476657 Sun Jan 06 10:11:56 -0800 2008 3 41 Cookware 0 3266726 Allright - I'm gonna introduce a twist here, my beloved Wusthoffs are sharpened in the Japanese style and have been for 20 years.... I bought them for a Japanese cooking job I had when I was 19 - my head chef taught me how to 're-edge' them by placing a good whetstone ( coarse to start then medium/fine) on the center divider of a kitchen sink and run a thin stream of water on to the stone (place a kitchen towel under the stone) while holding the knife at the correct angle and 'slicing' in a long arc either towards or away from you depending on which side you want to have the 'edge'. (you'll have to use some pressure for sure to re-edge) I have been EXTREMELY happy with my Wusthoff 8 inch chef and use it 90% of the time - again for 20 years - and I expect to pass it to my grandkids. I touch it up with a diamond rod and it will shave like a straight razor. I'd recommend whichever way you like your knives that you become friends with your local sushi/Japanese chef and ask for a lesson on sharpening - it isn't very difficult and you won't have to send your knives away! I've attached photos and you will see the 'flat side' and the 'edged' side and my trusty $10 diamond rod - happy sharpening! Sun Jan 06 10:11:56 -0800 2008 22477 jbyoga 1 3275633 I don't know what a diamond rod has to do with Japanese style sharpening. Japanese sharpening doesn't use any type of steeling. Normal steeling with a steel rod for western style edges is a honing process, not a sharpening process. It straightens the edge that has rolled over or warped. The harder Japanese steels don't fold as quickly, so Japanese never developed a steeling or honing/stropping technique to keep the edge sharp as the knife was being used. Instead, each chef would use the stones daily. A diamond rod will remove metal, unlike a steel rod. The problem with ceramic and diamond rods is that the contact area is so small, that it's difficult to maintain a consistent angle across the whole stroke, and the edge alignment really matters if you're sharpening rather than honing. I do sharpen my Henckels and Forschner/Victroninox knives "Japanese style" but I own a set of CMT diamond 8" stones (coarse, fine, x-fine) just for them. It is possible to use the standard Japanese stone set (also 3 grades), but the diamond works faster, and I'm not as concerned with taking off steel as I am on my Hattori and Al Mar knives. I also cover with water, even though it isn't really necessary, since there's no loose grit other than the metal. But I like the feel of the wet contact, as I have gotten used to the Japanese stones. I can also use the diamond stones as flatteners for the Japanese stones. I really recommend the sharpening video from Korin: http://www.korin.com/knives/knife_sharpening.php Or better yet, the two DVD's (basic and advanced) from Murray Carter: http://cartercutleryproducts.com/product.sc?categoryId=8&productId=21 ps - from your pictures, I would say that you have never "thinned" your knives - something that Carter highly recommends. I've found a big difference with my german steel by thinning the flat areas coming to the edge. The edge forms quicker and lasts longer, much like my Japanese knives. They still roll, and I still use a steel to hone them - that's a property of the Solingen steel vs. VG-10 as much as it is of their thinness. Tue Jan 08 17:52:35 -0800 2008 3266726 10312 applehome 2 3275889 I use the diamond rod for touch ups.. It isn't really a steel I suppose....just another tool for sharpening - although I'll use it on the 'flat side' to straighten the edge after sharpening. have the angle committed to memory so I get fairly consistent results whether I use a rod or stone..I've never had any sort of issue with the knives dulling quickly - the thinning technique sounds interesting tho - Tue Jan 08 19:30:32 -0800 2008 3275633 22477 jbyoga 1 3349921 I received an email from someone wanting more info on this issue. I answered them to the best of my ability, but felt that the question belonged here - I have no problems with emails for private matters, but if it's part of the discussion it belongs to everyone. So here's the q&a: Hello, saw your posting on Chow and got intrigued by it. I own a few German knives that I am slowly phasing out in favor of Japanese. I own one good Japanese knife and would acquire more over time, but I thought that learning to re-shape Western style knives might be a good learning experience in hand sharpening technique. So, I am considering converting a couple of knives (chefs and a slicer) into gyuto and sujihiki. Since you have some experience in this field, how much steel do you need to remove to re-shape the bevel? Would most of work be done on rough grain stone? Would you have to keep the blade flat on the stone to give it a wedge shape? Have you tried to sharpen Western style knives asymmetrically (80/20)? Is there an advantage to that? I am thinking about investing into a set of 220, 700, 1200, 2500, 8000 large Japanese water stones, but diamond stones sound good too. Can you sharpen Japanese knives with the diamond stones? I would appreciate your advice. Thank you in advance. ______________________________________________________________________________ I am not converting German knives to Japanese - neither the shape nor the edge. I am simply sharpening them by hand, in the same manner as with my Japanese knives. The difference is that I use my diamond stones, rather than the standard set of Japanese whetstones. I also thin the flat on both sides - the same as Japanese knife sharpeners will thin the metal below the shinogi line, so that the main edge has a more gradual taper, which should make it stay sharper, longer. But that is a far, far cry from a true Japanese blade which has a slightly concave backside brought to a very small back edge, with the main edge on one side only. Creating that out of a flat western blade would be very difficult indeed - probably impossible. Changing shape (chef into gyuto) is probably even more difficult and possibly dangerous. All knives are designed, balanced and tested by presumably knowledgeable people, either by hand or machine. Making one shape into another while not taking into account the changes needed to the tang and handle could yield strange results. I think that you're much better off testing knives in your hands at a good shop (or by mail) and choosing one that really feels good to you. Here is Korin's site, which has nice cross-sectional diagrams of both Japanese and Euro blades: http://www.korin.com/knives/knife_sharpening.php I highly recommend the DVD's from either Korin or Murray Carter - I think Carter's are more explicit and most people will get more out of them, but they're both good starting points. Carter's site: http://cartercutlery.com/ I would start with no more then 3 stones - a coarse (about 100-220), a medium (1200-1800) and a fine (5000-8000). If you have real Japanese style knives (not just the Japanese made Euro style knives like the Chefs and Santokus made by Global and Shun, but real Japanese style knives (Yanagi-ba, Wabocho, Nakiri-bocho, Funayuki-bocho, deba-bocho), you definitely need a set of Japanese stones (also a flattener, as the stones will develop dips). Using diamond stones on the Japanese steel will afford you much less control - the same techniques that are discussed by the experts on the DVD's will not be optimal for such hard stones that work differently, mainly in that they do not form a slurry, which does much of the grinding work. And while hand-sharpening should avoid the pitfalls of ruining the tempering on the steel, it might just be possible, by using diamonds, to actually do harm to the brittle, hard steel. You can most definitely use the Japanese stones on western knives. But diamond stones do work faster, and I just feel like there are far less control issues with the flat western knives, so I might as well use diamond stones. The western metals (Solingen steel, 440B/C, ATS-34) are usually somewhat softer than the VG-10 and super-white steel used for the core of Japanese blades, but I don't think that's as important as the basic shape. Being flat, they're basically easier to work with - you just go from one side to the other and you don't have to worry about folding the edge wrong and having to re-flatten the back side. Good diamond stones cost a lot - cheap ones aren't worth bothering with (there's not enough grit on them to do any good). So I would definitely start with the Japanese stones and depending on how many western style knives you have left after a time, get into diamond stones later. I am posting this on CH. I feel that generic questions, such as this one, are best shared on the site - even if it interests only one other person, well... that's one person that didn't get helped by a private email. Plus others may have comments to add - which will help us both. I hope this helps. Wed Jan 30 15:56:22 -0800 2008 3266726 10312 applehome