475499 Wed Jan 02 14:14:21 -0800 2008 19 34 Wine 0 3254470 Last night I drank a 1999 Taurino "Notarpanaro" Salento Rosso at a restaurant. Didn't know much about it, just knew that it was priced right, and that I was curious to try something different. The wine, which the label says is a blend of negroamaro and malvasia nera, was - well, unusual, I suppose is one word. Here's my TN - "Very extracted and oxidized, almost like sherry on the nose. Couldn't figure out if bottle had gone bad or if this was the intended style. The raisiny, overextracted quality followed on the palate as well and was overwhelming and out of balance." Indeed, at the restaurant I puzzled over whether to send the wine back, though because it wasn't obviously corked, and because I didn't know the wine enough to know whether this was how it was SUPPOSED to taste, I decided not to. After getting home, I looked up reviews in Parker and Spectator - Parker notes the "controversial late harvest Amarone-like notes along with a touch of volatile acidity" but ultimately praises it as an "authentic, rustic southern Italian red made in an old style." Spectator also called it "slightly raisiny" and called it "Rather old styled but a good drink." (Parker 87 pts, Spectator 81 pts for those keeping score). I can't tell if the oxidized, madeirized qualities I noted were present when these ratings were done (which was 3 yrs ago) or developed with age, though there are similar comments in several of the more recent tasting notes on cellatracker. So - was the wine flawed, or was this just the "old-school" style? Would it have been appropriate to send it back? (I don't think wine should be sent back just because you don't like it). Wed Jan 02 14:14:21 -0800 2008 35525 Frodnesor 1 3255183 FLAW Wed Jan 02 17:34:53 -0800 2008 3254470 28122 zin1953 2 3257627 I agree. With respect to this wine, old style = rustic/unpolished, not madeirized. Thu Jan 03 12:17:16 -0800 2008 3255183 10520 carswell 1 3255310 "I don't think wine should be sent back just because you don't like it." Not really. Assuming a) there is a sommelier, and b) the sommelier is not a shmock, and c) I am not in Las Vegas ( which overrides all of the above), I ask said sommelier to taste with me. Almost always sommelier and I both agree, the thing goes back. Wed Jan 02 18:14:57 -0800 2008 3254470 28703 RicRios 1 3255477 With "raisinated" grapes, there can be some light elements of what might pass for oxidation. However, I agree with both Jason and RicRios, that this was a flaw. I'd have asked for a second opinon too. I'm with you on trying wines, that are unfamiliar to me, when dining out. Unfortunately, that often leads to a situation, as you describe - is it my tastes, or is this a bad bottle? If I'm hosting a group, and my "cred" is on the line, I will go with what I know, just so this does not occur. If it's just me, and the wife, I always venture outside my comfort envelope, as much as I can. A good server should know the wines from their list, and should have tasted most of them. Yes, one has to depend on their honesty, but they should come forward and say, "you're right. This puppy got cooked," and offer a replacement. Unfortunately, chances are good that all other bottles suffered the same fate, unlike a "corked" bottle. Hunt Wed Jan 02 19:14:58 -0800 2008 3254470 11329 Bill Hunt 1 3257429 In the case of wines from Taurino, I would say that it is both. Which one is a matter of perspective Thu Jan 03 11:38:33 -0800 2008 3254470 13690 Sam B 2 3258377 Madeirization is ALWAYS a flaw. Taurino's wines are not maderized. Stylistically, they may be distinctive, but it is NOT due to madeirization. Thu Jan 03 15:10:46 -0800 2008 3257429 28122 zin1953 3 3259649 I was referring to the house style at Taurino. I agree that this wine was not maderized, as it is properly a term applied to white wines that have oxidized to the point of browning (and the resulting aromatics and flavors). Notarpanaro is obviously not white, and frodnesor made no mention of the color of the wine. The wine was however almost certainly oxidized, and this in not always a flaw. No need to shout by the way Thu Jan 03 23:01:57 -0800 2008 3258377 13690 Sam B 4 3260536 Sam, the name of this thread is "Madeirization: Flaw or Style?" In your originial post, you write, " I would say that it is both" Which one is a matter of perspective." This clearly means you thought that not only the wine in question (a 1999 Taurino "Notarpanaro" Salento Rosso) was indeed madeirized, but that you also thought it was intentional. Oxidation is, of course, a very different problem than madeirization. While it is true that some wines may have a slightly higher level of oxidation than others, but if a wine is truly oxidized, that too is a flaw and not a style. When a wine is madeirized -- whether red or white -- it is generally subjected to some form of heat (typically by way of poor storage, rather than intentionally warmed in an estufa as with Madeira). This will result in several problems, the most notable of which is a thicker texture, and slightly carmelized character. The wine will generally be oxidized as well, but a wine may be oxidized without being madeirized . . . and generally is. Thus, oxidation and madeirization are two different things. As far as shouting is concerned, the poor software of this site does not permit italics and/or underlining. Thus I use an occasional word in all capital letters IN LIEU OF itialics for emphasis. Were I shouting, the entire post would be in all caps. That style choice I said, my intention was certainly not to shout, and if your ears/eyes objected, I apologize. Jason Fri Jan 04 08:55:02 -0800 2008 3259649 28122 zin1953 5 3260790 All of which brings me back to my original point - that I'm not sure whether or not calling the wine "madeirized" is necessarily accurate, and whether my reaction to the wine was to the winemaking style, to a winemaking flaw, or to a flaw created by a storage issue. My reference to madeirization was the result of post hoc research into the wine and into the descriptor, which I had seen before and seemed to match. But ignore the particular descriptor and look instead at the general tasting note - and, in particular, consider my wife's immediate reaction (she has a much better palate but a smaller wine vocabulary than me - you know what they say about a little knowledge being a dangerous thing), which was "This smells like a sherry." Color was not notably brown. I'd also note that several cellartracker tasting notes (particularly more recent ones) reference similar experiences, which would seem to indicate against a storage issue. Fri Jan 04 10:01:53 -0800 2008 3260536 35525 Frodnesor 5 3260940 My apologies for the poorly structured response. What I meant was that I believe that the original poster was confusing oxidation for maderization but didn't want to get into a debate with you about the difference between the two. It further means that in my experience, this highly oxidative style is consistent across the wines of Taurino from Rosato to Patriglione. I would describe this a typical, rather than intentional. Fri Jan 04 10:39:38 -0800 2008 3260536 13690 Sam B 4 3263124 >>>>No need to shout by the way. Sam B, Perhaps you are not familiar with Jason's (zin1953's) posts, but his writing on the wine board is among the most passionate, well-informed and expressive. I'd urge you to read more of his posts and more CH threads in general to get an accurate read on his shouting level compared to others. What I like about Jason's writing, including his judicious use of CAPS (and this is just one small thing), is that you can actually hear him talking in his posts. So YAY Jason! Yay PASSION! Fri Jan 04 22:56:10 -0800 2008 3259649 18222 maria lorraine 3 3261769 Jason and others, I'm not understanding this and I'd like to. If the Taurino wine is not madeirized, then what is it (in the winemaking, in the storage, etc.) that gives it its sherry-like characteristic? I understand that wines/wineries can have a distinctive style (Savennieres from the Loire with its intentional oxidation, let's say a contributatory oxidation, is one good example), but what is it that Taurino does? Thanks. Maria Fri Jan 04 13:58:27 -0800 2008 3258377 18222 maria lorraine 4 3263146 The word “oxidized” is a fairly precise term – it’s broadly understood, identifiable, and quantifiable. Maderized is a descriptor, rather inexact, and in general usage indicates a wine that is oxidized to a very high degree. Because Madeira is heated during the production process, it is perhaps natural to assume that a wine that is described as maderized has been heat damaged, but this is not necessarily the case. To wit… Emile Peynaud - from "Knowing and Making Wine" - “Another series of descriptions concerns the aerated state and the degree of oxidation. A wine that has just been handled and aerated is tired…Longer contact with the air makes a wine deflated, worn, flat , stewed, that is to say it has the tasted of chewed or crushed fruit…Some young wines sensitive to exposure, showing some oxidation damage get the cooked taste of overripe grapes or raisins: this is called casse. Even longer exposure to the air makes a wine oxidized, or in extreme cases maderized, or rancio… A white wine that gets too old goes into the maderized stage.” Maynard Amerine and Vernon Singleton – from "Wine" - “Oxidation reactions in wine are of more than one kind, and produce different types and degrees of flavor and compositional change. The major overall flavor change has been described as maderized, rancio, sherry-like, and plain oxidized wine. Nutty, raisin-like, or caramel flavors may be associated with the maderized flavor, but are not the same. Rancio is reserved by some for the maderized flavor when it arises in old red wines aged in the presence of air. Maderization, per se, may be produced by prolonged aging, or by heating” Since I was not there, tasting that very bottle of wine, I can’t say whether it was oxidized to the point of maderization (or rancio), cooked, both, or neither. What I do know is that I have tasted many wines produced at Taurino, and they more often than not have had a distinctive, oxidized character, and the descriptors offered by frodnesor are consistent with a wine with a fairly high degree of oxidation. Whatever the case, I would not refer to it as maderized. I in no way meant to suggest that this character was the result of some intentional process, but rather the result of a rather casual approach to winemaking as compared to a modern, new world paradigm – porous fermentation vessels, aging tanks that allow for the introduction of oxygen, insufficient levels of SO2 to prevent oxidation, failing to top or blanket tanks and barrels, etc. Having said that, I don’t think that Cosimo Taurino felt his wines were generally flawed, and I too would hesitate to say that. I have enjoyed more bottles of Taurino’s Salice Salentino than I care to admit, and I rue the day that Riccardo Cotarella convinces them to invest in some Merlot vines and a little French oak. Fri Jan 04 23:12:32 -0800 2008 3261769 13690 Sam B 5 3263184 Thank you for your detailed response. I appreciate the Peynaud and Amerine references. The Cotarella line is great! Drank Salice Salentino also during my college days long ago when I was poor, and it served me well. Still wouldn't pass it by if it accompanied a slice of pizza. Didn't notice the oxidation then and don't know if it was the wine or me. Fri Jan 04 23:33:49 -0800 2008 3263146 18222 maria lorraine 6 3281009 FWIW, I have drunk a lot of Dr. Taurino's Salice Salentino and his Notarpanaro, and while I can certainly see the "rustic-ness" in these wines, I cannot recall ever having a "bad" bottle (i.e.: oxydized and/or maderized). Obviously this is my own experience; others will certainly have their own. Thu Jan 10 09:13:40 -0800 2008 3263184 28122 zin1953 5 3263654 *The word “oxidized” is a fairly precise term – it’s broadly understood, identifiable, and quantifiable. Maderized is a descriptor, rather inexact, and in general usage indicates a wine that is oxidized to a very high degree.* That is the sense in which I was using "madeirized." I have had plenty of cooked wines (being in South Florida, high heat storage conditions are a constant problem) and that was not the issue here. Sat Jan 05 08:07:03 -0800 2008 3263146 35525 Frodnesor 1 3257850 I've read quite a few tasting notes on this wine. Many have pointed out the sherry-like flavors of the wine. Others have touted its berry notes and Amarone flavors when it was drunk a few years ago. Recent tasting notes have said the wine has died; it's way past its prime. Several comments were that the '99 was quite different (not as good) as other vintages. So, my current guess, is that the wine was severely oxidized (to the point of Madeirization) as a result of winemaking errors, and then died another death from regular aging. The volatile acidity was yet another error. Please trust your instincts a bit more. If the wine is not to your liking and you suspect the wine is off or oxidized, speak up. You may not know the exact flaw, but ask someone at the restaurant who does. So [scrunching up face in confusion], how could Parker give an 87 to a wine with VA? Thu Jan 03 12:59:17 -0800 2008 3254470 18222 maria lorraine 2 3258082 It is an unusual review and, it should be noted, atypical of Parker (at least for those who believe him responsible for the "Parkerization" of old-school styles of wines). And the review was by RP himself, not one of the other writers. Although it doesn't show up online, the comments refer to a "question mark" by the score, so apparently even he was puzzled. As for those who have suggested a consult with the sommelier - you're probably right. But while this is a place with an interesting selection of wines, particularly Italian, it's a semi-casual place and I've never seen or been introduced to anyone who describes themself as the sommelier. I anticipated that I'd get someone who'd give a not-quite-so-knowledgeable "That's how it's supposed to be" type of response, and so didn't bother. In case anyone's curious about the restaurant: http://www.sardinia-ristorante.com/ Thu Jan 03 13:49:09 -0800 2008 3257850 35525 Frodnesor 1 3501526 Having just tried a 2001 Notarpanaro this past weekend, I wanted to revive this thread. I didn't get any of the madeirization in the 2001 that sounds like a hallmark of the 1999. Definitely on the rustic side, yet significantly more refined than I've come to expect in a Puglian wine, and certainly with none of the overtly raisiny characteristic described above. Has anyone else tried the '01? I found it really enjoyable, and a pretty solid value. (Incidentally, when I tried Taurino's '97 Patriglione last year, it tasted unbelievably like an amarone. Most structure I've ever encountered in a wine from the heel.) Mon Mar 17 13:06:06 -0700 2008 3254470 11344 finlero