2nd avenue deli has reopened -
According to kosher-ny.com:
Second Avenue Deli is now open. Those of you craving p'tcha, grievenes, real gefilte -- the time is now. The 2nd Avenue Deli, located at 162 East 33rd Street, between Lexington Avenue and Third Avenue, is now open 24/7 and under the supervision of Rabbi Israel Steinberg.
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re: zkshrmn
Joe Berger
Dec 17, 2007 07:02 AM
zkshrmn, it's open Shabbos, and has no mashgiach temidi,
so anyone caring if it's Glatt or not, won't eat there anyway.
if you eat at Ben's Deli, you'll eat here, cause it's the same Rabbi.most NY area sourced Kosher meat is Glatt from it's point of origin,
so, it is what may happen in the Restaurant itself that is of concern.
that's why you drive down Queens Blvd or 108th St. in Rego Park
you'll see a dozen "Glatt Kosher" places that most Orthodox Jews
would never eat in, because the raw meat was purchased Glatt, but
you need to decide for yourself if the preparer is dependable or not.It should be noted that some places in Rego Park are closed Shabbat
and are under the Bukharian Vaad, which does not require a full time
mashgiach, so Orthodox Jews originally from Eastern Europe, eat there,
especially since many of the owners themselves are Shomer Shabbat. -
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re: rachelb99
If you trust Joe, then that would mean that the beef at 2nd avenue deli is all glatt. However, I don't believe that 2nd ave deli makes that claim. Joe's suggestion is merely an observation concerning the state of butchery in the New York area, not, I believe, the statement of someone involved in 2nd ave deli's operations.
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re: DeisCane
BS"D
Agriprocessors has a whole lot of beef that isn't glatt, as do all slaughterhouses. They've started selling some of it in limited retail packaging- you can find it at Trader Joe's, for instance. And its hechsher is Rabbi Zeilingold, a Lubavitcher who pretty much everyone considers reliable. So here's non-glatt under reliable hechsher, probably available in qreat quantity (since far more meat probably meets the criteria for nonglatt rather than glatt), and probably goes to the majority of nonglatt delis and other nonglatt food establishments. So if you could get reliable nonglatt meat less expensively than glatt, which would you choose? It probably depends upon whether you hold by glatt or not. Seeing as how glatt is a basic standard requirement, and nonglatt is a heter originally developed for impoverished individuals when animals were very expensive, most of the orthodox world holds by glatt now. Even glatt is a heter for Beis Yosef glatt, which requires perfectly smooth lungs, while regular glatt standards are not so high (Sephardim and some Ashkenazim require Beis Yosef). But if all one wants is a reliable minimal standard of kosher, or if one is in a situation where that's all he/she has, Rabbi Zeilingold's hechsher assures them of that. The question is whether under normal circumstances, one will use nonglatt.
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re: berel
Joe Berger
Dec 20, 2007 06:47 AM
we've discussed the issue of open Shabbos places on other threads, but there is a nitch of such gray area kosher keeping Jews that would eat at a open Shabbat vegetarian place (like Indian and Vegen) because all the customers and proprieters are "religious" about ingredient consistency and purity for their own not Jewish but vegetarian purposes, so they can be further relied upon to maintain standards even on a day the Mashgiach is least able to spot check.
however in a meat place, where the kosher aspect is of a more spiritual issue, not a practical one(non vegetarian), and the key kosher protein ingredients are the most expensive components one can easily cheat on(by using non kosher), such customers might be less inclined to trust an open Shabbat place. This might explain why you are more likely to see Skulcap wearing patrons in a Veggie Indian restaurant, then in Ben's Deli.
ganeden; thanks for elaborating on non-glatt kosher meat sector. I was led to believe that the vast meat processing capacity serving the NYC area would gladly take anything non-glatt for regular trayf use, or maybe Hallal, and not bother with non-glatt. smaller scale slaughter houses in other cities who cannot afford to be so picky, thus use non-glatt kosher meat more extensively.
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re: Joe Berger
BS"D
I'm sure it's true that anything that isn't glatt can be used for treif. But that's an expensive proposition. The shechita is kosher, the carcass is disemboweled and the hide removed, then the lungs are checked. That's several steps performed under rabbinical supervision, otherwise slowing down the "line". So when the shechita itself is faulty, the carcass can be removed, and maybe get picked up at that time by the nonkosher people. But otherwise, the rate gets limited by subsequent operations, so by the time the animal's lungs are checked, it's already taken up significant time under a hashgocha situation, costing the company money. Even nonglatt, if there's a market for it, guarantees the company a better margin than selling the meat for treif use. I don't know anything about hallal, whether meat slaughtered kosher can even be hallal, or at what step the Muslim authorities must step in to certify it. I do know that as a company, it's all about money, and maximizing return. If more money can be made selling nonglatt rather than treif, that's what they'll do.
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re: ganeden
While this is beyond the scope of this forum, I must correct Craig's characteriztion of non-glatt as a "heter originally developed for impoverished individuals." While ecomonic considerations did play a role in the views of certain poskim on this issue, primarily, the distinction is based on a disagreement spanning hundreds of years as to whether the presence of certain adhesions to the lungs renders the animal unkosher. Since the middle ages, non-glatt was the community standard in Europe and that remained the case in the United States until roughly 30 years ago, excepting Hasidim and many Hungarians, who had the tradition of requiring glatt. It is worth noting that before this shift in standards, R. Soloveitchik and R. Teitz provided personal certification for non-glatt slaughterhouses.
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re: Kosher Critic
BS"D
Thanks for the correction. I was under the understanding that it was a response to those people who had maybe a cow or 2, and slaughtering one was a big deal, and it would have been an extremely difficult loss for the family if the meat were found to be nonkosher. Obviously, if could not be used if easily removable, unperforated adhesions were considered unquestionably treif. Nor could the the current standard for most glatt.
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re: DeisCane
This meat is sold under the label "David's," though I have never seen it here in the NY region, probably owing to the fact that most strictly kosher markets around here are tied to the glatt standard. Maybe some of the markets where I don't shop for other reasons might carry David's. Deis, I am sticking to the 30 estimate because I am old enough to remember the non-glatt days but wouldn't be were 40 the case :) BTW, in my day (and it's not so far back), the Sherman kosher cafeteria at Brandeis only served non-glatt meat.
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