought I'd report. I have researched and researched, since I can't afford a new dishwasher nor any repairs right now. I have been using it for storage only until Thanksgiving came around.

                                                                                                                      Based on what I found, first I brushed out the nozzles under the top shelf and did a little more cleaning out, mainly just looking for chunks of food in the bottom drain. I searched out tri sodium phosphate (not hard to find, it's at Home Depot in the paint aisle) and also stocked up on cheap white vinegar. I put the phosphate in the little cup along with Cascade in the big cup, and vinegar in the rinse cup. I pour a big glug of vinegar into the bottom too, just to be sure. I've done four loads in the last week and I think I've cleaned out whatever gunk was lurking in there, because only one or two glasses on top had to be cleaned again. I do tend to stuff it though, and am trying not to put something in every square inch either. Luckily I wasn't someone who uses it everyday, but it's sure nice to have for the holidays!

                                                                                                                      I am actually thinking that NOT using it often enough may just be the problem.

                                                                                                                      1. re: coll

                                                                                                                        Perhaps I should have mentioned Miele taking me through lots of possible taking bits out and checking things on the phone before having to resort to sending out their expensive engineer... I thought that was good, it didn't work but it was a nice touch.

                                                                                                              2. I am an Interior Designer and was so happy to find a 30" dishwasher. Well, for $2400 it better be great! Within the first year the rollers for the rack broke off, the rolling racks rust badly, it is loud and does not do a great job on caked on food. Half the time the soap dispenser has not opened until I open the unit after cleaning....then the soap rolls down the door. To replace the interior parts I had estimates between $900 and $1100 WITHOUT LABOR ($140 minimum). Now they tell me the racks arfe obsolete and won't be made anymore due to a new model coming out in '09. They offered to see me a new one for RUN FOR THE HILLS!

                                                                                                                2 Replies
                                                                                                                1. re: thechamberlins

                                                                                                                  Kitchenaid. LOVE it. Stainless steel inside with adjustable top rack. Holders for wine glasses (always did by hand before). Very quiet. Stainless exterior with only the handle showing on the front (controls are on top of door). Had it 2 years and run it daily (or more when entertaining). Also, where I live it can be serviced when (hopefully, if) the need arises. Think tiny town in north central Nevada.

                                                                                                                  1. re: thechamberlins

                                                                                                                    thechamberlins: What was the brand, so we know to RUN in the opposite direction? Adam

                                                                                                                  2. After doing much research, I settled on Dacor for my new range. It's an Epicure 30 inch dual fuel range. I love everything about it--the looks, the workmanship, the performance, the numerous little features. It's easy to clean and it appears sturdy. Dacor also seems to have a good reputation.

                                                                                                                    1. So glad someone revived this thread as I've spent the past 2 weeks researching dishwashers. We've got a 20 year-old KitchenAid that is working fine, but I know it's going to die one of these days and everyone has dw's on sale now so it seems like a good time to buy.

                                                                                                                      My target dishwasher costs under $700, and does not need too many bells & whistles, but I do want the following features: adjustable top shelf; china/light cycle, and the option not to heat/dry (the KA that I have has an "energy saver" no-heat dry option and I've never used anything else). I am not that concerned about cosmetics -- visible controls are ok, and either black or stainless front. It also needs to have a side-mount option, as we've got granite countertops.

                                                                                                                      Based on reviewing Consumer Reports' reliability data and looking at a lot of dishwashers, I've narrowed it down to Bosch, another Kitchenaid, or Kenmore (which are made by KA/Whirlpool).

                                                                                                                      The Bosch's in my price range seem the most reliable. However, they do not seem to have a gentle/china cycle, but do have a "quick" cycle. Is this the functional equivalent? I have good gold-rimmed bone china, purchased in the 80s, that I want to be able to put in the dw without wrecking the pattern; don't use it that often but usually when entertaining, which is the last situation when I want to be hand-washing dishes. Also, the adjustability of the top shelf is a lot less convenient than the KA & Kenmore's.

                                                                                                                      So I'd really like to hear from Bosch owners on their experience as to the china & top shelf adjustment issues (and anything else that they really like or that bugs them). Also from KA & Kenmore owners on recent reliability experiences. (Consumers Rpts rates KA & Kenmores relatively high on reliability but the anecdotal data on this board seems much more mixed).

                                                                                                                      Candy, what did you get & how do you like it?

                                                                                                                      7 Replies
                                                                                                                      1. re: masha

                                                                                                                        I read in the paper that another portion of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 is due to roll out around November - cash for clunker appliances. It might be worth purchasing a new DW then. I don't have the details of the program - I think this one is supposed to be run by each state individually.

                                                                                                                        1. re: masha

                                                                                                                          I have owned a Bosch now for a couple years and love it. I don't think any of them have heated dryer cycles, mine has a gentle cycle too, and seem to work very well with my china.

                                                                                                                          I have only removed the top shelf once, but it wasn't a big deal. I have never had a need to put it in a different place, but I find the snap down attachments and moveable silverware basket is very handy.

                                                                                                                          1. re: ktmoomau

                                                                                                                            Which model Bosch did you buy? The more expensive ones these days have a gentle cycle, but not the more moderately priced.

                                                                                                                            I'm looking at the SHE4AM16UC and that does not have a cycle labeled "gentle" or "china," but does have a "quick" cycle. I think that gentle/china cycles are typically at a lower temperature, as well as being shorter, but I am not sure about this.

                                                                                                                            1. re: masha

                                                                                                                              I was looking on the website and I can't tell exactly. I think it was the 799 or 899 priced one. I want to say it has 4 options gentle, quick, heavy and general

                                                                                                                          2. re: masha

                                                                                                                            I bought what was a top-of-the-line Kitchen Aid when we did a kitchen renovation in 1997. I loved the machine and its various features; and it was sooo quiet. So when our home was flooded by Katrina, and we had to gut and re-do, I knew I wanted another KA--but I shopped around and researched other brands just to be sure. But I settled on KA (KUDSO3FSSS4), and this newer model has a few additional features, particularly one I love, a third rack (cutlery tray) at the very top that accommodates long knives and meat forks, etc., which is easily removable should you have tall items in the regular top rack. It also has all the features you require, and ours is a sleek stainless model that looks very nice in our kitchen. It is still quiet, but I love setting it to wash at 2 a.m. or so when everyone is asleep and it is working during off-peak consumption hours. The only thing I wasn't happy with is that it has been redesigned so the wineglass guards do not accommodate our wineglasses as well as the old one did, but this is a somewhat silly gripe as wineglasses come in so many sizes and shapes.
                                                                                                                            But I still love it, and if I were shopping again, I'd buy it all over.

                                                                                                                            1. re: nomadchowwoman

                                                                                                                              I've seen this model. It costs way more than I am interested in spending. Agree that has a lot of snazzy features, but I just don't see spending an extra $300 or so for it. But, thanks for the input.

                                                                                                                              1. re: masha

                                                                                                                                We spent just over $700, but that was a over three years ago (and we may have had a $100 rebate, but I'm not sure). As Flourgirl suggests, next month, the cash-for-clunker appliances will be rolled out, so you may be able to get a sizable tax break; you may be able to make a real deal then.

                                                                                                                          3. If you have the money, I would recommend an undercounter commercial dishwasher such as a moyer diebal 501 lt or ht, I am a chef and use one in my house simply since I can do dishes in 90 seconds as oppossed to 90 minutes and by using a high temp machine I us a liquid detergent and rinse from a local chemical company. 1 jug of each at 4l lasts for months. Dishes come out way better than any retail dishwasher and they are properly sanitized which retail dishwasher DO NOT DO. They are expensive however with a used one being about 2-3000 dollars and a new one at 5-9000 dollars. but they last forever in a home environment with no cheap plastic parts that wear out after a year. You do the math, in 15 years you will spend about 4000 dollars on machines and parts and labour not to mention aggrevation. in 15 years I will spend 2500 dollars on machine with no worries of repairs. and it will still be going strong....

                                                                                                                            by the way, if your dishes are not coming out clean, it might not be the dishwasher as the only 3 jobs a dishwasher does is fill/drain water, spray water then use heat to help dry. most problems are you didnt scrape the plates and now the machine arm jets are becoming plugged with debris. Again this is why i use a commercial washer. NO RETAIL DISHWASHER CAN COME CLOSE TO THE RESULTS OF A COMMERCIAL MACHINE, I should know as a chef and now I sell dishwashers too.

                                                                                                                            1 Reply
                                                                                                                            1. re: garythevans

                                                                                                                              Champion Moyer Diebel may be great, I've always wanted an undercounter Hobart but they all are so very expensive!

                                                                                                                            2. We had an expensive Maytag which had racks that rusted apart and failed to clean anymore, so I found this site and looked for a dishwasher that I could love and keep for years. Miele had to win, everyone loves them worldwide. So we have had one for a week and it looks like I have all new dishes and polish my silverware regularly. It has sensible care instructions that probably make it last longer too - like empty the filter basket every 4 months or so. It is very quiet. We compared Bosch with Miele and took our plates to the store with us to try out how they would hold our large heavy plates and bowls. I thought the Bosch was nice looking, and the price was attractive, but when we loaded our plates, the Miele won hands down. With the 3rd rack for cutlery (easy to love) there is so much space.

                                                                                                                              1 Reply
                                                                                                                              1. re: Bluemax

                                                                                                                                As a Miele dishwasher owner, I am very happy to read your favorable report, Bluemax!
                                                                                                                                I liked the upper cutlery rack immediately; now, after using it for 3+ years I like it even more!

                                                                                                                              2. Bosch dishwasher SHE55… Top rack is very poorly designed. I sent a very detailed letter of complaint to the company in Anjou Québec BSH appliances with photos from my old dishwasher, that who did not have that kind of problem. To fit stemware and mugs in there is a real a puzzle that I never imagined possible: it is our 5th dishwasher and I never thought possible to have this problem.

                                                                                                                                I have not received any answer of any kind. Then I called the company in Anjou Qc. There is not an employee who speaks English throughout the company .... My next appliance will not be a Bosch!

                                                                                                                                1. Two months ago I replaced a ten year-old GE that still worked perfectly but the plastic inside was coming off in chunks. I got another GE, this one with stainless steel interior. I never had the slightest problem with the old GE so I hope for the same performance with this one.

                                                                                                                                  2 Replies
                                                                                                                                  1. re: Querencia

                                                                                                                                    My fully integrated Miele is now 10 years old and shows no sign of age. There's no plastic coming off in chunks. The machine continues to run quietly. It's never required servicing. And I'll bet that I'll use it for another 10 years.

                                                                                                                                    1. re: Querencia

                                                                                                                                      You may have just given an answer to a question I have often asked myself, which is "why is a stainless steel tub worth paying more money, when the dishes wash just as well in one with a plastic tub." Then again, how often does this problem arise, and could it be due to using the "wrong" detergent? I have no idea. Anyway, in spite of the "good old days" mentalility that is often seen, I think 10 years is long enough---in general, it seems to me the superior performance and greater efficiency/lower operating cost of newer machines more than justifies replacing a DW by the 10-year mark.

                                                                                                                                    2. After leaving my Miele at our last house which died after 5 years and had to pay Miele's silly repair prices I decided to go for something different. As we have a kitchen/sitting/dining room silence is important with triple A rating a given (what's the point without that?).
                                                                                                                                      I haven't got it yet but as I am buying Kuppersbusch hob, ovens and they do a deal with 3 aplliances getting a 5 year warranty, I went with their dishwasher as well. It is deeper than most so I can stack extra high top and bottom and it is super silent. Downside is with discounts costing about £1K.

                                                                                                                                      1. Update 3 years after I got the Bosch: It works quite well still, except that the door latch had to be replaced, and also, the very quiet operation became, after many months, still reasonably quiet, but quite a bit less quiet than it originally was. Still, not loud like old dishwashers used to be.

                                                                                                                                        I'm happy with it, overall, but disappointed that the door latch had to be replaced, and also that I now have to pry it open from sticking my fingers in the crack in the top, because the plastic part where there is a nook for your fingers, to open it, actually cracked from the strain of being repeatedly pulled in the manner that it was purportedly designed to withstand. After 3 years.

                                                                                                                                        I think anyone looking for a good anything, ought to be cautious. Even appliances that people had great success with that they bought 10 years ago, aren't the same reliable appliance, today. 10 years ago, some of those companies were still American. Now, they are all bought and licensed brands owned by conglomerates with factories in China that crank out whatever brand names they are supposed to, and things that lasted 10 years, 10 years ago, are lasting 3 years or less, today.

                                                                                                                                        I got in on an Oster Classic beehive blender for about $80 15 years ago. Blended ice with it for 10 years with no problems til it lost a winding or two from the motor, but still did the job. Finally the plastic cuff to the jar cracked when I dropped the whole glass jar on the kitchen floor...it bounced. The glass didn't break, but the cuff cracked. Went to replace the cuff, and all I could get anywhere, was a cheesy shiny thin flimsy plastic part that fit, but was made of a plastic that couldn't withstand the tensile strain of being twisted on, and cracked in 3 weeks. Bought another, screwed it on more gently, and weeks later, same cracking apart.

                                                                                                                                        I now have a functional blender I can't use for lack of a replaceable part that I cannot get with even decent enough quality to last more than a few measly weeks. And I read about $200 blenders that might make the grade from Cook's Illustrated...if they stand the test of time. If. So I am intimidated from spending money on a blender even though I need one, because I fear there is no getting out of throwing money down rathole after greedy corporate wasteful rathole.

                                                                                                                                        9 Replies
                                                                                                                                        1. re: megkrichards

                                                                                                                                          I think it would be interesting if consumers starting rejecting all these electronic applicances at some point, and just doing without rather than all the hassle. Not that hard to wash your own dishes, or find another way to blend your liquids, really.

                                                                                                                                          1. re: coll

                                                                                                                                            I have a chronic pain condition so it is too much to wash up manually. And from way back in the 70's I could tell just by how clean peoples crockery and cutlery was whether or not they had a dishwasher,,,,,

                                                                                                                                            1. re: coll

                                                                                                                                              Just about do that now. Have a top of the line KA dishwasher that we installed about 7 yrs ago. If the dishes aren't spotless going in they don't come out clean. Use the DW more for drying than washing. Piece of garbage. I will never buy a KA again.

                                                                                                                                              1. re: scubadoo97

                                                                                                                                                My mom bought a top of the line KA about 6 yrs ago. Same thing with hers, you have to wash the dishes before you put them in the DW. It has also required 3 very expensive repairs, two of which were for a sprung door which basically involves a shoestring as part of the operating mechanism. And KA's customer service is absolutely horrendous. I

                                                                                                                                            2. re: megkrichards

                                                                                                                                              I had the same problem with a Bosch and that was over 25 yeas ago, it was also 3 years old when it happened and Bosch no longer could get hold of the part.... Haven't bought another Bosch product since.
                                                                                                                                              With things like blenders it is possibly more econimic to buy cheap ones and just replace when they die. Might be worth doing a spread sheet on it.

                                                                                                                                              1. re: megkrichards

                                                                                                                                                Bosch makes its dishwashers in Georgia (the US), not China

                                                                                                                                                1. re: megkrichards

                                                                                                                                                  Is that plastic part the same as a standard Oster blender? If so you can just go to a thrift store a d buy an entire blender for little money and get the part that way. I have also seen a few of the Oster beehive blenders, but not too often.

                                                                                                                                                  1. re: John E.

                                                                                                                                                    And of course, you needn't bother with changing the part -- just throw away your old blender and use the one you just bought at the thrift store!

                                                                                                                                                  2. re: megkrichards

                                                                                                                                                    We've got an Oster Classic beehive blender, too. Go to Goodman's website for replacement bakelite bases for your blender container. Also check out the ice crusher blades--it's like getting a whole new blender! I've had to replace two glass containers--I drop them--and settled for a lighter, plastic one. Very satisfied, even though I'm noticing that after a couple of years of using it for smoothies with ice cubes the container is scratched. That said, I haven't dropped it (yet).

                                                                                                                                                  3. i would think about repairs... i have a dacor cooktop, purchased 10 years ago, and, while i have no complaints i realize it will be a pain to repair when the time comes. i have a bosch dishwasher which has never let me down, and would be easy enough to repair when the time comes.. i've sworn that i'm buying all sears equipment when i remodel - just so i can get repair service where we live!

                                                                                                                                                    27 Replies
                                                                                                                                                    1. re: rmarisco

                                                                                                                                                      I'm not sure that strategy will work very well, tho. Sears doesn't manufacture their own stuff. Rather, they're made by other manufacturers (mostly Whirlpool, but I don't think exclusively), so in 10 or 15 years, you may still have parts availability issues.

                                                                                                                                                      1. re: ricepad

                                                                                                                                                        Sears has a huge installed base, so even if Sears corporate went away, somebody will be there to take over and supply parts. And since Kenmore is a very valuable franchise, it will very likely be around even if Sears itself isn't -- somebody will buy the name, the manufacturing contracts, and the parts and keep on going with it ("Kenmore Appliance Centers"). Anyway, since the machines are mostly identical mechanically to the Whirlpool (and any other) models made by the companies that supply Sears, the needed parts will be there in the normal course of events. I wouldn't worry about parts. Appliance brands are bought and sold all the time, and they just keep going.

                                                                                                                                                        1. re: johnb

                                                                                                                                                          All true, but my point is that a Kenmore appliance won't have any better parts availability than a similar vintage Whirlpool....and Whirlpool parts can be hard to come by after 10-15 years.

                                                                                                                                                          1. re: ricepad

                                                                                                                                                            And that may be true. But if it is, it's likely to be true of other brands as well, so it doesn't really add much to the decision process. Further, any DW that's that old probably should be replaced anyway -- I know many folks here and elsewhere wax eloquent about their old (insert brand name here) appliances that "still work well," but what they are often overlooking, and may in many cases not be aware of, is that those old appliances are often extremely inefficient compared to new ones, and the extra cost they are unknowingly paying out, e.g. for extra energy, extra water, etc., is greater than the cost of a new machine. I see no reason to not expect there will be continued efficiency improvement in home appliances in years to come, meaning that whatever one buys today it will be obsolete in 10-15 years anyway.

                                                                                                                                                            Sometimes they really do build them better than they used to, even though it's seldom fashionable to think that or say it.

                                                                                                                                                            1. re: johnb

                                                                                                                                                              We have a Frigidaire DW that is at least 20 yrs old, probably older (i've never bothered to check it) and there is NO way I'm replacing it until it breaks down. In the 16 yrs we've been in this house, I've never had to repair it. Not once. We have well water, so we don't pay for water and I only run it when it's full. For three people, that means it only runs about 3 times a week, so it's energy and water usage is negligble. Besides that, we live in a small house, so our energy usage is fairly low any way. In my view, it absolutely does not pay to replace a perfectly good appliance with a brand new one until the old one stops running.

                                                                                                                                                              1. re: flourgirl

                                                                                                                                                                Older DWs use far more water than newer ones, and that is hot water. You are paying to heat all that extra water, and the cost is not negligible. You mention you have a well -- that suggests you live in a rural area and perhaps use either electricity or propane to heat water -- both of those have become lots more expensive recently, and are going to continue up. You can with some trouble do the calculations and see how much energy cost saving a new machine would bring. Many if not most folks with 20-year old DWs would pay for new ones fairly quickly based on energy savings. Not to mention helping out with carbon footprint issues. So yes it can and often does pay to replace a "perfectly good" appliance even before it quits on its own.

                                                                                                                                                                It's a little like CFL bulbs. It's better to throw out your perfectly "good" old bulbs and replace them with CFLs -- even though CFLs are expensive, you can save lots of money over their lifespan, depending of course on how many hours per year you burn a particular bulb.

                                                                                                                                                                1. re: johnb

                                                                                                                                                                  We use natural gas to heat our water. And just one single repair on a new machine would wipe out any of those dubious savings. I'm sticking to my story.

                                                                                                                                                                  As for CFL bulbs, I use very few of them. They are dangerous to have in your home AND they don't always last nearly as long as advertised. We stocked up on incandescent bulbs, enough to last us a very very long time...

                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: johnb

                                                                                                                                                                    Oh, JohnB, you must be a lot younger than I am! When I go back to the "old homestead", we still use a Maytag washing machine that has a tank for agitation and a roller to squeeze out the water! This thing was designed for septic systems, and I will put its water efficiency against anything modern! You can do numerous loads of laundry with two tanks of water. Hang to dry. And THAT'S efficiency! I still love these machines. My cousin says she gets several calls a year from people who want to buy them. Yeah, they're antiques, but they really clean well and conserve water and energy.

                                                                                                                                                                    When I lived in the Bay Area in the 70s we had a drought and were rationed. Marin County 7 gallons per person per day. I was lucky, I got 33 gallons per day. I can wash my dishes in 2 basins of water. We all learned about efficiency. Nowadays people in some parts of the country are retrofitting their homes in order to use their grey water, we here in the southwest are particularly sensitive to this issue.

                                                                                                                                                                    That said, I love my new Whirlpool dishwasher. I hope it's more efficient than the old GE, it says so and who am I to challenge their claim? I agree, if it ain't broke don't fix it, because the most energy is spent manufacturing the new one (and recycling the old one if in fact it doesn't wind up in a landfill). However, if you can see signs of wear other than the immediate problem, it's probably better to replace it. This is one of those "might as well" situations, kind of like remodeling!

                                                                                                                                                                    It makes me cringe to throw out something that still works, including light bulbs. Why not wait a few months? And if you're talking years to wear out that bulb, then it's not consuming much energy in the first place, is it? Replace the energy hogs that you really use a lot, but please consider the manufacturing costs for appliances before you discuss how efficient the new ones are. Remember, the one you have was made long ago and that energy is probably already "amortized."

                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: blaireso

                                                                                                                                                                      <<<<<Oh, JohnB, you must be a lot younger than I am!>>>>

                                                                                                                                                                      If you only knew! I won't get too specific, but let's just say I shot through the traditional retirement age several years back.

                                                                                                                                                                      <<<<It makes me cringe to throw out something that still works, including light bulbs. Why not wait a few months?>>>>

                                                                                                                                                                      The answer to that is the same as I said last December, a few posts up. Old designs, whether refrigerators, light bulbs, dishwashers, and so on all are inefficient (ie wasteful) of energy and are thus costly to operate. Because of the high energy/operating costs, it's often far more expensive to hang on to them than it is to replace them, which is better for your pocketbook as well as the earth. Your idea that much energy is used to manufacture them is simply wrong -- if it were true, that would be reflected in the price, but it just isn't there. One needs to do the calculation in each case, but it's frequently better to replace them. The older they are the more likely that that's true. With regard to bulbs, there's no question -- hanging on to incandescent bulbs is foolish, and stocking up on them is lunacy (apologies to flourgirl, but that's just a fact).

                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: blaireso

                                                                                                                                                                        My grandmother got a 'modern' washer/dryer sometime in the 1960s but she kept using her old Maytag wringer/washer for over a decade. She would swing it out on the tiled basement floor and hook the hose up to the deep cement sink and wash, wring, and hang her clothes out to dry. In the winter, she hung the clothes from a cord going across the basement. My uncle used to say the biggest benefit of her using the old Maytag was that she could wash clothes and the floor at the same time.

                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: John E.

                                                                                                                                                                          Yes! That's exactly what we do! (Except for the floor washing, that is, ours doesn't seem to splash that much.)
                                                                                                                                                                          Nice memories, eh?

                                                                                                                                                                  2. re: johnb

                                                                                                                                                                    "Sometimes they really do build them better than they used to, even though it's seldom fashionable to think that or say it."

                                                                                                                                                                    Please list examples where that is really true.

                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: laraffinee

                                                                                                                                                                      Having been married since the early 70s, I really doubt that appliances are better now, except maybe as energy savers perhaps. I am SO glad that I held onto most of mine.

                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: laraffinee

                                                                                                                                                                        As I have discussed above, it's certainly true with respect to energy use/cost, and that applies over a wide range of things we buy, appliances, bulbs, cars, electronics, and others. It's true with respect to better performance, increased convenience, greater capability, more pleasing design, and so on for a wide range of hard goods. Now if your main criterion to make the judgement is that the metal used to be thicker or that service calls are more frequent than they used to be, you're entitled to your beliefs about the facts and their implications. But to me the judgement of whether things are better now needs to be based on a wider range of parameters. My judgement is that, all things considered, the products we buy today are better than they were before.

                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: johnb

                                                                                                                                                                          John, my Amana refrigerator needed a new condenser after 7 years. Repairman had to cut a hole in the back of the appliance, no access designed into the unit. Talk about planned obsolescence. At year 12, two months ago, it needed a new evaporator coil. Other than that, it's still working just fine. My DH likes the extra cold beverage compartment in the door. My issue with this appliance is that it should have been designed for repair, not replacement. We don't have the money to just throw out something that is still useful. I'm not talking about replacing a set of sheets or a lamp, this is an expensive appliance! I acknowledge the truth that new models are more efficient, newest style (although that changes), and probably better for resale, but replacement isn't always the highest and best use of one's resources.

                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: blaireso

                                                                                                                                                                            <<<<We don't have the money to just throw out something that is still useful>>>>

                                                                                                                                                                            Then you apparently have even more money to throw away on larger-than-necessary electric bills, because that's likely what you're doing. Replacement often is the highest and best use of one's resources, since it quickly returns those resources to you and keeps on giving.

                                                                                                                                                                        2. re: laraffinee

                                                                                                                                                                          How about cars, airplanes, televisions, radios, computers, cell phones, and dishwashers, to name a few.

                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: laraffinee

                                                                                                                                                                            Maybe he's talking about stuff made in the 80s and 90s, not the 50s!

                                                                                                                                                                  3. re: rmarisco

                                                                                                                                                                    We will never use Sears for appliances again. We purchased a garage door opener and paid to have them install it. The installer determined that the unit was broken, so he called Sears and they were supposed to call us back. After 3 days, my husband called and they claimed that there was no such repair order on our opener, so we went to the Sears store that we purchased it from. We explained the situation to the sales clerk, who then called Service himself. He was literally on the telephone with them for 3 hours and the only solution they had was that we had to dismantle what was installed (most of the installation was complete, it just required a small part to finish the installation), bring it into the store, and we would be given a replacement opener and we could again schedule installation.

                                                                                                                                                                    At this point, I was livid--we were being treated as though we were trying to put something over on them, so my response was NO, I will NOT leave this store and jump through those hoops when THEIR installer called and told them what the issue was. I had to walk away from that area and left my husband to deal with them. Within a few minutes, he found me and said that the sales clerk went ahead and refunded our money and told us that we did not have to return the non-working garage door opener. Hallelujah! One other point, the department manager was wondering around the area the whole time and NEVER spoke to us--he did chat the sales person once when we were a few feet away, but ignored us completely. I was so angry by the time I realized who he was, that I would not be able to be civil to him, so I did not confront him and my husband avoids confrontation at almost any cost (he's a police officer and gets enough of that at work, I believe).

                                                                                                                                                                    I told this story to a guy at work and he said that when he and his wife bought their new house in 2003, she insisted on all Sears appliances. Since that time, he has had to repair every single one of them.

                                                                                                                                                                    We will never buy any appliance from Sears again. And, oh yes, our Kenmore refrigerator regularly leaks quite a bit of water on our floor and the Kenmore dishwasher works well, but all of the racks have rust on parts of them.

                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: stecworld

                                                                                                                                                                      I have heard (and read) so many horror stories over the years about Sears and their horrendous customer service that I'm really surprised that they're still able to sell any appliances at all. I would never buy an appliance from them.

                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: flourgirl

                                                                                                                                                                        Sorry - but I must disagree. You can't generalize re: Sears delivery/customer service.

                                                                                                                                                                        We had a new fridge, electric range, & dishwasher delivered by Sears just a few weeks ago, & the Sears delivery guys couldn't have been nicer, more competent, more careful, & better at cleaning up after themselves if they tried. And we tipped them well for their services.

                                                                                                                                                                        In addition, the salesman at Sears couldn't have been nicer or fairer while describing BOTH the pros & cons of each model we looked at. AND he went above & beyond to search out every possible discount we were eligible for - one of which we weren't aware of that saved us an extra 10% on all 3 appliances.

                                                                                                                                                                        You may want to think again before automatically believing everything you "have heard (and read)" about Sears before coming to a conclusion that doesn't include your own first-hand experience.

                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: Bacardi1

                                                                                                                                                                          Sorry, but I believe in learning from other people's mistakes. It has saved me a lot of trouble over the years. And good for you that you had such a good experience with them...so far. But the point is that Sears has a terrible track record for customer service when stuff goes wrong. THAT's the part that concerns me. Do a google search for yourself and you'll see what I mean. I'm sure they are oh so helpful and informative when they are SELLING the appliance. But it's how they treat their customers AFTER the sale goes wrong that counts. I prefer giving my business to a locally owned and operated appliance store that stands behind the products they sell.

                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: flourgirl

                                                                                                                                                                            I actually like to buy from Sears, primarily because of their support of our national guardsmen employees. One of the few who guarantees them a job when they return. So I always check that store first, and then do the math for local stores. I like that they have a wide selection, the salesmen I've talked to seem pretty knowledgeable and can show me other models I hadn't considered, and there's one in my town. If there wasn't, they wouldn't be on the list. We bought our dw from RC Willey, who is also a chain but not as large, had a good price, delivery & installation, and took away the old one. Ours was complicated because the old dw had leaked and we had mold and eventually had to re-drywall the entire kitchen island, so there were several stages and the installer was really cooperative. Since we worked with a subcontracted installer, a small business, they had the flexibility that Sears probably wouldn't have had without incurring additional trip charges, etc. IMHO, money talks, bullsh** walks! If you pay more, you expect more in the way of service, and I'm not sure the Sears service and installation departments still have the attitude of going the extra mile.

                                                                                                                                                                        2. re: flourgirl

                                                                                                                                                                          Those horror stories are probably true. I haven't spent a nickel at Sears in more than 25 years because of their mishandling of the repair of my washing machine.

                                                                                                                                                                        3. re: stecworld

                                                                                                                                                                          Wow - that's such a shame.

                                                                                                                                                                          We've had nothing but Sears appliances for 15 years now & have never been more pleased. In fact, we just 2 weeks ago replace our 15-year-old fridge, range, & dishwasher with new ones, because they were all on their last legs. But I consider 15 years a decent lifespan.

                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: stecworld

                                                                                                                                                                            Just had a washer and dryer (Kenmores, made and rebadged by LG) delivered by Sears. It was free delivery. The delivery guys were lowest-bidder private contractors hired by Sears. Long story short, the water hose wasn't fastened securely and a lot of the noise-reduction plastic parts were not installed. The units were not leveled and they left all the packaging plastic and tape on the 2 units. I had requested the dryer door to be mounted on the opposite side, but was told by the delivery guys that "this model couldn't do this" (right...) I had to essentially re-do the entire installation to my satisfaction (not a big deal, I'm handy) and Sears eventually gave me a $50 gift card for my troubles of cleaning a wet laundry room floor and remounting a dryer door and such. And if it wasn't for my years of working in high tech, I wouldn't have been able to understand the nice woman (albeit with an extremely thick accent) I was talking to from Hyderabad on the phone when complaining about all of this.

                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: HungWeiLo

                                                                                                                                                                              Unfortunately this is more common than not, and Sears' reputation has suffered because of it.

                                                                                                                                                                        4. I responded in 2008. It's now four years later. The Miele dishwasher just keeps trucking along. The cleaning has been superb. It's still just as quiet. Sometimes it has a "swampy" water smell, but that's when I haven't used it for 3 to 4 weeks (I travel a lot). Washing on the sani-cycle resolves that problem. I would buy it again (but with a china/crystal cycle although the Zweisel Tritan stemware has held up just fine along with the Ikea glasses - phosphate-free detergent probably mitigates crazing).

                                                                                                                                                                          1. We bought a middle-of-the-road KitchenAid from our local appliance dealer. We probably could have gotten it cheaper elsewhere and installed ourselves (they really aren't that difficult to install) but the local dealer is family owned and operated, they provide good service, and are located less than 2 miles from our house.

                                                                                                                                                                            1. My KA gave out after more than 25 years, Local appliance store with very knowledgeable sales staff recommended Bosch. When delivered it didn't quite fit. A Blomberg model would fit and so the Bosch was exchanged for it. Much quieter than the old KA and has worked beautifully for over 5 months. Checking on the company it turns out that Blomberg was a German company which was bought out by a Turkish firm and now manufactured in Turkey. That accounts, I presume, for the lower than expected price. Substantial savings over Bosch.. You should check out the Blomberg dishwashers

                                                                                                                                                                              11 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: amrx

                                                                                                                                                                                AMRX, your mentioning that your new Bosch would not fit the hole for your old KA is an important point. We replaced our old KA dw about 2 years ago with a new KA. Kudos to the saleswoman at the store where we purchased the new DW (Abt in Northbrook, IL) for specifically confirming with me that the size of the new washer would fit the space. It was an issue that I was already alerted to but very appreciative that the saleswoman made the effort.

                                                                                                                                                                                (And, btw, the new KA has performed just fine. Much quieter than the old one. My only gripe is that the shelf configurations are not quite as easy to use, as the old KA -- especially the top shelf -- but this seems endemic to all newer models).

                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: masha

                                                                                                                                                                                  At the local store, the KA sells very well but is edged out by the store's best seller, a Bosch model. I'm very impressed by the Blomberg and thought it worth mentioning in this string..

                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: masha

                                                                                                                                                                                    I have to whole hartedly agree, our new KA is quieter than our old KA which was very quiet and about 20 years old and still working fine when replaced (didn't match new appliances). We also find the new rack configuration less user friendly than the old racks on the older unit. And yes, that seems to be endemic to all the new models. This is our 3rd KA dish washer in about 32 years of home ownership. We moved away from the first one after 10 years, replaced the second one about a year ago, and have always been quite pleased with the performance and durability.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Wish I could say the same for the new Electrolux fridge. Less than a year old and compressor went out. I have the one it replaced in the laundry room, it's 22 years old and an upright freezer in the garage that's 30 years old that I've never spent a dime on.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I also want to comment on the "newer is better" assertion from above. When the repairman was out for the fridge, he noticed our new Electrolux Icon gas range. He commented on the fancy electronic ignition and how a standing pilot uses so little fuel it probably comes to $3 a year, but if the electronic ignition goes out, you're out a couple of hundred. Do the math, how many years can I pay an extra $3 for natural gas before it costs more than one electronic ignighter? Is that really better?

                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: mikie

                                                                                                                                                                                      Since it was I who made the original remark about things being better now, allow me to respond to your point. Two things: One, the pilot light aspect is at most a very minor contributor to the expected life cycle cost of a range. Second, the last place I would look to for reliable information about appliance cost trade-offs is a repair tech; my experience is that they often think they know everything but in fact actually understand very little outside of their immediate area of fixing things, especially with respect to design innovations.

                                                                                                                                                                                      About your old refrigerators, which you assert you've "never spent a dime on." Rest assured, if you have them plugged in, you are spending many dimes on them. The annual electricity cost of an average 20+ yo refrigerator is $150, more or less depending on specifics, while a comparable new unit costs about $50. (See link below). You can pay back the cost of a new one pretty quickly (of course you can also spend an extra $700 for gimcrackery features but that's a separate issue -- you can buy one that has features comparable to the old one for a lot less).

                                                                                                                                                                                      Dishwashers built before 1994 typically cost an average of $40 more in annual utility costs than those built since, again depending on various specifics about your particular situation.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Here is a link to a calculator for energy and life-cycle costs for old and new refrigerators:

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?f...

                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: johnb

                                                                                                                                                                                        Oh no! Not a whole $40 dollars more a year!!! Oh, let me run right out and pay hundreds of dollars for a new machine to replace my 20 yr old machine that still runs perfectly well. Yeah, THAT makes sense.

                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: flourgirl

                                                                                                                                                                                          It certainly might. You have to make the right comparison.

                                                                                                                                                                                          You're likely to have to replace that machine in a few years anyway, and you will have to spend the money. Therefore the saving from waiting is only the interim return on the money that you will eventually have spend anyway, less whatever the increase in prices is from now until then. Let's say the machine costs $500. What return do you get on your savings these days -- 1% maybe if you're lucky? That would be $5 per year on $500. $5 is a lot less than even $40, and the savings may be more. Not to mention the convenience of doing it when you want rather than when you're forced to, which for example may allow you the luxury of waiting to get one on a deep sale price rather than paying more for it when yours is shot and you need to act quickly.

                                                                                                                                                                                          These decisions are not so clear cut and simple.

                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: johnb

                                                                                                                                                                                            But once again, you don't take into consideration the cost of repairs. What I'm seeing after doing a ton of research is that there isn't a single brand out there that a whole lot of people haven't had a whole lot of headaches with. So I would be exchanging a known machine that has not needed a single repair in the 16 yrs I have lived in this home with a new machine with a dubious track record.

                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: flourgirl

                                                                                                                                                                                              The fallacy of your research is the self-selection bias that characterizes all open forums. People who do have problems post in them to vent, and those who haven't are silent. Similar problem with inquiring from repairmen, since they only see the ones with problems and not the others, and don't have any idea about relative sales in the first place which is needed to predict reliability. Only way to get good info is places that collect info from all buyers and track them over time, but nobody really does that, even Consumers (which mostly uses surveys of subscribers who also self-select to respond to them). Maybe J D Power, but I don't know if they do much with appliances.

                                                                                                                                                                                              Another effect of this bias is that it is the largest sellers will tend to have the most complaints, even if they actually have better reliability records.

                                                                                                                                                                                              I suspect that most machines of all brands compile repair records similar to yours. If so, needing repairs is, by and large, the outlier, not the norm. But it's an interesting question.

                                                                                                                                                                                              In any case, if you're happy with your machine, more power to you. Maybe it's the right decision, maybe not. Maybe time will tell, but likely we'll never know. But what is certain is that you are giving yourself a (roughly) $40/year handicap. It's your money.

                                                                                                                                                                                          2. re: flourgirl

                                                                                                                                                                                            I don't understand why someone would choose to add to our landfill instead of repairing something that could have more good performance left. If the thing is starting to fail, and you've had more than minor repairs, you have to do the math yourself and decide if it's worth it. Are you going to remain in your home for another 5-7 years? Are there other parts that look like they may fail in 1-2 years? Do you like the design and performance? Will replacing it require modification to your cabinet or plumbing? Are parts readily available for your current model and the one you are considering buying? Everyone has different situations. IMHO, I don't believe in throwing things out unless there are compelling reasons to do so.

                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: blaireso

                                                                                                                                                                                              Your last sentence is the key. The question is, what constitutes compelling? To me, it's capturing the lowest life-cycle cost, moderated by (1) any difference in performance that is meaningful to oneself, (2) reduction in risk particularly of sudden failure that leads to any inconvenience/high cost associated with a hasty fix, and (3) any socially beneficial element such as less waste of energy/water for example that may not itself be captured by the rates in force but that one chooses to do anyway as a contribution to the social good. The point I was trying to make in the exchange above is that simply comparing the cost of a repair with a new machine fails to provide the information needed to make a good decision. Throwing things out that still work may very well be the best decision, or it may not, but one cannot know by using simplistic approaches without considering the various future costs/ramifications of both strategies. To your credit you pointed out several valid ramifications, but didn't address the issue of life-cycle cost.

                                                                                                                                                                                              BTW I don't believe these things end up in landfills -- old appliances get scrapped like old cars and eventually are recycled into new steel.

                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: johnb

                                                                                                                                                                                                So true, try putting anything metal by the curb for the garbageman and it will be gone within the hour.

                                                                                                                                                                                  2. We've been Sears Kenmore appliance fans for the past 15 years & still love them. Just bought a new one 2 weeks ago (the "Elite" model), & so far it's doing a sterling job.

                                                                                                                                                                                    1. Funny you should ask. At this very minute I am sitting here with two GE service guys working in my kitchen on my POS dishwasher. It is not yet two years old and has been issuing so-called clean dishes that have food stuck all over them. Bulletin from the front: the men say the problem is that my filter was clogged, interfering with water supply and pressure. He advises switching from powdered Cascade, which I have used successfully for about fifty years, to individual detergent "pills", and using Dishwasher Magic several times a year to clean the filter. So I politely paid him and will follow his suggestions, but next time I will not buy another GE---time to upgrade. BTW the manual that came with this crappy GE DW says on the front cover that warranty information will be found on page 24---but the manual has only 22 pages and I think maybe that tells the GE story pretty well.

                                                                                                                                                                                      4 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: Querencia

                                                                                                                                                                                        I've had a GE for several years now and have run into the clogged filter problem. Not that big of deal once you've cleaned it before. Mine doesn't have any sort of garbage disposal built in, so it's important to make sure most of the bits of foods are cleaned off the plates first before dumping in the wash. I recently participated in the heating element recall and they had a service guy out within a day's time to replace the element for free. Other than that, it's been working OK. I probably will upgrade to a Bosch in our future home.

                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: spinn1

                                                                                                                                                                                          The filter problem is why we made sure to get a new DW with a garbage disposal built in.

                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: John E.

                                                                                                                                                                                            Yes, something to definitely worth having when it comes time to upgrade.

                                                                                                                                                                                        2. re: Querencia

                                                                                                                                                                                          I also had a GE Profile dw for 12 years and hated it every second. I had to wash the dishes before loading them--I mean all soil removed! And forget about chapstick or lipstick on glasses! Our water softener broke and we didn't fix it for a year, and during that time I noticed that everything was getting a white film coating. When I switched from Cascade to Finish the white film went away, including what I had assumed was etching from too much soap in the softened water.

                                                                                                                                                                                          New dw is a Whirlpool and I'm thrilled with it! I also read all the comments and agree with the crapshoot theory. I don't know if I'm extremely happy as a result of having dealt with a terrible dw before, or if the Whirlpool is just a really good model. One thing I didn't get that I wish I had is a solid food disposer, I thought it might be just one more thing to go wrong in the future and I don't mind pre-rinsing since we don't use it daily. The other thing I really like that I thought I wouldn't is the utensil basked on the door. Once I figured out how to load it I realized it keeps everything separated so you can keep all forks together, etc. and unloading is a snap. And the door rack will accommodate spatulas and other tall items that I used to have to lay on top. It handles glasses with lipstick and other dried on material like juice, and I've tried with increasingly dirty and dried on food to see what it's "red line" is. So far, no problem. Filter is really accessible, easy to clean. And so much more quiet!

                                                                                                                                                                                        3. We just bought a new Kitchen Aid DW during the Black Friday sale at Best Buy to replace our POS DW that came with our house when we bought it 3 years ago. Love the KA so far -- much bigger than the old one, and so much quieter. It cleans amazingly well too.

                                                                                                                                                                                          8 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: boogiebaby

                                                                                                                                                                                            Yeah our Kitchenaid worked fine for a year or so, then it became a storage cabinet around the time the warranty ended. The quiet part mysteriously disappeared around the same time as the cleaning issues too. Hope you have better luck.

                                                                                                                                                                                            And my detective work indicates that the new detergents may very well be a big part of the problem.

                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: coll

                                                                                                                                                                                              Tee-hee -Our Ka is a total piece of trash too.
                                                                                                                                                                                              We've had three service calls on it in three years. The second time the board fried, the repairman told us to not fix the soap dispenser which sometimes fries along with the board. he said to just leaave it dead, and start using the tabs for detergent. If we threw them on the bottom, when we turned it on, it would be just fine (and it has been.)The third time the board fried, I asked him why it keeps frying, and he said plain and simply "because it's a piece of garbage." It was hilarious. He then showed me where the board fried, and all the other places the inside parts were burnt and melted. He then told me he goes on the exact same service call all the time. The company cheaped out on insulation and shielding, and the inside parts are constantly frying. He told me the secret: Stop using the drying cycle. He also said it's a nice looking machine, but it's a shame it's such a piece of garbage. He then also told me that it was an extra shame since he knows I spent a pretty penny on it. I'll never get a KA again. I'll just get one from the company that makes theirs - whirlpool or frigidaire or whatever, and save several hundred bucks. My machine has some nice features on it, but, it was a waste of $. Could have had a cheaper one that might not have turned out to be so cheap inside. I was very thankful the repairman gave me the skinny on it. My KA fridge was also a bad choice. I works just fine, but the drawers is where they obviously skimped out to make more money for themselves. They are flimsy and twist when you use them, so you have to jiggle them to open and close most of the time. Looks nice, has nice features, but it's obvious where they are making their money. Live and learn.

                                                                                                                                                                                              And, another thing about dishwasher boards frying. There was a massive recall on several models from several brands. Web it up if you have not heard about it. Sadly, my machine was not on the list, though it sounds like it could be eerily similar. In some cases, the machines were frying when they weren't even in use -and ppls' houses were buring down.

                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: gordeaux

                                                                                                                                                                                                I refused to call a repairman, my husband tried to fix it and failed (he's usually really good at fixing anything) and then I gave up, since I don't use it every day. Thanks for giving me all that info that I would have paid hundreds of dollars for and still had a piece of junk; exactly what I figured! Didn't seem like anything simple. Oh and I always use Energy Saver Dry so don't even think I fried anything. We;ve had it ten years now so hopefully it won't go up in flames at this point, to add insult to injury.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Luckily I picked an Amana fridge since the one we bought in our previous house was pretty good, except for being noisy after awhile (weak motor bracket, I had the old one fixed but just live with this one). I was doing stainless so my choices were limited, and I sure can't afford a Sub Zero. At least I have a Viking stove! We've carted that baby house to house whenever we move.....although this time it's getting left behind, we're getting too old to move it ourselves anymore.

                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: gordeaux

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sorry to hear about all of the problems you've had with your KA. Ours is 2+ years old and it's worked fine. But I deliberately bought one of the least expensive KAs (about $700 on sale) because I just cannot see paying for most of the bells & whistles on the expensive models. And, I almost always use the energy-saving, no dry feature, since it seems wasteful to use energy when evaporation will take care of drying within a few hours. As was the case with my last KA (which also had that feature), I run the machine after dinner, empty it in the morning, and place any items that are still wet (typically just plastic containers that were on the top shelf) in the dish drainer to dry during the day. Indeed, one of the main reasons that I bought the KA was that it (and Bosch) were among the few DWs that offered the energy-saving no-dry feature.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: masha

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sorry to hear about the KA troubles. We bought one that was also around $700 on sale. DH would not even entertain the idea of buying a more expensive dishwasher. He's rather save the money and put it towards something else. Hopefully we won't have board issues like those mentioned!

                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: masha

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm ok with the KA lemon we got. I chalk it up to a "live and learn" life experience. It was our first dishwasher that we actually purchased ourselves, and we probably paid about 300 more than a basic KA model. Just hope this helps someone in making an informed decision. The dishwasher and fridge we didn't research too much. For the fridge, I knew what I wanted (french door, no water/ice in the door, ice maker in freezer) and that was about it. For the dishwasher, I knew I wanted an american model with a food grinder, a stainless tub for evaporative drying, control board on front, and adjustable shelf. We both figured KA was a respectable brand, and found a sale that made these two appliances extremely attractive. I did, mention the flimsy feeling drawers on the fridge to the better half, and MIL, but they both said that the shelves would get more solid when they were filled and had more weight which sounded plausible.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Live and learn. They both still work, but we could have done better for cheaper, I think.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: gordeaux

                                                                                                                                                                                                        I didn't know you could get an ice maker IN the freezer but not in the door, DUHHH! My bad, I've only bought a few in my lifetime, the two houses we bought used came with whatever......I only bought for our two houses we had built. At least now the ice cube trays are plastic and not metal like with my first fridge. But I hate when I forget to fill them up, or have company and have to start making cubes a few days ahead. I really have to get out more!

                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: gordeaux

                                                                                                                                                                                                          We bought a KA dishwasher with the same description you provided. Six months in it is working just fine. (knock on wood)

                                                                                                                                                                                                2. Frankly, I've come to believe that regardless of how much research you do, buying any major appliance of ANY brand boils down to a total crap shoot. It seems like every single brand has an almost 50/50 split of "I LOVE IT"/"IT'S A PIECE OF GARBAGE" reviews/experiences.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think that all you can really do is select your make/model based on the features & price you want, close your eyes, & bite the bullet. It's like the lottery.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  9 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: mikie

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yes, I bought a dishwasher last month. After spending days going through all the reviews I came to the conclusion that there are people who hate every dishwasher on the market and there is no consensus.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        My two cents:

                                                                                                                                                                                                        I moved into a place with a Bosch dishwasher which was the biggest piece of junk I've ever used. I replaced it with a GE Profile dishwasher which is absolutely fantastic.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: calumin

                                                                                                                                                                                                          I found this site originally whilst looking for reviews and hadn't realised the original post was 2009. I have discovered like calumin that you can find good and bad reviews for every company and on that basis I cancelled my order for my Kuppersbusch appliances. They are being marketed here as upmarket from Miele.(and priced likewise) and am going with the Whirlpool intergrated ovens and dishwasher from Ikea. The dishwasher is less than half the price and also comes with a full 5 year warranty (Whirlpool's own, not Ikea). It fits my criteria of being quiet at 43db and as a bonus has a sensor for small loads, which will work well in this house with one and half loads most days. I am also buying their ovens from Ikea, not half the price but nearly. I had my heart set on a white induction hob and Ikea/Whirlpool don't do one so I am still having to spend £££s on one of those. So three wins on price for Whirlpool and one lose on the hob. I have saved about £1,000 (about $1,600) in total. Wish me luck.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      2. re: Bacardi1

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Based on your and other's opinions, our budget and repairman, we crossed our fingers and got a Whirlpool. It has most of the features we want, mainly a hot water heater and sani rinse, and not others like soft food dispenser and rinse and hold. Since I've been having to rinse all my dishes before washing them for the past 12 years (GE Profile, yuck) and I suspect the problem with it was more the distance from the hot water heater than the machine itself, I don't mind the rinsing. The new one takes the lipstick off the glasses--yay! So far, so good. I will probably invest in a moisture alarm, however, since we had to have our kitchen island completely torn apart and rebuilt due to an undiscovered leak, hence mold, hence just more fun than I ever want to imagine over the holidays again! It was a very tight squeeze getting it in the opening--more insulation these days? And it's really quiet, much nicer than the old GE.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: blaireso

                                                                                                                                                                                                          You really shouldn't have to rinse the dishes before washing. I have Whirlpools (2 of them) and things come out pretty clean without pre-rinsing. I only knock off the really big chunks.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: johnb

                                                                                                                                                                                                            I agree. In fact, he instrutions that came with our new Kenmore specifically state that it's a waste of time, water, & energy to pre-rinse items before placing them in the dishwasher. Scraping only is the recommended prep.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        2. re: Bacardi1

                                                                                                                                                                                                          I totally agree! Before we got the new Whirlpool I probably spent about 6 hours reading this thread and came to the same conclusion. Close your eyes and throw a dart!

                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: Bacardi1

                                                                                                                                                                                                            The right comment at the right time (well, meaning I read it at the right time, a year after you posted). I'm going to just get this and cross my fingers: LG LDS5540ST

                                                                                                                                                                                                            Please don't tell me LG is awful. I don't want to know. ;-)

                                                                                                                                                                                                          2. Had a Kenmore for 15 years and wore it out. I was very pleased with it and, therefore, bought a Kenmore Elite two weeks ago and have been using it for a week. No problems with it, and it does a great job, but like most new dishwashers (I think), the cycles take longer due to the energy saving devices that are a part of the way they are made. As you look around at diswashers, you will see that they largely look alike, metal and stainless being the major difference, along with the number of options.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            14 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: AshenLady

                                                                                                                                                                                                              My husband, who was an audio electronics technician, firmly believed that everything is made in one giant factory somewhere in China. They all looked the same inside, he said.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: coll

                                                                                                                                                                                                                Well, the factory is not in China yet, but yeah he's right -- they are all pretty much the same inside. When you pay more you are paying for dodads like more buttons, better looks, baskets with more little thingies, and maybe extra insulation so it will be a little less noisy, but in terms of the working parts they're all pretty much the same. That's why it really only makes sense to pay more is if you value the dodads, because actual performance washing your dishes won't really change much.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Caveat emptor.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: johnb

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  We plan to move in 3-5 years, and with home prices in our area so low I wasn't about to spend a lot of money for a dw. So we looked in the moderate price range models. Found a Whirlpool on sale, about $400, that does everything we need and it's such a much better performer than our old GE Profile! It's very quiet, has hot water and sanitize cycles, you can turn off the heated dry, has nice selection of cycles and the filter is easily accessed. No food disposer, wish I'd gotten that but so far a quick rinse has proved adequate. IMHO the new models pretty much do all you need even in the lower price range. If your home is still worth money and you're looking at selling and a high end dw would help with resale, be my guest. In Las Vegas, forgeddaboutit.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: blaireso

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I agree with your approach. I would say, though, that a new GE or just about any other make would probably also be very good. I myself have two $400 Whirlpools and I'm generally pleased with them, even though I did have to replace one when the board went out (very expensive repair). We also just bought a beach house in Florida that has a comparable Maytag, so we'll see about that one.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sorry about Las Vegas. OTOH, maybe things will improve -- who knows?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: johnb

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Our GE Profile sucked from the day we moved in to a new construction house. I assumed for years that it was due to the distance from the hot water heater, but this new Whirlpool (cost about $400) works beautifully. So I now believe that the dishwasher just wasn't very good. Sorry I can't recommend GE Profiles, but the Whirlpool was cheaper and turns out it's a LOT better!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: blaireso

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm glad of course that you are happy with your DW. I don't think it's valid to compare an old one with a new one however, since designs have improved and the old one may need adjustment.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I checked Consumers Report's latest DW ratings, and filtered them to include only GE and Whirlpool DW's under $520 -- best I could do with their little slider. 14 came up. The top 6 (all similar) were GE's and they got ratings at 71 and 69 (scale of 100). Next 2 were Whirlpools (again similar) at 63, then some GE's at 58 and finally some Whirlpools at 35.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Bottom line appears to be that GE wins. Take it FWIW.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: johnb

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Johnb, I also did hours of research and after looking at all the models available in our area, selected one which unfortunately was out of stock. On to Plan B. Check the sales and throw the dice! I filtered out GEs because I loathed (is there a stronger word?) our GE Profile for so long. Not averse to GE in general, just that our dishwasher was either a lemon or missing that little je ne sais quois that actually cleaned dishes. For the price, I'm very happy with the Whirlpool and would buy it again.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: blaireso

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            You are perfectly entitled of course, but above you spoke of your bad experience with GE and immediately thereafter said you can't recommend them, which does suggest you are a bit averse to them in general. I was only pointing out that experience varies and any brand is found to be good by some and bad by some, so nobody should really pay much heed to any particular opinion, a point which I think we have all agreed upon upthread anyway. I would reiterate, tho, that what that means is all the research that we do (me too) is probably for naught, and as has also been pointed out upthread, picking the "best" appliance to buy is mostly a crapshoot.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Perhaps the takeaway is that there are no good or bad brands, just randomly good/bad specific examples. Try not to buy one made on Monday??

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: blaireso

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Thank you for a liberating sub-thread. I'm going to just go ahead and buy one and cross my fingers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              2. re: AshenLady

                                                                                                                                                                                                                We recently remodeled our kitchen and our new dishwasher is also a Kenmore Elite. It's been 20 years since we've had to buy a dishwasher and we did a lot of research. Love the Elite, compared to our old dishwasher, it is quiet and gets the dishes much cleaner. The cycle does take a lot longer as mentioned above, several hours, but we usually run it overnight.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: Michelle

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  My Whirlpool has an "overnight cycle" which sort of shocked me, it takes 7 hours, omg. But, it definitely cleans well. Most cycles take 2 hours, sometimes more if you select hot water or heated dry. We don't bother, so far it handles everything without them--and our kitchen is at the opposite end of the house from the water heater, a major issue with our old GE Profile. New models are pretty darned good, I gotta say. Keep my fingers crossed that it stays that way!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: blaireso

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I use the extra hot water wash and sanitation options and believe it helps -- in fact I've experimented with not using any detergent at all and the dishes still come out very clean. Personally I like the idea of sanitizing things. I never use heated dry -- the dishes dry themselves pretty well after being heated super hot in the sanitation phase.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: johnb

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I opted for the sanitation and hot water wash because I put all dishes, cutting boards, etc. that come into contact with raw protein on those cycles. Great features that I appreciate when needed. I'm still experimenting on finding the limitations of the various cycles without adding the extra bump of hot water. The manual doesn't really give me detailed information as to how hot a "normal" cycle is. I struggled with all the choices out there, whether to upgrade to a KA or Bosch, deal with Sears for the next decade, etc. After reading this blog, among others, I came to the conclusion that others have mentioned, it's a crapshoot. We read and read, checked the sales, closed our eyes and threw the dart. So far, so good.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              3. Has anyone bought a Bosch Ascenta? Our KA dishwasher is about to die (it's 14 years old and was there when we bought the house).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                I don't want to spend a fortune and the Bosch Ascenta gets good reviews from Consumer Reports. The one negative seems to be the configuration of the racks/space. That could be a huge problem...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                7 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: valerie

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  We bought a Bosch over a year ago, and then we sold our house. While we used it (I don't remember the model, sorry) it performed well. I wish I had it here. The dealer advised us what detergent to use, and we did. The interior was not as roomy as our old KA, but wow! the dishes came out spotless. I'd buy another Bosch if I had to replace the present dishwasher, which is performing OK.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: valerie

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I bought one and it's the best dishwasher I have ever owned. There was a lot of discussion about the silverware racks, but it's not a big deal. Mine holds each utensil upright and they all get cleaned perfectly. The one thing that has made the biggest difference is using the dishwashing detergent they recommended. Finish Quantam capsules... never any streaks on anything. Also the dishwasher is super quiet.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Regarding dishwasher detergent, can't remember where I read this, but apparently dishwasher detergent can get old very fast and it's an item that you shouldn't "stock pile".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: Macladybug

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Macladybug,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      When I replaced the DW in my house, I was delighted to find that Bosch has stolen Miele's cutlery rack. It's an extra (thin) top rack in which cutlery is laid on it's side, as in many cutlery storage boxes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      It's what I like best about my Miele, and was thrilled to see it in Bosch, because I prefer Bosch's performance.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Finish Quantum is fantastic, but don't make a habit of putting tri-ply or any clad cookware with aluminum in it, because it WILL eat away the aluminum.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: DuffyH

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks for the tip. I never put my All-Clad in the dishwasher. Had them for 17 years now and they still look brand new. No cast iron and of course no knives in the dishwasher either.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Gave my mom some All-Clad and a few wusthof classic knives a few years ago. She just to me she puts them all in her dishwasher regularly. Swears they are fine. Augh!! She's killing me.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: Macladybug

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Well, if she's using regular detergent, they probably are fine. :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          EDIT - Then again, the heat from drying may cause problems with her knife handles...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: DuffyH

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I'm not buying her any more of them. So far they look fine but I'm sure the handles are taking a beating. Mom is too stubborn to change.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      2. re: Macladybug

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        We ended up getting a Bosch. It was not the top of the line, more like middle of the road, since, as I had said, we didn't want to spend a fortune since we are talking about re-doing our kitchen (well, I am talking about it and my husband tries not to listen!).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        We use those Finish tabs and I have to say, not only is the dishwasher unbelievably quiet, but the dishes get super clean. Ours does not have the 3rd top row cutlery rack, just a regular old basket.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The one thing ours doesn't have is a short cycle and the regular cycle takes 2 hours. When we had narrowed it down to 2 models, one with a short cycle and one without, they were side by side in the store and I realized that the one with the short cycle had a much smaller top rack for whatever reason. We run the dishwasher every night and that top rack is always full (usually with kids cups, plates, bowls, etc). So in the end, we went with the one with the larger top rack. Glad we did as the other one would have not worked well for us.